Traveller-digest    Saturday, November 15 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2100



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Compiled Sector Data Available
What fraction of the Roman Empire had citizenship
Re:  Imperial Marines (long)
Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
Imperila Marines  (was: Can we stop talking about Starship Troopers?)
re: Improved Terrapin
re: Improved Terrapin
Re: What fraction of the Roman Empire had citizenship
Re: Imperial Law and Stuff
re: Improved Terrapin
Re: MST3K
RE:Imperial Starship Troopers
Traveller:  The Movie
Re: Dune

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:47:47 -0500
From: "RSanders" <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

In a message dated 97-11-13 05:17:38 EST, you write:

<< It is currently saved as a Excel97 file, but if you ask me nice, I'll
save

 it down to whatever version you need.  It is, however, 2.5 MB in size
 (which can take a while at 33.6), so I'm hoping I'll only have to send
it
 once. (Be sure your ISP will accept it!)

 Let me know if you are interested!

 douglas

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

How fast can you send it?  ONLY PLEASE send it in Win95, excel v7.0 so I
can read it.
Thanks in advance.

Bob Sanders

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:11:57 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: What fraction of the Roman Empire had citizenship

I am planning on leaving everyone as a citizen, but I am going to give all
former members of the Imperial forces some significant benefits.  Before I
do so, I want to make sure that I do not outreach my historical analogue.

Does anyone know offhand what fraction of the populace were counted as
Roman citizens, at a time when the distinction was meaningful?

NB, my current feel is that the people who served in the Imperial forces
are know collectively as the Imperial Veterans, and they are self named the
Ivys.  The primary right is that of asking Imperial justice, and the
primary responsibility is not using that right unless absolutely needed, as
well as being ready and willing to be called up in time of need.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:10:08 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re:  Imperial Marines (long)

Jo_Grant wrote: 

> Subject: Imperial Starship Troopers
> What is the average Imperial Marine likely to wear? What is their > 
main role in shipboard life? Is it for initiating and repelling > 
boarding actions? If so, I think it unlikely they are going to be > 
going around in battle dress with plasma guns all the time. There > are 
lots of small places on ships.  Or is their main role for > securing 
select installations. Like, the ships pound the hell out of > a station, 
starport with their capital weapons, and the marines take > and hold 
them. The Army comes in later and garrisons it?  This would > imply more 
heavy weapons and armament.  However, odds are that the > majority of a 
marine's life is spent outside of combat or > near-combat situations. 
What are their _normal_ shipboard duites? 
>
>Are they the military police or is that kept separate?
>

As far as Imperial Marines are concerned, it depends on what the Marine 
Detachment is for.  Currently, US Marine serve aboard carriers and such, 
and deploy on Assault Ships, as well as serve guarding the US embassies 
around the world.  I think that translates very well to the Traveller 
Universe.

Marines at sea Marines wear regular uniforms (camouflaged according to 
the area in which they may be required to take action).  Marines serving 
as part of "ship's company" (primarily those on carriers) have 
responsibility for security.  That means that they are the defensive 
force for the ship in port and provide security for the aircraft and 
weapons of mass destruction (WMD or NUKES).  They are part of the ship's 
force and are there for the protection of the vessel.  That would 
include repelling boarders or being the boarding party (if that were 
possible nowadays).  Should they be taking part in security work, they 
would be wearing their battle dress (kevlar armor, helmets, weapon 
(loaded) etc.)when on duty, and as the threat condition dictates.

Marines assigned as an assault force have a different role.  They 
normally do not provide security for the ship (unless extraordinary 
circumstances dictate, and then only after the captain asks the 
commander of the forces ashore for assistance).  They have heavier 
weapons, and are primed for the assault.  Again, they do not wear armor, 
etc. unless they are actually getting ready to go ashore.  They also 
have with them in the assault craft and the hold the tanks and artillery 
that they will use for the assault...

Marines at embassies wear a variety of uniforms and serve various 
functions, but do have weapons and body armor should the need arise.

One of the of the things that really pissed off the sailors was that the 
Marines being carried as an assault force HAD NO REGULAR DUTIES during 
the times that they were at sea.  You can only clean your weapon so many 
times, check out your tank so often, work out so much, do so many 
correspondence courses, etc.  

Marines in ships company stand guard duty, provide the ready security 
force etc.  On board ship, where they are part of the ships company, 
they are the ships "police force" though that would not be the correct 
term.  They are the Security Force.  Carriers actually have a Navy 
police force and a criminal investigator assigned...(they are huge 
ships...)

Imperial Marines would have the same functions.  The ship's company 
Marines, the Security Force, would be schooled in shipboard combat, 
forced entry, Zero-G combat, etc.  They would have a squad (platoon?) or 
so of Battle Dress equipped Marines for the assault into the enemy ship, 
with another squad or so of lighter armored personnel for mop up 
operations (getting into those small areas).  Those on duty would be 
wearing appropriate protective armor/vacc suits as determined by the 
level of threat condition....  In port, they would be the security 
force.  

I envision that while traveling to the assault point, Marines would have 
holodeck kind of training facilities, programmed to mirror the 
environment that they would be entering.  They would be acclimatized to 
the world's climate by the time they arrived at the drop point through 
the use of adjustable climate controlled warfare training rooms.

Think of the fun Marines would have landing on a planet to protect the 
embassy or starport...lots of adventure hooks there...  Amber goes to 
Red and you are the force to go keep the peace (shades of Beiruit)...

Semper Fi!

Greg Smith

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:26:36 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> I was working on a rational system of law that classified crimes for "all"
> cultures. Think about how various crimes fit into this scheme...
> 
> Marc
> 
> THE CATEGORIES OF CRIME

SNIPOLA

One category that probably needs to be included (or exemplified within
the current scheme) are intellectual property law, very important in the
Vilani influenced Imperium.

These could be included in the Property crimes area, but this is a VERY
important segment of law to the Vilani.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:47:35 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

DustyLV769@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-11-11 23:46:09 EST, hdhale0@pop.uky.edu writes:
> 
> << Chance of being made: .000000000001 percent. >>
> 
> This is not necessarily true, folks...if we can come up with a good
> screenplay, someone will probably take an interest in it.  
> Independants make great movies all the time, on shoestring budgets.  

   True, but an independent couldn't make Traveller.  I say .0000etc.
percent chance, because let's face facts: name for me the number of RPGs
that have spawned theatrical productions.  While both D&D and Battletech did
rate short lived cartoons, that's as far as they went.

   No, the best we could responsibly hope for is that Traveller would
*influence* a maker of film, such that certain plot elements from the game
end up in one of their movies.  As people who started playing Traveller in
the early 80's get into positions of power in Hollywood (most of these
people are in their mid-30s), I'll think you'll see it happen more often.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:53:37 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Imperila Marines  (was: Can we stop talking about Starship Troopers?)

At 02:49 PM 11/14/97 +0000, you wrote:

>Obligatory traveller bit:
>Subject: Imperial Starship Troopers
>What is the average Imperial Marine likely to wear? What is their main role
>in shipboard life? Is it for initiating and repelling boarding actions? If
>so, I think it unlikely they are going to be going around in battle dress
>with plasma guns all the time. There are lots of small places on ships.
>Or is their main role for securing select installations. Like, the ships
>pound the hell out of a station, starport with their capital weapons, and
>the marines take and hold them. The Army comes in later and garrisons it?
>This would imply more heavy weapons and armament.

On duty, my Marines wear either shipboard jump suits (similar to Imperial
Navy togs) or casual uniforms appropriate to the climate and duties being
performed.

The main roles played by shipboard Marines are 1. Security,  2. Damage
control parties, and 3.  Gunnery (on certain vessels.)  So far as boarding
actions, these are rare in space combat, but all marines are trained just
in case.

In Milieu:0, most Marines are armed with the RF-Gauss found in Emperor's
Arsenal.  The plasma weapon is a support gun.

Since Marines are the Imperium's only dedicated ground force, you'll find
them outside Imperial Embassies and facilities, guarding the gates.  There
is a strong ceremonial role to be fulfilled, with drill teams and
exhibition units making the rounds.

In a planetary invasion, the Marines make the initial landing by drop
capsule, and secure a LZ for the follow-on forces (usually Army).  The Navy
and Marines need to clear a wide enough area to allow the Army to land
multiple shuttles and set up a logistics base for further action.

Note that the Marines are singularly unsuited for long duration combat.
They use power-hungry equipment and weapons with obscene rates of fire.
They need to be relived quickly, and it's inefficient to try to devote the
resources to resupply them, when a similar amount of lift could be used to
support many more soldiers.

>However, odds are that the majority of a marine's life is spent outside of
>combat or near-combat situations. What are their _normal_ shipboard duites?
>Are they the military police or is that kept separate?

If the real-world is any indication, they spend a great deal of time
cleaning things.  Opportunities for training are low aboard ship, so the
Marines probably use the down-time of jump to teach the technical skills
that young Marines need, both in formal classroom and informal learn on the
job settings.

Whether or not there is a separate Naval Police is dependant on wether the
Marines are as linked to the Navy as the USMC is to the US Navy.. IMHO, the
Marines act as the enforcers, doing shore patrol and the like.

All of this is my opinion, and comment is invited.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:32:26 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Improved Terrapin

Also - I can't tell if it has thermal masking; the signatures seem quite low
for a ship without masking...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 15:31:20 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Improved Terrapin

(Nice design by Mr. Berry removed)

One thing you might consider adding is a science-optimized sensor - possibly
even a really big one in a folding array, or at the very least a small one.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 16:30:34 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: What fraction of the Roman Empire had citizenship

>I am planning on leaving everyone as a citizen, but I am going to give all
>former members of the Imperial forces some significant benefits.  Before I
>do so, I want to make sure that I do not outreach my historical analogue.
>
>Does anyone know offhand what fraction of the populace were counted as
>Roman citizens, at a time when the distinction was meaningful?

Around 2-3% between 100 BC and 1 AD.  Augustus' reforms increased that
number dramatically, to about 5-6%.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: 14 Nov 1997 22:58:42 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Imperial Law and Stuff

>"Your Federal Service
>involves an unsupported combat jump onto Klendathu. You dont want to ?
>Thats a court martial offense and we're at war. Time for an abbreviated
>court martial (*bang*). You do ? OK"

Actually, Heinlein mentions in Starship Troopers that you can quite anytime
you're not in combat, even just before a jump.  The Federation just gets
"really sticky" about your franchise after that.

I'm currently discussing this book in class (naturally, with the movie just
out and the kids knowing that I like SF), so I've reread it several times in
the last fortnight.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:03:27 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Improved Terrapin

At 03:32 PM 11/14/97 -0800, Bruce wrote:
>
>Also - I can't tell if it has thermal masking; the signatures seem quite low
>for a ship without masking...

Good call! The Dark Star does come with one level of thermal masking..
hence the name.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:04:43 -0700
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: MST3K

On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:36:17 -0800
Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
>
>At 11:22 AM 11/13/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>P.S. Watch yourself ... I suspect the fanatical slave-players of the Oracle
>>of Capital/Core's gaming group will be after you now. Incoming!!!
>
>I recently acquired a .23cal two-barrelled derringer.  Right now, Only one
>chamber is usable due to corrosion.  This should be sufficient firepower to
>deal with the expected horde.


Dougie, _please_, *please*, _PLEASE_ don't take your life that way.  What
would your mailing list think!  Seriously reconsider.  I mean it.  I could
even try to find Jack's telephone number for you, it would be dignified
that way. <G> (Maybe I misunderstood--some other horde, hmmm, No.)

BTW, you had J.P. going for a moment with that Mystery Science Theatre 3000
schtick.  Then I explained to him that you *hadn't* figured out my post. You
accomplished little Mystery, junk Science, and mostly Theatre.  Yes, I must
give you credit for taking the Planetologist out of your bragline.  Of course,
I'm not surprised you would further attempt to compare yourself with the
true greatness of something you had no creative input to. :)

BTW, the last person to doubt J.P.'s existence started the great HIWG flame
war and as I warned him, J.P. has much more time to do e-mail than I do. :)
He suggested you take it to private e-mail at: sullivanjames@hotmail.com

I told him you couldn't stomach not talking in front of an audience (must
run in the family :) probably because it is less funny that way.

Oh yeah, you don't even rate between midterms now, just between programs.
[more LOL]

<PA call> Private no class D.E.Berry, report for Federation service!

(Hey List, sorry for this.  This guy bugs me.  He's nothing but a troll.)
[Oops there I go again, paraphrasing quotes for my own use, Rob you better
throw me off this list! :)  Yes, that was _tail_ of genji!  He didn't get
it and flames are just bursting from my ears.  Oh No, I did it again.  Look
he's doing it again!  Oh, no, again. Oh no, ...]

I'd cut down on the gobble-gobble's if I were you, Thanksgiving is just
around the corner, and it looks like it's going to be a bug-shoot.


>Douglas E. Berry


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:01:33 -0800
From: "Makens, Brian" <bjm@dsc.com>
Subject: RE:Imperial Starship Troopers

>
>From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com 
>> What is the average Imperial Marine likely to wear? What is their main role
>> in shipboard life? Is it for initiating and repelling boarding actions? If
>> so, I think it unlikely they are going to be going around in battle dress
>> with plasma guns all the time. There are lots of small places on ships.
>> Or is their main role for securing select installations. Like, the ships
>> pound the hell out of a station, starport with their capital weapons, and
> > the marines take and hold them. The Army comes in later and garrisons it?
>  > This would imply more heavy weapons and armament.
>[> However, odds are that the majority of a marine's life is spent outside of
> > combat or near-combat situations. What are their _normal_ shipboard
>duites?
>  > Are they the military police or is that kept separate?
>
>I understand that most of the Imperial Marines would fall into 2 major
>categories fleet and jump
>Shipboard security/Fleet Marines - service dress  plus zero-g vacumm/battle
>dress.
>These would be the troops normally designed with the ship design process.
>Their
>purpose is entirely ship security/boarding actions. Though there might be
>occasions
>when they are used for a raid on a planetary installation or evacuations of
>diplomatic families
>and other imperial civilians from hot spots, but it wouldn't be these troops
>forte to make
>planetary assualts.
>
>Jump Troops- Juamp casule troops needed for installation raids or to
>establish
>a planethead during large planetary invasions. probably hauled into a
>planetary
> assualt by specialized troop
> transports designed with large quantities of jump tubes, marine quarters.
>These troops would wear standard battledress and largely come down in 
>jump capsules. (From published sources, there would also be some gravitc tank
>and  lift marines brought down in shuttle later). Marine troops transports
>would
>be probably tailored into battalion sized, brigade sized or division sized
>transports,
>to tailor the size forced hauled in, alternatively, maybe all the troop
>transports
>would be battalion sized, and you just bring in more ships when you want to
>drop
>a division). Fire Support would be largely done by Fleet ships.
>
>While marine troops would be heavily biased into jump troops, Imperial
>Army troops would be heavily biased into gravitic tank, lift infantry,
>artillery
>and point defense (from both oribital and suborbital threats). Imperial Army
>Vehicles probably would heavier armored with more firepower than the 
>vehicles marines used(army ones don't have to come down in assault drop
>ships).
>Army Troops would probably arrive in large requistioned civilian bulk cargo
>transports
>and landed and by shuttle at a field or captured starport.
>
>
>Basic steps to capture the Zhodani sector capital
>
>ZHO-> Zho Naval Int picks up signs of a Impie Fleet buildup two sectors away.
>             Leaves are cancelled, quiet dispersal of units, and other
>preparations are made.
>
> IMP-> Imp Strike fleet jumps into system 
>
> ZHO->Rumors fly amoung civilians, Zho fleet moves to intercept the Impies
>
> Imp-> Battle at the gas giant, possibly some boarding actions at the end of
>the battle by 
>         fleet marines
> 
>  Zho->Zhodani fleet mauled, jumps out, Sector Council  jumps out on one of
>the last crusier out.
>            Zho Planetary First Consul comes on planetary holgrid, appeals
>for calm, claims that fleet
>             has only retreated on a temporary basis, and soon reinforcements
>will be jumping in system.
>             Appeals to the public to have courage and be prepared to go to
>the shelter in case an 
>            ocasional strike makes it past the nearly impregnable orbital
>defenses.
>
>    Imp->While zho sdb boats harass the fleet, fleet capital ships
>        (cruisers, battleships and carrier fighters) attack orbital
>        battle stations). Marine troop transports jump into system.
>
>    Zho->Public emergency announcements to seek shelter flash accross the
>hologrird, 
>             civil defense sirens blare,
>             Zho planetary defenses go on full alert, fighters rise into the
>sky
>
>    Imp-> Waves of fighters sweep down to planet to suppress planetary
>defense
>        command and control, selected jump troop battalions launch to
>raid/destroy
>        deep meson sites, communications and command sites.
>
>    Zho -> Zho fighters and point defense batteries try to intercept Imp
>fighters and 
>               assault drop ships, drop capsules,
>               Major meson and particle beam defense installations open fire
>on 
>              any Imp fleet ship in range
>
>    Imp-> when meson/particle beam installaions are suppressed
>              Battleships and Cruisers assume orbit and proceed to bombard
>planetary 
>             defences and pin down ground troops.
>
>     Imp->Massive launch of several divisions of  Marine Jump troops to
>secure
>            a half dozen or so planetheads.
>
>    Zho->psionic consular guards teleport into Marine Jump zones, Zho grav
>tank divsions try
>           to slash into Imp Marine jump troops zones.
>
>     Imp->Marine grav tanks and lift infantry arrive by assault drops ships
>and planetheads established
>
>     Zho->More grav tank/lift infantry and artillery arrive to encircle
>planetheads. Zho combat engineers
>              begin field fortications.
>
>     Imp-> Marine combat engineers arrive to help filed fortity marine
>positions on planethead
>
>     Imp-> Imperial Naval Construction Battalions(forgot about the seebees
>did we?) arrive to
>         either build the field starport or repair the captured one. Bulk
>haulers transporting
>          army troops and equipment jump into system
>
>     Zho-> Repeated attempts to break into planetheads by grav tank and
>infantry assaults. Constant
>            massive bombardments of planethead. Ocasional teleporting raids
>by Zho consular 
>            guard commandos.
>
>     Imp->Shuttle landing of first Imp Army units, some grav tanks, lift
>infanty, and artilllery. Army
>          combat engineers arrive to start command bunkers, and point defense
>fortifications
>
>      Imp-> Other Army combat units shuttle down. Point defense units become
>operational
>           (in case the zho fleet that jumped out comes back with too many
>friends and Imp
>            fleet has to bugger out, leaving troops on the ground). Army
>supply troops establish
>            bunkered supply base.
>       
>       Imp-> When most of the Army corp has arrived  Marine Jump troops
>leave. 
>             Depending on how chewed they are and the needs
>             elsewhere  marine grav and lift infantry may stay for the
>breakout or leave)
>
>        Imp-> Massive bombardment of encircling Zho troops by both Fleet
>ships and
>              army ground artillery. 
>
>        Zho->As bombardment intensifies, zho troops hunker down in field
>bunkers
>
>         Imp-> Massive breakout assault on enemy weakpoints by Army grav tank
>               divisions and waves of fighters off naval carriers.
> 
>        Zho-> As line breaks, Zho troops attempt to fall back and build a new
>line of defense
>                 before the major population centers of the region.
>       
>        Imp->When breakout occurs, first part of army troops will try to
>flank retreating zho 
>               troops to destroy enemy formations. Others will begin drive to
>major
>               population centers.
> 
>        Zho->Encircled and demoralized Zho troops are either crushed or
>surrender. Some units
>                break for wilderness to prepare for guerilla warfare. Some
>units make it to population
>                centers defense lines.
>
>        Imp-> Depending on how nasty the war has become, fleet may launch
>bombardment of 
>               population centers. Invading troops may either lay seige to
>cities or launch
>             a street fight.
>
>        Imp-> Imperial troops fight into center of planetary capital
>
>        Zho-> Zhodani Planetary First Consul  last appeal to the public on
>the "what's working "
>               hologrid to bear the unedurable until the time that liberation
>comes. 
>              Urban guerilla cells are formed.
>
>        Imp->Imperial lift troops reach the Sector Council Building and raise
>the Imperial Starburst
>
>        Zho-> shortly thereafter, the Zho  First Planetary Consul and
>Planetary Army Commander
>                come out of the command bunker and surrender. 
>
>        Imp->On Imperial communication screens, the strains of "Imperial
>Glory" are heard and an Imperial
>                 Starburst is displayed. Soon the Sector Admiral appears and
>congratulates all naval, army
>                  and marines for brilliant victory
>
>        Imp->A Imp Field Marshal appears on the planetary hologrid and
>announces that all Zho forces 
>                 have surrendered. Imperial Martial Law under the Imperial
>Occupied Populatons Edict 
>                 of 103 is in effect, and as Imperial Military Governor, he
>will guarantee all resistance will be 
>                 ruthlessly crushed.
>
>        Imp-> Planetary Defenses are repaired. Military Police and light
>counter insurgency troops replace
>                  most of the heavy grav tank and infantry divisions.
>Military Intellingence and Imperial
>                   Ministry of Justice agents sweep though the population
>centers' elites arresting potential
>                   leaders of resistance. All psionic individuals are ordered
>to report and register at the
>                    local military occupation headquarters.
>
>        Zho-> In jump space, on all ships' communication screens a previously
>recorded message
>                  fills the screeb with the strains of the "Consular March"
>as a the Zhodani Crest flashs on the
>                 Screen. A grimly determined looking Zhodani Admiral, tells
>the  listening naval, army
>                  and marine personal that they have a difficult job ahead,
>but the people on the
>                  occupied world are counting on them. The days of liberation
>are on hand.
>        
>         Zho->First Zho strike squadrons jump into the
>system................................
>
>Brian Makens 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 21:40:52 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Traveller:  The Movie

What the hell, I'll jump on the bandwagon...try to give it a bit of an
international flavour:


Lucan       - Russell Crowe (played as a combination of his roles in 'Romper
Stomper' and 'Virtuosity')

Norris      - Sod it:  Robbie Coltrane (it just came to me, honest!)

On the other hand, maybe we should just do a Muppet Traveller:

Strephon:  Kermit
Iolanthe:  Miss Piggy
Dulinor:   Gonzo
Lucan:     Animal
Norris:    um....the Swedish Chef?
Craig:     Fozzie

Fill out cast with the chickens, install Dr Bunsen and Beaker on Research
Station Omicron to cook up the virus...Pigs in Space as Imperial Navy
crew...the two critics as SolSec apparatiks.....


sorry, I've got to cut down on the sugar intake and mind altering drugs...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:14:45 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Dune

> Aw, come on, the Harkonens were the best thing about that film.  Besides
> Sean Young in latex fetishwear, I mean.  It's really rare anyone has the
> nerve to show grinning, happy, laughing Evil on the screen like that.
> Sure, they made you want to crawl under the seat and puke, but they had
> VERVE, man!

Actually, I disagree.  They didn't seem evil at all, just ludicrous and
stupid.  The Harkonnens in the book series portrayed an aura of evil
much, MUCH better, without all the pointlessly gross scenes.  Like the
Baron's fondness for young boys.  I think everyone considers that pretty
evil.  Understandably, the movie could not show things like that.

No, the film portrayed the Baron and his cronies as laughable, idiot
fatmen with gluttonous and greedy attitudes.  Sting was pretty ominous
and I appreciate the effort he gave to his role as Feyd-Rautha.

The original Baron wasn't some flesh-rotted fatman as seen in the
movie.  His 'ugliness' was on the inside.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2100
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Saturday, November 15 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2101



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars
Re: Trav Movie
Re: MST3K
Re: TNE-RCES list
Hazardous Waste Storage
Patrol ships? (_not_ Re: MST3K)
Re: Transponders
Re: MST3K
Re: WOW
Re: What fraction of the Roman Empire had citizenship
Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)
Re: Imperila Marines  (was: Can we stop talking about Starship Troopers?)
Re: Messing with stars
Re: Imperial Law and Stuff
Re: Messing with stars
Re: US History (OT) was Re:Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2100
Re: Looking for.
Re: Imperial Starship Troopers
Re: Crimes Against the Empire (longish)
Re: Trav Movie
Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)
Sector Data 1105 Analysis Stellar Type

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 20:53:45 -0800
From: "Jory M. Earl" <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: MST3K: Re: the uninitiated and flame wars

I think you managed to capture the personalities of the MST3K cast
pretty good.
- -- 
                              The J-Man
                             GOC Systems
                           j-man@iname.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:21:39 -0500
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Trav Movie

"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>What setting? What sort of plot (Empire-Building, Warfare, Scout Service, 
>Deep Space Rescue, Merchant-ship adventuring, Twilight's Peak) [...]?

In my (humble) opinion, if the movie is going to be adapted from one of the
Traveller adventure plots, there are probably only a few front-runners: I'd
suggest the _Sky Raiders_ trilogy or _The Traveller Adventure_.

In either case, the plot would have to be considerably simplified in order to
fit into a two-hour movie - but both storylines offer plenty of action,
interesting characters that the audience can identify with, plenty of action
of a type that would translate easily and cheaply to the big screen, some
cool ships, and also a bit of sequel potential.

The important other factor here is that both of these stories offer a plot
that
can be trimmed and re-arranged without ruining the storyline.
                                        --- Derek Wildstar

wildstar@qrc.com -------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:47:27 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: MST3K

Leroy William Lu Guatney writes:

>BTW, the last person to doubt J.P.'s existence started the great HIWG flame
>war and as I warned him, J.P. has much more time to do e-mail than I do. :)

   For accuracy sake, it was Leroy who started the Final War on
HIWG-list, and it was J.P. who made sure that the flames stayed nice and
high by pouring verbal gasoline everywhere just when it seemed a truce
was at hand.

   Trust me, *no one* on this list wants J.P. around.  His posts consist
of about 1 percent substance, and about 99 percent flame/flame bait. 
The day that he arrives here, is the day everyone will look longingly
back to the glory days of Starship Trooper and pirate talk.

- --Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:58:50 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: TNE-RCES list

Scott Quigg writes:

>Sorry to interject into the midst of our passionate ST debate,

   Please do!!!

>but does anyone know what's up with the TNE-RCES list and how does one
>join?

   The last word I had on the list was that it was temporarily down.  It
should be back up any day now (I hope).  As for subscribing, that's
kinda hard to do at the moment, but send me a private e-mail in a few
days and I'll pass the instructions along.

>Also, what's going on with Sword of the Knight Publications and 
>Chronicle #13?

   TTC #13 is currently sitting on Kevin Knight's desk waiting to go to
the printers.  My understanding is that he plans on moving forward with
publication within the next week or so.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:53:19 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Hazardous Waste Storage

>
>> the building.  Move them weekly.
>
>The hard part is preventing them from getting outside help. A few
>buddies and a helicopter, and they are free.
>
>Just like the idea of dumping prisoners on a habitable planet with some
>watchdog satellites. It works fine until somebody shows up with a ship.

  Hmm, a friend in Corrections (guard) described his job as the
subject line I used. We agreed that a suitable experiment might
be siting a facility in a remote live-fire range :)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:54:50 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Patrol ships? (_not_ Re: MST3K)

>Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 23:30:45 -0800
>From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
>Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2097
....
>There is more to basing a ship than annual maintenance.

  So it's being suggested that patrol ships operating in relays
at distance from bases is not happening?

>>>>And btw. if these merchants really did get a kick-ass computer, won't that
>>>>be really, really bad news for a potential pirate?
>>>
>>>So he doesn't attack those ships.
>>
>>  Umm, the authorities can't tell that a ship has upgraded arms
>>and computer, but a pirate _can_ tell? Neat.
>
>No, he doesn't attack the ships that are armed at all.

  At what range can you determine that?

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:53:31 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Transponders

>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:57:17 PST
>From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
>Subject: Re: Piracy (not ST...)
....
>For someone who has been out the loop for some time, is it still 
>impossible to change transpoders in starships?  It would seem to me that 
>there *could* be a tremendous black market/organized crime interest in 
>developing a way to change transponders so that stolen ships 
>disappear....

Hello,
  Really difficult, then impossible after the Cymbeline-derived
chips are enslaved, urh, used. This contradicts a fair chunk of
canonical material, so assuming that forgeries capable of passing
civilian or backwater queries are possible seems reasonable. Pirates
might also substitute _very_ comprehensive intel/target set-up data
for using a transponder themselves.

  The best way of disappearing a stolen ship remains getting it to
a state that will ignore its ownership status.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 03:53:39 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: MST3K

At 09:04 PM 11/14/97 -0700, Leroy spewed
:
>On Thu, 13 Nov 1997 14:36:17 -0800
>Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
>>
>>At 11:22 AM 11/13/97 -0600, you wrote:
>>
>>>P.S. Watch yourself ... I suspect the fanatical slave-players of the Oracle
>>>of Capital/Core's gaming group will be after you now. Incoming!!!
>>
>>I recently acquired a .23cal two-barrelled derringer.  Right now, Only one
>>chamber is usable due to corrosion.  This should be sufficient firepower to
>>deal with the expected horde.
>
>
>Dougie, _please_, *please*, _PLEASE_ don't take your life that way.  What
>would your mailing list think!  Seriously reconsider.  I mean it.  I could
>even try to find Jack's telephone number for you, it would be dignified
>that way. <G> (Maybe I misunderstood--some other horde, hmmm, No.)

Horde is *plural*.  Do they teach remedial English at your educational
institutution?  I'd suggest a refresher course.

Also, the only people who call me Dougie are people I've slept with.  No
offense if you do happen to qualify for that, but I don't remember it.

>BTW, you had J.P. going for a moment with that Mystery Science Theatre 3000
>schtick.  Then I explained to him that you *hadn't* figured out my post. You
>accomplished little Mystery, junk Science, and mostly Theatre.  Yes, I must
>give you credit for taking the Planetologist out of your bragline.  Of
course,
>I'm not surprised you would further attempt to compare yourself with the
>true greatness of something you had no creative input to. :)

I don't use that sig because it's rather long, and since I picked up
EudoraPro, I've had the chance to make several others.

As for my creative input.. I can't wait for you to start brown-nosing
Missions of State when it comes out.. especially "Hearts of Darkness".
(You even get a cameo, Leroy.. as a long-dead madman.)

>BTW, the last person to doubt J.P.'s existence started the great HIWG flame
>war and as I warned him, J.P. has much more time to do e-mail than I do. :)
>He suggested you take it to private e-mail at: sullivanjames@hotmail.com

Sorry, I don't email sock puppets.  If this alleged person has a problem
with me, he can email me.  

>I told him you couldn't stomach not talking in front of an audience (must
>run in the family :) probably because it is less funny that way.

This explains the ongoing discussions of ACQ, the Imperial Army, and the
other Traveller topics I'm discussing prvately with list memebers.  Mind
telling me, oh Karnak the Insignificant, how you know what I discuss off-list?

Insulting Craig is not a good idea.  He is much like a volcano.  Calm and
serene until he goes off, then he doesn't hold back.

>Oh yeah, you don't even rate between midterms now, just between programs.
>[more LOL]

Yes, we are, at you.

><PA call> Private no class D.E.Berry, report for Federation service!

Corporal Douglas E. Berry, USA.  MOS: 11B1V  Qualified Sniper, Small Arms
Armorer, and Pathfinder.  Where did you serve?  Or have you been a college
student your entire life?

>(Hey List, sorry for this.  This guy bugs me.  He's nothing but a troll.)
>[Oops there I go again, paraphrasing quotes for my own use, Rob you better
>throw me off this list! :)  Yes, that was _tail_ of genji!  He didn't get
>it and flames are just bursting from my ears.  Oh No, I did it again.  Look
>he's doing it again!  Oh, no, again. Oh no, ...]

Have you considered Zoloft?

Perhaps Hemlock would be a better choice.

>I'd cut down on the gobble-gobble's if I were you, Thanksgiving is just
>around the corner, and it looks like it's going to be a bug-shoot.

Offer stands.  You and me at GenCon.  Show up or show the world you can't
defend yourself.

>>Douglas E. Berry
>
>
>Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
> University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
> Class of '98

I'm taking this to private mail, giving it a priority just ahead of
religious spammers.
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|  Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net   |
|         Proud Gearhead & Planetologist         |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
|************************************************|
|  "Who am I?  I am Susan Ivanova, Commander.    |
| Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov.  I am the |
| Right Hand of Vengeance and the boot that is   |
| going to kick your sorry ass all the way back  |
| to Earth, sweetheart.  I am Death Incarnate,   |
| and the last living thing that you are ever    |
| going to see.  *God* sent me."                 |
|    from "Between Darkness & Light" -Babylon 5  |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:55:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: WOW

In mail you write:

>  In MT the following codes is available:
> S       Sept
> T       Unsupervised Anarchy
> W       Comitte

What species are those codes for?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:57:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: What fraction of the Roman Empire had citizenship

In mail you write:

> I am planning on leaving everyone as a citizen, but I am going to give all
> former members of the Imperial forces some significant benefits.  Before I
> do so, I want to make sure that I do not outreach my historical analogue.
>
> Does anyone know offhand what fraction of the populace were counted as
> Roman citizens, at a time when the distinction was meaningful?

No, but I *think* that one way of earning citizenship was serving in
the legions. Note that this tended to be a lot more than a current
"term"!

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:16:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)

In mail you write:

> I was working on a rational system of law that classified crimes for "all"
> cultures. Think about how various crimes fit into this scheme...
>
> Marc
>
> THE CATEGORIES OF CRIME
>                 Crimes Against
>                 Property        Environment     Beings          Society
>         1       Vandalism       Waste           Assault         Violation
>         2       Damage          Damage          Mayhem          Slack
>         3       Theft           Pollution       Slaughter       Dishonor
>         4       Destruction     Ravage          Murder          Treason
>         5       Havoc           Ruin            Mass Murder     High Treason
>         Degree.

Silly question. Where do "victimless" crimes (gambling, drugs,
prostitution, etc) fit under this scheme?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:48:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperila Marines  (was: Can we stop talking about Starship Troopers?)

In mail you write:

> Note that the Marines are singularly unsuited for long duration combat.
> They use power-hungry equipment and weapons with obscene rates of fire.
> They need to be relived quickly, and it's inefficient to try to devote the
> resources to resupply them, when a similar amount of lift could be used to
> support many more soldiers.

This is one reason I argue for a lot of energy weapons, and some sort
of compact units for turning any handy scrap metal into gauss rounds.
Given fusion, energy is not going to run out easily. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:21:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Messing with stars

In mail you write:

> I recall that in Larry Niven's "Protector", the Protector Brennan killed
> the crews of another two ramships using a rifle. He fired it into a
> neutron star while they were in close orbit, and the resulting radiation
> flare took out the bad guys. 
> What do people think of Niven's physics here? 

Well, it'd be easy enough to check if you have the the mass of the
star, the diameter of the star, and how far from the star's center the
ship was when he fired the bullet.

You calculate the escape velocity for the altitude the bullet was fired
from and subtract it from the escape velocity at the surface. That's
how fast the bullet was moving downwards when it hit. Sideways velocity
would be orbital velocity of the ship *minus* muzzle velocity of the rifle.

Add the vectors, square the resulting velocity and multiply by the mass
of the bullet. Divide by 2. The result is the energy released on impact.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:38:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Imperial Law and Stuff

In mail you write:

>  Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au> wrote:
>
>>About the ST morality thing ... one thing I strongly think is that when
>>analysing a form of government, one should look at how easily it can be
>>rigged.
>
> I've vague recollections of reading an article about one of Einstein's
> German compatriots, who escaped to the west. Apparently he was taking an
> exam of some form for citizenship in the US and almost blew it. Why?
> Because when the interviewer said 'at least that couldn't happen here' he
> proceeded to explain exactly how the establishment could be subverted.
>
> If anyone knows who and where this morsel came from, I'd appreciate a 
> reminder.
>
> I suspect that unless the citizens are vigilant, any state could be
> subverted over time.

There's an old book by Sinclair Lewis on the subject. It was written in
the 30s and as I recall the title was "It can't Happen Here". It was a
chilling description of the US turning into a fascist state.

Frankly, I think the "Founding Fathers" would be appalled at the way
the government has exceeded the limits they put on it. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:31:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Messing with stars

In mail you write:

>    That depends.  How close to the star were these ships?  Dropping 10
>    grams of material onto the surface of a neutron star should make an
>    x-ray burst of the same order of magnitude as a nuclear bomb.  So
>    you'd need to be within a few miles to be affected. 


Non sequitur.

A nuke has a lethal radius of many *thousands* of km in space. In
atmosphere, the X-rays are absorbed by air within a few meters, heating
it to incandescense. *That* is what generates the thermal pulse. The
sudden expansion of the heated air generates the blast wave.

> I suspect that
>    one 10-gram bullet is pretty small potatoes compared to all the debris
>    that would normally be falling into a neutron star anyway, but then
>    again, Niven likes to put his n-stars in unusual places.

It was the *same* star as in "Neutron Star". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:29:53 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: US History (OT) was Re:Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

In mail you write:

> Leonard Erickson wrote
>
>> >>In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
>> >>only vote if you owned property or had a profession.
>> The only way the *un*enfranchised (dis-enfranchised refers to people
>> who have had the vote *taken away*, not those who never had it) will be
>> denied a chance to earn the right is if the enfranchised deliberately
>> keep them from being able to earn the money to buy property, or the
>> ability to *learn* a profession. Neither was true in the US.
>
> Leonard what about women, or non whites ?  Law and custom both
> deliberately "keep them from being able to earn the money to buy
> property, or the ability to *learn* a profession."
>
> Without meaning to sound harsh here I must point out that your statement
> is _not_ correct.

It was for those considered "people". Women and blacks were both
"property", with women having limited civil rights, and blacks having
none.

But white, adult males were *not* kept from professions or earning
property. Note that when blacks were granted civil rights, there *were*
immediate* moves to limit their franchise in exactly the way I mentioned.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 22:03:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)

In mail you write:

> I was working on a rational system of law that classified crimes for "all"
> cultures. Think about how various crimes fit into this scheme...
>
> Marc
>
> THE CATEGORIES OF CRIME
>                 Crimes Against
>                 Property        Environment     Beings          Society
>         1       Vandalism       Waste           Assault         Violation
>         2       Damage          Damage          Mayhem          Slack
>         3       Theft           Pollution       Slaughter       Dishonor
>         4       Destruction     Ravage          Murder          Treason
>         5       Havoc           Ruin            Mass Murder     High Treason
>         Degree.

Mark, I had to edit the table above. Either you are using a
proportional font, or you have your tabs set to something other than
eight characters. Either way, it makes *all* "formatted" text from you
practically unreadable.

I'd suggest using "Terminal" as your font if you are on a PC. Or else
some other pixed pitch font.

> Crimes Against God
>         Venial Sins. 
>         Mortal Sins.
>         Blasphemy.
>         Heresy.
>         Disbelief.

Most religions consider disbelief (or perhaps "misbelief" ) to be a
lesser sin than Heresy. For example, Christianity doesn't hold being a
Taoist agaonst you. They would rather you converted. But if you have
heretical beliefs, they'll be all over you. (Heresy is being of a
religion, but holding beliefs contrary to doctrine).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:49:00 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2100

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:31:45 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 13:11:57 -0800
>From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
>Subject: What fraction of the Roman Empire had citizenship
>
>I am planning on leaving everyone as a citizen, but I am going to give all
>former members of the Imperial forces some significant benefits.  Before I
>do so, I want to make sure that I do not outreach my historical analogue.
>
>Does anyone know offhand what fraction of the populace were counted as
>Roman citizens, at a time when the distinction was meaningful?

When?

To start with, there were "levels" of Citizenship ...

Roman Citizen ... by the Empire, this was pretty much all of what we would call
modern Italy.

Latin Citizen ... had the rights of connubium (could marry a roman citizen
legally -- presumably their offspring would be citizens) and commercium (the
right to trade with Roman citizens)

Non-citizen (technically "Peregrini" or "foreigners") ... who would have a
subset of the rights of a Latin citizen or few to no rights at all.

After Caracalla (? ... or was it Elagabalus? ... mid to late C3rd IIRC)
*everyone* in the borders of the empire who had been born there was a citizen.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:13:00 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Looking for.

In a message dated 97-11-14 14:57:34 EST, you write:

<< Anyway I am looking for challenge 54,60 or the article "Wet Navy2",
 "Maritime
 environment and navel combat". >>

I have all 3 articles...I will see about sending photo copies if you can get
me an address.

Ed

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 12:32:02 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Starship Troopers

In a message dated 97-11-15 01:21:34 EST, you write:

<<     Zho Planetary First Consul comes on planetary holgrid, appeals
 >for calm, claims that fleet
 >             has only retreated on a temporary basis, and soon
reinforcements
 >will be jumping in system.
 >             Appeals to the public to have courage  >>

Now just how is the Zho First consul going to fool any of the nobility...they
will telepathically know that he is lying!!!  :-)

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1997 16:29:45 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Crimes Against the Empire (longish)

I didn't like the article: it struck me as too humanocentric.  In fact, it
looked fairly close to what we view as crimes in Western society.

Take rape, for example.  Why is this an extraditable crime, yet assault
isn't?  After all, rape is essentially assault with torture (both physical
and psychological) thrown in.  What about a species where one sex isn't
sapient, or is less intelligent than the other?  What about species with
mating seasons, when one or both sexes aren't thinking clearly?

My opinion is that Imperial crimes should be major ones, and only major ones.
 This is especially true before the Empire is well-established.  Painting in
very broad strokes:

1) Treason
2) Restraint of interstellar trade
3) Ecological destruction

Specific other crimes would be fit into these catagories.  For example,
destruction of Imperial property would be a form of treason, as would killing
an Imperial noble or official (these being, in effect, an attack on the
emperor himself).

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 97 18:10 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Trav Movie

In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19971115002139.01097f1c@mail.qrc.com>

Derek,

> "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
> >What setting? What sort of plot (Empire-Building, Warfare, Scout Service, 
> >Deep Space Rescue, Merchant-ship adventuring, Twilight's Peak) [...]?
>  
> In my (humble) opinion, if the movie is going to be adapted from one of the
> Traveller adventure plots, there are probably only a few front-runners: I'd
> suggest the _Sky Raiders_ trilogy or _The Traveller Adventure_.

How about Twilight's Peak - Indiana Jones meets Aliens?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:38:18 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)

In a message dated 97-11-15 09:38:31 EST, you write:

<< Silly question. Where do "victimless" crimes (gambling, drugs,
 prostitution, etc) fit under this scheme?
 
 -- >>

Let's see. Gambling is (currently in Illinois) a state monopoly, so I suppose
that private gambling would be a crime against the State (or against
society).

Penny ante games would be Violation-1 or 2. Drug use would be Slack.
Prositution would be a violation of social regulations... Violation-2 or 3.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:38:30 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Sector Data 1105 Analysis Stellar Type

This is a distillation of the frequency of Stellar Spectral Types in the 1105
Sector Data (primary stars only). Shows the total times the spectral type
appears (probably not very different between 0 and 1105).

33	A0
46	A1
53	A2
50	A3
44	A4
28	A5
24	A6
18	A7
25	A8
17	A9
260	F0
257	F1
284	F2
263	F3
267	F4
174	F5
157	F6
181	F7
181	F8
190	F9
333	G0
293	G1
303	G2
285	G3
299	G4
132	G5
132	G6
155	G7
133	G8
123	G9
437	K0
437	K0
436	K2
446	K3
457	K4
172	K5
189	K6
175	K7
164	K8
180	K9
925	M0
943	M1
882	M2
939	M3
949	M4
429	M5
367	M6
403	M7
379	M8
382	M9

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2101
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Saturday, November 15 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2102



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Sector Data 1105
Sector Data 1105 UWP details
Sector data
Re: Imperial Citizenship
Cargo Containers and CSC
Re: How long is a piece of string?
Re: Review: Starship Troopers
Re: The Politics of ST...
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)
Re: MST3K
Re: Compiled Sector Data Available
Re: WOW
Re: Trav Movie
Re: What fraction of the Roman Empire had citizenship
Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:38:29 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Sector Data 1105

This is the distillation of the Allegiances in the 1105 Sector Data. Showing
Allegiance and the number of times it shows up.

A0	23
A1	18
A2	21
A3	27
A4	14
A5	23
A6	23
A7	24
A8	23
A9	26
Ac	24
Am	2
As	2020
Aw	2
Ba	16
Bs	3
Ca	26
Cb	20
Cd	7
Ch	3
Cs	167
Ct	3
Cu	25
Cv	3
Da	18
Dd	379
Dg	2
Dr	7
En	2
Es	3
Fa	3
Fh	7
Fi	40
Fl	20
Ga	5
Gf	43
Gi	17
Gk	4
Go	17
Gr	15
Hl	69
Hv	177
Id	31
Im	6150
J-	66
Ja	74
Jd	3
Jm	91
Jo	2
Jp	22
Jr	89
Ju	20
Jv	6
Kl	10
La	13
Li	548
Lp	6
Ly	4
Ma	298
Na	1431
Nb	1
Nc	2
Nh	1
Oc	2
Ok	3
Ow	12
Po	2
Pu	2
Ra	27
Rv	443
Sa	2
Sb	2
Sc	18
Sl	12
So	1069
St	148
Sw	27
Sy	25
Ta	2
Uh	21
V1	141
V6	7
V7	11
V8	11
Va	144
Ve	30
Vf	38
Vg	41
Vh	46
Vn	27
Vu	8
Vv	49
Vx	82
Zh	22
Zu	14

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 13:38:44 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Sector Data 1105 UWP details

Analysis of Sector Data 1105. 14727 worlds. For example, size 0 apppears 388
times.

14727	Size	Atm	Hydro	Pop	Gov	Law	Tech
0	388	1955	3252	455	1158	1663	114
1	1354	918	986	745	732	797	80
2	1208	1091	963	1187	1041	980	127
3	1503	1320	1146	1476	1203	1295	191
4	1905	1417	1386	2139	1373	1396	353
5	2376	1656	1490	2226	1385	1334	568
6	2001	1607	1372	2032	1363	1490	814
7	1605	1274	1273	1682	1188	1422	1216
8	1258	1189	1011	1489	1045	1194	1457
9	744	990	734	934	806	1076	1671
A	379	555	1114	362	555	723	1769
B	4	328	0	0	341	589	1607
C	2	274	0	0	222	363	1511
D	0	110	0	0	86	179	1148
E	0	32	0	0	28	104	1195
F	0	11	0	0	9	77	823
G	0	0	0	0	344	28	82
H	0	0	0	0	289	8	1
I	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
J	0	0	0	0	223	7	0
K	0	0	0	0	248	2	0
L	0	0	0	0	518	0	0
M	0	0	0	0	244	0	0
N	0	0	0	0	245	0	0
O	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
P	0	0	0	0	2	0	0
Q	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
R	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
S	0	0	0	0	54	0	0
T	0	0	0	0	19	0	0
U	0	0	0	0	3	0	0
V	0	0	0	0	1	0	0
W	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
X	0	0	0	0	2	0	0
Y	0	0	0	0	0	0	0
Z	0	0	0	0	0	0	0

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 10:39:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Sector data

Heyo!

I've had a couple of people point out some errors in the file.
If you find any problems, please let me know!  I hope to fix the problems
and have the revised files posted by Monday A.M. (I'll post on the TML
when I have the files fixed).  Unfortunately, I'm up in Seattle fixing my
parents' computer (obviously, I have done a good job so far!), and won't
be back in Portland until late this afternoon.

Thanks for all the positive feedback, and the interest!  :)

Again, for those who would like a copy of either the spreadsheet or the
database, the URL is http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

douglas

- --------------------------------------------
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                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1997 17:35:15 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Imperial Citizenship

>Again, that violates the hands-off policy. Unless my interpretation of that
>policy is wrong? I forsee a situation where the player group can say to a
>local policemen "that silly law you locals have about not drinking in public
>doesn't apply to us because we're Imperial citizens". A few of those
incidents
>would begin to infuriate the local populace.
>
>Think of what happens when diplomatic immunity is used by criminals to get
>around charges of rape, assault and other serious crimes.

You have a point.  I'm assuming that Imperial Citizens make up a small
proportion of the population.  Come to think of it, the proportion of Roman
Citizens (1-2%) about matches that of Imperial Nobles, so possibly I should
shift this to nobles.

In any case, you are correct about infuriating the locals.  Now think what
the local Imperial Resident would do to you if you screwed up Imperial
relations.  If a group of players (or young louts) decided to stand on their
rights, I would have the Imperial Resident (a noble with the right of low
justice) hit them with a much worse penalty for "interfering with Imperial
relations" (which in my game can escalate into a charge of subversion, which
is treason).

Most players would take the local penalty!

That takes care of the young louts.  What of actual residents and more
serious crimes? 

Well, I play characters are full individuals, which means that they have NPC
friends who matter to them, families, and so on.  People like this don't want
to be banished, so they act accordingly.  But then, in my game guns are
rarely used even to threaten, and usually not fired, so the situation rarely
arises.


>So where is the incentive for a world to voluntarily join the Imperium?
>Sure they get great military protection but they have to give up all those
>juicy taxes because everyone paying those taxes will immediately attempt to
>become Imperial citizens.

Good point.  I was envisioning 1-2% citizens.  Gradually, taxes would get
imposed even on citizens as citizenship spreads.  That was in fact one reason
why the Roman emperor (still can't remember which one) extended citizenship
to all.  He also made citizens liable for taxes, which meant that he had just
increased his tax base rather than lowered it.

------------------------------

Date: 15 Nov 1997 17:44:28 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Cargo Containers and CSC

>Question (for Rob);
>So this thing can lift a one-ton cargo container.  Can it lift a container
>full of superdense?  or just one full of feathers?
>
>You must be using (as I saw from another post) the "standard" amount of
>mass per Kl of cargo space, wha tis that figure and shouldn't you include
>that in the description?

You are correct, I am using the standard 500kg per displacement ton.  I guess
maybe I should specify mass as well as volume.  I just assumed that people
using CSC (the software) would own CSC (the book).  Possibly I should allow
the user to specify both volume of the cargo bay and mass that the vehicle is
rated to carry?

And to think that CSC was just a 'quick hack' until I was ready to write
FFS2!


>Just wanted you to know these things don't just go by without being read.

That's nice.


>P.S. Cargo containers in prior verions of Traveller were 4 tons, right?
>Why the switch to one-ton?

No reason.  I've always used a variety of standard sizes (and they became
canon when DGp published my cargo container designs as an equipment sheet). 
The Ralston lifts 1 ton containers.  I'll design a 4 ton lifter sometime,
too.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:33:21 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: How long is a piece of string?

At 11:35 am 11/13/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>        I'd be more concerned about the elasticity. Sure, take a 1
light-year
>>string. Tug on it. What's going to happen is that the portion of the
string
>>you're holding will move toward you. That portion will pull the next
>>portion, and the next portion, and the next portion. The far end of the
>>string certainly won't move at the same time as the near end--you've got
to
>>propagate the force down the length of the string.
>
>The tug would propagate at the speed of sound (in the string) which can go
>as high as close to lightspeed if sufficiently dense/compressed material
is
>used.

	"Close to lightspeed" ... so the communications device would be somewhat
worse than light. The proposition was that a movement at this end
corresponded to a _simultanteous_ movement at that end.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:34:45 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Review: Starship Troopers

At 08:01 am 11/13/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>
>David J. Golden wrote:
>
>>
>>	(For those concerned about my qualifications to comment on the
>>book--I've
>>reread it at least thrice in the last 12 months. It's very definitely one
>>of my favorites. And I'm not sure how the idea of linking
responsibilities
>>with rights becomes fascist ...)
>
>
>	I'd argue that rights and freedoms are bounded by the
>responsibility not to infringe upon the rights of others.  Rights and
>freedoms _are_ by definition responsibilities, since everyone has them and
>by their very nature they must be respected.  I cannot exercise my right to
>bear arms at the neighbours because it'll damage their property and put
>their risk at life.

	No argument there, and I think that's *exactly* what Heinlein was trying
to get through in many of his books. But too many people _think_ of rights
as absolutes, with no strings attached.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 13 Nov 1997 18:37:45 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: The Politics of ST...

>constitutional-interpretation overtones.  IIRC, at one point the U.S.
>Supreme Court decided that capital punishment was unconstitutional, and it
>took a certain amount of political padding of the bench to get a
>sufficiently right-wing court to later overturn that ruling...  So,
>basically, IIRC, what U.S. death penalty proponents are saying is that
yes,
>life is a fundamental right, but that your constitution allows it to be
>overridden.
>	This, as I've pointed out, is a pretty unique position :).

	Not quite. The death penalty _as a concept_ itself was never ruled
unconstitutional, so there was no need to "pack" the court to change that.
However, most states _implementations_ of the death penalty were held to be
unfairly or improperly applied, violating the constitutional right to due
process.  States which rewrote their laws _and_ the way they carried them
out had those later statutes upheld.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 97 14:16:39 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

On 1997-11-13 15:45, David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote the 
following:

>>On the other hand, you seem to believe that a patrol ships spread evenly
>>across 1400 or so systems is a vast waste of resources.
>
>This is because I see the Imerium loosing maybe a few cargos
>a year (at most one every couple months) in only the backwater
>system.  This is a lot less cost than basing ships on
>multiple worlds in all 10,000 or so systems it has.

Now you've lost me. You *aren't* saying that a few ships a month will be 
hijacked? Now it's just a few cargos a year?

>>I think an average of 3 well armed patrol ships per system is
>>sufficient.
>
>Well, I disagree totally for reasons stated before.
>
>>We've argued this point before. You obviously disagree. I think that you
>>*do* have to worry about areas beyond the frontier. It's too easy to
>>sneak deep into enemy territory more quickly than the information about
>>your movements would travel.
>
>It depends on how far you are talking.  Sure you might have
>to cover 12 or 18 parsecs in.  But Zhodani ships aren't
>going to launch a sneak attack on Capital.
>
>>> No, they just would wait until they happen to be in place
>>> where the random patrols are not.
>>
>>And what if they happen to be in a place where random patrols are?
>
>They don't attack anyone.
>
>>Besides, patrols are "canon" too. Check out the ship encounter charts.
>
>Yes they are.  And it is also cannon that they do not appear
>on every system all the time.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 97 14:16:39 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs Pirates (was Deployments)

On 1997-11-13 15:45, David P. Summers <summers@alum.mit.edu> wrote the 
following:

>>On the other hand, you seem to believe that a patrol ships spread evenly
>>across 1400 or so systems is a vast waste of resources.
>
>This is because I see the Imerium loosing maybe a few cargos
>a year (at most one every couple months) in only the backwater
>system.  This is a lot less cost than basing ships on
>multiple worlds in all 10,000 or so systems it has.

Now you've lost me. You *aren't* saying that a few ships a month will be 
hijacked? Now it's just a few cargos a year?

>>I think an average of 3 well armed patrol ships per system is
>>sufficient.
>
>Well, I disagree totally for reasons stated before.
>
>>We've argued this point before. You obviously disagree. I think that you
>>*do* have to worry about areas beyond the frontier. It's too easy to
>>sneak deep into enemy territory more quickly than the information about
>>your movements would travel.
>
>It depends on how far you are talking.  Sure you might have
>to cover 12 or 18 parsecs in.  But Zhodani ships aren't
>going to launch a sneak attack on Capital.
>
>>> No, they just would wait until they happen to be in place
>>> where the random patrols are not.
>>
>>And what if they happen to be in a place where random patrols are?
>
>They don't attack anyone.
>
>>Besides, patrols are "canon" too. Check out the ship encounter charts.
>
>Yes they are.  And it is also cannon that they do not appear
>on every system all the time.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:46:29 -0600
From: John Kovalic <muskrat@msn.fullfeed.com>
Subject: Re: MST3K

>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 02:47:27 -0500
>From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
>Subject: Re: MST3K
>
>Leroy William Lu Guatney writes:
>
>>BTW, the last person to doubt J.P.'s existence started the great HIWG flame
>>war and as I warned him, J.P. has much more time to do e-mail than I do. :)

Oooooh, yes. And the United States started the war in the Pacific, by
thoughtlessly leaving its ships where the Japanese bombs were falling at
Pearl Harbor.

I hold Leroy and JP DIRECTLY responsible for the flame wars at HIWG, for
almost bringing that list to its knees and for driving out some people
who's opinions in matters regarding Traveller I hold highly. I didn't say
much about it then to try and keep things calm, but I'll be damned if this
historical revisionism will fly here.

Harold may not be the most tactful person in the world, but the flame was
was NOT his fault.

While I may not post a lot here, there are some who know me from other
mailing lists. I like to think that I'm reasonable in all things. But this
is beynd the pale.

Grow up, Leroy.

John Kvalic


**************************************************
       "This must be Thursday. I never COULD get the hang of Thursdays"
                                              - Arthur Dent
**************************************************
                                       "Wild Life": a Web comic -
        at MUSKRAT CENTRAL: http://www.msn.fullfeed.com/muskrat/
**************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 17:05:50 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

I received this file. It doesn't have Diaspora in it. Does anyone have
Diaspora?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 00:21:56 +0100
From: Mats Erlandsson <mats.erlandsson@mailbox.swipnet.se>
Subject: Re: WOW

On Saturday, November 15, 1997 7:59 PM, shadow@krypton.rain.com ] wrote:
> Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 21:55:37 PST
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
> Subject: Re: WOW
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> >  In MT the following codes is available:
> > S       Sept
> > T       Unsupervised Anarchy
> > W       Committee
> 
> What species are those codes for?
> 

 They are from the Traveller Alien Module 7 - Hivers.
S - Sept. Governing committee of seven nest leaders.
T - Unsupervised Anarchy. Individual agreements between all citizens.
U - Supervised Anarchy. Individual agreements between all nests.
W - Committee. Governing committee of nest leaders.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:04:27 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Trav Movie

>Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 00:21:39 -0500
>From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
>Subject: Re: Trav Movie

>"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
>>What setting? What sort of plot (Empire-Building, Warfare, Scout Service, 
>>Deep Space Rescue, Merchant-ship adventuring, Twilight's Peak) [...]?

>In my (humble) opinion, if the movie is going to be adapted from one of the
>Traveller adventure plots, there are probably only a few front-runners: I'd
>suggest the _Sky Raiders_ trilogy or _The Traveller Adventure_.

>In either case, the plot would have to be considerably simplified in order to
>fit into a two-hour movie - but both storylines offer plenty of action,
>interesting characters that the audience can identify with, plenty of action
>of a type that would translate easily and cheaply to the big screen, some
>cool ships, and also a bit of sequel potential.

>The important other factor here is that both of these stories offer a plot
>that can be trimmed and re-arranged without ruining the storyline.

Both would be good, but I think both of them more cry out for serial
treatment. I think "Research Station Gamma" or "Twilights Peak" would be
good as well, "Divine Intervention" would be another good choice, easy to
extend out.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 19:28:10 -0500 (EST)
From: TDRandall@aol.com
Subject: Re: What fraction of the Roman Empire had citizenship

In a message dated 97-11-15 09:34:56 EST, you write:

 > Does anyone know offhand what fraction of the populace were counted as
 > Roman citizens, at a time when the distinction was meaningful?
 
I don't have a specific number for you, but I suspect it was darn low.  If I
could persuade you that 1st century AD is "meaningful", and Paul's example in
the New Testament is relevant enough, the examples of his being captured,
jailed, beaten, or otherwise tortured several times in the Palestine area,
Asia, and Greece are telling.  

Roman citizens obviously had special privilege, but it didn't seem to be on
the "to ask" list for interrogators.  You can argue this several ways, but
one possibility is that it was a low enough chance of ever needing to capture
a Roman citizen that it didn't usually enter their head.

Here is a pertinent out-take from my study NIV, the note that accompanies
Acts 22:22-29 (specifically verse 28):  There were three ways to obtain Roman
citizenship:  (1) receive it as a reward for some outstanding service to
Rome;  (2) buy it at a considerable price; (3) be born into a family of Roman
citizens.

Use this however you can!

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 97 18:38:55 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)

On 1997-11-15 12:38, Marc Miller <CardSharks@aol.com> wrote the following:

><< Silly question. Where do "victimless" crimes (gambling, drugs,
> prostitution, etc) fit under this scheme?
> 
> -- >>
>Let's see. Gambling is (currently in Illinois) a state monopoly, so I suppose
>that private gambling would be a crime against the State (or against
>society).
>
>Penny ante games would be Violation-1 or 2. Drug use would be Slack.
>Prositution would be a violation of social regulations... Violation-2 or 3.

For more enlightened cultures where Gambling is not a state sponsored 
venture, then I would say it would be classified as a crime against 
society... degree of crime would be proportional to the number of 
participants enticed into the gamble.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 97 16:28:31 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

On 11/12/97 at 08:43 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
said:

>> > Lucan = John Malkovich (evil, nasty and insane)
>>  
>> I tell ya, Tim Curry is the perfect Lucan. Evil, twisted, insane, flys
>> off the handle more easily than John would. Also has that comedic bent.
>> Lucan should act the fool.

I thought of Tim Curry too. 

>The guy who played Cartagia in B5?

Yeah, I thought to him too, but I don't know his name. I'm not sure if it's
the same guy, but I think he plays a preacher on one of the daytime soap
operas..sure looked like him when I was flipping channels Tuesday on my day
off. ;->

>> > Margaret  = Meryl Streep.
>>  
>> I was leaning towards Glenn Close, but Streep's good.

>Helen Mirren?

Excellent choice! She's got the strength to do Margaret justice, and she'd
probably work a little cheaper than Streep or Close.

>> > We need some gravitas with Strephon - Ian Holm?

>Nah.

>> I was thinking Kenneth Branagh -- Noble, tragic Shakespearian actor

>Bit young, but could work. 

Branagh is good, and I don't think he'd be too young for the part.

>Sean Connery?

Too old.

>> I'm not really sold on Nicholson as Norris. I'm thinking a stockier,
>> more genteel, more "cossack"-y type. Maybe if Al Pacino gained a few
>> pounds...

>I still think Brian Blessed might work.

Sure he'd work, but from a marketing point of view you might have the
*public* saying "Who?"

OASS, has anyone noticed _The Postman_ is being advertised on TV as coming
out in a couple of weeks?  I didn't notice Brin's name in the quick
credits, but it's, at least, similar to his book.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 20:19:10 -0500 (EST)
From: CMcknight@aol.com
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

In a message dated 97-11-15 06:23:05 EST, you write:

> Subj:	 Compiled Sector Data Available
>  Date:	97-11-15 06:23:05 EST
>  From:	dom@cybergoths.u-net.com (SD Mooney)
>  Sender:	owner-traveller@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
>  Reply-to:	traveller@MPGN.COM
>  To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
>  
>  >Douglas,
>  >If you could sent it in Excell 5 I would be grateful. Thanks.
>  
>  Ditto, if you don't mind.
>  
>  ZIP it if you want to.

Same here, if you would.

Thanks.

Chuck

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2102
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Sunday, November 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2103



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

[T97#2098] Metalaw
[T97#2098] Imperial Citizenship
Re: Imperial Starship Troopers
Re: Imperila Marines  (was: Can we stop talking about Starship Troopers?)
TNE-RCES list
Re: Compiled Sector Data Available
Re: Piracy (not ST...)
Imperial Army!!  Who are these Guys and How do I join them?
Imperial Marines!! Who are they and what do they do?
City of Philadelphia (one BIG ship
RE: Compiled Sector Data Available
Re: Imperial Army!!  Who are these Guys and How do I join them?
Re: MST3K
Re: Dune
Re: Hazardous Waste Storage
Re: [T97#2098] Imperial Citizenship

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:07:40 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2098] Metalaw

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:28:30 -0500, shadow@krypton.rain.com
(Leonard Erickson) wrote...

>Metalaw started as an attempt to devise a code of behavior or ethics
>that would be equally applicable to humans and to any concievable
>aliens we might encounter.

>The first thing to go out the window is the golden rule. Treating an
>alien the way you'd want to be treated could *kill* the alien.

>So they use this instead:

>The Great Rule of Metalaw:

>	Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.

Bad.  Suppose they would have you bow down and worship them, to
the extent of blood sacrifice?

The "Do unto others" maxim really is intended to refer to
_ethical_ behavior, not _physical_ treatment.  Thus, the original
maxim should be acceptable without change - but if you want to
misinterpret it, instead of changing it so thoroughly, add a
caveat to the effect "subject to the biosocial imperatives of the
race with which you are treating".

>And tthe other basic principle is Kant's Categorical Imperative:

>	Act in such a way that the maxim of your will can at the same
>	time always be vaild as a principle of general legislation.

>In other words, always stop and ask yourself "but what if *everyone*
>acted this way?".

Which is, in essence, the same thing as the "Do unto others"
maxim, _properly_ interpreted.

>>From the above they came up with the following (I have a more recent
>version, but only in hardcopy, I'll type it in if folks are interested)

Please do - at least via email, if there's no other interest.

>the eleven "fundamental metalaws" in descending order of importance

> 1. No partner of Metalaw may demand an impossibility.
> 2. No rule of Metalaw must be complied with when compliance would
>    result in the practical suicide of the obligated race.

What if it would not result in the suicide, but instead simply
the severe detriment?

> 3. All intelligent races of the universe have in principle equal
>    rights and values.

Intelligent as defined how, and by whom?

> 4. Every partner of Metalaw has the right of self-determination.

So, my right to self-determination overrides my theoretical
obligation to avoid causing harm to you?  Or your entitlement to
your own living space (if, for example, I am biologically
parasitical, and you are an ideal host)?

> 5. Any act which causes harm to another race must be avoided.

Harm as defined how, and by whom?

> 6. Every race is entitled to it's own living space.

<nitpick class=3D"grammar">Drop the apostrophe.</nitpick>

> 7. Every race has the right to defend itself against against any
>    harmful act performed by another race.

Overridden by my right to self-determination?

> 8. The preserving of one race has priority over the developement of
>    another race.
> 9. In case of damage, the damager must restore the integrity of the
>    damaged party.
>10. Metalegal agreements and treaties must be kept.
>11. To help other races by one's own activities is not a legal but a
>    basic ethical principle.
>
>Anyway, this is quite probably the basis of Imperial Law. It leaves a
>*lot* of leeway for various cultures (see #3 & #4). But it also gives
>an interesting take on things. For example, the "bounty hunter"
>question would seem to fall under #3, #4, and #7. #3 & #7 are in
>favor, #4 is against. Of course, there's also the matter of going from
>"race"(culture) to individual. That's where the later version is a bit
>more helpful.

>Note that the Hivers and the K'kree routinely vuiklate the rules. :-)

How so?  Illustrations, please.


- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:07:30 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2098] Imperial Citizenship

On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:28:30 -0500, Peter Newman
<pnewman@alaska.net> wrote...

>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz> wrote
>
=20
>> Also from M:0 "Warrent of restoration - Article I, Para 4":
>> "The Imperium considers citizens any living recognised sentient =creature
>> native to or naturalised by a member world of the Imperium, or any =living
>> sentient creature swearing fealty to the Imperium directly. No =immunity,
>> protection, right, or privilege granted by the Imperium to a citizen =of
>> the Imperium may be abridged or denied by any member world."

Believe it or not, this isn't as clear as one might think (I
_know_; I wrote it).  If we ignore, for the moment, the
non-humans of the Imperium, this clause does not necessarily
grant citizenship-on-birth to _any_ human being in Milieu Zero;
Terra is not a member of the Imperium at that time, and humans
aren't "native" to any planet other than Terra.  Granted, this
doesn't really square with "ordinary" usage of the term, but...

Under this interpretation of the clause, if a member planet
_explicitly_ naturalizes its residents/citizens (by its own
definition), then those who are explicitly naturalized _do_
automatically become Imperial citizens, upon naturalization.

Now, when Terra is incorporated into the Imperium, things get
interesting - at that point, _all_ humans in space, anywhere, can
be considered to instantly and automatically become citizens -
including all Sword-Worlders, Daryen, Zhodani, Dynchia, et
cetera.  An even better twist: since Vargr are _also_ native to
Terra, the incorporation of Terra into the Imperium makes all
Vargr citizens of the Imperium, as well.
=20

>> Reading this, if you're born on a member world you're a citizen; if =you're
>> naturalised by a *local* government you're a citizen; and if you swear
>> fealty (take the Emperor's credit), you're a citizen.

See above - if you're born on a member world, you're not
necessarily a citizen - unless an Imperial proclamation or a
binding precedent established by case law says you are.
Naturalization or swearing fealty, however, _does_ automatically
imply citizenship.  Taking the Emperor's Credit is a different
issue, however - I take the City of New York's dollar (and have
sworn an oath to uphold etc. the laws and charter of the City of
New York [I am an employee of the Police Department]), but I am
_not_ a citizen of the City of New York - I would have to become
a _resident_ of the City of New York to achieve citizenship and
all rights, privileges, etc., pertaining thereto.  I still have
the obligation to pay taxes to the City, though, as well as an
extortion payment that quacks like a tax, but isn't legally
considered a tax.
=20

>> In 17 Cleon declared exctly what a "sentient creature" was. I believe =the
>> precise reference is in the MT referees sourcebook (of which my copy =is
>> on loan to a friend), but it goes something like
>> "any biological intelligent creature". It's framed to prevent robots =from
>> being citzens. It's refered to in M:0 as "Cleon's Pro-sentient speach"

>So what is your status if you are born on a ship in jump space ?
>(Between 2 Imperial Worlds)

>Are you=20

>1) An Imperial Citizen without a home world

No - unless Terra is a member of the Imperium, in which case you
_are_ a citizen.  Homeworld status is uncertain.

>2) A citizen of the planet your ship is registered on

No - unless that planet explicitly says that anyone born aboard a
ship registered to that planet is a _naturalized_ citizen.

>3) A Citizen of your Mothers homeworld

No - unless your mother's homeworld explicitly says that anyone
born to a mother who considers that world to be home is a
_naturalized_ citizen.

>4) A citizen of the first planet you land on

No - unless that planet explicitly naturalizes you, or explicitly
declares that landing on the planet naturalizes a person.

>5) Not a citizen of the Imperium or of any planet

This is the only _automatically_ true statement - unless Terra is
a member of the Imperium.  In which case you _are_ an Imperial
citizen of the Imperium, but may not be a citizen of any member
planet.

>6) An Imperial Citizen who may or may not have citizenship from a
>planet, depending on its laws.

No - unless Terra is a member of the Imperium, in which case,
yes.

Of course, all of the above is subject to interpretation of the
paragraph from the Warrant.  If your Imperium reads that
paragraph differently, the above answers may change.
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:46:54 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Starship Troopers

At 12:32 PM 11/15/97 -0500, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-11-15 01:21:34 EST, you write:
>
><<     Zho Planetary First Consul comes on planetary holgrid, appeals
> >for calm, claims that fleet
> >             has only retreated on a temporary basis, and soon
>reinforcements
> >will be jumping in system.
> >             Appeals to the public to have courage  >>

>Now just how is the Zho First consul going to fool any of the
>nobility...they will telepathically know that he is lying!!!  :-)

Th enoble in question will have hsi natural mind-shield up.  also, just
because a certain percentage of the nobility can read minds, it doesn't
mean they will be scanning everyone they meet.  That'd be rude to the
extreme, especially on a fellow noble.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 18:50:37 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperila Marines  (was: Can we stop talking about Starship Troopers?)

At 10:48 PM 11/14/97 PST, Leonard wrote:
>In mail you write:
>
>> Note that the Marines are singularly unsuited for long duration combat.
>> They use power-hungry equipment and weapons with obscene rates of fire.
>> They need to be relived quickly, and it's inefficient to try to devote the
>> resources to resupply them, when a similar amount of lift could be used to
>> support many more soldiers.
>
>This is one reason I argue for a lot of energy weapons, and some sort
>of compact units for turning any handy scrap metal into gauss rounds.
>Given fusion, energy is not going to run out easily. 

True, but having the magic needle machine on the ground just gives the
enemy something else to shoot at.  A 7kl drop capsule can contain quite a
number of gauss magazines and RAM Grenades; so it is more likely that the
Marines will recieve at least intitial resupply by drop.

THe Army will probably bring down a shop capable of cranking out 4mm
needles as needed, along with all the other Combat Support units found in
any divisons rear area.
- --

+--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x+
| Douglas E. Berry dberry@hooked.net x
x   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x-+
|          Embrace Fascism.          x
x       The uniforms look cool       |
+-x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x--x-+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:12:46 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: TNE-RCES list

For those who are interested in TNE or the TNE-RCES mailing list, it
*appears* to once again to be operational (at least it acknowledged my
re-subscribe request).  To subscribe, send the message:

subscribe TNE-RCES <your name>

to the follow address:

listproc@silenttower.dyn.ml.org

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 00:48:39 -0600
From: Alex Rebsch <grazzit@flash.net>
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

At 05:05 PM 11/15/97 -0500, you wrote:
>I received this file. It doesn't have Diaspora in it. Does anyone have
>Diaspora?
>
>Marc
>
>

I've got Diaspora in a Word 97 doc. Its 57kb. Let me know if you want it.
Please email me directly though because I get delete happy with TML
messages where the title doesn't catch my eye.


Alex Rebsch

- -------------------------------------------------
| grazzit@flash.net    <------ Preffered Method |
| Alex.Rebsch@wang.com <------ Last Resort      |
- -------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:45:10 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Piracy (not ST...)

>For someone who has been out the loop for some time, is it still
>impossible to change transpoders in starships?  It would seem to me that
>there *could* be a tremendous black market/organized crime interest in
>developing a way to change transponders so that stolen ships
>disappear....
>
>Has that been discussed before?

Yes.  I happen to agree with you on this and other points that mean
that transponders would not be a panacea, but there has been considerable
dispute.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 20:16:01 +1300
From: Brody Dunn <bdunn@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Imperial Army!!  Who are these Guys and How do I join them?

The Imperial Army does not exist!

Except, that is to say, as a department of the Imperial Navy.  The Imperial 
Navy Office of Ground Combat Forces is a department of Imperial Naval 
office with extensive experience with Ground Combat operations that plans 
and executes the Imperial Navies long term ground combat campaigns.

Individual Army units are drawn from appropriate member worlds.  Units are 
generally chosen for a variety of factors based on type of mission required 
and distance from the area of operations.

A very harsh or specialised environment may require that the Imperial Navy 
has to transport an Army unit much further than usual, whereas for a more 
moderate environment the Imperial Navy can take a larger range of units to 
fulfil the mission.

Brody Dunn

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 19:47:51 +1300
From: Brody Dunn <bdunn@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: Imperial Marines!! Who are they and what do they do?

Imperial Marines.  Ahh - that name just says it all.  Imperial Marines are 
the sharp pointy bit that the Imperial Navy uses to make a point to those 
that they need to make a point to.

The Imperial Marines job is to hit fast and to hit hard and then generally 
zip off.  They are also used to make a LZ used to land more supported 
troops (Imperial Army - just a bunch of planetary army units transported by 
the IN as required).

As the IN has a limited budget [after all, those priracy supression ships 
must cost a bit :)] they also use these extremely highly trained and elite 
troops to protect the stuff that needs protection.  However, I think that 
the IN would have it's own less well trained and drilled troops to act as 
shore patrols and run-off-the-mill ship security details otherwise they 
waste IM troops in roles they are not suitable for (The Edge that keeps 
them elite also makes then more likely to "overreact" in some situations).

As for clothing etc.. I always have the Imperial Marines wearing the 
highest levels of Armour appropriate for the task.

Shipboard duties would be a mix of off duty fatigues with guard duty being 
in light battledress(powered) with rapid response units in full Marine 
Battledress(Enhanced).

Embassy guard being in full Marine Battledress(Enhanced) with a rapid 
response team in Heavy Marine Battledress(Enhanced).

In an aside I think that the Marine Armour units (i.e. tanks) would tend to 
be quite rare and only dropped from specialist Marine Carrier ships while 
normal drop troops (aka Starship Troopers) could be dropped from a variety 
of ship classes (perhaps even in units as small as a platoon).

I think that when you see a Marine he is either off duty or In Powered 
Armour.  Just my opinion based on  elite troops being in shortish supply 
(Almost anybody can be a ship troop - but a Marine takes something a little 
bit better).

Brody Dunn
(A kiwi - hence the spelling)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 02:44:20 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: City of Philadelphia (one BIG ship

City of Philadelpia, City class Clan Free Trade Ship (FF&S v2, FF&S ranges)
Designed by Trimerc Enterprises, New Mars Yards Division

Statistics
 Tons: 1000000std (AST)  Crew: 4,813/4,849 Cargo: 714,788std (0/100)
 Volume: 14,000,000m3  Passengers High/Med: 2,151/0 Cost: 222,863.399 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 14,161,808t/3,960,476t  Passengers Low: 0 Maintenance Points:
158,597
 Dimensions: 299.0m avg. diameter  Troops/Science: 0/0 Tech Level: 12
 Size: 12  Frozen Watch: 0(0 group)

Electronics
 Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 3xComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86). 3xFibComp
(CM:0.35 CP:2.86). Bridge
 Communications: 2xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 2xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW).
 Sensors: 1xPas. Scanner (14.5 [160mkm], 1.00MW). 1xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm],
0.01MW). 1xAEMS (11 [.16mkm], 0.25MW). 1xLIDAR (13.5 [50kkm], 0.10MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:0.5, IR:1.5 (1.0 at 60,000MW), Act:1.0, Neu:2, Grav:2

Weaponry   Performance
   1 Jump (100,000std/pc fuel)
 20xLaser (+4) 1/2-2-2-0 [1,100/30-30-25-12]  1.0/3.5 Maneuver
(/Thruster:350,000MW)
    0.0/0.0 Contra-grav
    n/a Atmosphere
    1 Power (/Fusion:600,000MW,1.0)
 6xMissile Auto 1/1 (6)  106,428.6 Fuel
  w/11 Command DetLaser1d6/2 6G12 1000AU 0/0/7,000/0/0 Accomodations
    28,000 Life Support (/Type:St /FQ:Gd /'Sto)
    1 G-Comp
    10 ESA (/ROD:0)
    20 Sandcasters ( /AV:60 /Cans:60)
    0 Damper Turrets
    60 Damper Screen (23MW)
    60 Meson Screen (23.04MW)
    0 Force Field
    0 Gravtics
    0 [20] Armor, Structure 59

Features
 1xAirlock
 5xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)  20xMachine Shop (10std ea.)
 10xSickbay (8std ea.)    5xPrisoner Capacity   (0/5/0)
    5xGym (2.5std ea.) 2xPark/Pools(50.00std ea.)

   14xFull Galley (Cap:500)


Small Craft
      10xSpacious Hangar (200std craft, 0 hatches)
 10xSpacious Hangar (200std craft, 0 hatches)  2,380xDocking Ring (20std
craft)



Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications: 2xRadio (50,000km). 2xLaser (1,000AU).
 Sensors: 1xPas. Scanner (14.5 [160mkm]). 1xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm]). 1xAEMS (11
[.16mkm]). 1xLIDAR (13.5 [50kkm]).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 15xMnvr. 15xElec. 3,523xEngr. 456xMain. 26xGunn. 22xScrn. 804xCmnd. 10xMed.


Notes:
The City of Philadelphia is an experiment in the use of FFS2 and Andrew
Akins excellent Excell spread sheet.

The City of Philadelphia isn't exactly a city, more like a small town, with
a population of 7000. This is an example of one of the gypsy Free Trade
clans that operate in the area of my campagn (somewhat rimward of the futere
Solomani Sphere). The ship is there home, from which they trade among a
cluster of star systems.

The 20, 200 ton shuttles are used to skim and process fuel for the massive
vessel, which takes over 2 monthes to refuel! During that time the 2,300 20
ton launches (which also serve as lifeboats) can be used to explore plants,
trade, transport the ship's population for R&R, examine asteroid belts for
raw materials, etc.

In the case of the City of Philadelphia much of the Life Support area is
used for hydroponics, providing atmospheric and waste recycling and
supplimenting the food supply. In additon there are gymnasium and
garden/pool areas incorperated.

This isn't an economical ship, by Trav's rules, (I haven't been able to
design a ship yet that doesn't operate in the red, this one is about as
close as I've come!). It's a neat vehicle for PC parties to operate from,
however, and the Gypsy Culture is interesting, (more on that in later
posts). At any rate it does show some of the possibilities and flexability
available with FFS2.

Until now I've been very vague in discribing the City class ships, with
Andrew's spread sheet I've now got a more concrete concept. I can't wait to
start on deck plans! I intend to keep trying to refine this ship, so
comments are more than welcome.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 00:49:00 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Compiled Sector Data Available

There is a Diaspora data file with the 'old' sector data, but doesn't 
appear with the new sector data (does anyone know why Joe replaced the 
files?)

I'll incorporate it into the spreadsheet and database.

douglas

- ----------
From: 	CardSharks@aol.com[SMTP:CardSharks@aol.com]
Sent: 	Saturday, November 15, 1997 2:05 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

I received this file. It doesn't have Diaspora in it. Does anyone have
Diaspora?

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 03:45:35 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Imperial Army!!  Who are these Guys and How do I join them?

At 08:16 PM 11/16/97 +1300, Brody Dunn wrote:

>The Imperial Army does not exist!
>
>Except, that is to say, as a department of the Imperial Navy.  The Imperial 
>Navy Office of Ground Combat Forces is a department of Imperial Naval 
>office with extensive experience with Ground Combat operations that plans 
>and executes the Imperial Navies long term ground combat campaigns.

Interesting take..  I've always seen the Imperial Army as being organized
along the lines of the United States' National Guard.  To briefly explain
for the non-US on the list, each state of the union raises and maintains
it's own small Army for defense and disaster work.  The federal government
subsidizes and helps trains these units, and can call on them in times of war.

>Individual Army units are drawn from appropriate member worlds.  Units are 
>generally chosen for a variety of factors based on type of mission required 
>and distance from the area of operations.

Since each member world is responsible for it's own ground defenses, the
Imperium equips a certain percentage (10% works well for me) as Imperial
units, complete with hi-tech standard equipment and training.  This gives
the planetary government access to the best available without an out of
pocket expense, they just have to pay wages and facility costs.

>A very harsh or specialised environment may require that the Imperial Navy 
>has to transport an Army unit much further than usual, whereas for a more 
>moderate environment the Imperial Navy can take a larger range of units to 
>fulfil the mission.

Naturally, units from odd worlds are going to be more specialized.
However, the Imperial units will have access to training of other worlds of
the Subsector, (via the Subsector navy, whose main job it is to provide
heavy lift) this can be alleviated to some degree.

It also seems to me that the highest real organization level that would
handle operations would be the Subsector, since every Subsector faces
unique strategic and tactical problems.  Sector and higher headquarters
would act as money funnels and coordinating offices for massive operations.

I did an essay on the organization of the Imperial Army from the Grand High
Command on down.. would people like to see it again?

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:03:04 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: MST3K

In mail you write:

> Have you considered Zoloft?
>
> Perhaps Hemlock would be a better choice.

Zoloft wouldn't help him. It's not prescribed for *that* sort of mental
illness. Now for *my* kind, it works pretty well... :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 22:54:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Dune

In mail you write:

> The original Baron wasn't some flesh-rotted fatman as seen in the
> movie.  His 'ugliness' was on the inside.

Better re-read the book. The Baron was so fat he needed anti-grav units
to help him move. I can't say for sure about the disease. I *think* he
had it in the book, but I've seen the movie far more recently than I've
read the book.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 23:19:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Hazardous Waste Storage

In mail you write:

>>> the building.  Move them weekly.
>>
>>The hard part is preventing them from getting outside help. A few
>>buddies and a helicopter, and they are free.
>>
>>Just like the idea of dumping prisoners on a habitable planet with some
>>watchdog satellites. It works fine until somebody shows up with a ship.
>
>   Hmm, a friend in Corrections (guard) described his job as the
> subject line I used. We agreed that a suitable experiment might
> be siting a facility in a remote live-fire range :)

There's a lesser known book by James White (best known for his "Sector
General" stories), I think the title is "Escape Orbit". It's about some
POWs in an interstellar war trying to escape from the planet they've
been dumped on.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 01:53:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [T97#2098] Imperial Citizenship

In mail you write:

>>> Also from M:0 "Warrent of restoration - Article I, Para 4":
>>> "The Imperium considers citizens any living recognised sentient
>>> creature native to or naturalised by a member world of the
>>> Imperium, or any living sentient creature swearing fealty to the
>>> Imperium directly.  No immunity, protection, right, or privilege
>>> granted by the Imperium to a citizen of the Imperium may be
>>> abridged or denied by any member world."

> Believe it or not, this isn't as clear as one might think (I
> _know_; I wrote it).  If we ignore, for the moment, the
> non-humans of the Imperium, this clause does not necessarily
> grant citizenship-on-birth to _any_ human being in Milieu Zero;
> Terra is not a member of the Imperium at that time, and humans
> aren't "native" to any planet other than Terra.  Granted, this
> doesn't really square with "ordinary" usage of the term, but...

More to the point, when speaking *individuals* the term "native" refers
to where they were born. This is both the common *and* legal usage.

When referring to a *group* (or race or species) it applies in the
sense you are thinking of.

So while *humans* are not native to Vland, *a* humam may be.

> See above - if you're born on a member world, you're not
> necessarily a citizen - unless an Imperial proclamation or a
> binding precedent established by case law says you are.
> Naturalization or swearing fealty, however, _does_ automatically
> imply citizenship.  Taking the Emperor's Credit is a different
> issue, however - I take the City of New York's dollar (and have
> sworn an oath to uphold etc. the laws and charter of the City of
> New York [I am an employee of the Police Department]), but I am
> _not_ a citizen of the City of New York - I would have to become
> a _resident_ of the City of New York to achieve citizenship and
> all rights, privileges, etc., pertaining thereto.  I still have
> the obligation to pay taxes to the City, though, as well as an
> extortion payment that quacks like a tax, but isn't legally
> considered a tax.

However, "taking the Emperor's credit" refers to joining the *military*.
And up until fairly recently, that *was* a means of gaining citizenship
(if you wanted to). 

Also, "citizenship" only applies to nation-states and larger groups (at
least since the Civil war settled to matter of the relationship between
the states and the federal government.

There's no such thing *legally* as being a *citizen* of New York. Just
being a *resident*.

>>So what is your status if you are born on a ship in jump space ?
>>(Between 2 Imperial Worlds)
>
>>Are you
>
>>1) An Imperial Citizen without a home world

Possibly, but unlikely.

>>2) A citizen of the planet your ship is registered on
>
> No - unless that planet explicitly says that anyone born aboard a
> ship registered to that planet is a _naturalized_ citizen.

Probably correct.


>>3) A Citizen of your Mothers homeworld
>
> No - unless your mother's homeworld explicitly says that anyone
> born to a mother who considers that world to be home is a
> _naturalized_ citizen.

True. However, it is also possible that you are a citizen of your
*father's* homeworld. And the two are not even exclusive!

In fact, given the right set of laws on the planets involved, you could
have *triple* citizenship (mother's homeworld, father's homeworld, and
planet of registry of the ship!)

Oops! Make that *quadruple* or *quintuple*. Going by the example of
Israel, you could have "potential citizenship" on a planet because one
of your parents was a member of the proper race/culture/religion.

>>4) A citizen of the first planet you land on
>
> No - unless that planet explicitly naturalizes you, or explicitly
> declares that landing on the planet naturalizes a person.

Very unlikely that a planet would do that.

>>5) Not a citizen of the Imperium or of any planet
>
> This is the only _automatically_ true statement - unless Terra is
> a member of the Imperium.  In which case you _are_ an Imperial
> citizen of the Imperium, but may not be a citizen of any member
> planet.

Very unlikely. The lawyers have been playing with this sort of thing
for almost 2000 years *now*. They aren't going to "loosen" things given
a few more millenia.

>>6) An Imperial Citizen who may or may not have citizenship from a
>>planet, depending on its laws.

Possible.

But it is rather likely that you'd wind up with *multiple* planetary
citizenship, as noted above.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2103
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Sunday, November 16 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2104



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [T97#2098] Metalaw
Re: Dune
Re: Compiled Sector Data Available
Trav Movie
Leroy and Douglas
Re: Trav Movie
Re: Imperial Starship Troopers
Re: City of Philadelphia (one BIG ship
RE: Compiled Sector Data Available
Re: MST3K
Re: Leroy and Douglas
Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)
Re: Traveller:  The Movie
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Leroy and Douglas
Re: City of Philadelphia (one BIG ship
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Families in Traveller

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 02:13:13 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: [T97#2098] Metalaw

In mail you write:

> On Fri, 14 Nov 1997 10:28:30 -0500, shadow@krypton.rain.com
> (Leonard Erickson) wrote...
>
>>Metalaw started as an attempt to devise a code of behavior or ethics
>>that would be equally applicable to humans and to any concievable
>>aliens we might encounter.
>
>>The first thing to go out the window is the golden rule. Treating an
>>alien the way you'd want to be treated could *kill* the alien.
>
>>So they use this instead:
>
>>The Great Rule of Metalaw:
>
>>       Do unto others as they would have you do unto them.
>
> Bad.  Suppose they would have you bow down and worship them, to
> the extent of blood sacrifice?
>
> The "Do unto others" maxim really is intended to refer to
> _ethical_ behavior, not _physical_ treatment.  Thus, the original
> maxim should be acceptable without change - but if you want to
> misinterpret it, instead of changing it so thoroughly, add a
> caveat to the effect "subject to the biosocial imperatives of the
> race with which you are treating".

Well, in *this* case, it's the other way around.

>>And tthe other basic principle is Kant's Categorical Imperative:
>
>>       Act in such a way that the maxim of your will can at the same
>>       time always be vaild as a principle of general legislation.
>
>>In other words, always stop and ask yourself "but what if *everyone*
>>acted this way?".
>
> Which is, in essence, the same thing as the "Do unto others"
> maxim, _properly_ interpreted.
>
>>>From the above they came up with the following (I have a more recent
>>version, but only in hardcopy, I'll type it in if folks are interested)
>
> Please do - at least via email, if there's no other interest.
>
>>the eleven "fundamental metalaws" in descending order of importance
>
>> 1. No partner of Metalaw may demand an impossibility.
>> 2. No rule of Metalaw must be complied with when compliance would
>>    result in the practical suicide of the obligated race.
>
> What if it would not result in the suicide, but instead simply
> the severe detriment?

I think that's sort of like Shylock's contract. If you went into the
situation with your eyes open, you're stuck with the consequences.

>> 3. All intelligent races of the universe have in principle equal
>>    rights and values.
>
> Intelligent as defined how, and by whom?

Quote from an SF novel where metalaw plays a part: "That's why we have
metalawyers, and why we pay them so much."

>> 4. Every partner of Metalaw has the right of self-determination.
>
> So, my right to self-determination overrides my theoretical
> obligation to avoid causing harm to you?  Or your entitlement to
> your own living space (if, for example, I am biologically
> parasitical, and you are an ideal host)?

No. The rules are listed in *descending* importance, not *ascending*.
In other words, #1 overrides everything else. #2 overrides everything
but #1, etc.

>> 5. Any act which causes harm to another race must be avoided.
>
> Harm as defined how, and by whom?

Again, that's a question for the metalawyers.

>> 6. Every race is entitled to it's own living space.
>
> <nitpick class="grammar">Drop the apostrophe.</nitpick>

Oops!

>> 7. Every race has the right to defend itself against against any
>>    harmful act performed by another race.
>
> Overridden by my right to self-determination?

Yep. If someone tries to tale that away, you are allowed to resist,
with force, if necessary.

>> 8. The preserving of one race has priority over the developement of
>>    another race.
>> 9. In case of damage, the damager must restore the integrity of the
>>    damaged party.
>>10. Metalegal agreements and treaties must be kept.
>>11. To help other races by one's own activities is not a legal but a
>>    basic ethical principle.
>>
>>Anyway, this is quite probably the basis of Imperial Law. It leaves a
>>*lot* of leeway for various cultures (see #3 & #4). But it also gives
>>an interesting take on things. For example, the "bounty hunter"
>>question would seem to fall under #3, #4, and #7. #3 & #7 are in
>>favor, #4 is against. Of course, there's also the matter of going from
>>"race"(culture) to individual. That's where the later version is a bit
>>more helpful.
>
>>Note that the Hivers and the K'kree routinely vuiklate the rules. :-)
>
> How so?  Illustrations, please.

Hiver Manipulations can be argued as undermining the right to
self-determination. 

And K'kree behavior towards any meat-eating race that's weaker than
they are *definitely* qualifies. They are speciesist, and cultural
imperialists.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 06:16:39 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Dune

>Better re-read the book. The Baron was so fat he needed anti-grav units
>to help him move. I can't say for sure about the disease. I *think* he
>had it in the book, but I've seen the movie far more recently than I've
>read the book.
>

I'm not saying he wasn't FAT in the book, but he sure wasn't having some
wierd doctor poke needles in his face, nor was he squishing tiny bugs into
juice and sipping it from a straw.

I've read the entire series probably 7 times.  :)  I'll probably read it
again too.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:27:36 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

In a message dated 97-11-16 04:48:38 EST, you write:

<< 
 I'll incorporate it into the spreadsheet and database.
 
  >>

We need to check it.The file I have is incomplete... missing a couple dozen
worlds (locations are there but no UWPs). That can become another project to
fill in.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:22:17 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Trav Movie

Twilight's Peak is still THE archetypical Traveller adventure for me. And I
agree - it would make a fine film.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 15:53:30 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Leroy and Douglas

Here's my proposal. 
Forget conventions, let's do it like this:

1. Leroy: What Traveller material have you published? What ideas have you
contributed?
2. Douglas: Same questions.

Let's take a look at what both have done, and decide which is fit to tell
the other he's a fool.

My own position is this: 
I understand what Douglas posts. He speaks the same language I do (more or
less). 
I have read several of Leroy's posts and found myself wondering what they
were about. Perhaps I'm just missing some shift in my way of thinking -
Leroy, are you Illuminated? but I failed to understand several things Leroy
has said.

(The above sentence is grammatically correct, by the way.)

Now I'm not some ignorant troglodyte. I have degrees in Engineering and
Teaching. I have written a serious academic work on the latter subject. I
like to think that I'm not an idiot.

But Leroy... sometimes I have no idea what you're talking about. You're
never going to convince me of anything if reading your posts has the same
effect as staring into Jumpspace for a few hours. Could you please write in
plain English about somethign useful or else take it off the list?

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:06:39 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Trav Movie

In a message dated 97-11-16 01:26:27 EST, a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz writes:

<< >"MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk> wrote:
 >>What setting? What sort of plot (Empire-Building, Warfare, Scout Service, 
 >>Deep Space Rescue, Merchant-ship adventuring, Twilight's Peak) [...]? >>

My personal choice would be a story based on Norris' search for the Warrant
allowing him to take command of the Navy during the FFW...you have all the
great elements of a good story, with plenty of space for effects also.

Ed Jenkins

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 12:15:50 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Imperial Starship Troopers

In a message dated 97-11-16 07:56:32 EST, dberry@hooked.net writes:

<< Th enoble in question will have hsi natural mind-shield up.  also, just
 because a certain percentage of the nobility can read minds, it doesn't
 mean they will be scanning everyone they meet.  That'd be rude to the
 extreme, especially on a fellow noble.
 -- >>

That's all true...my point was a humorous one...why is it the last thing any
civilian authority says before fleeing w/ the family (or crown) jewels in his
pocket is "stay calm...all is well"??

Gee, look at all those airliners w/ troops around them on the tarmac... :-)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 09:38:47 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: City of Philadelphia (one BIG ship

At 02:44 am 11/16/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Features
> 1xAirlock

	Only one airlock ... with almost 7,000 crew and passengers, and 700,000 Td
cargo? 

>   14xFull Galley (Cap:500)

	Is this 500 per galley, or 500 total? If the latter ... again, 7,000 crew
and passengers are going to get MIGHTY hungry waiting for dinner...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 11:25:06 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Compiled Sector Data Available

You must be looking at the same file I have, mine is missing a lot of planetary
data as well.

I've been offered another copy from Alex Rebsch (grazzit@flash.net) - I'll see
what that looks like.

- ----------
From: 	CardSharks@aol.com[SMTP:CardSharks@aol.com]
Sent: 	Sunday, November 16, 1997 8:27 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

In a message dated 97-11-16 04:48:38 EST, you write:

<< 
 I'll incorporate it into the spreadsheet and database.
 
  >>
We need to check it.The file I have is incomplete... missing a couple dozen
worlds (locations are there but no UWPs). That can become another project to
fill in.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 13:05:52 -0700
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re: MST3K

On Sat Nov 15 04:54:09 1997
Douglas E. Berry <dberry@hooked.net> writes:
>
>><PA call> Private no class D.E.Berry, report for Federation service!
>
>Corporal Douglas E. Berry, USA.  MOS: 11B1V  Qualified Sniper, Small Arms
>Armorer, and Pathfinder.  Where did you serve?  Or have you been a college
>student your entire life?


That was a joke Corporal, or didn't you learn how to address a superior
properly (or maybe you didn't like that rather excellent movie)?

You *wish* I had been a college student all my life.  Let's see this is
late-1997, D.K. outta be getting out of the Federal lockup about now
(Federal judges don't like having a revolver put in their mouths), we
could put him on the job.  J.P. personally watched him bullseye a
deerhead in Black Forest at 6500 ft.


>I'm taking this to private mail, giving it a priority just ahead of
>religious spammers.


I love how you can't figure me out.  You've tried on several occassions
to hit a nerve, but you don't know a thing about me, which just makes me
more impervious (as if I needed to be).

Like I said, it runs in the family.  I was referring to the last time
a Berry suggested taking it off list.  I wrote, --dead air space--, the
sound of a chickening out.  That's fine, if you want to be loud and
boisterous, go ahead.

Just refusin' to be bullied by a non-comm, and a lesser ranked one at that.

Just stand-down Corporal.  That's an order!

If you *really* are taking this to private mail, I'll be there.  We can
talk about anything you want to.  Just don't chicken out.


>Douglas E. Berry
>


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:24:45 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Leroy and Douglas

snip
>Leroy, are you Illuminated? but I failed to understand several things Leroy
>has said.
>
>(The above sentence is grammatically correct, by the way.)
snip
By the light of natural reason?  Or is this a metaphorical contribution to
understanding?

heh heh just joking!
Colin

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 15 Nov 1997 14:05:47 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Crimes against the Empire (longish)

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> Silly question. Where do "victimless" crimes (gambling,
> prostitution, etc) fit under this scheme?

 Crimes, Whata ya mean Crimes. In a large part of the
world theese arn't. In my state both are regulated and
take the place of income taxes.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Yuppie Hunter of the Forgotten Surf
 Fortalice Desertum
 AD. 1997

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 97 20:52 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Traveller:  The Movie

In-Reply-To: <01bcf039$c2e32740$LocalHost@mickb>

Michael,

> On the other hand, maybe we should just do a Muppet Traveller:

Yes!
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 97 20:52 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

In-Reply-To: <199711160032.TAA25920@Mithril.MPGN.COM>

Eris,

> >I still think Brian Blessed might work.
>  
> Sure he'd work, but from a marketing point of view you might have the
> *public* saying "Who?"

George Lucas (I nearly typed Lucan there...) didn't think so - he's in 
Star Wars I.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 14:56:43 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Leroy and Douglas

	Folks, can we take this elsewhere? This isn't a popularity contest to
decide who gets banished and who gets to stay here on the list.  If you
don't like what somebody posts, respond and explain why (rationally,
coherently, intelligibly, please). If you absolutely cannot stand hearing
from that person, you might consider mail filters.  And the proposed
criteria don't help all that much, either.

At 03:53 pm 11/16/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Here's my proposal. 
>Forget conventions, let's do it like this:
>
>1. Leroy: What Traveller material have you published? What ideas have you
>contributed?
>2. Douglas: Same questions.

	Neither question qualifies either of them to be Traveller Gods. The real
question is *who makes sense*? 

	If I can follow a rational thought through a message, then that's useful.
If the message contorts and twists itself through several jumpspace
dimensions to come up with something that doesn't make sense, then I'm
likely to disagree with it. If there are glaring irrational holes in it, I
may point them out.

	If the thought actually holds together through an entire series of
messages, instead of doubling back and reversing itself when actually
scrutinized and challenged, it gains credibility. 

	If the thought stands the test of the other knowledgeable, intelligent
participants of the list trying to find fallacies or errors in it, it's
useful and valuable. 

	If, in the flow of discussion, the thought not only sticks together,
remains consistent and rational, withstands the bright light of intelligent
scrutiny, AND stays fairly true to the mythical "canon" of Traveller
history and feel, AND adds to _somebody's_ enjoyment of the game, then it's
priceless.

>Let's take a look at what both have done, and decide which is fit to tell
>the other he's a fool.

	Calling either one of them a fool is counterproductive and proves nothing
about the positions either holds. An ad hominem attack is logically
fallacious, and really unnecessary.


- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 17:25:26 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: City of Philadelphia (one BIG ship

From: David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net>


>>Features
>> 1xAirlock
>
> Only one airlock ... with almost 7,000 crew and passengers, and 700,000 Td
>cargo?
>
>>   14xFull Galley (Cap:500)
>
> Is this 500 per galley, or 500 total? If the latter ... again, 7,000 crew
>and passengers are going to get MIGHTY hungry waiting for dinner...
<Signature snipped>

I changed that to 1000 airlocks, still short by Trav rules, but I picture
the airlocks more as maintence facilities, movement to and from the ship
would be by launch or shuttle.
In the design section I have the cargo broken into 40 bays, I'm picturing
them matched with the shuttle hangers and cargo transfers happening in the
ship more often the out of it.

Not to mention that I completely forgot sanatary facilities! Awful lot of
people dancing in the corridors! I've attached the revised stats to this
post, added 20 more 200 ton shuttles and bunch of ordinary galleys, sized
for 4 people. The Full galleies I picture as resterraunts. I also played
with the bridge workstations, deviding them by 4 to reflect around the clock
operations. One thing the number of required electronic crew persons
compared to the number of engineers seems odd, by FFS2 formula the ship only
requires 6 electronics while the formula for engineers is over 3000. I've
boosted the electronics to 15 but it still seems light. Does anyone know the
thinking behind electrons crew, are they repair as well as operators? If
they are just operators then it still seems a small number.

It was late last night when I posted the stats so here is the revised
version.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

City of Philadelpia, City class Clan Free Trade Ship (FF&S v2, FF&S ranges)
Designed by Trimerc Enterprises, New Mars Yards Division

Statistics
 Tons: 1000000std (AST)  Crew: 4,781/5,418 Cargo: 701,400std (0/100)
 Volume: 14,000,000m3  Passengers High/Med: 1,519/0 Cost: 223,324.541 MCr
 Mass (L/C): 13,977,441t/3,963,541t  Passengers Low: 0 Maintenance Points:
158,750
 Dimensions: 299.0m avg. diameter  Troops/Science: 0/400 Tech Level: 12
 Size: 12  Frozen Watch: 0(0 group)

Electronics
 Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 20xComp (CM:0.35 CP:2.86). 20xFibComp
(CM:0.35 CP:2.86). Bridge
 Communications: 2xRadio (50,000km, 0.02MW). 2xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW).
 Sensors: 4xPas. Scanner (14.5 [160mkm], 0.25MW). 4xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm],
0.00MW). 4xAEMS (11 [.16mkm], 0.06MW). 4xLIDAR (13.5 [50kkm], 0.03MW).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Signatures: Vis:0.5, IR:1.5 (1.0 at 60,000MW), Act:1.0, Neu:2, Grav:2

Weaponry   Performance
 2xMaster Fire Directors (0MW 500,000km)  1 Jump (100,000std/pc fuel)
 20xLaser (+4) 1/2-2-2-0 [1,100/30-30-25-12]  1.0/3.5 Maneuver
(/Thruster:350,000MW)
    0.0/0.0 Contra-grav
    n/a Atmosphere
    1 Power (/Fusion:600,000MW,1.0)
 6xMissile Auto 1/1 (6)  106,428.6 Fuel
  w/11 Command DetLaser1d6/2 6G12 1000AU 0/0/7,000/0/0 Accomodations
    28,000 Life Support (/Type:St /FQ:Gd /'Sto)
    1 G-Comp
    10 ESA (/ROD:0)
    20 Sandcasters ( /AV:60 /Cans:60)
    0 Damper Turrets
    60 Damper Screen (23MW)
    60 Meson Screen (23.04MW)
    0 Force Field
    0 Gravtics
    0 [20] Armor, Structure 59

Features
 1,000xAirlock
 5xElectronic Shop (6std ea.)  20xMachine Shop (10std ea.) 200xLaboratory
(8std ea.)
 10xSickbay (8std ea.)    5xPrisoner Capacity   (0/5/0)
    5xGym (2.5std ea.) 2xPark/Pools(50.00std ea.)
 100xCrafts/Shops(20.00std ea.)
 1,750xOrdinary Galley (Cap:4)  14xFull Galley (Cap:500)


Small Craft
      20xSpacious Hangar (200std craft, 0 hatches)
 20xSpacious Hangar (200std craft, 0 hatches)  1,980xDocking Ring (20std
craft)



Backups
 Drives:
 Screens:
 Communications: 2xRadio (50,000km). 2xLaser (1,000AU).
 Sensors: 1xPas. Scanner (14.5 [160mkm]). 2xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm]). 2xAEMS (11
[.16mkm]). 2xLIDAR (13.5 [50kkm]).
 Survey/Science:
 ECM:
 Power & Fuel:

Crew Details
 15xMnvr. 15xElec. 3,311xEngr. 467xMain. 26xGunn. 22xScrn. 160xFlgt.
973xCmnd. 393xStew. 58xMed.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 97 17:02:11 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

On 11/16/97 at 08:52 PM,  aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
said:

>> >I still think Brian Blessed might work.
>>  
>> Sure he'd work, but from a marketing point of view you might have the
>> *public* saying "Who?"

>George Lucas (I nearly typed Lucan there...) didn't think so - he's in 
>Star Wars I.

Not in a lead, though, and depending on the plot Norris might be the lead.

Actually, if our hidden adgenda is promoting the *game*, I think we need to
think about a lower level plot with a group of characters in a plot that is
similar to what *we'd* run in a gaming session. 

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 01:31:50 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Families in Traveller

One of my players wrote the following after my campaign finished this week.
He'd be interested in the thoughts of the TML on his questions on families
and merchants generally...

Dom (if people are interested I'll post some write ups to the list soon).

- ---
Twilight's Peak: Steve on Kira

I don't like playing opposite-sex characters. It confuses the hell out of
me when people do it. I also don't think I can play women particularly
well, so I try to steer clear. Usually.

I joined Dominic's already-established game with Greg and Allison.
Together, with Jac (Captain) and Rob (gunner) we made five. Dominic had a
couple of pre-generated characters and gave them to Greg and myself.
(Allison rolled her own.) Pregenerated characters suit me because I cannot
be bothered with the hassle of rolling up. I am lazy. By chance, my
character was female but my initial thought was to ignore that. I planned
to play a bloke, as usual.

Dominic introduced the game. We were joining the crew of the Empress
Nichole, which was a few men short of a crew. In particular, it needed a
pilot and an engineer, positions Greg and Allison filled. Me, I was the
steward. Unfortunately, the Captain required that each crew member invest
Cr:15,000 in the "Partnership." I looked at my mustering out benefits:
none. I looked at Greg's - he had sixty grand. Hmmm. I had a problem.

(I guess I could have discussed it with Dominic. He would probably have
given the character some cash to allow me to join the crew, but it didn't
cross my mind. As far as I was concerned, my character was broke.)

I don't know where it came from, but I had a flash of inspiration: "Greg,
let's be married. I'll play your wife." There was a look of horror on his
face, and he refused. I started getting excited about the idea: I've never
played in a married couple before (I am not married myself) and it struck
me as not only a challenge, but also utterly different. It took me ten
minutes to convince Greg. He agreed reluctantly, with one condition. We
weren't really married, but that's what we would tell everyone else. Fine.
I didn't mind. Say hello to Kira (me) and her husband, Art (Greg).

The game started.

To me, Traveller is about ordinary people in a fantastic universe. We're
not heroes saving the world, we don't have awesome powers and abilities.
We're simply a bunch of people trying to scrape a living. That's Traveller
at its best - and it's a good description of Dominic's game. Twilight's
Peak is in there somewhere, but mostly it's restaurants, hangovers, cargo,
fuel, management theory and business practice. Up until our first and only
firefight the only combat situation occurred when Hunter (Rob's gunner)
provoked Tlankhu (Allison's Aslan engineer) and was cuffed as a result.
Hunter pulled a gun which resulted in disciplinary hearings and Hunter
being sacked. Characters wander around in dressing gowns, clutching cups of
coffee rather than wearing cloth and brandishing snub pistols. As I said,
ordinary people.

I don't know if playing a wife changed my perceptions, but I became aware
of a blindspot in Traveller (actually, in most games). The thing about
ordinary people is that their lives are dominated by relationships. Couples
are everywhere. Girlfriends, boyfriends, husbands, wives - the world is
full of them. Yet what I find remarkable in Traveller is the sheer absense
of relationships. I don't mean rules and tables for determining star signs
and compatibility, but just that the feel of the game (in its adventures
and descriptions) ignores relationships.

Marriage seems particularly alien. I cut my roleplaying teeth on Traveller
but I don't ever remember reading anything that suggested that people got
married. Staterooms, for example, seem mighty cramped when you're sharing!

I put these thoughts aside (they had no effect on the game) and continued
playing.

A few weeks later I was chatting with some friends and they jokingly
suggested that I should become pregnant to spook Greg. I laughed, but the
idea lodged in my mind. I already knew that Kira's goal was to raise enough
money so she could settle down and raise a family (ordinary people,
remember). I was already paying close attention to the book-keeping. And
pregnancy, even unplanned pregnancy, seemed appropriate enough. (And hell,
if I was going to the trouble of playing a woman, why not go the distance?)

Of course, if Traveller lacked when it came to accommodating married
couples, families were right out. Yet where are the family-run Free
Traders? Ships with kids aboard, ships passed down from generation to
generation. Ships that are homes as well as businesses. Think about it for
a while. I did. So where are they?

Once I had decided that I was going to be pregnant, the trick was finding
the right moment for the announcement. I also discovered (to my surprise)
that it wasn't going to be easy. To my surprise, I was nervous.

It was several weeks before the opportunity arose.

Our one and only firefight had far-reaching consequences. Kira wasn't
personally involved in the incident, she was brooding aboard the Empress,
but the pivotal moment took place during the escape. In order to appear
"natural" in front of some cops, Art kissed the Captain. It was just a
short kiss, hardly romantic or passionate. The Captain was as shocked as
everyone else. (Actually, it was unlike Art. Unfortunately, Greg was away
and Art had been "loaned" to Nickey who was planning on joining the group.
I don't think Greg would have kissed the Captain, but it was too late to go
back.) Comments were rife, particularly concerning what Kira would do to
Art should she ever find out. But, as it happened, everyone kept quiet (at
least, around Kira) and she didn't find out. Not for a few weeks, certainly.

The trouble started, as it inevitably does, at a restaurant. I don't know
what the Captain was up to, but she was drunk and playing sexual politics.
After blowing hot and cold over Eneri (our new crewmember), she dragged me
aside and told me about The Kiss. That Art snogged her. She sounded
pleased. With nothing more to go on, I assumed the Captain had encouraged
him. My head spun - as we weren't really married it shouldn't really matter
whom Art kissed. But if Kira was pregnant, now was the time to do something
about it. So I stormed across the restaurant, threw a drink over Art, and
stomped out. The Captain tried to follow, but I made it quite clear that I
wasn't happy with her, either. I took a taxi back to the Empress, alone,
and had a good weep.

Back at the restaurant, Eneri decided to see how I was. Unfortunately that
left Art and the Captain alone in the restaurant, which set me off again.
And then Eneri asked, "What's the matter? Tell me about it."

It went quiet. Everyone was watching. It was now or never. And I froze - I
had major stage fright. Eventually (it seemed like ages) I blurted "I'm
pregnant!" Everyone fell about laughing. Bastards! They're not supposed to
do that - this is serious stuff. Greg's face was a picture - as was
Dominic's. I could see him mentally tossing aside any hope of us meeting
the scenario.

As for me, I was stunned. I had said it, and it was the hardest thing I
have done in ages. I hadn't really recovered before we ended that night.
Art proposed to me (properly) and I accepted and that was more-or-less it
for that week.

What I hadn't expected was that announcing the fact that Kira was pregnant
would be so liberating. Afterwards, once I had recovered from the shock, I
felt good. Really, really good - it was a buzz that lasted a full 24 hours.
(I had a great day at work.) Roleplaying has hit me like that once or twice
before, but it's a rare feeling. Certainly I would never have imagined that
announcing myself to be pregnant in a noisy, distracting games club would
recreate feelings that have resulted from some of the most intense games
I've played. Remarkable.

And to think that all this arose from a quirk on my character sheet and me
grabbing the opportunity to spook Greg. Of course it backfired on me as
Greg returned the compliment. In spades . . .

Greg was ill the following week, but he had explained to Dominic that he
wasn't completely happy with the game. So Art walked out on me. I was,
well, spooked. And then some. Over the next two sessions (covering a mere
48 hours game time - Greg was actually present for the second session) we
scoured the starport but could not find him. Two sessions of me being teary
and upset, the Captain rubbing everyone up the wrong way and Tlankhu, er,
finding her own entertainment. (Trust me, it played better than it sounds.)

Then Art turned up. Just like that. I cried and accused him of leaving me.
His explanation wasn't brilliant, and I became more upset. While this went
on, the Captain really upset Tlankhu. Big time. Tlankhu stalked off and
refused to answer her comlink. Gone for good, I thought.

It took a tragedy to bring her back. While I snarled at the Captain,
explaining the finer points of Aslan etiquette, Art searched for Tlankhu.
Then we got a call from the cops. Art had been involved in an incident. Oh
god. Then we were directed to the infirmary. Oh god please no oh god. Art's
been injured. He has been knifed, bad. No no no. And - he died. Kira went .
.. . well, she just went. I was stunned, and turned to Greg. "Bastard," I
said.

Tlankhu comforted me at the infirmary, and lead me to where our ship was
being refitted. It turned out that while Art was "missing" he had
redecorated our room. And he had built a wooden cot. More tears, and
Tlankhu left me alone. (I've not done this much weeping in a game before. I
probably wouldn't describe Kira as especially emotional. It's just the way
it worked out.)

The game wrapped up shortly after that. The Empress jumped and Dominic
called the evening to a close. It seemed clear that it was more than just
the evening though, as cracks were beginning to appear. Tlankhu had had
enough and planned to resign as soon as possible. Kira needed to pick up
the pieces of her life and the Empress Nichole, with a Captain she disliked
and its growing reputation for piracy, probably wasn't the best place to do
that.

So there it ended.

We never got to Twilight's Peak. We never saw much of Dominc's scenario.
The Fifth Frontier War brewed in the background, but it was all
overshadowed by the emotional turmoil generated by a few ordinary people
and their very ordinary problems. And I wouldn't have it any other way -
I've not played in such an entertaining game in a long while.

Next week I am playing an immortal elf in a political fantasy. Somehow, and
despite playing a more "fantastic" character, I think it's going to be an
anticlimax.

Copyright (c) 1997 Steve Hatherley

- -----

I have Steve's address if anyone wants to talk to him directly.


    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2104
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 17 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2105



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Question about GDW Assult(Sorry, nothing to do with Traveller)
Re: Families in Traveller
Another try...
Leroy: A proposal
Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re: MST3K and Leroy and Douglas)
Re: Families in Traveller
Leroy proposal, addendum
Traveller Movie setting?
Re: Transponders
Re: Metalaw
Re: Families in Traveller
TML extract.... not urgent
Re: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re: MST3K and Leroy and Douglas)
Re: Families in Traveller
Re: Families in Traveller
Re: Compiled Sector Data

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:58:09 -0500
From: "Bob Sanders" <bsanders@amghome.com>
Subject: Question about GDW Assult(Sorry, nothing to do with Traveller)

Hi Folks!

I have a question about GDW's Assult series games, and can not find any
sources for the games on the net. 

I am not sure where else to turn to, so I am hoping that someone on this
mailing list can point me in the right direction. Please help!

or...
If someone knows how to contact Frank Chadwick please let me know! 

Thank you in advance, and please respond to me in person... as I do not
want to waste any more bandwith.

Bob Sanders
bsanders@amghome.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:26:48 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Families in Traveller

- -----Original Message-----
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, November 16, 1997 10:18 PM
Subject: Families in Traveller


>One of my players wrote the following after my campaign finished this week.
>He'd be interested in the thoughts of the TML on his questions on families
>and merchants generally...
>
<Steve's Story ... Snipped but not forgotten>

Dom,
It's funny this came out now. My campaign, barely started, is based on a
"family" run ship, several generations old. It's started in an attempt to
get my wife to start playing again. When last she played, a couple of
decades ago, it was in a D&D campaign where we played... a married couple.
Funny now thinking back on it, she used to get mad at me for being too
protectiveof her character, and she was right!

The problem with married people in role playing though (IMHO) is the
situation. I admit that as a rule Traveller is about ordinary people thrown
head long into, often, unusual situations. However, most parents are very
protective of their children, and spouses are the same. Hard to picture a
family, especially with small children, going pirate, or jumping into the
thich of an expedition, dragging the kids along. Not that it can't happen,
but I think it's rare.

More likely is the situation of one or the other spouce and children at home
worrying. Now in the typical Traveller Free Trader (200-600) tons, visits to
home are few and far between, so having a familly just isn't practical.
That's for the guys and gails on the regular runs.

Throw in a kingsized ship however, with families aboard and you change the
equation a bit.

Most of the PC's in my current game have family ties (yep, I assigned them
to them!) on the base ship. Mothers, fathers, brothers, sisters etc. So they
have a bit of a push to "protect the ship"< (I have to remind them of the
fact, but the campaign is new, I'm hoping this will come more naturally in
time). We haven't had any romances yet, but I'm working on one between a PC
and an NPC, a great hook I want to use is the significant other on a trade
mission that gets lost and how the PC handles it.

In all I guess that family and relationships could stand a real boost in
RPGs but it's really rare to find a player like Steve that can handle it. I
tend to try and push them more in them more in the way that GURPS does with
dependants to the PC's.

Anyway great writeup. Send Steve my compliments.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:11:14 -0600
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: Another try...

Well, I tried sending this to the list last night, but it seems to have gotten
lost in the ether.

I've not been on the TML for some time, but I've gotten interested in
Traveller again lately and I've been poking about the archives and whatnot
looking for information on the Alien modules and the '4.1' release of the T4
rules.

Unfortunately, the IG website seems to be moribund (the 'News' is from June!),
the MPGN mailing list pages are inaccessable from their homepage (although you
can get to them through the 'TSR archive' :/), and the various FAQs seem to
have been last updated in the middle of summer somewhere.

I'm guessing that this information has been posted to the TML in the past X
months, but searching through the digests by hand is a thankless task.  Can
anybody fill me in or point me at a current source of information?  Thanks!

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                             http://danger.home.ml.org/
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:13:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Leroy: A proposal

Folks, please, let's let this die.  Just ignore him, don't rise to the
(flame-) bait, and he'll eventually get bored, I promise.  Nothing else
will end this, that I also promise.

He's personally insulted me twice in the last three days on the TML, but I
just can't bring myself to care...he's crossed that magical line into "not
of consequence," grown a Douglas Adams-style "Somebody Else's Problem
Field,"  and I find myself much happier.  Not watching Leroy-related
thrashing about on the TML would make me happier still. 

A *big* exception to this:  Should Leroy decide to abandon flame-baiting
and ad hominem attacks as a lifestyle, I will be among the first to accord
him a civil re-welcome to the list.

So...shall we, ladies and gentlemen?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 23:18:18 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re: MST3K and Leroy and Douglas)

<hassan chop!>

> You *wish* I had been a college student all my life.  Let's see this is
> late-1997, D.K. outta be getting out of the Federal lockup about now
> (Federal judges don't like having a revolver put in their mouths), we
> could put him on the job.  J.P. personally watched him bullseye a
> deerhead in Black Forest at 6500 ft.

<hassan chop!>

> If you *really* are taking this to private mail, I'll be there.  We can
> talk about anything you want to.  Just don't chicken out.

<hassan chop!>

You know, this post, although ludicrous, is waaayyy off Traveller and also
poor form. I have a suggestion. If you decide to take something off-list,
just take it off-list. Don't announce "Okay, I'm taking this off list now!"
It's just plain immature and silly.

Okay, let's turn this to a Traveller post.

6500 feet. Let's see, that's about, what, 1,981 meters? In a forest.

ObTrav:

First question: Are there TL 7 (marginal TL 8) rifles that have that kind
of accuracy at range, in the hands of a skilled sniper? (This all assumes
you are allowed to use a high-powered rifle for hunting, and have a clear
shot in a forest for almost 2 klicks). Would a 12.7mm rifle do it
(especially since the .50 BMG is such an accurate round)? I know the Barret
Model 82 has the oomph to do it, but I am not sure about it's accuracy. I
would think things like turbulence would add up at such a range.

I don't have T4. In MT, this is listed as an Impossible task for a rifle
(no matter the type of weapon -- it is in the Distant range band). In TNE,
the 14.5 mm "crunch gun," fired from a bipod, has a range of 300 m (315 m
with a scope), so that's extreme range there too, which is also an
Impossible task.

So according to the rules, the chances of doing this are slim and none.
Second question (to the millitary wonks with experience in such matters):
Are the rules accurate on this? My feeling is that they are, but I have
never done such long-range shooting (alas, the gun range I have shot at is
limited to a piddly 100 m or so).

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.net

Appropriate quote:
"If I were to waste another word on you, it would be to call you a knave."
- -- William Shakespeare

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 00:33:43 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Families in Traveller

In a message dated 97-11-16 22:44:27 EST, dom@cybergoths.u-net.com writes:

<< He'd be interested in the thoughts of the TML on his questions on families
 and merchants generally... >>


How lucky you are to have such a fantastic group to play with...this is
EXACTLY what Role-playing is supposed tobe all about!!!

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 16 Nov 1997 21:48:01 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Leroy proposal, addendum

Please don't respond to my proposal on-list.  Simply act on it or not, at
your option, and (if need be) send comments to me by private email. 
Talking about the proposal on-list would, ah, kind of miss the point. :) 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:48:07 +1100 (EDT)
From: "Barry / Michael James (COM)" <m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au>
Subject: Traveller Movie setting?

Interstellar wars...
Reasoning: 
advantages
1. Near-future SF setting therefore recognisable to newbies
2. Earth as 'underdog' vs. immense stellar empire
3. Human ingenuity/cunning wins against bug-eyed monsters (well,
Vilani...)
4. Room for extrapolation of today's technology, sociology, politics etc. 
5. Milieu has not been extensively covered in Trav game materials, giving
more creative scope to scriptwriter and director. 
6. Plenty of scope for special FX 
7. No need to dress up Vilani 'aliens' with plasticene rude bits on their
faces a la Star Trek. Traveller has an explanation WHY the aliens look
like humans, too...! 
disadvantages
1. Not very close to any of the past incarnations of Traveller. 
2. Budgeting - unlikely to attract large amounts of funding. 
3. Sweetpea Entertainment - their last cheque to me bounced, and they're
very tardy about replacing it...perhaps they've got money problems? 
MB 17/11

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:29:39 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Transponders

On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Steven Hudson wrote:

> >Date: Fri, 14 Nov 1997 06:57:17 PST
> >From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
> ...
> >For someone who has been out the loop for some time, is it still 
> >impossible to change transpoders in starships?  It would seem to me that 
> >there *could* be a tremendous black market/organized crime interest in 
> >developing a way to change transponders so that stolen ships 
> >disappear....
> 
> Hello,
>   Really difficult, then impossible after the Cymbeline-derived
> chips are enslaved, urh, used. This contradicts a fair chunk of

Pardon my ignorance, as I have little knowledge of transponders in
general. Is Cymbeline chips a sentient ao semisentient being or just a
very complex computerchip? Even if it sentient why can't someone enlist it
into their use if the Imperium is capable of it. If the Imperial scientist
enslaved it, I'm sure that someone with enough resource can "free" it.

> canonical material, so assuming that forgeries capable of passing
> civilian or backwater queries are possible seems reasonable. Pirates
> might also substitute _very_ comprehensive intel/target set-up data
> for using a transponder themselves.

What exacly is the transponder sending/recieving? Is it different every
time? What exactly is it that makes it so difficult to tamper with?
> 
>   The best way of disappearing a stolen ship remains getting it to
> a state that will ignore its ownership status.
> 

Or just taking it apart and selling them all around.

>         Yours truly,
>                 Steven Hudson 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:46:20 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Metalaw

Leonard Erickson wrote...
>>
>>>Metalaw started as an attempt to devise a code of behavior or ethics
>>>that would be equally applicable to humans and to any concievable
>>>aliens we might encounter.

[snippage]

Fascinating post, Leonard. I've been thinking along similar lines for my
Traveller universe, but haven't penned anything so specific on the subject.
I've been working towards replacing the concept of 'races' with 'cultures',
on the theory that most species are not mono-cultural, and most
interstellar cultures are not mono-specific (i.e. are made up many
species). I want to break free of the Trekish tendency to turn alien
species into racial stereotypes.

Thinking along these lines, I decided that interstellar societies would
have to evolve a set of universal protocols and customs, to facilitate
trade, travel, and cultural exchange between radically alien cultures.
These protocols and customs would then become the basis of an interstellar
"MetaCulture", and legal structures analagous to present-day International
Law. Much the same seems to have occurred to the inventors of the
"MetaLaws" you've described.

But IIRC, you didn't tell us *who* came up with these MetaLaws. You mention
them figuring in a science fiction novel, but you didn't give its author or
title. Details, please?

+ GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Nature abhors normality. It can't go too long without a mutant."
                        --Dr Blockhead

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 02:46:15 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Families in Traveller

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> said:
>
>One of my players wrote the following after my campaign finished this week.
>He'd be interested in the thoughts of the TML on his questions on families
>and merchants generally...
>- ---
>Twilight's Peak: Steve on Kira

[snippage]

Now *that's* role-playing. Kudos to your friend Steve for original thinking.

One of the reasons I came up with the "Life Events" generation system
(posted to the list back in the summer) was to help players fill out such
often-neglected aspects of their characters as family history, past
relationships, marriage, divorce, children, and so on. Most Traveller
characters are in their thirties and forties. Only a few of these people
are likely to be loners, celibates, confirmed bachelors, drifters, etc.
Most are going to be typical human (or other) beings, with relationships,
kids, significant others. I tend to assume that a PC starts the game single
and at loose ends, but there's no reason they shouldn't have a spouse
waiting for them somewhere, or an ex-spouse after them for alimony, or an
on-board relationship (either PC or NPC).

I'm impressed by Steve's attempt to play a 'feminine' female character; to
make them easier to play, my own female characters tend to be intentionally
rather 'butch' - in some cases more macho than my male characters! Heh -
and I had the hypocritical gall to blast Verhoeven for his
'testosterone-pumped' women!

Thanks for the thought-provoking post.

+ GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Nature abhors normality. It can't go too long without a mutant."
                        --Dr Blockhead

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:52:47 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: TML extract.... not urgent

Andy - this went on the list from me for comment - *I* think that it's
interesting! ;-)

Dom


One of my players wrote the following after my campaign finished this week.
He'd be interested in the thoughts of the TML on his questions on families
and merchants generally...

Dom (if people are interested I'll post some write ups to the list soon).

- ---
Twilight's Peak: Steve on Kira

I don't like playing opposite-sex characters. It confuses the hell out of
me when people do it. I also don't think I can play women particularly
well, so I try to steer clear. Usually.

I joined Dominic's already-established game with Greg and Allison.
Together, with Jac (Captain) and Rob (gunner) we made five. Dominic had a
couple of pre-generated characters and gave them to Greg and myself.
(Allison rolled her own.) Pregenerated characters suit me because I cannot
be bothered with the hassle of rolling up. I am lazy. By chance, my
character was female but my initial thought was to ignore that. I planned
to play a bloke, as usual.

Dominic introduced the game. We were joining the crew of the Empress
Nichole, which was a few men short of a crew. In particular, it needed a
pilot and an engineer, positions Greg and Allison filled. Me, I was the
steward. Unfortunately, the Captain required that each crew member invest
Cr:15,000 in the "Partnership." I looked at my mustering out benefits:
none. I looked at Greg's - he had sixty grand. Hmmm. I had a problem.

(I guess I could have discussed it with Dominic. He would probably have
given the character some cash to allow me to join the crew, but it didn't
cross my mind. As far as I was concerned, my character was broke.)

I don't know where it came from, but I had a flash of inspiration: "Greg,
let's be married. I'll play your wife." There was a look of horror on his
face, and he refused. I started getting excited about the idea: I've never
played in a married couple before (I am not married myself) and it struck
me as not only a challenge, but also utterly different. It took me ten
minutes to convince Greg. He agreed reluctantly, with one condition. We
weren't really married, but that's what we would tell everyone else. Fine.
I didn't mind. Say hello to Kira (me) and her husband, Art (Greg).

The game started.

To me, Traveller is about ordinary people in a fantastic universe. We're
not heroes saving the world, we don't have awesome powers and abilities.
We're simply a bunch of people trying to scrape a living. That's Traveller
at its best - and it's a good description of Dominic's game. Twilight's
Peak is in there somewhere, but mostly it's restaurants, hangovers, cargo,
fuel, management theory and business practice. Up until our first and only
firefight the only combat situation occurred when Hunter (Rob's gunner)
provoked Tlankhu (Allison's Aslan engineer) and was cuffed as a result.
Hunter pulled a gun which resulted in disciplinary hearings and Hunter
being sacked. Characters wander around in dressing gowns, clutching cups of
coffee rather than wearing cloth and brandishing snub pistols. As I said,
ordinary people.

I don't know if playing a wife changed my perceptions, but I became aware
of a blindspot in Traveller (actually, in most games). The thing about
ordinary people is that their lives are dominated by relationships. Couples
are everywhere. Girlfriends, boyfriends, husbands, wives - the world is
full of them. Yet what I find remarkable in Traveller is the sheer absense
of relationships. I don't mean rules and tables for determining star signs
and compatibility, but just that the feel of the game (in its adventures
and descriptions) ignores relationships.

Marriage seems particularly alien. I cut my roleplaying teeth on Traveller
but I don't ever remember reading anything that suggested that people got
married. Staterooms, for example, seem mighty cramped when you're sharing!

I put these thoughts aside (they had no effect on the game) and continued
playing.

A few weeks later I was chatting with some friends and they jokingly
suggested that I should become pregnant to spook Greg. I laughed, but the
idea lodged in my mind. I already knew that Kira's goal was to raise enough
money so she could settle down and raise a family (ordinary people,
remember). I was already paying close attention to the book-keeping. And
pregnancy, even unplanned pregnancy, seemed appropriate enough. (And hell,
if I was going to the trouble of playing a woman, why not go the distance?)

Of course, if Traveller lacked when it came to accommodating married
couples, families were right out. Yet where are the family-run Free
Traders? Ships with kids aboard, ships passed down from generation to
generation. Ships that are homes as well as businesses. Think about it for
a while. I did. So where are they?

Once I had decided that I was going to be pregnant, the trick was finding
the right moment for the announcement. I also discovered (to my surprise)
that it wasn't going to be easy. To my surprise, I was nervous.

It was several weeks before the opportunity arose.

Our one and only firefight had far-reaching consequences. Kira wasn't
personally involved in the incident, she was brooding aboard the Empress,
but the pivotal moment took place during the escape. In order to appear
"natural" in front of some cops, Art kissed the Captain. It was just a
short kiss, hardly romantic or passionate. The Captain was as shocked as
everyone else. (Actually, it was unlike Art. Unfortunately, Greg was away
and Art had been "loaned" to Nickey who was planning on joining the group.
I don't think Greg would have kissed the Captain, but it was too late to go
back.) Comments were rife, particularly concerning what Kira would do to
Art should she ever find out. But, as it happened, everyone kept quiet (at
least, around Kira) and she didn't find out. Not for a few weeks, certainly.

The trouble started, as it inevitably does, at a restaurant. I don't know
what the Captain was up to, but she was drunk and playing sexual politics.
After blowing hot and cold over Eneri (our new crewmember), she dragged me
aside and told me about The Kiss. That Art snogged her. She sounded
pleased. With nothing more to go on, I assumed the Captain had encouraged
him. My head spun - as we weren't really married it shouldn't really matter
whom Art kissed. But if Kira was pregnant, now was the time to do something
about it. So I stormed across the restaurant, threw a drink over Art, and
stomped out. The Captain tried to follow, but I made it quite clear that I
wasn't happy with her, either. I took a taxi back to the Empress, alone,
and had a good weep.

Back at the restaurant, Eneri decided to see how I was. Unfortunately that
left Art and the Captain alone in the restaurant, which set me off again.
And then Eneri asked, "What's the matter? Tell me about it."

It went quiet. Everyone was watching. It was now or never. And I froze - I
had major stage fright. Eventually (it seemed like ages) I blurted "I'm
pregnant!" Everyone fell about laughing. Bastards! They're not supposed to
do that - this is serious stuff. Greg's face was a picture - as was
Dominic's. I could see him mentally tossing aside any hope of us meeting
the scenario.

As for me, I was stunned. I had said it, and it was the hardest thing I
have done in ages. I hadn't really recovered before we ended that night.
Art proposed to me (properly) and I accepted and that was more-or-less it
for that week.

What I hadn't expected was that announcing the fact that Kira was pregnant
would be so liberating. Afterwards, once I had recovered from the shock, I
felt good. Really, really good - it was a buzz that lasted a full 24 hours.
(I had a great day at work.) Roleplaying has hit me like that once or twice
before, but it's a rare feeling. Certainly I would never have imagined that
announcing myself to be pregnant in a noisy, distracting games club would
recreate feelings that have resulted from some of the most intense games
I've played. Remarkable.

And to think that all this arose from a quirk on my character sheet and me
grabbing the opportunity to spook Greg. Of course it backfired on me as
Greg returned the compliment. In spades . . .

Greg was ill the following week, but he had explained to Dominic that he
wasn't completely happy with the game. So Art walked out on me. I was,
well, spooked. And then some. Over the next two sessions (covering a mere
48 hours game time - Greg was actually present for the second session) we
scoured the starport but could not find him. Two sessions of me being teary
and upset, the Captain rubbing everyone up the wrong way and Tlankhu, er,
finding her own entertainment. (Trust me, it played better than it sounds.)

Then Art turned up. Just like that. I cried and accused him of leaving me.
His explanation wasn't brilliant, and I became more upset. While this went
on, the Captain really upset Tlankhu. Big time. Tlankhu stalked off and
refused to answer her comlink. Gone for good, I thought.

It took a tragedy to bring her back. While I snarled at the Captain,
explaining the finer points of Aslan etiquette, Art searched for Tlankhu.
Then we got a call from the cops. Art had been involved in an incident. Oh
god. Then we were directed to the infirmary. Oh god please no oh god. Art's
been injured. He has been knifed, bad. No no no. And - he died. Kira went .
.. . well, she just went. I was stunned, and turned to Greg. "Bastard," I
said.

Tlankhu comforted me at the infirmary, and lead me to where our ship was
being refitted. It turned out that while Art was "missing" he had
redecorated our room. And he had built a wooden cot. More tears, and
Tlankhu left me alone. (I've not done this much weeping in a game before. I
probably wouldn't describe Kira as especially emotional. It's just the way
it worked out.)

The game wrapped up shortly after that. The Empress jumped and Dominic
called the evening to a close. It seemed clear that it was more than just
the evening though, as cracks were beginning to appear. Tlankhu had had
enough and planned to resign as soon as possible. Kira needed to pick up
the pieces of her life and the Empress Nichole, with a Captain she disliked
and its growing reputation for piracy, probably wasn't the best place to do
that.

So there it ended.

We never got to Twilight's Peak. We never saw much of Dominc's scenario.
The Fifth Frontier War brewed in the background, but it was all
overshadowed by the emotional turmoil generated by a few ordinary people
and their very ordinary problems. And I wouldn't have it any other way -
I've not played in such an entertaining game in a long while.

Next week I am playing an immortal elf in a political fantasy. Somehow, and
despite playing a more "fantastic" character, I think it's going to be an
anticlimax.

Copyright (c) 1997 Steve Hatherley

- -----

I have Steve's address if anyone wants to talk to him directly.


    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:43:26 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re: MST3K and Leroy and Douglas)

At 11:18 PM 11/16/97 -0600, you wrote:

>Okay, let's turn this to a Traveller post.
>
>6500 feet. Let's see, that's about, what, 1,981 meters? In a forest.
>
>ObTrav:
>
>First question: Are there TL 7 (marginal TL 8) rifles that have that kind
>of accuracy at range, in the hands of a skilled sniper? (This all assumes
>you are allowed to use a high-powered rifle for hunting, and have a clear
>shot in a forest for almost 2 klicks). Would a 12.7mm rifle do it
>(especially since the .50 BMG is such an accurate round)? I know the Barret
>Model 82 has the oomph to do it, but I am not sure about it's accuracy. I
>would think things like turbulence would add up at such a range.

The US Army's standard sniper rifle, the M-24 SWS, is accurate out to about
900m on man-sized targets.  That's a very accurate 7.62mm.  I don't know of
any commercial hunting rifle that would be legal in Germany that would
maintain the ability to drop a full grown deer at the range listed.

Bullets tend to fly straight until they hit something.  Tests have shown
that even light branches will deflect a .50 BMG round, causing a tumble.

>I don't have T4. In MT, this is listed as an Impossible task for a rifle
>(no matter the type of weapon -- it is in the Distant range band). In TNE,
>the 14.5 mm "crunch gun," fired from a bipod, has a range of 300 m (315 m
>with a scope), so that's extreme range there too, which is also an
>Impossible task.

In designing weapons for T4, I've found it difficult at best to get a good
long range weapon.  The shot isn't impossible, just *highly* improbable.

>So according to the rules, the chances of doing this are slim and none.
>Second question (to the millitary wonks with experience in such matters):
>Are the rules accurate on this? My feeling is that they are, but I have
>never done such long-range shooting (alas, the gun range I have shot at is
>limited to a piddly 100 m or so).

If the shooter took several turns to aim at a target that was not aware of
the threat, fired from a supported position, with a weapon and ammo load he
was familiar with..  maybe.  I'd like to know what was used to get a
first-shot kill on a large animal at nearly 2km..  a sabot round?

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 04:44:10 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Families in Traveller

>One of the reasons I came up with the "Life Events" generation system
>(posted to the list back in the summer) was to help players fill out such

Would you please re-post this Life Events generator?  I wasn't part of this
list back in the summer.
Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:36:21 -0500
From: "Svenson, Gregory (FL51)" <gsvenson@space.honeywell.com>
Subject: Re: Families in Traveller

In the game I have been playing in for about 10 months now, we are
operating a subsidized liner crewed by three couples and their children.
The youngest couple (Ed, our navigator/broker and Liza our electronics
person) have three children ranging from 1 to 8 years old and are
raising and schooling them on the ship in their off hours. One couple
(Capt. Dan and Laurie, the ships medic) have two teenagers who work on
the ship. The oldest couple (me, Sven, the engineer and Paula, our
security officer) have one adult child and one teenager serving in the
crew, an adult child working in our sales office at one of the key
starports we operate from and a younger child in boarding school back on
our home world. Liza is my sister and Laurie is Ed's sister. The ship is
jointly owned by our parents (only two more years left on the mortgage),
etc.

We took the tact that families are vital to any real life situation and
decided to try to play out how operating a family owned and operated
ship would really work in the Traveller universe. The game takes a
different flavor when you are working on something and realize that you
have missed dinner with you wife or when a passenger takes an unwelcome
interest in your spouse...

Greg Svenson
gsvenson@space.honeywell.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:32:52 -0500
From: "Clark, William" <Clark@bessemer.com>
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data

About two years ago, I went on a hunt across the Internet for sector data.  At that time, I was able
to collect information on ~16500 worlds.  Most of the information came from the DGP files, the
rest from various sources which I can not remember who came up with in all cases.  The list of
sectors for which I have information for is: Alpha Crucis, Amdukan, Antares, Core, Corridor,
Dagudashaag, Daibei, Dark Nebula, Delphi, Deneb, Diaspora, Ealiyasiyw, Empty Quarter,
Foreven, Fornast, Glimmerdrift Reaches, Gushemege, Gvurrdon, Hinterworlds, Hlakhoi, Ilelish,
Iwahfuah, Ley Sector, Lishun, Magyar, Massilia, Mendan, Old Expanses, Reaver's Deep, Reft
Sector, Riftspan Reaches, Solomani Rim, Spica, Spinward Marches, Staihaia'yo, Trojan Reach,
Verge, Vland, Yiklerzdanzh, Zarushagar.  I do not know the accuracy of all of this data and some
of the sectors contain partial information.  I have all of this data in a fixed format Text file, as well
as a number of other formats.  I can place it in almost any format that anyone wants.

I originally collected the information because I wanted to write a program to reference it during
game play.  I was using a 16MHz 386SX laptop with the data in a MSAccess 2.0 database and a
program written in VB3.  The program was then upgrade to using VB4.  I still have the program if
people are interested.  It was based on the TNE version of Traveller.  It contain the ability to view
the universe, sectors, subsectors, basic world information, track some rudimentary character
information, generate passenger and freight/cargo information (down to individual lots and based
on character skills in the adventure group), generate travel times from world to world through
jump, contains the entire equipment list from the TNE rule book with the ability to show prices,
modified by Exchange Rates for any world (the adventure group determined the original world the
characters started from as a reference point), print the equipment prices, and a few other odds
and ends.  Please be aware that the data is from the 1100 time frame.  I was using TNE rules in
that era.

I am in the process of upgrading the program to run against a MSAcess 8.0 database, using VB5.
The rudiments of the sector and world information viewing are designed and working against the
original MSAccess 2.0 database.  If anyone is interested in this, I could see if I could make it
available.

I am currently working on the data model for the underlying database to support the program.  I
plan on including as much information as possible.  If there is interest from anyone about what I
am doing, I would be more than happy to form a discussion on it.  I will also be asking a number of
questions to the list as I am going through the model and program to better clarify certain details
on how the information available is used and how to best represent it.

As an example, travel zone codes are listed with the main world data.  Travel zone codes,
according to one of the Traveller products, can refer to a government, world or system.  How
should the travel zone codes (specifically Red and Amber) from the main world data be applied?
To the main world only or the entire system?

More questions to follow.  Like I said, if anyone is interested, please let me know.

Bill Clark
clark@bessemer.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2105
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 17 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2106



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Imperial Army Essay
Re: Crimes Against the Empire (longish)
Traveller on the Screen
Traveller on the Screen
Cheapest piracy defense yet
RE: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re: MST 3K and Leroy and Douglas)
Re: Yet more piracy
Re: Compiled Sector Data
Re: Families in Traveller
Re: Raiders vs. pirates
Re: Cheapest piracy defense yet
re: Improved Terrapin
Re: Piracy and fleet deployment

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 03:32:10 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Imperial Army Essay

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By request:


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For purposes of examining the Army as a mature force, and since it's where my campaign is set, the example we will be looking at is the Lunion Subsector of the Spinward Marches in 1105.  To start at the top, we have:

ARMY SUPREME COMMAND (Capital/Core)

This is the highest command authority for the Imperial Army.  This command is concerned with the long range planning and defense of the entire Imperium.  This unit organizes all R&D, mass equipment upgrades, and changes in Army doctrine and regulations.  It has little say in the day-to-day managing of line units; in fact it controls only one unit directly: The Imperial Guard.

DOMAIN COMMAND: DENEB (Depot/Deneb)

Even though the Domain of Deneb does not have an archduke in 1105, the Army maintains a level of command for the purpose of strategic planning "behind the claw."  Officers assigned here have a better focus on the problems and threats facing their area of operations.

Deneb Command also oversees the allocation of Imperial funds to the Sector forces.  Many worlds in the Imperial Core do not bother with extensive military development, and pay into a general fund rather than raising units that are three years from the border in the first place.  The Supreme Command allocates this money as block grants to the domains, who use it to fund projects of local need.  Many times, this money is passed down the line with no strings attached.  This is generally the case in Deneb, due to the wildly varying threats the region faces.

Domain level commands control a small group of elite troops, rarely more than a division, who act as a "fire brigade" for the command.  Since this is traditionally the Marine mission, there is a great deal of friction over these unit's existence.

SPINWARD MARCHES HIGH COMMAND (Rhylanor/Rhylanor)

The sector high command is the highest level of command that directly commands regular Army units.  In a wartime situation, units leaving their home Subsector come under the control of the sector command for the duration of their transit.  Leaving this control only when the unit either returns home or is handed off to a local command for combat.  The sector command controls the reserves and logistics for the Army when it mobilizes.

The sector command also distributes funding to the Subsector Armies.  Since planning is done decades in advance, each Subsector force submits an annual update on its projected needs over the next ten years.  Budget allocations are made based on both these figures, and on the needs of the sector as a whole.

The sector command controls the strategic reserve for the sector.  This consists of all Army units out of their home Subsector and in transit, as well as all colonial forces (see below) committed to action.

LUNION ARMY HEADQUARTERS (Lunion/Lunion)

The Subsector Army is the heart of the Imperial defense.  Each Subsector crafts its force to meet its unique needs and threats.  Lunion's main threat is seen as the Sword Worlds Confederation.  Most of Lunion's planning is based around a series of scenarios concerning a SWC attack on the Spinward worlds of the Subsector.  Subsector command also gathers intelligence about enemy activities and intentions; passing these nuggets of information to Navy Intelligence in an attempt to paint a complete picture of what is happening beyond the Imperial border.

Subsector Headquarters is where the actual purchasing of equipment takes place.  Within guidelines from higher headquarters, each Subsector is pretty free to equip its forces as it likes.  This leads to some oddities, like Five Sister's small but potent Army, universally equipped with battledress and fusion weapons.  Lunion has steered a more predictable course; building fairly standard TL14-15 tank and infantry units.  As is true for most Spinward Marches commands, Lunion Army makes sure that all vehicles and personal armor are equipped with mind-shields in case of conflict with telepathic Zhodani troops.

Operationally, the Army HQ coordinates the actions of its forces, plus those assigned to it by higher command, in the defense of the Subsector.  If offensive operations are called for, Lunion forces may be seconded to the assault force at the Sector Command's discretion.

The current commander of the Lunion Army is General Oiwaeas, an Aslan from Strouden.  A 30-year veteran, Oiwaeas is a decorated veteran of the 4th Frontier War, as well as innumerable border incidents with the Sword Worlders.  Oiwaeas is much beloved by his troops as a fighting leader, and his sense of humor is legendary.  (During one incident, a Sword World commander insinuated that Oiwaeas need to go to the "cat box."  After learning from an aide what was meant by the insult, Oiwaeas made a point of dumping sand over the defeated SW officer's head, remarking "I understand this is the proper thing for a cat to do with its waste."  To this day his personal command vehicle is named CatBox.)

THE STROUDENESE ROYAL ARMY (Strouden/Lunion)

This is where the troops and tanks are found.  Strouden is a Hi-pop, Industrial world of the Lunion Subsector.  Its total population is 8.3x10^9; mostly human with a significant (6%) Aslan minority.  The planet is ruled by a constitutional monarchy.  The Grand Prince controls the various government agencies, who operate as a meritocracy.

Strouden's Planetary Defense Force has approx. 7 million soldiers active at any one time.  An additional 5 million can be found as reservists, home guards, and local militias.

10% of the Strouden Army is pledged to the Imperial Army.  These units receive TL14-15 equipment and training.  This amounts to 35 division sized units (25 Lift Infantry, 10 Grav Tank) and a smattering of specialist units (1 Rapid Interface Infantry Brigade, several battalion and smaller Civil Action, Intelligence, Heavy Engineer, etc.)

The remainder of the units are organized as the Royal Stroudenese Army.  This formidable force can field 12 Field Armies equipped to TL13 standard, along with 2 Corps equipped to TL14 (The King's Own Guards and The Landing Warders)

The local Imperial units and the RSA engage in regular wargames against one another.  The RSA maintains a training area staffed by troops who use Sword Worlds tactics and equipment for a realistic training environment; and many Imperial units, both Marine and Army have praised it for the realism of the exercises.

Although the Imperial element of Strouden's forces is answerable to the Subsector command, the local government always has the right to veto any off-world deployment.  This is a risky move, as it invites Imperial displeasure, and any world making such a stand would best be ready to present a very convincing case before the Moot.

The Imperial Army units on Strouden are fed, paid, clothed, and housed by the RSA.  The Imperium picks up the bill for the high tech equipment and training/deployment costs.  This benefits the Royal government greatly, since they get a resident force at little expense to themselves.

COLONIAL FORCES

In times of great peril, such as a major war, planetary forces may be volunteered for Imperial service.  Such forces are referred to as "Colonial Units," and are generally considered to be of a lesser quality than front-line troops.  Regardless, these troops can take a great deal of pressure of harried commanders by assuming garrison and security roles, freeing up units for the front lines.  Since these are not Imperial units, their equipment and training can vary wildly, making it hazardous to mix them with Imperial units.  During the 4th Frontier War, there was one recorded case of an Imperial Marine point-defense system firing on approaching colonials because their non-standard G-carriers were not in the fire control computer's memory.

Comments? Questions?

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- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  
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------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:06:35 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Crimes Against the Empire (longish)

>Take rape, for example.  Why is this an extraditable crime, yet assault
>isn't?  After all, rape is essentially assault with torture (both physical
>and psychological) thrown in.  What about a species where one sex isn't
>sapient, or is less intelligent than the other?  What about species with
>mating seasons, when one or both sexes aren't thinking clearly?
>
>My opinion is that Imperial crimes should be major ones, and only major ones.
> This is especially true before the Empire is well-established.  Painting in
>very broad strokes:
>
>1) Treason
>2) Restraint of interstellar trade
>3) Ecological destruction
>
>Specific other crimes would be fit into these catagories.  For example,
>destruction of Imperial property would be a form of treason, as would killing
>an Imperial noble or official (these being, in effect, an attack on the
>emperor himself).

I get some kind of Deja vu all over again. Someone wrote an article in
Challenge about Imperial law with the same flaws (carbon copy of US law)
and someone sent a letter with almost exactly the same criticism. Have I
entered a timeloop here?
BTW I totally agree with Rob about the Imperiums law only deal with major
crime and crimes comitted against Imperial officials. Dulinor clearly
wanted something more along the lines of the original poster but that was
never mentioned to be "the old ways" of the Imperium.

The idea of local laws ruling over crimes against individuals also makes it
easier to create plots and roleplaying sessions.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:00:11 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Traveller on the Screen

Another idea:  movies aren't cheap, how about a TV series....

....call it 'Free Trader Beowulf', and make it a low-level yarn about a Free
Trader crew caught up in the Fifth Frontier War.


BTW:  more cast ideas for Traveller:  The Muppet Adventure

Ine Givar terrorist:    Animal
Branj Dilgadiin:        Zoot (ok, so he's got hair, I know!)

Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
Clubs!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:00:11 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Traveller on the Screen

Another idea:  movies aren't cheap, how about a TV series....

....call it 'Free Trader Beowulf', and make it a low-level yarn about a Free
Trader crew caught up in the Fifth Frontier War.


BTW:  more cast ideas for Traveller:  The Muppet Adventure

Ine Givar terrorist:    Animal
Branj Dilgadiin:        Zoot (ok, so he's got hair, I know!)

Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
Clubs!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:31:38 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Cheapest piracy defense yet

David P. Summers writes:
>Thu, 13 Nov 1997 20:04:20 -0800, shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
>>>(and we haven't gotten to how you are supporting all these
>>>ships in systems without any bases)
> 
>>  Actually we have.
> 
>There is more to basing a ship than annual maintenance.

You can add more (and with considerable reason on your side, I concede), but
as far as the rules are concerned, the annual maintenance is all you
absolutely must have (Though I believe that FF&S2 includes rules for
calculating how much space you must allocate for so-and-so long time
spent away from a base, am I right?)
 
>>>>And btw. if these merchants really did get a kick-ass computer, won't that
>>>>be really, really bad news for a potential pirate?
>>>
>>>So he doesn't attack those ships.
>>
>>  Umm, the authorities can't tell that a ship has upgraded arms
>>and computer, but a pirate _can_ tell? Neat.
> 
>No, he doesn't attack the ships that are armed at all.

You may want to reconsider that if you want to keep your side of the debate
alive at all. Otherwise all a merchant needs to be completely safe is to
reduce his cargo capacity by a few tons and install some turrets. Hey, he
dosen't even have to install real weapons in them. That has got to be the
cheapest piracy deterrent proposed yet!
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:02:17 -0500
From: "Smith, Greg" <Greg_Smith@innolog_starc.innolog.com>
Subject: RE: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re: MST 3K and Leroy and Douglas)

Marine Corps lore speaks to a sniper taking out an enemy sitting at his
campfire with a round from the .50 cal sniper rifle from the distance of
just over a mile....  about 6000 feet....

Greg

> ----------
> From: 	Joseph R. Dietrich[SMTP:yikes@evansville.net]
> Sent: 	Monday, November 17, 1997 12:18 AM
> To: 	TML
> Subject: 	Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller
> (Re: MST3K and Leroy and Douglas)
> 
> <hassan chop!>
> 
> > You *wish* I had been a college student all my life.  Let's see this
> is
> > late-1997, D.K. outta be getting out of the Federal lockup about now
> > (Federal judges don't like having a revolver put in their mouths),
> we
> > could put him on the job.  J.P. personally watched him bullseye a
> > deerhead in Black Forest at 6500 ft.
> 
> <hassan chop!>
> 
> > If you *really* are taking this to private mail, I'll be there.  We
> can
> > talk about anything you want to.  Just don't chicken out.
> 
> <hassan chop!>
> 
> You know, this post, although ludicrous, is waaayyy off Traveller and
> also
> poor form. I have a suggestion. If you decide to take something
> off-list,
> just take it off-list. Don't announce "Okay, I'm taking this off list
> now!"
> It's just plain immature and silly.
> 
> Okay, let's turn this to a Traveller post.
> 
> 6500 feet. Let's see, that's about, what, 1,981 meters? In a forest.
> 
> ObTrav:
> 
> First question: Are there TL 7 (marginal TL 8) rifles that have that
> kind
> of accuracy at range, in the hands of a skilled sniper? (This all
> assumes
> you are allowed to use a high-powered rifle for hunting, and have a
> clear
> shot in a forest for almost 2 klicks). Would a 12.7mm rifle do it
> (especially since the .50 BMG is such an accurate round)? I know the
> Barret
> Model 82 has the oomph to do it, but I am not sure about it's
> accuracy. I
> would think things like turbulence would add up at such a range.
> 
> I don't have T4. In MT, this is listed as an Impossible task for a
> rifle
> (no matter the type of weapon -- it is in the Distant range band). In
> TNE,
> the 14.5 mm "crunch gun," fired from a bipod, has a range of 300 m
> (315 m
> with a scope), so that's extreme range there too, which is also an
> Impossible task.
> 
> So according to the rules, the chances of doing this are slim and
> none.
> Second question (to the millitary wonks with experience in such
> matters):
> Are the rules accurate on this? My feeling is that they are, but I
> have
> never done such long-range shooting (alas, the gun range I have shot
> at is
> limited to a piddly 100 m or so).
> 
> Joseph R. Dietrich
> yikes@evansville.net
> 
> Appropriate quote:
> "If I were to waste another word on you, it would be to call you a
> knave."
> -- William Shakespeare
> 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:58:12 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Yet more piracy

David P. Summers writes:

>Yeah, but your scout has had time to pick is position, reduce his
>signature, and has been loaded with good sensors.  Being of "competant"
>design means he will have similar sensor, have to deal with the jump
>signature, and then have to move through the system finding people. 
>Your picket is just going to have to jump away.

Two points: If the scout moves into a system and settles down quietly, he
can never be completely sure that he wasn't observed by an enemy scout.
And while a ship with less-than-factor-A weapons cannot be sure of
destroying even a small ship in one combat round, one with a spinal
mount has a very good chance of doing so. So a quiet scout runs the risk
of being destroyed by a surprise attack. and if he is trying to hide,
the attacker can be sure that he won't find a visiting battleship
squadron near the scout when he jumps in. It is a much safer idea to keep
on the move so that you are never within weapons range of any place where
you were a week ago. Second point: It dosen't matter that you can be seen
easily, whether it be because you are moving around or because you just
jumped in, because once you are no longer tied to arriving near a planet,
space is so big that you can easily select a spot in the system where the
odds against finding a welcoming committee are literally astronomical. So
you jump in, take sensor readings and jump out again (or stay until some
poor patrol ship has _almost_ reached firing range). All in near-perfect
safety.

>Even if he didn't, arming him would be useless unless you expect him to
>fight his way out of the situation.

No, arming him would be useless if you never expected to use the ship
for anything other than scout duty. If you want greater flexibility
you will arm the ship. Not that it would make any difference as far as
dealing with invaders go, since the scout won't be anywhere near where
an invader would appear (at least, that must be what he is fervently
praying for ;-).

>>By forcing the enemy to concentrate into modest-size forces, you are
>>reducing the number of forces the enemy can have, and thus the number of
>>systems they can interdict before reaction.
> 
>And, since they face dispersed forces, they can count on winning every
>battle. So your dispersed forces are only useful if the enemy doesn't
>show up.

This is another of those disputed opinions stated as bald facts. 
They can also count on winning every battle if there are no dispersed
forces at all, only more so. Only difference is that they can win a lot
more if they don't need to concentrate _their_ forces. So our dispersed
forces are useful if the enemy shows up in fewer places than he would
otherwise have done. You can't claim that this point hasen't already
been made (though I must have missed your answer to it).
 
>>Every set of combat rules I've seen allows jumps in combat.
> 
>Well, in fact Traveller history is full of ships catching
>ships.  I think the canon explination is jump suppressors.

Bald statement warning: You are wrong. (OK, I'd better soften that up:
ASAIK there is no mention of a useful jump suppressor at the relevant
TLs. I'm not even sure that the effect has ever been mentioned in any
Traveller publication).

>[Regarding piracy that does not operate out of friendly states...]
>We have covered this.  Yes, piracy operating like this has occured
>and, in spite of your characterizing it as just rumours, happens
>today.

People in motorboats boarding surface vessels. When was the last time a
ship was hunted down and captured by a ship of equal or greater cash
value?

>It also would be easier to do in the Imperium than it is today.

Let me guess: People in helicopters swarm up from concealed hangars on
the surface as the ship makes it final approach to the starport...

Hey, it is about as likely as one ship "sneaking" up on another in deep
space...



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
"Facts are stubborn things, but not half so stubborn as fallacies."
                - Stella Maynard in "Anne of the Island"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:28:44 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data

I would be interested in that Database of sector data you wrote a Visual
Basic 4.0 program to access;
However I do not have any Database programs.  All I have is a copy of VB
4.0 myself.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:14:21 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Re: Families in Traveller

SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com> wrote:
> [a great post]

Thanks, Steve and Dominic, for posting that!
Folks, _THIS_ is what roleplaying is all about.


Comments follow:
> Dom (if people are interested I'll post some write ups to the list soon).

Go fer it!

> I don't like playing opposite-sex characters. It confuses the hell out of
> me when people do it. I also don't think I can play women particularly
> well, so I try to steer clear.

Just as a point of reference, I'll play characters of practically any race
and gender.  I've been told I do a tolerably good job (but there are people
who get a little freaked out by it).

> To me, Traveller is about ordinary people in a fantastic universe.

I've always treated PCs as being a little bit "special".  While not heros
with fantastic powers who save the world, the PCs _are_ the ones that have
the interesting and/or exciting things happen to them, rather than the
average folks who have average lives and nobody really notices (including
them).

But still, I feel that the "slice of life" approach does apply.


> Yet where are the family-run Free Traders? Ships with kids aboard, ships
> passed down from generation to generation. Ships that are homes as well as
> businesses. Think about it for a while. I did. So where are they?

In general, a "family" ship would have to be designed slightly differently
from the stock Free Trader ... OR, you could use a stock ship that way, but
wouln't be able to cary many (if any) passengers (which would put a major
dent in profitability).

IMHO, there are a few good reasons why the kind of ship that a family lives
in wouldn't be commonly seen:
1) For a merchant ship, space is at a premium.  Small kids and non-skilled
   family members cost life-support and take up space that could otherwise
   be earning money*.
2) Space is (relatively) dangerous; in my universe, there was an unspoken
   but fairly continous sentiment that "space is no place for kids".
3) Given the Traveller rules, most player characters tended to be relatively
   old (I think the average age was somewhere between the mid-thirties and
   mid-fourties for most PCs in my games).  Most humans who are going to
   start a family generally do so by about that time.

* Converting 4 tons of cargo space into an extra stateroom costs the ship 
  Cr 4000/trip of lost freight revenue (or presumably even more profits
  from trading).  At a nominal 24 trips/year, that's Cr 96,000/year; at the
  approximate equivalency rate ($2US=Cr1), planetside housing looks awfully
  attractive for the spouse and kids.  Even moreso when you look at the life
  support costs for a year.

I've assumed that a good fraction of the crew of ships that have regular
runs have a family "planetside" on one of the worlds they serve.  This
obviously applies only to crewmembers aboard ships with regular runs and
good (and steady) pay.  For folks who have a family, this is the sort of
job that's most appealing (and also the one that's got a low adventure
potential).

So, at least in my universe, ship crews for "tramp*" ships tend to be single
or childless couples (childless because they either haven't had kids yet,
or had them long enough ago that they're on their own, or don't intend to
have kids at all).  These are the folks that have the adventures.

* Spacehand slang term for a ship that doesn't have a regular run, but
  instead jumps from world to world at the whim of the captain and the
  available traffic.

I've had a few characters that were in some sort of "couple" relationship:

A Vargr character of mine (Dr. Gzoe Zanore, MD) was the ship's surgeon on
a free trader*.  He had a long-running (and usually long-distance) relationship
with a female Vargr who was a "boomer"+.  They met when she was with his
ship, and they usually managed to meet every few months when they were both
at the same world for a while.  The campaign ended just about when she got
pregnant (funny thing, that).

* You should be asking yourself "Why does a free trader need a surgeon,
  particularly one who specialized in space medicine and trauma?".  The fact
  that he was doubled as the ship's #2 laser turret gunner may give you
  a clue.

+ Spacehand slang term for a crewmember who doesn't hire on "permanently",
  but hires on for a few jumps or until she gets a better offer.  Most
  captains don't like to hire boomers, but (particularly when trade is
  booming and there's a shortage of skilled crew) sometimes they have to.

I've also played an ex-scout who ran a detached-duty scoutship; the
archetype of the "laconic scout" stereotype, he was a good pilot and a
competent engineer, but almost useless as a navigator.  I don't know how or
where (we never played it out), but he had a shy, mousy sort of woman as the
navigator.  She was an unpaid volunteer (but a permanent crewmember), and
clearly in love with him.  He was (of course) oblivious, and she was to shy
to say or do anything about it, so she followed him around the Marches in a
scoutship that was old enough to be a museum piece, and hoped that he'd
notice her someday.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:45:13 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs. pirates

David P. Summers writes:
>This is because I see the Imerium loosing maybe a few cargos
>a year (at most one every couple months) in only the backwater
>system.  This is a lot less cost than basing ships on
>multiple worlds in all 10,000 or so systems it has.

It is also completely contrary to canon which has pirate ships show up in
backwater systems a lot oftener than that.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:44:35 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Cheapest piracy defense yet

At 04:31 PM 11/17/97 +0100, you wrote:

>You can add more (and with considerable reason on your side, I concede), but
>as far as the rules are concerned, the annual maintenance is all you
>absolutely must have (Though I believe that FF&S2 includes rules for
>calculating how much space you must allocate for so-and-so long time
>spent away from a base, am I right?)

Under FFS2 you can calculate how many provisions you carry with you.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:46:41 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Improved Terrapin

At 03:31 PM 11/14/97 -0800, Bruce wrote:
>
>(Nice design by Mr. Berry removed)
>
>One thing you might consider adding is a science-optimized sensor - possibly
>even a really big one in a folding array, or at the very least a small one.

I played around with that for bit, and I didn't see where the gain in
resolution offset the increased demand for resources on what is basically a
merchant.

If I do an IISS variant, then I'll stick great mucking sensors all over it.
- --
+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
|    "But think of Korea, of Guadalcanal, of  |
| Belleau Wood, of Viet Nam.  The H-bomb did  |
| not abolish the infantryman; it made him    |
| essential... and he has the toughest job of |
| all and should be honored."                 |
|                       - Robert Heinlein     |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:38:45 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy and fleet deployment

David P. Summers writes:

> Wed, 12 Nov 1997 16:44:16 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
> 
>Well, I don't agree that every dispersed ship will be within one
>jump of it's destination.

No, but it is quite difficult to find a system that isn't within one jump
of a Class A starport or a naval base, which is surely where it would be
if it wasn't stationed in a marginal system.

>I also don't think you are going to be able to have all these forces jump
>blind to the front and start action, you are going to have collect them up
>an make sure they aren't jumping into system that have already been taken
or doing other things that don't make sense.

David, you can _never_ be sure that you are not jumping into a system that
has already been been taken. That is one of the crucial problems facing an
admiral in a Traveller universe. That's why it dosen't make sense to jump
into a system with empty tanks unless you absolutely, positively have to.

>[and if I was looking at what didn't make sense I would say
>that the background problem lies more in  scattering half your
>forces to all those backwater areas rather than piracy
>exisiting.]

You think it dosen't make sense to station your ships close to where they
are maintained, but you think that stationing patrol ships away from their
base would be prohibitively difficult? Could you please make up your mind?
Is it easy to maintain ships away from bases or is it hard?

>As to [armed merchant ships] being "indiffernt warships", if you have a
>convoy with, say, 10 merchants for each naval vessel the "indiferent"
>ability they have can well make a difference in a battle.

David, a warship with proper armor can beat up many times it's own tonnage
in ships with no armor, even if computers and armament are identical. And
we've already mentioned the downside in installing arms and high performance
computers in merchants. Sure, it can be done, and the resulting ships are
a bigger help than if they hadn't any arms at all, but that dosen't mean
that they are anywhere near as useful as a proper warship costing the same
amount of money. And you are the one who keeps insisting that the Imperium
would want the best value for their money, right? 

>>And btw. if these merchants really did get a kick-ass computer, won't that
>>be really, really bad news for a potential pirate?
> 
>So he doesn't attack those ships.

That reminds me of a standing joke in my role playing group: "We advance
until just before we are discovered!" How does he know before he has
committed himself to the attack?
 
>Well, no I don't.  Canon doesn't have military ships dispersed
>to _every_ system in the Imperium

Quite right, and I never said it did. Just that it ought to.

>(there would need to be a base in every system, if not on every world).

Not according to the rules.

>>You just argued (correctly, IMO) that scout forces would be safe from
>>interception because they don't have to go near a planet. Why in the
>>world do you suddenly feel that a courier has to risk jumping in anywhere
>>near a risk point?
> 
>Because the ship jumping in doesn't know where the enemy is

Precisely. So why dosen't he select a spot where the chances of finding a
patrol ship waiting are very low and jump in there, make his observations,
and get out before an enemy ship can get within shooting range? (You do
realize that detection ranges tned toi be longer than weapon ranges, don't
you?

>and will be out of fuel to jump away.

Not unless he is a total incompetent. You _never_ jump into a system with
empty tanks if you can help it.

>>>The cost of these losses (which would not occur if they weren't
>>>dispersed for piracy)
> 
>>Come again? You want the marginal systems to have no defenses at all.
> 
>And if you have dispersed ships to them in small numbers, they
>can be picked off by even modest sized forces.

Why do you repeat this as a bald statement of truth? Just by reading
elsewhere in the very same message you are responding to you must 
realize that it is at least disputed (Actually it is a bald truth 
that you CAN't pick off ships before they can jump away with modest
sized forces. You need at least cruisers to have even a chance of
picking off ships. If you play by the canonical rules, of course).
 
>Well, if the attacking force knows that you have disperesed their fleets,
>they know they can take a modest sized fleet and mop up.

And if you haven't dispersed some of your smaller ships (_not_, and I know
I've pointed this out to you numerous times before, all you fleets), then
they know that they can take a single ship and mop up. How you can
seriously suggest that this is an advantage is beyond me...

>As to being able destroy a ship before it jumps. If you are moving your
>dispersed forces around, they will be arriving low on fuel and can be
>picked off.

The first thing a patrol ship does when it arrives on station is to top
up its tanks. That can't be too difficult to realize.

>Regarding picking off the forces by jumping in, it is canon that you can
>jump in an defeat a local force.

In the sense that you can destroy them OR drive them off, yes. Any other
canonical example I'd like to have a page reference to.
 
>If it wasn't true, then much of Traveller military history is wrong.

Examples, please. I'd bet that they consist of capital ships duking it
out, not auxiliary vessels.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2106
***********************************

Traveller-digest     Monday, November 17 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2107



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Patrol ships and boats
Re: Leroy and Doug
Re: Metalaw
Re: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re: MST3K and Leroy...
Can we stop talking about 'stopping talking'?
Traveller: The Restaurant Era - Part 1.
A Prequel to Traveller: The Restaurant Era
Re: Families in Traveller
Apology
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2106
Crimes
Space Habitats
Pocket Empires Feedback
RE: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re: MST3K and Leroy and Douglas)
Re: Looking for.
Life Events - PC Background Generator (LONG)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:52:09 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Patrol ships and boats

Here are some CT designs I've worked out in connection with the Great Piracy
Debate. I know that they have been superceded by T4, but QSDS1.5 dosen't
handle different armor sized very well and I don't have any other T4 ship
design system, so I used my trusty _High Guard_. I hope you will find them
interesting or even useful.

None of the following designs account for architect's fee or the full cost of
prototypes, since these depend on the number of ships built. The _High Guard_
discount of 20% has been applied.

GENERIC TL12 PATROL SHIP, variant A

                                 Volume   Power  Cost
Hull 400 T Close structure [4]     400      -      24
Armor 0 (0%)                         -      -       0
Maneuver 6G (17%)                  -68      -      34   
Jump 3 (4%)                        -16      -      64
Power plant 6 (18%)                -72     24     216
Jump fuel (30%)                   -120      -       0
Power plant fuel (6%)              -24      -       0 
Bridge (min. 20)                   -20      -       2
Computer 6fib                      -14     -5      83
4 turrets                           -4      -       -
  1 3*beam laser                     -     -3       3
  3 3*missile                        -      -       6.75
Fuel scoops                          -      -       0.40
Fuel purifier plant                -10      -       0.01
10 staterooms                      -40      -       5
12 T of cargo space                -12      -       0 
- --------------------------------------------------------
Total:                               0     16     438.16
                                                 [350.53]

The main weakness of the design is the lack of armor. While this is not too
much of a problem when faced with armed merchantmen with low-factor computers,
it becomes a serious handicap against proper warships. I've given all ranks
single staterooms because the ship may have to be stationed away from a base
for months at a time; if you change that to double occupancy you get 20 T
more space which, combined with the cargo space, will allow 3 points of armor.

Here is another design that trades off acceleration and agility and cargo
space for armor:

GENERIC TL12 PATROL SHIP, variant B

                                 Volume   Power  Cost
Hull 400 T Close structure [4]     400      -      24
Armor 7 (16%)                      -64      -      64
Maneuver 4G (11%)                  -44      -      22   
Jump 3 (4%)                        -16      -      64
Power plant 4 (12%)                -48     16     144
Jump fuel (30%)                   -120      -       0
Power plant fuel (4%)              -16      -       0 
Bridge (min. 20)                   -20      -       2
Computer 6fib                      -14     -5      83
4 turrets                           -4      -       -
  1 3*beam laser                     -     -3       3
  3 3*missile                        -      -       6.75
Fuel scoops                          -      -       0.40
Fuel purifier plant                -10      -       0.01
10 staterooms                      -40      -       5
4 T of cargo space                  -4      -       0 
- --------------------------------------------------------
Total:                               0      8     418.16
                                                 [334.53]

Digression: A var. A with exactly the same characteristics, but built at TL
15, will be about 33% cheaper and have 53 T more of cargo space. A var. B
will be about 30% cheaper and have 69 T more cargo space. The difference
comes from the more efficient armor, power plants, and fuel purifiers at TL
15. Of course, no one would design warships with that amount of unused space,
but it's interesting nonetheless, don't you think? It would be cheaper for a
TL 12 world to buy their ships from a nearby TL 15 world than to build them
themselves, even accounting for the different strength of their currencies...

However, here is a TL 15 patrol cruiser that utilizes the extra space:

GENERIC TL15 PATROL SHIP
                                 Volume   Power  Cost
Hull 400 T Close structure [4]     400      -      24
Armor 10 (11%)                     -44      -      57.20
Maneuver 6G (17%)                  -68      -      34   
Jump 3 (4%)                        -16      -      64
Power plant 6.25                   -25     25      75
Jump fuel (30%)                   -120      -       0
Power plant fuel (6%)              -31      -       0 
Bridge (min. 20)                   -20      -       2
Computer 9fib                      -26    -12     200
4 turrets                           -4      -       -
  1 3*beam laser                     -     -3       3
  3 3*missile                        -      -       6.75
Fuel scoops                          -      -       0.40
Fuel purifier plant                 -5      -       0.01
10 staterooms                      -40      -       5
7 T of cargo space                  -1      -       0 
- --------------------------------------------------------
Total:                               0      8     471.36
                                                 [377.09]

Note that the power plant size isn't strictly according to the rules. I see no
reason why you shouldn't be able to build power plants wich produce fractions
of a power plant number. 


Here is a SDB design for when you only need to patrol your own system. The
variant with armor factor 17 will cream an awful lot of standard corsairs...

400 T SDB, TL 12, various versions

                                 Volume   Power  Cost
Hull 400 T Close structure [4]     400      -      24
Armor 0 (0%)                         0      -       0
Maneuver 6G (17%)                  -68      -      34   
Jump 0 (0%)                          0      -       0
Power plant 6 (18%)                -72     24     216
Jump fuel (0%)                       0      -       0
Power plant fuel (6%)              -24      -       0 
Bridge (min. 20)                   -20      -       2
Computer 6fib                      -14     -5      83
4 turrets                           -4      -       -
  1 3*beam laser                     -     -3       3
  3 3*missile                        -      -       6.75
Fuel scoops                          -      -       0.40
Fuel purifier plant                -10      -       0.01
6 staterooms*                      -24      -       3
164 T of cargo space              -164      -       0 
- --------------------------------------------------------
Total:                               0     16     372.16
                                                 [297.73]
*2 single, 4 double occupancy.

The main difference in price will lie in the armor. The per-T cost of armor
goes up as the armor factor goes up. Here are four variants:

                                 Cargo             Cost
Armor 2:                           140            307.32
Armor 7:                           100            348.93
Armor 12:                           60            422.53
Armor 17:                           20            528.13




      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:34:39 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: Leroy and Doug

MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Now I'm not some ignorant troglodyte. I have degrees in Engineering and
>Teaching. I have written a serious academic work on the latter subject. I
>like to think that I'm not an idiot.
>
>But Leroy... sometimes I have no idea what you're talking about. You're
>never going to convince me of anything if reading your posts has the same
>effect as staring into Jumpspace for a few hours. Could you please write in
>plain English about somethign useful or else take it off the list?

Be careful, MJ. Leroy's standard response to any indication that his
convoluted posts are somehow indecipherable is to inform you that you *are*
indeed a troglodyte. ;-)

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 12:55:38 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Metalaw

In a message dated 97-11-17 04:21:02 EST, you write:

<< >>>Metalaw started as an attempt to devise a code of behavior or ethics
 >>>that would be equally applicable to humans and to any concievable
 >>>aliens we might encounter.

The basic problem with MetaLaw is that it is trying to be a system of ethics
and proper behavior. As such it doesn't reflect the unfair or difficult to
comply with laws which favor special interests. ie. Casino Gambling. State
Lottery monopolies. Fixed prices for gold. The labyrinthine IRS tax code.
Funding for sports complexes. Speed traps. Apartheid. Slavery. The draft.
Laws against assisted suicide. The state monopoly on bad education.


Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:28:03 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re: MST3K and Leroy...

In a message dated 97-11-17 01:49:07 EST, yikes@evansville.net writes:

<< 6500 feet. Let's see, that's about, what, 1,981 meters? In a forest.
 
 ObTrav:
 
 First question: Are there TL 7 (marginal TL 8) rifles that have that kind
 of accuracy at range, in the hands of a skilled sniper?  >>

One of my best friends from my service days, George Thompson (MSgt, US Army,
ret) served as an instructor for the Sniper program for 4 years.  He assures
me that this claim, while not impossible physically (i.e. a rifle bullet can
travel that far), it is beyond the limit of human control...no one currently
in the US military is capable of such a shot in his opinion. 

He did however, postulate a possible way this could be done...someone could
drop a rifle bullet from a aircraft at 6500ft and MAYBE hit a man sized
target!!!  :-)

He also asked what kind of forest had such long visibility lines...a
dandelion forest perhaps??

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:27:43 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Can we stop talking about 'stopping talking'?

I know some folks get annoyed with long discussions (i.e., Starship
Troopers, Pirates, etc.), but you're wasting your breath when you try to
ask people to stop discussing a topic. Especially when it is at least
marginally related to Traveller and science fiction.

This is a message list. It's used for discussions about Traveller. So, if
you don't like a topic, just ignore it and let it die its natural death. I
get more annoyed when I see people trying to curb others' discussions than
I do when I see the long ad nauseum discussions themselves.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:21:28 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Traveller: The Restaurant Era - Part 1.

Traveller: The Restaurant Era - session 1

Characters:
Virgo Epstein (Owner of Empress Nicholle) - Jac Wardle
James Hunter (Ex-Marine, ships' security and gunner) - Rob
Kira (Ex-merchant, some scout service time) Unemployed -Steve
Art Tetley  (Ex-navy) Unemployed, married to Kira  - Greg
Tlankhu (Aslan ships' engineer) - Allison

Summary

<The players have just completed a survey mission for the scout service
which has lead them to travel half way across the subsector and back again.
The journey was not uneventful, the group having run across the New Order
pirate group, thwarting one of their operations.They had also acquired a
prototype military spec point defense laser system from the pirates, which
was installed on their ship, the type S Scout Aurora. The only other major
problem encountered was an atempted hijacking, which appeared to be linked
back to the Pirates.The group returned to Regina, and decided to break up.
Hunter and Virgo to move on to a business operation on an old far trader
that Virgo had an option on, Colt went his own way, and Blueberry took the
Aurora to carry on travelling and surveying. >

Virgo concluded her negotiations, and arranged a loan to cover the payment
of the 250,000 Cr fines owed on the Empress Nicholle. She decided that the
other crew didn't need to know about this, and that the 15kCr/month could
be easily lost in the operating expenses. This done, she arranged for the
package from the Aurora to be installed in the starboard turret, and took
possession of the Empress. The ship proved to be in reasonable condition,
albeit in need of some work on the decor and the drive systems. The jump
governer was damaged, and the Jump2 level system was complete shot. This
resulted in the ship being unable to achieve anything better than a one
parsec jump.

Fortunately, the present location of the ship at Luck Gibson Down in the
Regina system on the Spinward Main meant that this was not really a
problem. The fee (in excess of three million credits) to replace the jump
governer was another matter. The initial survey done, and their personal
effects installed aboard the ship, the crew headed out to celebrate at the
Starman's Rest. This was a predominantly scout service bar, but the crew
had fond memories of it, as they had started out from there 3 months ago.
They overheard an argument over the truth of the story of Twilight's Peak,
and Virgo followed it up the next day with some research, which resulted in
her finding a poem of dire quality, which the computer summarised with the
two words 'We died'.

- ----
End

    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:17:15 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: A Prequel to Traveller: The Restaurant Era

Some of you may have read Steve's post - this is the factual background to
the Campaign.

Traveller Campaign - the first part:

What has gone before?

Following a chance meeting between two groups (James Hunter and Virgo
Epstein, and Blueberry and Ex-Lt Colt) in a bar fight at Regina Downport, a
job offer ensued from the Scout Service Officer they rescued. This job
involved surveying systems throughout the Spinward Marches Sector using a
detached duty Scout-Courier (the Aurora), and reporting back to the nearest
Scout Base. Additionally, an extra payment was offered if a dead body was
carried to the planet Yorbund for burial.

The party set off to corewards from the sector capital Regina, and the
journey was uneventful until they reached the Forboldn system, site of the
biggest colonisation drive in the Marches. The starport facilities were
basic, so the group dived the Aurora deep into the gas giant Forboldn IV to
scoop in hydrogen gas as fuel.  On exiting the atmosphere of the gas giant,
the sensor systems detected a strange blip within the rings of the planet.

Upon investigation, this blip proved to be a class A free trader, the
Rubicon, coupled to a fast cutter, both ships locked in a tumble and
seemingly dead. Boarding the ships showed evidence of foul play, with
pirates from the New Order group having brutally murdered the crew of the
Rubicon with the aid of an insider. An argument had ensued and the pirates
appeared to have killed each other by opening the cargo bay doors and
decompressing the ship (1). The Rubicon appeared to be a covert Imperial
Courier, carrying a prototype weapon system which was missing (2).

The players fought off a pirate follow up attack using the ship's laser and
close in combat on the Aurora. Colt was badly wounded. They then flew and
landed at Forboldn Down, and reported the incident to the local Imperial
Navy Liason Officer, a Commodore John Snape. During the conversation, Virgo
managed to offend the officer, and the whole crew (bar Colt who was in the
hospital) managed to spend the week in prison while their report was
investigated.

Fortunately for the crew, their story was (substantially) true, and they
were released with a warning about their attitude. On returning to the
ship, the group found a message from two gentlemen. Following discussions,
it was agreed to provide passage to the nearest X-boat link waystation
(Feri) for 15KCr. Cargo from the passengers was limited to hand baggage,
and they had to share a single stateroom. Everything went well, the
passengers keeping to themselves until the Aurora completed frontier
refueling in the Whanga system, when an unidentified gig ordered them to
heave to and prepare to be boarded. Simultaneously, the two passengers were
revealed to be pirates, and seized control of the engineering section,
knocking Blueberry out.

The Aurora ran for jump, being rapidly overhauled by the gig. A vicious
gunfight ensued in the accomodation section of the ship, leaving two dead
pirates and a badly injured Hunter. Virgo and Colt took the ship into jump
just as the pirate gig came into firing range.

The group reached the Feri system, and handed over the bodies at the Scout
base. The Aurora was impounded while the records on ship were reviewed.
Meanwhile, Hunter developed a meaningful relationship with the local scout
liason officer, Angela Cartwright. Virgo received an xmail messae from her
father's attorney, requesting a meeting at Regina Downport at her earliest
convenience.

Records cleared, the ship took off and headed to Yorbund, encountering a
Imperial Naval Cru-Ron conducting live fire exercises at Beck's World.

Yorbund reached, the body was handed over to the relatives, and the crew
decided to leave, having taken one look at the dismal, cavebound lifestyle
of the planet. More drama ensued at take off from Marion Starport's
Caverns. As the ship lifted, the port suffered from an earth tremor, which
triggered warning lights on the ships' systems. On achieving orbit, no
damage was evident to the ship. There was, however, an interesting sensor
image showing a strange complex revealed through a rare break in the
clouds. As the only settlement on Yorbund was at the starport, this was a
new discovery!

So the group decided to ignore this and back to Regina, swayed by the
strong arguments of Virgo that she had to be back there as soon as
possible. The route back was fairly uneventful (they encountered the Naval
CruRon at Feri, where there were reports of extensive civil disturbances).
Finally, the group reached Regina Down on 158-1105, one hundred and fifteen
days after they originally left.

On arrival, Virgo had a discussion with her father's attorney, and
announced that she was leaving the Aurora to start a merchant business (3).
Hunter agreed to leave with her. Colt, increasingly paranoid went his own
way, and Blueberry set off with his flobee to continue surveying the
Marches.

End of the first part
(1) Virgo is in possession of the datapad of the lead Imperial Agent.
Unfortunately, this is encrypted and has yet to be broken.
(2) Actually, the players installed this on the Aurora in place of the beam
laser system in the turret.
(3) Taking the highly illegal weapon system with her!

    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:32:09 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Families in Traveller

In a message dated 97-11-17 04:22:37 EST, you write:

<< One of the reasons I came up with the "Life Events" generation system
 (posted to the list back in the summer)  >>

Could I trouble you to re-post this again?  Or perhaps email me a copy?  I
would really be interested in seeing this...

Thanks!
Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com) 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:39:23 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Apology

Apologies for the repost to the list of Steve's work - it should have been
to Andy Lilly. Fingers slipped! :-(

Thanks for everyones comments and compliments - I'm forwarding them to
Steve (NB if you like CoC he has a website at http://www.flar.demon.co.uk
with some good plot ideas, AKA Tales of Terror).

Dom

    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 10:54:48 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2106

>I played around with that for bit, and I didn't see where the gain in
>resolution offset the increased demand for resources on what is basically a
>merchant.

>If I do an IISS variant, then I'll stick great mucking sensors all over it.

I suppose it depends on what the ship's main mission in life is. Science sensors
are better for detecting planets around nearby stars, determining if there
is life on those planets (again from several parsecs range). In-system
they're better for determining the properties of planets from some distance
away (like figuring out which planet is the habitable one...); close up they're
better for doing minerology and biological studies from orbit. So, if the
ship is likely to often be dealing with uncharted systems a science sensor is
probably worth the investment. If it is mostly going into potentially-hostile-
but-charted systems it's probably not worth it (although adding the science
upgrade to the existing sensor isn't *that* expensive...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:43:57 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Crimes

> 3) Ecological destruction

Oh come on now!

The Imperium is not a liberal democracy. And I just cannot see them as being
politically correct on the environment. Any type of non-democracy  (and a
lot of democracies) does not give two shakes of a rat's ass about the
environment. Increasing industrial production is all that matters (see late
20th C Terran history, USSR) Why else are ALL industrial worlds tainted.
They might have laws on the books to "get" worlds that step out of line, but
they would certainly not give damn about a world being polluted unless it
was the hunting preserve of some high noble.

Imperial laws should cover member world interactions, interstellar trade and
imperial precedence and privilege. A murder on a world is that world's
problem. If a person flees then it is the Imperium that acts as a go-between
for the two worlds involved. 

As far as crimes like heresy, non-definite assault and such, the Imperium
would let individual worlds deal with it. And as afr as overall religious
crimes, the Imperium strikes me as a very secular state. This is not because
they would not want a single religion, it is because with 11000 worlds with
trillions of citizens you will have...well....one hell of a lot of different
religions. Look here on Earth, and we are opn the same bloody planet!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:46:07 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Space Habitats

On another list the following reference came up:

http://science.nas.nasa.gov/Services/Education/SpaceSettlement/75SummerStudy/Tab
le_of_Contents1.html

Space Settlements: A Design Study

Space Settlements: A Design Study, provides information on space settlement
development and education and assists teachers and students in the NASA
Ames Space Settlement Design Contest (see the Space Settlement Web Site).
The design study was the result of a 10 week program in engineering systems
design held at Stanford University and Ames Research Center in the summer
of 1975. Participants included professors, technical directors and students
in a variety of disciplines from physical science and architecture to
engineering and social science. The goal (see preface) was to construct a
vision of how people might sustain life in space in a large colony.

The study was copied and placed on the WWW by Bryan Yager with assistance
from Hendrick Lee and Gail Felchle. The project was mentored by Al Globus
and sponsored by NAS (Numerical Aerodynamic
Simulation).

The document (hard copy) is available through NASA/Ames Research Center
Library. For further information contact the reference staff at (415)
604-6325.

R.D. Johnson, C Holbrow, editors, Space Settlements: A Design Study, NASA,
SP-413, Scientific and
Technical.

The whole text is on the site - may be of interest to you all.

Dom

    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:41:48 +0000
From: John Wood <John@elvw.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Pocket Empires Feedback

Andy Lilly <a.s.lilly@nortel.co.uk> stated,
> I'm interested in hearing any feedback from anyone who's used Pocket
> Empires in anger, whether for combat, empire building or single world
> development.

I haven't done so yet myself, but I know a man who has...  He and his
friends played pocket empires near to each other and tried to develop
them (often at each other's expense).  They had no GM.  I passed on your
feedback request since he doesn't have internet access - what follows is
my interpretation of what he said.  Many of his comments were
observations on how it worked - he wasn't sure if they were intentional
or not.

* First of all, they had fun, which IMO the most important thing.  He
  thought it would have been better with a GM.

* The experience destroyed any tolerance he had for generating starports
  first in UWPs, since the results were so hard to justify.  OTOH, PE
  provided some better justification for many of the T-prime worlds with
  few inhabitants.

* Building up the population base is a tediously long, slow process.  In
  contrast, if you manage to take over another empire yours can grow
  suddenly.  He compared this to the results of the Interstellar Wars,
  and speculated that Terran expansion without the conflict with the
  First Imperium would have been very gradual.

* The rules for Popularity were unclear on whether the changes should be
  cumulative or reset each turn.  They played it cumulatively, and found
  that they tended to get more and more unpopular as time went on
  because of the bias that way in the table.

* The rules for Diplomacy were inadequate for unrefereed play.

* It was not clear how to set up Stakes fairly.  Also, the idea of
  stakes that could be freely transported at the start of the game
  seemed at odds with how resource allocation worked during play.

* Low-population worlds were pretty useless.  They provided little and
  could be taken over by an opposing empire without difficulty because
  of the enormous influence numbers of people has.

* Combat seemed to be exclusively attrition-based.

He was interested to see what other feedback there was, as indeed am
I...
 
John G. Wood  |  john@elvw.demon.co.uk  |  Oxford, United Kingdom

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 11:56:48 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: RE: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re: MST3K and Leroy and Douglas)

At 11:02 AM 11/17/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Marine Corps lore speaks to a sniper taking out an enemy sitting at his
>campfire with a round from the .50 cal sniper rifle from the distance of
>just over a mile....  about 6000 feet....

Gunnery sergeant Carlos Hathcock made that shot with a tripod mounted M2
BMG equipped with a surveyor's telescopic sight in Vietnam.  He was also
fifing off a mountaintop, and had the advantage of plunging fire.

Note that the shot is a legend among snipers, as is the time he and his
spotter destroyed a NVA company by themselves.

  

- --
+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
|    "But think of Korea, of Guadalcanal, of  |
| Belleau Wood, of Viet Nam.  The H-bomb did  |
| not abolish the infantryman; it made him    |
| essential... and he has the toughest job of |
| all and should be honored."                 |
|                       - Robert Heinlein     |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:17:22 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Looking for.

>Anyway I am looking for challenge 54,60 or the article "Wet Navy2",
>"Maritime
>environment and navel combat".

Ah yes, the ancient art of Guongdo, or "way of the bellybutton".

It is said to have been favored among the Chinese elite who drank much beer :)

Pete, who's let too many spelling errors pass uncommented lately.




Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:13:23 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Life Events - PC Background Generator (LONG)

The J-Man <j-man@iname.com> said,

>Would you please re-post this Life Events generator?  I wasn't part of this
>list back in the summer.
>Thanks.

- --------------------

Life Events = Character Background Generation System

by Glenn Grant <neo@total.net>

I'm one of those players who likes to know as much as possible about their
character before the game starts. I want to know everything about their
homeworld, the culture they were born into, what happened to them when they
were young, what kind of family they had... anything that will help make
the character live and breath as a unique and interesting individual.

Like most players, I like to let my creativity fly, sparking ideas from my
UPP stats, homeworld skills and UWP, background skills, career history, and
so on. A detailed homeworld write-up can be a source of lots of character
development ideas, and if it isn't a world drawn from the game setting,
I'll work with the referee to quickly sketch out the world's physical
environment and cultural profile. Culture determines many aspects of the
character's family - is it a small nuclear family, or a huge extended clan?
It is dominated by one or the other sex? Healthy or dysfunctional?
Eventually a general character history suggests itself.

Still, there's a lot about the character I don't know. For more
information, I'll need a detailed history of virtually everything they've
ever experienced. Well, why not? Why not invent a system for sparking ideas
for detailing major formative experiences and turning points in the PC's
life?

The Life Events generation system is designed to serve this need. Don't
expect it to do all the work for you: it's only intended to give your
imagination a jolt in the right direction. It provides vague general
suggestions which you're expected to flesh out in detail.


The System

The Life Events system consists of twelve short tables: six "Personal
Development" tables and six "Transformative Events" tables. These labels
are highly arbitrary: they could just as easily be called Group One and
Group Two. Similarly, the tables themselves have vague names, some of them
redundant or meaninglessly broad: Single Life, Love Life, Relationships,
Career, Finances, Health, Change, Discover, Law & Crime, Turning Points,
Social Conflict, and Major Event. Below the twelve events tables, there are
few extra tables - I'll describe them in a moment.

Depending on how much detail you're looking for, or how much time you want
to spend on the process, you can roll up a separate event for each year of
the character's life, or for each two year period, or for each five year
period. It's up to you. But one event per year is usually more than enough
for an eventful life history.

You can skip the PC's first twelve years and roll from that age onward (the
system isn't specifically designed to generate childhood life events). Or
you can start with the PC's year of birth, but in this case you should
assume that most of the results apply not to the character but to their
parents or guardians: changes in the parents' lives can have major
influences on their kid's development. Thus, the character's parents might
divorce, or the family might move to a new home (or planet, for that
matter), or their financial fortunes might change radically.

When the character is over the age of twelve, continue to use this rule of
thumb: if the result of a roll doesn't make sense for the character,
interpret it as the experience of someone close to the character, such as a
parent, sibling, lover, friend, whatever. For instance, if a roll
determines that your PC "splits up or gets a divorce," but they aren't
currently involved in a relationship, just assume that the PC's parents
have split up, or their best friend is going through a divorce.

The Events Tables refer to the character as "you". The word "You" is
assumed to proceed the Event description, as in: [You] "are involved in a
lawsuit".

The Events listed are supposed to be influential, pivotal, or in some way
character-forming. Obviously the PC will have a lot of inconsequential
experiences and relationships, but those aren't worth generating. Don't
just jot down the result as listed, such as "try a new sport"; instead,
work out the specifics of the event, and its consequences for the
character, rolling results randomly if necessary: "Age 19: Ensign Phred
takes a course in Free Fall Jujitsu, but quickly washes out, as the
instructor delights in humiliating late starters."

Similarly, if the tables say the PC falls in love, work out the
consequences. In love with whom? Roll up the lover's UPP; do the couple
have radically different Social Standings? Are they badly mismatched in
Intelligence or Education? Is the love returned, or unrequited? Again,
determine the outcomes with die rolls if you want, or make it all up. You
can assume the relationship lasts a long time, at least until another roll
determines that's it's Over. If it's just an "affair," you might give it a
randomly-determined time limit.

Remember to take into consideration the world you're on at the time of the
event - your homeworld, or a planet you're stationed on, or a ship for that
matter. Make use of the local culture, geography, Tech Level, Law Level,
whatever is appropriate. Sometimes, to determine the outcome of an event,
the UWP stats can be used as target numbers for rolls. For instance, if you
are "diagnosed with a serious disease or disorder", roll the world's Tech
Level or less on 3D to recover fully (use more dice or less, depending on
the lethality of the disease). A failure might imply that someone close to
the PC died of the disease. Similarly, use your UPP stats for target
numbers. If you are "involved in a lawsuit", you might roll your Social
Standing or less on 2D to win a favourable ruling. If you "try a new drug",
try rolling your Endurance or higher on 2D to avoid addiction. And so on.

Don't be a slave to the dice. It's your PC after all - you can make
decisions for him or her at any time. If the PC settles down with a
partner, it might make perfect sense that they have children, whether or
not this comes up as an Event roll; after all, pregnancies can be planned
or unexpected. However, since Traveller is about Travellers, it's generally
a good idea to assume that the PC will begin the game single, or at least
not living with a partner - unless you and your referee think that a
marriage can be worked into the game.

The referee should be allowed to check the final character history for
consistency with the setting (especially some of the large scale events
such as wars and disasters). But the other players don't necessarily have
to know any of it. You might have two versions - one the life story you
tell to your shipmates; the other listing experiences even your lovers
don't know about....


To Roll for Events:

For each year (or period of two years, etc):

Roll one die to select a group of tables. 
        1-3: Personal Development group
        4-6: Transformative Events group
Roll one die to select a table from that group.
Roll one die to select an event from that table.

Interpret the results very freely. Fudge as necessary.


1 - 3. Personal Development group

 1. Single Life
   1  start or end an affair
   2  start or end an affair
   3  start or end an affair
   4  start or end an affair 
   5  move in together with someone, or move out
   6  have a falling-out, or reconciliation

 2. Love Life
   1  fall in love with someone
   2  fall madly in love someone
   3  get pregnant, or get someone pregnant
   4  become celibate for a long period
   5  confront your lover regarding a serious problem
   6  question your sexual lifestyle, role, or orientation
 
 3. Relationships
   1  get engaged to be married (or get betrothed)
   2  get married (or enter a long term pact)
   3  have fights with partner
   4  go for counselling with partner
   5  separate from partner
   6  split up or get a divorce

 4. Change
   1  change your religion, sect, or philosophy
   2  change your political affiliation
   3  change your home
   4  join an important organization
   5  perform a major rite of passage
   6  become a celebrity

 5. Discovery
   1  try a new sport or recreational activity
   2  become an ardent fan of an athlete, artist, or performer
   3  become involved in visual art, or a new musical form
   4  become a volunteer for charity, development, or community
   5  become involved in media
   6  try a new drug

 6.  Turning Point
   1  reveal a secret to someone, or learn someone's secret
   2  become a colonist, pilgrim, seeker, or wanderer
   3  become a recluse, loner, or outcast (or cease to be one)
   4  encounter an important person from your past
   5  have an experience which changes your worldview
   6  a relative dies (and perhaps leaves an inheritance)


4 - 6 Transforming Events group

 1. Health
   1  are diagnosed with a serious disease or disorder
   2  are badly injured
   3  have a mental/emotional disorder or breakdown
   4  require a transplant organ, or donate one
   5  get a minor body modification (such as a tattoo, piercing, etc)
   6  decide on a major body modification (prosthetic limb, organ, etc.)

 2. Career
   1  get a new job or assigment
   2  lose your position
   3  get a new boss or partner
   4  have a major success
   5  have a major failure
   6  feel your career is stagnating

 3. Finances
   1  make a major purchase (home, vehicle, land, etc)
   2  find yourself deeply in debt
   3  get out of debt, or declare bankruptcy
   4  invest with great success
   5  invest with great losses
   6  go on the dole, or receive a grant

 4. Law & Crime
   1  become involved in crime or conspiracy
   2  become a victim of crime or conspiracy
   3  become involved in a lawsuit
   4  get into trouble with the law
   5  are publicly accused of a crime
   6  are affected by a new law or crackdown

 5.  Social Conflict
   1  are betrayed by someone you trust, or betray someone
   2  join, or oppose, a controversial social movement
   3  are caught up in a feud or other factional conflict
   4  encounter discrimination or intolerance
   5  encounter oppression or exploitation
   6  make an enemy or encounter an old one

 6. Major Event
   1  survive a major disaster, natural or otherwise
   2  are caught up in a war or armed uprising
   3  experience a famine or other severe shortage
   4  are caught up in violent civil disorder, rioting, or protests
   5  experience a kidnapping, hostage crisis, or terror attack
   6  are caught up in political upheaval or revolution


If you need to determine the identity of another person related in some way
to your PC, you can roll on the 'Others' table below. For instance, if you
roll an event that isn't appropriate for your character, you might decide
that it applies to a person determined by a roll on this table. 

Others
   1  A relative, or one of your children, if any
   2  One of your siblings
   3  One of your parents/guardians
   4  Your lover, spouse, partner, or close friend
   5  A friend, mentor, or hero
   6  A rival, enemy, ex-spouse, or ex-lover

If you're a real fanatic, you might roll up some of the more important
people in your character's life, and perhaps even roll up their life
histories (though you might want to only roll fewer events). This can add
whole new dimensions to your PC, discovering how the lives of lovers,
enemies, siblings, or children intertwine with your character's life.

Bear in mind that a good referee will find a lot of inspiration in all of
this. Expect people from your past to unexpectedly pop up in the middle of
an adventure. That high school rival who ruined your first romance; that
ex-wife you thought you'd gotten away from forever; that twin brother who's
supposed to be long-lost... But of course this is one of the best reasons
for going to all the trouble. It brings the game to life and adds to the
fun.

Feel free to adapt and modify the system to your liking, or adapt it to
your game as necessary. Heretics who like icosahedrals or ten-sided dice
might want to convert it into a single D100 system (not a bad idea, really
- - even if it just ain't Traveller!)....

Comments and suggestions are most welcome.

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
"Nature abhors normality. It can't go too long without a mutant."
                        --Dr Blockhead

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2107
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 18 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2108



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re: MS
Re: Compiled Sector Data Available
Re: MST3K
Re: Crimes
[T97#2103] Imperial Marines!! Who are they and what do they do?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2103
Re: Crimes
Re: Leroy and Douglas
Diaspora blanks
High Guard
Sector data
Re: Transponders
Traveller Writer's List
Fwd: Traveller Writer's list
Re: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re:  MST3K and Leroy and Douglas)
Re: Fwd: Traveller Writer's list
Roleplaying
Re: Metalaw
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Deadman's Tumble

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:08:03 +0000
From: "Rupert Boleyn" <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>
Subject: Re: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re: MS

Joseph R. Dietrich Wrote:

> Leroy wrote:
> > You *wish* I had been a college student all my life.  Let's see this is
> > late-1997, D.K. outta be getting out of the Federal lockup about now
> > (Federal judges don't like having a revolver put in their mouths), we
> > could put him on the job.  J.P. personally watched him bullseye a
> > deerhead in Black Forest at 6500 ft.

> 6500 feet. Let's see, that's about, what, 1,981 meters? In a forest.
> 
> ObTrav:
> 
> First question: Are there TL 7 (marginal TL 8) rifles that have that kind
> of accuracy at range, in the hands of a skilled sniper? (This all assumes
> you are allowed to use a high-powered rifle for hunting, and have a clear
> shot in a forest for almost 2 klicks). Would a 12.7mm rifle do it
> (especially since the .50 BMG is such an accurate round)? I know the Barret
> Model 82 has the oomph to do it, but I am not sure about it's accuracy. I
> would think things like turbulence would add up at such a range.
> 
> I don't have T4. In MT, this is listed as an Impossible task for a rifle
> (no matter the type of weapon -- it is in the Distant range band). In TNE,
> the 14.5 mm "crunch gun," fired from a bipod, has a range of 300 m (315 m
> with a scope), so that's extreme range there too, which is also an
> Impossible task.
> 
> So according to the rules, the chances of doing this are slim and none.
> Second question (to the millitary wonks with experience in such matters):
> Are the rules accurate on this? My feeling is that they are, but I have
> never done such long-range shooting (alas, the gun range I have shot at is
> limited to a piddly 100 m or so).
> 
> Joseph R. Dietrich
> yikes@evansville.net

IIRC there was an article in a Guns & Ammo years ago about a buffalo 
hunter last century who was reputed to have shot a buffalo a about 
1500 yards with a Sharps rifle. The author's conclusion, after 
playing around with some old rifles, was that over a known range (or 
by using a rangefinder) firing from a mount or rest it could be done 
if you knew you rifle's tracjectory well enough.

However even with modern rifles and sights I would say it would need 
a good deal of luck, no matter how skilled you are. For starters even 
a good hunting rifle in still air would be grouping at about 2 feet, 
and even with a .50 BMG round at that range the shot placement would 
need to be perfect. To further complicate matters at 6500 feet (who 
measures a shot's range in feet?) the tracjectory would be quite 
steep, so unless the range was known to within a few feet (how 
accurate are even laser range finders at the moment?) you would miss 
either over or under the target.

My personal opinion is that because you couldn't guarantee a clean 
kill that a shot shouldn't be taken at that range, as you'd probably 
never find the wounded animal unless you're on a flat, featureless 
plain. I'd be a lot more impressed if this person had stalked the 
deer from 6500 ft, and then shot it from about 20 yards - that shows 
serious skill and patience.

R. Boleyn <rboleyn@clear.net.nz>

TNE to the Core

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 13:06:32 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

Marc Miller writes:

>We need to check it.The file I have is incomplete... missing a couple dozen
>worlds (locations are there but no UWPs). That can become another project to
>fill in.

   I'm a little late to this dance, but with all the sector data being
complied, has there been given any thought to the next step, which is to
make sure that the data is revised to fit whatever new star system
generation sequence will be developed (or already developed but not
published) for "T4"?  IMHO, now would be a perfect time to step back and do
such an edit.  I would be more than happy to humbly volunteer my services
for that project, as I'm sure many other people would as well.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:45:59 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: MST3K

Leroy William Lu Guatney writes: 

>>Corporal Douglas E. Berry, USA.  MOS: 11B1V  Qualified Sniper, Small Arms
>>Armorer, and Pathfinder.  Where did you serve?  Or have you been a college
>>student your entire life?
>
>That was a joke Corporal, or didn't you learn how to address a superior
>properly (or maybe you didn't like that rather excellent movie)?

   Even if you were a 4-star general (and I know you aren't in the
military), you may out rank Doug, but you would never be his *superior*.

>You *wish* I had been a college student all my life.  Let's see this is
>late-1997, D.K. outta be getting out of the Federal lockup about now
>(Federal judges don't like having a revolver put in their mouths), we
>could put him on the job.  J.P. personally watched him bullseye a
>deerhead in Black Forest at 6500 ft.

   So what you are saying Leroy is that you are threating to have Doug
killed, correct?  Last time I heard, that is a crime in the state of
Colorado.  The fact that you did it over the Internet also makes it a
Federal crime.

>I love how you can't figure me out.  You've tried on several occassions
>to hit a nerve, but you don't know a thing about me, which just makes me
>more impervious (as if I needed to be).

   Some of us know you well enough to know that your act got *very* old and
*very* tired many, many months ago.

>If you *really* are taking this to private mail, I'll be there.  We can
>talk about anything you want to.  Just don't chicken out.

   You mean like you did when I suggested that we take the Final War on HIWG
to private mail?  Go for it Doug, this guy is so chicken he was once
accidentally served as a family bucket at a Kentucky Fried Chicken.

- --Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:19:32 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Crimes

Glenn Crawford wrote:
> 
> > 3) Ecological destruction
> 
> Oh come on now!

OH oh

> The Imperium is not a liberal democracy. And I just cannot see them as being
> politically correct on the environment. Any type of non-democracy  (and a
> lot of democracies) does not give two shakes of a rat's ass about the
> environment. Increasing industrial production is all that matters (see late
> 20th C Terran history, USSR) Why else are ALL industrial worlds tainted.
> They might have laws on the books to "get" worlds that step out of line, but
> they would certainly not give damn about a world being polluted unless it
> was the hunting preserve of some high noble.

WHoaH! Stop! Wait! <rant ON>

You are making *seriously* flawed assumptions. You are assuming the
reason why nation-states of the present day don't care about
environmental degredation is because they are "non-democracies", you are
assuming that "increasing" industrial production *will always be* all
that matters. Flawed flawed flawed.

Environmentalism is not a political ideology, imho. It is a reasonable
outgrowth of technological and social development. Once science has
advanced enough to be used on a global scale to realize the cumulative
effects of local environmental degredation -- the effects of human
habitation on global ecosystems and climate -- then Environmentalism
will become an imperative of any society which wants to make a planet a
home.

Once we here on Terra "grow up" and the awareness of the tight bond
between human activity and the biosphere has entered the public
consciousness; then historians will look back on reckless industrial
pollution in the same way we look at the use of leeches in health care
during the middle ages. In the same way that the microscope and
micro-organisms revolutionized health care, global data acquisition
through satellites, scientific investigation and data networks will
revolutionize planetary care.

I don't think you can take industry in 19-20 C. Earth and generalize
that across all high-tech TL 9+ planets throughout the Imperium. Surely
the majority will have learned from the mistakes of 20th Century Terra
and other less wise species... surely deliberate wide scale
environmental destruction will be seen in a similar light to other
crimes against society... surely future society will realize that there
is *no such thing* as _limitless_ industrial growth -- there *is* a
point of diminishing returns, after which further industrial development
will diminish sustainability of the biosphere and limit future growth.

<rant OFF>

> Imperial laws should cover member world interactions, interstellar trade and
> imperial precedence and privilege. A murder on a world is that world's
> problem. If a person flees then it is the Imperium that acts as a go-between
> for the two worlds involved.
> 
> As far as crimes like heresy, non-definite assault and such, the Imperium
> would let individual worlds deal with it. And as afr as overall religious
> crimes, the Imperium strikes me as a very secular state. This is not because
> they would not want a single religion, it is because with 11000 worlds with
> trillions of citizens you will have...well....one hell of a lot of different
> religions. Look here on Earth, and we are opn the same bloody planet!

Marc's post was not intended to delinate Imperial laws for everyone, I
believe. It was intended as a general framework to classify *all* laws
that any world government may invoke. Therefore it covers all areas of
litigation, even those the Imperium may not concern itself with, such as
religion.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:47:51 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2103] Imperial Marines!! Who are they and what do they do?

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:43:07 -0500, Brody Dunn <bdunn@ihug.co.nz>
wrote:

>Imperial Marines.  Ahh - that name just says it all.  Imperial Marines =
are=20
>the sharp pointy bit that the Imperial Navy uses to make a point to =
those=20
>that they need to make a point to.

>The Imperial Marines job is to hit fast and to hit hard and then =
generally=20
>zip off.  They are also used to make a LZ used to land more supported=20
>troops (Imperial Army - just a bunch of planetary army units transported=
 by=20
>the IN as required).

Apologies to all in advance - I just can't resist...

With _deep_ apologies to Tom Lehrer...

   When someone makes a move
   of which we don't approve
   who is it that always intervenes?
   IN and ISS - they have their place, I guess -=20
   but first, SEND THE MARINES!

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:48:01 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2103

On Sun, 16 Nov 1997 08:43:07 -0500, "Michael D. Peters"
<Letterworks@Comten.com> wrote:

>City of Philadelpia, City class Clan Free Trade Ship (FF&S v2, FF&S =
ranges)
>Designed by Trimerc Enterprises, New Mars Yards Division

Somehow, "City class" doesn't seem to sit quite right.  How about
calling it "Metropolis" class, or using the name of the first
ship of the class to be commissioned ("New York" class, for
example)
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:16:14 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Crimes

>The Imperium is not a liberal democracy. And I just cannot see them as being
>politically correct on the environment. Any type of non-democracy  (and a
>lot of democracies) does not give two shakes of a rat's ass about the
>environment. Increasing industrial production is all that matters (see late
>20th C Terran history, USSR) Why else are ALL industrial worlds tainted.
>They might have laws on the books to "get" worlds that step out of line, but
>they would certainly not give damn about a world being polluted unless it
>was the hunting preserve of some high noble.

I do agree with you that as all Industrial worlds HAS to have tainted or
worse atmospheres in order to be so rated indicate that the Imperium
doesn't really care much about the environment. I also think that when you
have several thousand starsystems to choose from one perhaps tend to
neglect the environment on occasion. On the other hand, the Vilani might be
true environmentalists as they lived in a fragile terran ecosystem
surrounded by alien plantlife (I once argued the opposite point but someone
on the list convinced me otherwise). There is also canon references that
the Imperium actually cares about the environment: The hunting to near
extinction of the Dagadashi on Bellerophon was considered a big crime and
the players where there to investigate.

BTW I do NOT think environmental protection is just politically
correctness. As we (so far) only have one planet we should perhaps try to
avoid making a mess in our own (and only) nest.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 15:00:26 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Leroy and Douglas

At 03:24 AM 11/17/97 +0800, Colin wrote:
>snip
>>Leroy, are you Illuminated? but I failed to understand several things Leroy
>>has said.
>>
>>(The above sentence is grammatically correct, by the way.)
>snip
>By the light of natural reason?  Or is this a metaphorical contribution to
>understanding?

Illumination, at least in the Gloranthan sense, makes you a madman by most
people's standards, the enemy of both Law and Chaos, and truly the enemy of
rational thought on the side of either good or evil.

(Law and Chaos being well defined terms, and good and evil being as
relative as they usually are.)

Occasionally, I have Illuminants wander through my Traveller games, but
usually they are locked up quickly.  Riddlers, though, are popular on
Sylean children's programming...

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 23:29:20 -0000
From: "Nicholas Wright" <xgr52@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Diaspora blanks

Mark,

You wanted to know what the gaps in the DGP Diaspora Sector were
I have searched the DGP data and the Astrogator's Guide to Diaspora
published by GDW during the Rebellion era.

Although the data is for the year 1124 it is the best I could do.

The data is in CSV format which takes up far less space than speadsheet
formats:

Kiev,0139,A533132-9,,Lo,Ni,,1,0,2,M8,V,,
Kashi,0238,C312488-C,S,Ni,Ic,,6,0,0,F6,IV,,
Sequoia,0339,A446548-D,,Ni,Ag,,2,1,2,G2,V,,
Maasii,0440,A240330-B,,Lo,Ni,Po,7,0,3,G7,V,,
Amaani,0740,C100213-8,,Lo,Ni,Va,3,1,2,M0,V,,
Dunoon,0839,B100488-E,,Ni,Va,,8,0,4,K3,V,M7,D
Khasiigu,0840,C580331-8,S,Lo,Ni,De,4,0,3,F6,IV,,
Dilkon,0940,E529675-7,,Ni,,,9,0,0,M6,V,,
Adryanne,1139,E530554-7,,Ni,De,Po,7,1,1,F6,,,
Nape,1339,E000695-6,,Ni,Na,As,5,2,4,M2,V,M4,D
Dawns,1340,B656745-5,,Ag,,,2,0,2,F3,V,M8,D
Garaag,1438,D380686-5,,Ni,De,Ri,3,1,2,F4,V,,
Obidos,1440,C000754-A,,As,Na,,8,2,2,G9,IV,M7,V
Galuuda,1739,E79A883-5,,Wa,,,4,0,2,M4,V,M3,D
Berens,1740,A846143-A,,Lo,Ni,,9,1,1,G1,V,M3,D
Dinklewater,1838,B98A213-B,,Lo,Ni,Wa,5,1,4,F5,V,M8,D
Kinos,1840,E55887A-8,,,,,7,2,3,K5,V,,
Epic,2040,E434745-4,,,,,9,1,2,G6,V,,
Bernens,2440,E5508C8-5,,De,,,5,0,0,G2,V,M9,D
Boley,2539,C434745-4,,,,,1,1,1,F6,VI,,
Dijon,2838,A234548-A,N,Ni,,,6,3,4,M7,V,M9,D
049-949,2839,X620588-5,,Ni,De,,8,1,3,M8,V,M1,D
Suudo,2840,D778535-7,,Ni,Ag,,3,0,2,F1,V,,
Sofar,2939,A8B4575-8,N,Ni,Fl,,4,0,0,K9,V,,
Uppsala,3139,C9795BB-6,,Ni,,,5,1,2,F4,V,M8,D
Futok,3140,B594633-A,,Ni,,,9,0,1,M1,V,M8,VI


Nick Wright

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:23:11 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: High Guard

Hans,

Isn't Armour limited to something like TL+3? TCS had soemthing about it.
(Just off the top of my head looking at the TL12 Armour 17 SDB)

Dom

    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:48:30 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Sector data

I have corrected some of the format and data errors that were pointed out 
to me, as well as adding the Diaspora sector to the spreadsheet.

I added a 'Subsector' column.  Where I had names (Spinward Marches and 
Solomani Rim) I put them in, otherwise I just used the A,B,C... format 
found in many of the MT books.

I added the Diaspora sector information.  The Diaspora sector data is not 
complete, if someone has additional data, please send it to me (or correct 
the spreadsheet and send me the corrections) and I will post it.

I have also added a second spreadsheet for anyone who just wants to be able 
to look at the sector information.  Instead of being a a single sheet with 
all the data on it, I broke it up into workbook format.  Each page has only 
a single sector's data in it, with the first page being a rough sector map 
of the Imperium, hyperlinked to that sector's data sheet.

The database has been updated to reflect all of the new information.

I hope this helps!

douglas
_________________________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
Http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of 
dropping a god at 500 meters
_________________________________________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:49:40 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Transponders

>Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 08:29:39 +0100 (MET)
>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Re: Transponders
>
>On Sat, 15 Nov 1997, Steven Hudson wrote:
....
>>   Really difficult, then impossible after the Cymbeline-derived
>> chips are enslaved, urh, used. This contradicts a fair chunk of
>
>Pardon my ignorance, as I have little knowledge of transponders in
>general. Is Cymbeline chips a sentient ao semisentient being or just a
>very complex computerchip? Even if it sentient why can't someone enlist it
>into their use if the Imperium is capable of it. If the Imperial scientist
>enslaved it, I'm sure that someone with enough resource can "free" it.

  Adventure 13 (?) - only the IN really knows about them, or has access to
them outside of the transponder boxes. As to their status - either they're
intelligent and the IN is committing a criminal act, or they're not. If
you're cynical, the case becomes "it's being done, so they will not be
legally defined as independently sapient".

>What exacly is the transponder sending/recieving? Is it different every
>time? What exactly is it that makes it so difficult to tamper with?
....
>Or just taking it apart and selling them all around.

  After ~1105 (?) they're canonically tamper-proof - they slag themselves
every time. I recommend that you evade that by allowing complex forgeries
capable of fooling (at least) civilian authorities. The box won't allow
the ship to stop broadcasting its ID and (OC) location.

  If a pirates intel network were truly fantastic, they could operate
as a trapper, and not have a transponder at all. Smuggling is safer.
  
         Yours truly,
                 Steven Hudson 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:16:22 -0500 (EST)
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Traveller Writer's List

   BTW, to sub to the list you send the message to Majordomo@qrc.com

Bryan Borich

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:04:26 -0500 (EST)
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Fwd: Traveller Writer's list

- ---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Fwd: Traveller Writer's list
Date:    97-11-17 20:01:57 EST
From:    Kagekiha
To:      Kagehira


- ---------------------
Forwarded message:
Subj:    Traveller Writer's list
Date:    97-11-15 15:32:27 EST
From:    Kagekiha
To:      hiwg@fwe.com
CC:      traveller@mpgn.com

     Okay, the Traveller's Writer's List is up and apparently running.

      To subscribe send a message to:

subscribe hiwg-twg-digest <youraddress>

      for the digest version or

subscribe hiwg-twg <youraddress>


       Membership is restricted to former and would be Traveller Writer's.
The list is only for work on Traveller related projects (articles,
sourcebooks, etc....). Kibitzers can join the list on a temporary (6-month)
basis at the invititation of a writer.
        Would be Writer's need to submit an article for discussion (or an
outline of a sourcebook or adventure book they would like to work on). In
return you get a temporary membership (roughly 6 months), and useful input on
your work.
        A form of Nettiquette will be enforced on the list and discussions
should relate to useful material to Traveller (in any form) with the purpose
of getting published.
        This list is sponsored by History of the Imperium Working Group, it's
SIG, The Traveller Writer's Group and with thanks to Derek Wildstar for
providing a site.


Bryan Borich

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 16:24:04 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re:  MST3K and Leroy and Douglas)

At 03:43 am 11/17/97 -0800, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>At 11:18 PM 11/16/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>Okay, let's turn this to a Traveller post.
>>
>>6500 feet. Let's see, that's about, what, 1,981 meters? In a forest.
>
>>So according to the rules, the chances of doing this are slim and none.
>>Second question (to the millitary wonks with experience in such matters):
>>Are the rules accurate on this? My feeling is that they are, but I have
>>never done such long-range shooting (alas, the gun range I have shot at is
>>limited to a piddly 100 m or so).
>
>If the shooter took several turns to aim at a target that was not aware of
>the threat, fired from a supported position, with a weapon and ammo load he
>was familiar with..  maybe.  I'd like to know what was used to get a
>first-shot kill on a large animal at nearly 2km..  a sabot round?

	No, it was a special load designed by somebody in the daycare center at
Famille Spofulam ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 20:15:03 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fwd: Traveller Writer's list

At 08:04 PM 11/17/97 -0500, you wrote:

>     Okay, the Traveller's Writer's List is up and apparently running.

>       Membership is restricted to former and would be Traveller Writer's.
>The list is only for work on Traveller related projects (articles,
>sourcebooks, etc....). Kibitzers can join the list on a temporary (6-month)
>basis at the invititation of a writer.
>        Would be Writer's need to submit an article for discussion (or an
>outline of a sourcebook or adventure book they would like to work on). In
>return you get a temporary membership (roughly 6 months), and useful input on
>your work.

Can I join based on existing body of work?  I'm already behind on my MoS
adventure, and don't have time to rough something else out.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 19:56:31 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Roleplaying

I play 2 Traveller campaigns. One is a dead serious
politco-military/adventuring game. It's great!


And then there's Bob and Candy. Candy's a macho ex-forces shoe-shopping
thug (who was once invalided out of the Scientists!), and Bob (me) is a
psionicist, a powerful telepath with no practical skills to speak of. He's
useless!

This game is great, too. Bad stuff happens to us that the gunbunny macho
types could deal with easily. But not Bob and Candy, the two most inept
space adventurers around. No stats over 7 (precious few of those), skills
like Acting, Writing and Fast Talk - we have to deal with things very
differently to the usual adventure-movie style. 

But this is great fun too. Now we've hooked up with leonard, a noble dimwit
with a broken-down ship. We're off to rescue Bob's psionic friends from
persecution - a crusade for justice! A flurry of cheap Sushi restaurants,
starship breakdowns, vac suit accidents and weaseling our way out of
trouble. 

This it Traveller, too. We have one gun - but no bullets. We have the wrong
skills and equipment that doesn't work. There are hints that Bob may be
infatuated with Candy, but he's scared of her. EVERYONE is out to get us.
Leonard is a dangerous incompetent, but we're not skilled enough to tell
that....

And we're having a great time! The roleplaying is excellent, the plotline
is sometimes grim and sometimes hilarious.... The adventures would be good
ones with any characters.

But with Bob and Candy, they're the best!

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 21:58:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Metalaw

In mail you write:

> But IIRC, you didn't tell us *who* came up with these MetaLaws.

Some academic types. The article I got the nfo in that post from was in
the April 1977 issue of Analog. I think the article was by G.Harry
Stine.

> You mention them figuring in a science fiction novel, but you didn't
> give its author or title. Details, please?

Metalaw shows up in several of Stine's books. Heck, one is *based* on
it ("A Matter of Metalaw"?). He used to write under the name Lee
Correy, but now he writes his SF under his own name. 

The book(s) I was thinking of were the Starsea Invaders series from
ROC. "First Action", "Second Contact", "Third Encounter". 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:57:54 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Erwin Fritz wrote:

> > I gotta agree.  Great casting, too -- Alan Rickman as Dulinor is now graven
> > into my imagination.  And Jack Nicholson as Strephon, of course.
> > 
> 
> Now you've done it. I just HAVE to come up with an adventure where
> my group gets to meet Strephon. I can just see Strephon saying "You
> have to ask me nicely" to a PC request.
> 
> Alan Rickman is, arguably, the greatest villain since Vader.

I agree with that if you mean Gruber in "Die Hard".
His Sheriff of Nottingham performance was a little poor, IMHO.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:53:23 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Deadman's Tumble

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 DustyLV769@aol.com wrote:

> I'm kind of confused...isn't a "Deadmans tumble" a spin around 3 axis (ro=
ll,
> pitch, and yaw?)  I also understood that the reason it's called Deadmans
> tumble is that is was impossible for a ship to dock w/ a vessel tumbling =
in
> all 3 planes...therefore anyone trapped on a tumbling ship was "a Dead ma=
n"
>=20
> Am I missing something?
>=20
The tumbling is a rotation around _one_ axis that is _not_ the main axis.
Even if the ship rotates around its main axis, you=B4ll get a problem at=20
docking, as you will have to orbit the other ship to stay at the hatch.
Remember the lab ship, which always rotates and is shown quite in a way=20
in the motion picture "2001" and similar in Babylon 5. The landing ships=20
always go to the non-rotating axis or rotate themselves around their=20
long axis that lies identical to the rotating axis of the station.
It would be possible to dock at the ring (like on Deep Space Nine), but=20
not as easy. =20

Now a tumble lets the ship rotate in a way, that the intended point for=20
docking, the hatch rotates around it in a way that makes it not=20
reachable, perhaps because the wings or other parts of the ship get in=20
the way on reaching it and you could collide with it. Additionally, this=20
kind of rotation is not stable and will change (the slower, the bigger=20
the ship is) but you have a problem to predict this.

That=B4s the way I understand it, maybe someone can explain it better than=
=20
me. (if already hasn=B4t - my mail server crashed down the last week).

For the more mathematically involved ones: An axis in physical mention is=
=20
a vector. two or more vectors can always be added to one vector.
So you can describe the rotation of a body using the three main axes or=20
the one, it=B4s visually rotating - this is physically equivalent.

L.A.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2108
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 18 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2109



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Crimes Against the Empire (longish)
Re: Crimes
Sector Data Problem
Naval Ships and Transponders (was Piracy and fleet deployment)
Imperial Law
Environmental laws
Re: High Guard
Re: Trav Movie
Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)
environment
Re: US History (OT) was Re:Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]
Re: Crimes Against the Empire (longish)
Re:High Guard Armour
Regina Nightly News
Imperial Marines & Tom Lehrer
Re: Crimes
Messing with the UWP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1997 03:55:43 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Crimes Against the Empire (longish)

>I get some kind of Deja vu all over again. Someone wrote an article in
>Challenge about Imperial law with the same flaws (carbon copy of US law)
>and someone sent a letter with almost exactly the same criticism. Have I
>entered a timeloop here?

That was me (the letter), in Challenge #53.  Nice to know someone actually
read it :-)

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1997 04:12:52 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Crimes

>> 3) Ecological destruction
>
>Oh come on now!
>
>The Imperium is not a liberal democracy. And I just cannot see them as being
>politically correct on the environment. Any type of non-democracy  (and a
>lot of democracies) does not give two shakes of a rat's ass about the
>environment. 

Actually, that turns out not to be the case.  Spain had very strong laws to
protect trees before the Spanish Armada, for example.  In fact, when they
started cutting down more than they planted their naval power started
slipping.  And a major reason in the British colonizing North America was to
get the timber (for ships), because it allowed them to convert British
forests into farmland.


>Increasing industrial production is all that matters (see late
>20th C Terran history, USSR) 

Take the long view, like the Vilani.  If you plan on staying there, don't
pollute more than the nevironment can cope with.  Remember that the Vilani
are known for long-term planning (eg. centuries), that Marc has said that the
Third Imperium is culturally Vilani, and that (see my above examples)
rational governments should see a need to preserve the resources that
underpin their power.


>Why else are ALL industrial worlds tainted.

Um, an artifact of a trade rule, taken out of context?

Seriously, it makes as much sense to use the enlistment probabilities to
computer demographics for the Imperium.  (It's been done.)  Traveller has a
_lot_ of contradictory material in it, much of it from authors not thinking
of spill-over effects, or from authors taking something to extremes.  

(This is intended as a personal attack, by the way.  I deal with teenage
rules lawyers all day, who delight in twisting rules and regulations.  You've
hit a sore point.)

Anyway, if you want a justification, I'd say that the tainted atmosphere
count be long-term contamination or alteration of the world's natural state. 
Alternately, maybe Imperial policy prohibits industrialization of a world
with a decent atmosphere to begin with!


>They might have laws on the books to "get" worlds that step out of line, but
>they would certainly not give damn about a world being polluted unless it
>was the hunting preserve of some high noble.

I disagree, for the above reasons.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:55:24 +0200 (EET)
From: Gintas Sova <Gintas.Sova@sc.vtu.lt>
Subject: Sector Data Problem

All this talk about sector data and spreadsheets reminded me of a problem
I came across when back in the UK this summer.

One very long term project I'm working on (though not very often) is the
creation of a ship's Library program. The idea is that if one of the
players wants to look something up, they use a computer as a prop (instead
of asking the ref). The way this differs from what I've seen on the web is
that they players cannot see an index of entries. They type in a keyword
(e.g. Akerut) and either it matches or they get nothing (presumably the
ship's database would be too big for there to be an easy to use index).
Anyway, I wrote a program to convert the DGP sector data files into the
format I'm using for the Library. I eventually noticed a problem:

There are discrepancies between the DGP data and Supplement 3. I only
looked at subsectors A to F or G, but each subsector had at least a few
differences, and one had something like a dozen. Some of these differences
are in the planetary size digit - not something that can be explained by
the decade between the CT and MT settings (I seem to recall someone
"recently" mentioning a hydro digit discrepancy).

My questions are:

1. Is there a similar problem with the Solomani Rim data?
2. Does the CT data match the MT data?
3. Which data should be ragarded as "canon"?

I am currently in Lithuania and far away from my Traveller material, so I
won't be able to check the books for some time.

       v
Markus Sova

 v _                     v        v
Isrukyk man silke - sugrisiu pusryciams!
                `       `

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:55:44 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Naval Ships and Transponders (was Piracy and fleet deployment)

Just one question. Does naval ships have transponders? 
This would make a big difference in the piracy and fleet deployment
thread.

If the ships have transponders, how does then scouts undertake spy
missions into enemy territory? They can't. So if they have transponders
they need one with an on/off switch. This to means that it is
possible for the IN to make transponders that can be turned off. And if
they got it, you can be sure that someone else has it. Out with
tamperproof transponders. We don't want that. So that means that naval
ships do not have transponders and therefor propably have a code system to
identify themself. A ship travelling on a top secret mission only needs to
send the right code to the SDB for it to understand who it is. And as we
all know a codesystem is not perfect. 

Just some ranting, but this transponder issue is to me an idiotic
invetion. 


Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 12:19:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Derek Wildstar <wildstar@qrc.com>
Subject: Imperial Law

With the recent thread on Imperial law, I've been reflecting on how I've
handled it in my campaigns, and trying to come up with an overall
theory of the way Imperial justice would work in my universe (with its
"Roman" citizenship model).

Laws:

Imperial laws must be general, and concern themselves only with the
protection of the Nobility, other Imperial Citizens, and the Empire.
Two general classes of crimes against the Empire exist:

Treason - which is actions (or plans to act) that would betray the Empire;
  for example selling military secrets to the Zhodani, or plotting to
  overthrow the Emperor.  Generally these crimes are punishable by death.

Economic - any activity which causes economic damage to the Imperium as a 
  whole, or to individual member worlds.  Many activities, from piracy
  to war between member worlds falls into this category, including
  mercenary activities.  Generally these offenses are punishable by fines
  and/or imprisonment.

In addition, offenses against Citizens (such as murder, theft, and so forth)
are Imperial crimes.  This provides basic legal protection for Citizens and
their property.  Citizens can (and sometimes do) waive this protection - for
example, a mercenary who happens to be a Citizen is not immune from bullets,
and if killed in action, the Imperium generally does nothing.  These crimes
can be punsied by anything from a fine to death.

Conversely, Citizens are expected to maintain a high standard of behavior
and not abuse their priveledges as Citizens.  Abuse of these priveledges
(such as damaging Imperial relations with any world, or other conduct which
reflects poorly on the Imperium) can be punished by a fine, banishment from
a world, or removal of Imperial Citizenship.

There are several items to note about this legal structure:
+ Overall guidelines and some specific instructions come from the Emperor,
  but the details and implementation are up to the individual Nobles who
  administer Imperial policy.  Thus, what Norris does in Regina Subsector
  has very little to do with the policy on Capitol or on Terra.
+ The Imperium doesn't generally regard monopolies (even ones that span
  several sectors or more) as economically harmful.
+ Similarly, a "small" war between nations on a balkanized world or between
  corporations or member worlds isn't considered harmful unless a
  significant number of non-combatants are killed or significant economic
  damage is done to the civilian infrastructure on either side.


A word about the Imperial "Rules of War".  These AREN'T laws of the
Imperium.  The "Rules of War" are a set of guidelines for what is probably
acceptable and what is definitely not permitted (for example: nuclear,
chemical, and biological agents of mass destruction are definitely not
permitted, by the Emperor's specific order; on the other hand, how much
conventional damage constitutes "too much" is open for interpretation).
The details of the areas that are open for interpretation are up to the
local Nobility, and may vary within the Imperium.  In general, frontier
areas (like the Marches) will have a lot looser definition than the Core
will.


Those of you that have been paying attention may have noticed that (for
example) murder of a non-citizen by a Citizen isn't an Imperial crime.
Depending on the circumstances, it may or may not be punished.  This is
where the "Rules of War" and similar guidelines come into play.  For example,
if the Citizen in question is a mercenary, and killed an enemy during the
course of an act of war, there's no Imperial punishment.  If the Citizen
were simply to go berzerk and start shooting people on a streetcourner, the
Imperial courts would probably strip him of citizenship, and turn him over
to the local authorities.  In between the two circumstances are the areas
that are subject to interpretation by the Nobility.


Enforcement:

First of all (and despite the Challenge articles), I don't have an "Imperial
Ministry of Justice".  Given the fuedal nature of the Imperium, I see the
administration of the legal and justice system one of the functions of the
Nobility.  At least in theory, the Emperor is the source of all legislative,
judicial, and executive authority in the Imperium.  In practice, the Emperor
sets the broad guidelines, and delegates the details.

The non-heriditary Knights are the primary enforcement arm; these are people
who (in general) have already demonstrated a commitment to the good of the
Imperium, and knighthood is a recognition of this.  It gives them additional
rights and responsibilities, to work to uphold the Imperium wherever they
might be.

The local counsuls, Imperial representatives on (nearly) each inhabited
world with an independent government, would almost always be Knights.  Some
worlds have a large number of counsuls, and others only one.  Other Knights
act as the investigative and enforcement arm of the Nobility*.  In any case,
Knights are expected to uphold Imperial law and policies wherever they
happen to be (and "upholding" may consist of simply recording evidence and
reporting to higher authoritiy, or intervening directly).

* This job, in particular, has great adventure possibilty.  I've run a
  campaign where the PCs (all Citizens, lead by an ex-Imperial Navy officer
  who was Knighted) formed a trouble-shooting team reporting to the Duke of
  Lanth.  They were assigned a 500-ton liason ship drawn from the Imperial
  Navy Inactive Reserve ("mothball fleet"), and performed everything from 
  investigations of corrupt business practices by Al-Morai to security for
  a Imperial trade delection meeting with Zhodani representatives.

Many nobles maintain entire units of armed forces* (the Duke of Regina's
own Huscarles, for example) equipped to whatever standard they can afford. 
The "big stick" of the Imperium is weilded by the Imperial Navy; in general
local Navy commanders confer with the Nobility.  While the Navy isn't
(usually) under the direct control of the local nobles, the Navy is usually
disposed to help them out under the principle of the Emperor's Protection.
The Navy prefers to tackle "large" problems that are amenable to being
solved by suitable applications of military force (such as rogue planetary
governments, wars which must be stopped, piracy, and invasions), while the
nobility's private forces and the Knights handle the smaller troubles and
those that can't be settled militarily (such as single fugitives, or corrupt
business practices).

* It's fairly well-known that the amount of influence traditionally weilded
  by the Duke of Regina in the affairs of the Spinward Marches is due in
  part to the actions of the Duke and his household forces in quashing any
  opposition to Regina's policies during the Civil War.

Holders of Imperial Warrants (regardless of rank, although Warrants are
rarely, if ever, issued to anyone other than Knights or Nobility) override
the precedence of the Nobility, at least in the area of authority of the
Warrant.


Trials:

Imperial trials are usually conducted by one or more Nobles who outrank the
accused.  Most crimes are tried by a single judge who hears testimony, makes
a determination of guilt, and (if guilty) sets punishment.  More serious
cases are heard by a panel of nobles (usually three or five).  Appeals can
be made to the higher ranks of nobility, but are usually not successful.


wildstar@qrc.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  Prepare the Wave Motion Gun!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:20:41 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Environmental laws

>BTW I do NOT think environmental protection is just politically
>correctness. As we (so far) only have one planet we should perhaps try to
>avoid making a mess in our own (and only) nest.

Let me say, I do distinguish between word and deed. There is a politically
correct environmentalism and practical. I hope we follow the latter. And as
to your last statement,TOO LATE!

As far as humanity naturally developing a "social" environmentalism, I say:

HA HA HA HA HA HA..ha ha, ernf (sniff)..excuse me...

Have you ever seen what was left of Eastern Europe after communism?
Third World dictators want the economy to give them First World luxuries
(read: weapons), and the environment is distant concern , at best. They
would then complain, if we (the West) tried to get them to clean up before
it is too late, that we were interfering in their culture. 

I picture TL 10-11 worlds complaining loudly everytime the TL 12 worlds try
to keep a world pristine or that the TL 12 world is unfairly denying them
access to a better life. 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 10:45:29 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: High Guard

>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:23:11 +0000
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: High Guard
>Isn't Armour limited to something like TL+3? TCS had soemthing about it.
>(Just off the top of my head looking at the TL12 Armour 17 SDB)

Hello,
  It's TL, +3 or 6 for asteroid hulls, IIRC. OTOH, using 60 Dt as supplies
and/or support for a couple of long-endurance customs launches or a few
small (anti-piracy) fighters would make it a nice anti-piracy/customs ship.
It does
cut into the SDB function, but HG rules (PP in whole numbers, 1 Hardpoint/100
Dt, etc.) make it hard to fill SDB hulls at various techs without going to
sub-deployed elements.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 18:23 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Trav Movie

In-Reply-To: <971116120638_-524757943@mrin83.mail.aol.com>

> My personal choice would be a story based on Norris' search for the Warrant
> allowing him to take command of the Navy during the FFW...you have all the
> great elements of a good story, with plenty of space for effects also.

Might require a lot of prior knowledge or explanation - who are the Zhodani? 
what is the Imperium? who is Norris? what is an Imperial Warrant, and why 
does he want it? Might be better as the second film.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 18:23 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Cast for "Traveller - The movie" (humour)

In-Reply-To: <971113125403_-1878252773@mrin84.mail.aol.com>

> How many people are in favor of a Traveller-based film that would
> concentrate first on story, second on effects? (low-budget, possibly
> independant Film)
>  
>      How many people are in favor of a Traveller-based film that would
> concentrate first on effects and imagery first, and story second? (Prob
> Hi-budget, lavish Hollywood Film)
>  
> This is just curiosity....reply at your leisure...

It costs as much to write a bad script as a good one. There should be as 
much FX as needed.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:30:39 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: environment

>assuming that "increasing" industrial production *will always be* all
>that matters. Flawed flawed flawed.
In what way? That is all that matters at voting time, or whenever they
justify why they are oppressing people in non-democracies

>Environmentalism is not a political ideology, imho.
exactly, IYHO. Oil spills, clearcutting, relaxing of pollution laws are
happening now! People are fighting the clearcutting protesters because jobs
and family come before environment. This is not a practical long-term view,
but it is reality

>Once we here on Terra "grow up" and the awareness of the tight bond
>between human activity and the biosphere has entered the public
>consciousness; then historians will look back on reckless industrial
>pollution in the same way we look at the use of leeches in health care
>during the middle ages. In the same way that the microscope and
>micro-organisms revolutionized health care, global data acquisition
>through satellites, scientific investigation and data networks will
>revolutionize planetary care.
You, me bucko, watch too much Star Trek

>surely future society will realize that there
>is *no such thing* as _limitless_ industrial growth -- there *is* a
>point of diminishing returns, after which further industrial development
>will diminish sustainability of the biosphere and limit future growth.
Maybe. Not likely though. Again, see Eastern Europe. Just because it
endangers the entire biosphere does not mean we won't do it. There are still
lead pipes used in plumbing. And that lesson was taught over 1500 years ago

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 14:19:02 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: US History (OT) was Re:Review: Starship Troopers [SPOILERS]

>
   Hi.
   
> From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
   
>>> In case you weren't aware of it, it used to be the case that you could
>>> only vote if you owned property or had a profession.
>>> The only way the *un*enfranchised (dis-enfranchised refers to people
>>> who have had the vote *taken away*, not those who never had it) will be
>>> denied a chance to earn the right is if the enfranchised deliberately
>>> keep them from being able to earn the money to buy property, or the
>>> ability to *learn* a profession. Neither was true in the US.
   
>> Leonard what about women, or non whites ?  Law and custom both
>> deliberately "keep them from being able to earn the money to buy
>> property, or the ability to *learn* a profession."
>> Without meaning to sound harsh here I must point out that your statement
>> is _not_ correct.
   
> It was for those considered "people". Women and blacks were both
> "property", with women having limited civil rights, and blacks having
> none.
   
   Umm, not quite.  Both women and blacks were considered people (or at
   least, in the case of blacks, partly people*).  They were in fact
   represented in the government --- women 100%, and blacks 62.5% --- but
   they could not vote.
   
   The ideal of one-man one-vote is a relatively recent one in the
   history of democracy.  The earlier idea of democracy is that some
   representative sample of the people would be taken into account in the
   legislative process.  The sample would be taken from the best sort of
   individuals: the barons in the earliest days of British democracy.  
   Later, the franchise was extended to all landowners in general.
   
   In the early days of the US, the head of each household was supposed
   to best determine the interests of not only himself but his wife,
   adult dependents, children, employees, servants, and slaves.  He was
   to vote accordingly.  (In those very rare occurrences when a woman or a
   black was the head of a household, then that woman or that black could
   indeed vote.)
   
   Later, because of abuses by these landlords, the definition of
   `head-of-household' was extended to any literate married adult
   male. Still later, the franchise was extended again to any adult male.
   By this time the head-of-household idea was dying out, and the concept
   of one-man one-vote was beginning to take hold.  It was only a matter
   of time then before the franchise was extended to emancipated slaves
   and women.  Eventually, even the literacy requirement was dropped and
   the age requirement was lowered.  This is because the very /concept/
   of voting evolved from that of the civic duty of the establishment to
   uphold the interests of their `constituents' to that of a civil right
   whereby any individual could make himself heard, or at least counted,
   by an increasingly impersonal government.
   
   ObTrav: Keep in mind that Traveller government codes 2 and 4 may not
   mean in other future cultures what they mean in our own present one.
   
   -Rob
   
   * Point of clarification.  It is an abstract simplification to say
   that blacks were considered `partly' people.  The 62.5% representation
   was a compromise between those who held conflicting opinions on the
   anthropological, legal and moral status of blacks in general and
   slaves in particular.  Some did not consider them people at all,
   others thought they were fully human, and many thought that they were
   human but shouldn't have their numbers counted to the benefit of
   representatives who oppressed them.  The ruminations of Thomas
   Jefferson, both a democratic idealist and a slaveholder, give an
   interesting insight into how our ancestors dealt with this issue.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 15:21:03 +0000
From: David Asman <DASMAN@CMS.CC.Wayne.Edu>
Subject: Re: Crimes Against the Empire (longish)

I seem to remember some reference to Imperium controlling the space in
between the stars, while allowing each planet to govern itself in any
manner in which the citizens or rulers of the planet see fit.  
I'm sure the Imperium would have some general guidelines, concerning
major crimes such as genocide and nuclear war.
I look at the Imperium as having a document similar to the US
constitution (although the Imperium's codification of law would be even
less restrictive on subject planets than the US constitution is on the
rights of the states, allowing for greater independence of each planet's
government and citizenry).
The most important role the Imperial law would play in the game is the
control of space and the various regulations and laws governing travel,
safety, and transport, i.e. laws against piracy, transport of illegal
substances, steerage  . . .
paz, 
	dave

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 20:26:14 +0000
From: David Scott <Snail@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re:High Guard Armour

>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:23:11 +0000
>From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
>Subject: High Guard
>
>Hans,
>
>Isn't Armour limited to something like TL+3? TCS had soemthing about it.
>(Just off the top of my head looking at the TL12 Armour 17 SDB)
>
>Dom

High Guard (2nd Ed.) p29. The added armour on a ship may not exceed the 
ship's tech level.


David

mailto:Snail@dircon.co.uk
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~snail/

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1997 15:31 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Regina Nightly News

Welcome to the Regina Nightly News, with anchorsapients
Luck Gibson IV and Lise Hefry; Rendolf Schwarz on sports;
and Junidy Arkess with the weather.  And now, from the
heart of Regina, the nightly news!

Gibson: Good evening, I'm Luck Gibson IV.

Hefry: And I'm Lise Hefry.  The Environmental Lobby filed
an official protest with the Marquisate today, claiming
efforts to clean up the subsector's pollution problems
haven't been organized or funded well enough to be effective.
The official position of Regina has been that phase I
terraforming, also known as regional terraforming, is within
the grasp of current Imperial technology, and thus it is 
the Imperium's responsibility to provide resources for
local cleanup.  The Palace was unavailable for comment.
Most of the Spinward Marches Sector Councilmembers have
adopted similar positions.  Meanwhile, a number of  
planets in the Marches -- many of them industrial centers --  
have been tagged as dangerous to the health of sapients.
In extreme cases, the Travellers' Aid Society has distributed
filter masks to members and their guests as a precaution
against tainted atmosphere.

Gibson: The problem of industrial pollution has always been
with the human race, even before the Third Imperium.  
Surviving records of the Rule of Man shows both Solomani and
Vilani worlds with old-style fusion plants, inefficient and 
messy fission reactors, and even fossil fuel plants on the
more barbaric worlds -- all used to power their infrastructure.
Most likely, refineries, mines, and production have always
produced waste -- which is, simply, material that neither
industry nor nature can process efficiently.

Hefry:  However, all that may be changing.  Imperial 
technologists claim qualified success on certain classified
terraforming tests.  We interviewed Doctor Gene Iirla on
the subject: (solid hologram activates)

Iirla: "With careful study of old Darrian text fragments, the 
Imperium stands on the threshold of being able to create a 
planned environment on any planet... of course, we can't assure 
a planet will keep an environment -- we can't do miracles --
but give us a planet in the habitable zone with the right 
characteristics, and we can create a clean, clear atmosphere, 
bodies of water, and fertile soil.  We could cure hunger once 
and for all!  No more will people have to gasp in the thin 
air of a world tainted by industrial waste!  The future, 
indeed, looks bright, and I assure you it is just around 
the corner!"  (hologram terminates)

Gibson: The Peerage of Regina has stated that it will
co-operate in every way with the Imperium to provide this
technology free of charge to every member world in the
subsector once it is proven.

(pause; Gibson pages forward on his telecomp)

(hologram of a Regina Baron activates)

Gibson: In other news, the body of a Regina nobleman has 
been delivered to an Imperial Scout base on the fringes of
the Marches.  Baron Marcus von Hunt, late of the Margate
prefecture and patron of Shashen College at Margate, is
being shipped home from Garda-Vilis after dying during an 
alleged Vargr Corsair raid upon an Arkesh installation in 
the Vilis subsector.  

(hologram changes to show a different nobleman)

Gibson: A minor noble, a Mr. du Nobe of Lunion, who was 
accompanying the Baron, escaped with some injuries, and is 
being held for questioning.  Accusations that the minor noble 
is responsible for the Baron's murder are unsubstantiated.
Sources have recently revealed that Mr. du Nobe was an agent
working for Lunion before he was patented as a noble, and
has a criminal assault record.

(pause; page forward; Imperial patriotic music begins to fade in)

Gibson: Coming up next, strange ruins found on Dinomn.

Hefry: ...and have UFOs really landed on Fulacin?

Schwarz: ...and in sports, the Corsairs beat the Aslan in
one of the most violent hockey matches this season, while 
the Groats cleaned up in the Regina Fazoom tournament.

Arkess: ...and we'll see just how bad hurricane Dulinor is
going to be, coming up next after these messages.

(break for commercial)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:26:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Imperial Marines & Tom Lehrer

> Date: Mon, 17 Nov 1997 22:47:51 GMT
> From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
> 
> Apologies to all in advance - I just can't resist...
> 
> With _deep_ apologies to Tom Lehrer...
> 
>    When someone makes a move
>    of which we don't approve
>    who is it that always intervenes?
>    IN and ISS - they have their place, I guess -
>    but first, SEND THE MARINES!

We'll send them all we've got
(short of a near-c shot)
Fighting grunts, and deadly war machines,
To each pocket empire (but *not* to the Moot spire)
What do we do?  We send the Marines!

  For might makes right,
  Until they've seen the light,
    We've got to give them their due
    Lean on 'em a bit, too,
    'Til we make a sale for Zhunastu!

Members of the Corps
All *hate* the thought of war!
They'd rather let the Navy fight with beams
Stop calling it expansion
Hey, Cleon needs a new mansion!

  We only want sophonts to know
  The Third Imperium will grow
  It's in their interests, and so
  When in doubt, send the Marines!

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 13:37:33 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Crimes

> Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 00:16:14 +0100
> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
> 
> I do agree with you that as all Industrial worlds HAS to have tainted or
> worse atmospheres in order to be so rated indicate that the Imperium
> doesn't really care much about the environment.

Just to throw in a bit of heresy (sorry to muscle in on your turf, Eris),
have you ever considered another way of reading this correlation?  Perhaps
Imperial law or custom only allows large-scale industrial development on
worlds which have an existing taint when settled!  The T-prime worlds
(with, presumably, richer ecosystems) are purposefully limited to
(relatively) light, non-polluting industry in order to protect them.

I realize that, in reality, tainted-atmosphere worlds would often have
ecologies just as 'valuable' as those on T-prime worlds, so this idea
indicates a significant degree of T-prime-ecosystem bias in the
Imperium...or perhaps all the Industrial (in the trade code sense) worlds
are ones which did *not* have a significant native ecology, and the less
populous tainted-atmosphere worlds are (in some cases) home to more
interesting ecosystems.

Worth a thought, at least...

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1997 16:58 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Messing with the UWP

Howdy all,

Is it useful to include X-boat route information in the
UWP line?  Might Regina's UWP look like this:

Regina        1910 A788899-C  A Ri Cp              703 Im F7 V M8 D M6 V (1=
810,1912,2007)

Is there too much data there?
Is it too much strain for 80-column viewers?

Also, can the stellar data be pushed together like so?

Regina        1910 A788899-C  A Ri Cp              703 Im F7V M8D M6V (1810=
,1912,2007)


What are the current system description philosophies?

Too much information might make things scary (yech):

Regina        1910 A788899-C  A Ri Cp              703 Im(Extolay,Roup,Dino=
mn) : F7V M8D Y100- Y300169-9 SGG [Y400367-9 Y560-] F75022A-9 Y20016C-9 LGG=
 [F595269-9 F20036C-AN F564669-9 H43556C-AM *] : M6V YS00- Y210- [YS00- HS0=
0137-9 Y10046A-A] SGG [YS00- G200269-9 Y500- Y200- Y210- F534328-AM]


Hmmm, maybe just a skeleton map of the system can be appended:

Regina        1910 A788899-C  A Ri Cp              703 Im(Extolay,Roup,Dino=
mn) : F7V M8D ppG(pp)p(p)G(pApNpApLM*) : M6V pp(ssp)G(spppppM)

where

	* =3D main "world"
	p =3D planet (not mainworld)
	s =3D very small planet (not mainworld)
	G =3D gas giant
	b =3D asteroid belt (not mainworld)
	N =3D system naval base
	M =3D system military base
	A =3D agricultural colony
	L =3D research lab


Naaah.


A possibly wonderful way to encode/store/make available (previously
ungenerated) system data via computer is:

1) pick a random number generation algorithm

2) assign a unique seed for each member of a set of ungenerated systems

3) assign a system generation algorithm to these systems

4) "expand" the stats from the seed, using the unique seed to
   provide the random number that drives the generation algorithm
   =


This way, less data needs be stored, because specific stats are
obtainable simply by implementing the algorithm and seeding it
with that system's unique number.

Heck, the 'unique' number could just be a hash of the system's name
and its sector-hex number.  In this case, one would also need to
choose and announce a particular hash algorithm.  OR, the unique
number could be the sector hex number and a unique number assigned
to each sector.  Boy would that make things easier.

World Unique Seed # =3D  SSHHHH

	SS   =3D Sector Unique Number
	HHHH =3D World Hex Number (location within sector)

So, if the Spinward Marches Unique Number is 10,
Regina's Unique ID is 101910.

Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2109
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 19 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2110



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Alternate star mapping
Re: environment
Re: Environmental laws
re: Naval Ships and Transponders (was Piracy and fleet deployment)
IG Dead -- Newsfeed at 11...
Re: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re:  MST3K and Leroy and Douglas)
Re: Raiders vs. pirates
Re: Crimes
Re: Alternate star mapping
Cryptography (was Naval Ships & Transponders)
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2109
RE: IG Dead -- Newsfeed at 11...
Re: Deadman's Tumble
Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???
Re: Crimes
Re: High Guard

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 18 Nov 1997 17:06 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Alternate star mapping

Howdy all,

There may well be rival mapping systems employed by
pocket empires who don't care about the Imperium.
For example, the Darrians may be inclined to do
things their way; as a result, they may be using
8 x 8 subsector maps, or perhaps 7 x 7 subsector
maps (with Darrian at the center, of course).

I suppose there might even be jigsaw-bordered
hexagon maps.

Anyone think these ideas might be useful for something?

As an aside, I suppose the 8x10 subsector format was
due to page size;  my sense of proportion is slightly
offended by the non-square subsector;  I would prefer
8x8 subsectors.  I suppose I'm 20 years too late for
that (I'm sorry I didn't buy those little black books
that I saw sitting on that shelf in that science 
fiction store back in the 4th grade...).

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:34:27 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: environment

Glenn Crawford wrote:
>=20
> >assuming that "increasing" industrial production *will always be* all
> >that matters. Flawed flawed flawed.
> In what way? That is all that matters at voting time, or whenever they
> justify why they are oppressing people in non-democracies

Unfortunately, an awareness of larger environmental issues hasn't
entered the public consciousness. I hope that will change.

> >Environmentalism is not a political ideology, imho.
> exactly, IYHO. Oil spills, clearcutting, relaxing of pollution laws are
> happening now! People are fighting the clearcutting protesters because =
jobs
> and family come before environment. This is not a practical long-term v=
iew,
> but it is reality

Reality on this planet and at this particular juncture. The cheap clean
fusion energy postulated in the Traveller universe may change the need
for oil spills, clearcutting, etc...

It's true that baser human needs rise higher on the agenda when they are
not being met. But that's a symptom of a flawed system. If environmental
factors were added to the economic equation, then there would be no
demand for workers performing non-sustainable work.

> >Once we here on Terra "grow up" and the awareness of the tight bond
> >between human activity and the biosphere has entered the public
> >consciousness; then historians will look back on reckless industrial
> >pollution in the same way we look at the use of leeches in health care
> >during the middle ages. In the same way that the microscope and
> >micro-organisms revolutionized health care, global data acquisition
> >through satellites, scientific investigation and data networks will
> >revolutionize planetary care.
> You, me bucko, watch too much Star Trek

That may be, but it *is* happening. Witness the number of earth watching
satellites thrown up there in the last 15 years. See how much knowledge
has been gained with respect to the effect of El Ni=F1o on global climate=,
ozone depletion, reduction in rainforest, industrial pollution... and
how Human activity has transformed our planet.

Sooner or later, this knowledge will filter down to our collective
awareness, and influence the way we see ourselves and our world.

> >surely future society will realize that there
> >is *no such thing* as _limitless_ industrial growth -- there *is* a
> >point of diminishing returns, after which further industrial developme=
nt
> >will diminish sustainability of the biosphere and limit future growth.
> Maybe. Not likely though. Again, see Eastern Europe. Just because it
> endangers the entire biosphere does not mean we won't do it. There are =
still
> lead pipes used in plumbing. And that lesson was taught over 1500 years=
 ago

You have a cynical view of human nature, my view isn't necesarily
optimistic, it's just pragmatic. :)

If a society *doesn't* realize the intimate connection between human
activity and the environment and human mistreatment is allowed to
continue unchecked; then the environment will be degraded to the point
where it can no longer support the society.

Therefore, the only human societies left in the Traveller Universe will
be those that have learned the lessons of sustainable development...
those that had not will have died out long ago during the "Long
Night"...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:33:41 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Environmental laws

Glenn Crawford wrote:
> 
> >BTW I do NOT think environmental protection is just politically
> >correctness. As we (so far) only have one planet we should perhaps try to
> >avoid making a mess in our own (and only) nest.
> 
> Let me say, I do distinguish between word and deed. There is a politically
> correct environmentalism and practical. I hope we follow the latter. And as
> to your last statement,TOO LATE!

What is the distinction between "politically correct" environmentalism
and "practical"? There are practical things individuals can do, and
there are practical limits we may place on corporate activity. Deeds
follow words.

Yes, we have made a mess of the place. A recently released scientific
declaration, signed by over half of the world's Nobel Prize winners has
stated that it isn't too late to reverse most of the damage already
done. But the window of opportunity is very small... we have a few
decades at most.

It's appalling how little media attention such a clear and unambiguous
warning has garnered, considering how many illustrious and non-"fringe"
scientists supported it.

> As far as humanity naturally developing a "social" environmentalism, I say:

I say it's already happening. Look around you. How many people throw
away glass bottles and aluminum cans compared to 10-20 years ago? How
socially acceptable is smoking become in the western world? (The entire
province of B.C. is considering a ban in *all* public places) There are
newspaper recycling bins at shopping centres. Some grocery stores have
introduced plastic bag recycling bins.

It's a matter of time. We're rather late in developing a social
environmental ethic, but it is happening... I hope we're not *too*
late...

> Have you ever seen what was left of Eastern Europe after communism?

You keep using communist examples -- how can a small subset of Solomani
ideology be generalized to the whole of humaniti, including alien humans
such as Vilani?

To reiterate Rob, the Imperium is dominantly a Vilani culture, and the
Vilani tend to take the long view of things. They will take the
sustainability of development into account.

> Third World dictators want the economy to give them First World luxuries
> (read: weapons), and the environment is distant concern , at best. They
> would then complain, if we (the West) tried to get them to clean up before
> it is too late, that we were interfering in their culture.
> 
> I picture TL 10-11 worlds complaining loudly everytime the TL 12 worlds try
> to keep a world pristine or that the TL 12 world is unfairly denying them
> access to a better life.

On a balkanized planet such as ours, there is a lot of infighting as the
underdeveloped cry foul (rightly imho), since the developed has built
their wealth upon the backs of the underdeveloped nations, and now
expects them to build thier economies more slowly and carefully so as
not to make the same mistakes and degrade further the ecosystem we all
share. That analogy is irrelevant, as each world in Traveller is a
closed system. (for most intents and purposes)

I fail to see how you can generalize the actions of nation-states to the
actions of planetary governments. Any suitably advanced culture *will*
realize that there are limits to the amount of development an ecosystem
can sustain.

How will the TL 12 worlds deny TL 10-11 worlds a better life? Will they
impose environmental laws on TL 10-11 worlds? No, of course not. They
don't live there. They couldn't care less. They live on their own
planet.

The TL 10-11 world governments will regulate their *own* planetary
development, based on their own measurements and observations of the
planetary system on which they live. That is -- if they know what is
good for them.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 16:55:10 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Naval Ships and Transponders (was Piracy and fleet deployment)

>If the ships have transponders, how does then scouts undertake spy
>missions into enemy territory? They can't. So if they have transponders
>they need one with an on/off switch. This to means that it is
>possible for the IN to make transponders that can be turned off. And if
>tamperproof transponders.

You don't need to tamper with a transponder to turn it off; for example, 
covering its antennae with a suitably thick iron plate will probably work.
I grant that it's reasonable to assume pirates can turn their transponders
off...which only helps as long as the ship is not otherwise detectable; 
if a SDB detects a ship on IR and gets no transponder return it'll definitely
investigate


>And as we all know a codesystem is not perfect.
Interesting subquestion: are there still effectively-unbreakable public key
ciphers in the 3I, or have they figured out a better way to factor numbers?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:20:40 -0600
From: danger@visi.com
Subject: IG Dead -- Newsfeed at 11...

I'm just wondering if anybody knows the status of Imperium Games.  Their
website's most recent news is from June, their 'specials' are from GenCon, and
some of their "upcoming releases" are from late October/early November...

Anybody know anything?

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                             http://danger.home.ml.org/
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:07:57 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Veiled threats and all of that turned to ObTraveller (Re:  MST3K and Leroy and Douglas)

David J. Golden wrote:

[snip]
>>
>>If the shooter took several turns to aim at a target that was not aware of
>>the threat, fired from a supported position, with a weapon and ammo load
>he
>>was familiar with..  maybe.  I'd like to know what was used to get a
>>first-shot kill on a large animal at nearly 2km..  a sabot round?
>
>	No, it was a special load designed by somebody in the daycare center at
>Famille Spofulam ...


//Hengabar Mode= ON

	Great!  So the little bastards have been circumventing normal
family marketing protocols again, have they?  Ungrateful whelps!  Forget
who provides them with diapers and and food and rocket launchers, will
they?  Time for Unkie Hengie to go spank...  just as soon as I get this ABD
on and turn the gravity in there up to 3Gs!

//Hengabar Mode= OFF

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 20:18:03 -0800
From: "David P. Summers" <summers@alum.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Raiders vs. pirates

Mon, 17 Nov 1997 17:45:13 +0100 (MET), Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>It is also completely contrary to canon which has pirate ships show up in
>backwater systems a lot oftener than that.

I don't contend that the frequency of pirate occurances is OK (and since
the encounter
tables may be scewed to reflect that PC's meet more trouble than average
people,
I have no real opinion either way).  I just don't agree that piracy is so
impossible.

_______________________________________________________________
DSummers@Mail.ARC.NASA.gov

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 97 23:40:59 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Crimes

On 11/18/97 at 01:37 PM,  Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net> said:

>> I do agree with you that as all Industrial worlds HAS to have tainted or
>> worse atmospheres in order to be so rated indicate that the Imperium
>> doesn't really care much about the environment.

>Just to throw in a bit of heresy (sorry to muscle in on your turf, Eris),

Welcome to the dark side. ;->

>have you ever considered another way of reading this correlation?  Perhaps
>Imperial law or custom only allows large-scale industrial development on
>worlds which have an existing taint when settled!  The T-prime worlds
>(with, presumably, richer ecosystems) are purposefully limited to
>(relatively) light, non-polluting industry in order to protect them.

>I realize that, in reality, tainted-atmosphere worlds would often have
>ecologies just as 'valuable' as those on T-prime worlds, so this idea
>indicates a significant degree of T-prime-ecosystem bias in the
>Imperium...or perhaps all the Industrial (in the trade code sense) worlds
>are ones which did *not* have a significant native ecology, and the less
>populous tainted-atmosphere worlds are (in some cases) home to more
>interesting ecosystems.

>Worth a thought, at least...

Personally, I think it's a "feature" of the world generation system. I
don't take the tainted atmosphere code all that seriously myself.  Some
worlds have serious taints, but it could also just be a little smog, acid
rain or the occasional bad smell around the major industrial areas. 

At the same time, there might be taints that "color" the air of *any* world
with an atmosphere. The smell of a world's air is a piece of information I
pass along to players when their character's disembark on new planets, "The
sharp smell of ozone mixed with a whiff of chlorine greets you as you draw
the first breath of fresh air you've had in 3 weeks." ;->


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 00:07:23 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

On 11/18/97 at 05:06 PM,  "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> said:

>There may well be rival mapping systems employed by
>pocket empires who don't care about the Imperium.
>For example, the Darrians may be inclined to do
>things their way; as a result, they may be using
>8 x 8 subsector maps, or perhaps 7 x 7 subsector
>maps (with Darrian at the center, of course).

>I suppose there might even be jigsaw-bordered
>hexagon maps.

How about hex-shaped subsectors composed of 37 hexes?  

                          ____
                         /    \
                    ____/      \____
                   /    \      /    \
              ____/      \____/      \____
             /    \      /    \      /    \
        ____/      \____/      \____/      \____
       /    \      /    \      /    \      /    \
      /      \____/      \____/      \____/      \
      \      /    \      /    \      /    \      /
       \____/      \____/      \____/      \____/
       /    \      /    \      /    \      /    \
      /      \____/      \____/      \____/      \
      \      /    \      /    \      /    \      /
       \____/      \____/      \____/      \____/
       /    \      /    \      /    \      /    \
      /      \____/      \____/      \____/      \      
      \      /    \      /    \      /    \      /
       \____/      \____/      \____/      \____/
       /    \      /    \      /    \      /    \
      /      \____/      \____/      \____/      \
      \      /    \      /    \      /    \      /
       \____/      \____/      \____/      \____/
            \      /    \      /    \      /   
             \____/      \____/      \____/
                  \      /    \      /    
                   \____/      \____/
                        \      /
                         \____/
            
Eris,
    really, really a heretic! ;->            
            
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 22:00:33 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Cryptography (was Naval Ships & Transponders)

>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:55:44 +0100 (MET)
>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Naval Ships and Transponders (was Piracy and fleet deployment)
....
>possible for the IN to make transponders that can be turned off. And if

  The IN is supposed to have units built with on/off switches.

>they got it, you can be sure that someone else has it. Out with

  Canonically - whether I like it or not - they're tamperproof once
built. OK, a TL 20-odd EW specialist could probably talk one into
selling fast food or running an advice column, but everyone else can
only ignore or kill the black box in question. Useful examination is out.

>identify themself. A ship travelling on a top secret mission only needs to
>send the right code to the SDB for it to understand who it is. And as we
>all know a codesystem is not perfect. 

  Without the SDG transponders I'd go with universal transmission; any
non-military ship not complying gets thoroughly messed with - fines,
delays, boarding parties, revoking certificates for repeat offenders,
going after the owner, etc. Warships can do whatever, but sniff each
other with (sector?) centrally issued one-write pads specific to each
potential ship that they'll encounter in their scheduled run and environs.

  Greeting kills the pads usefulness, but presumably you then secure comm
a new one-write pad, possibly with a rider from the previous (in case
someone is trying to read your lasercomm off your hull). You no longer
have a tamper-proof black box on board - you now have a dedicated data
bank fitted with security and destruct devices up the yin-yang.

>Just some ranting, but this transponder issue is to me an idiotic
>invetion. 

  Well, maybe, but it's GDW's invention. They chose to make transponders
fool-proof once the IN deployed the tech. Not ours to reason why...

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson,
                        Vancouver, British Columbia

The CT Creed: "There is no Game but Traveller, and High Guard is its' Product"

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 21:44:08 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote

> Glenn Crawford wrote:
> > 
> > > 3) Ecological destruction
> > 
> > Oh come on now!
> 
> OH oh
> 
> > The Imperium is not a liberal democracy. And I just cannot see them as being
> > politically correct on the environment. Any type of non-democracy  (and a
> > lot of democracies) does not give two shakes of a rat's ass about the
> > environment. Increasing industrial production is all that matters (see late
> > 20th C Terran history, USSR) Why else are ALL industrial worlds tainted.

> WHoaH! Stop! Wait! <rant ON>
> 
> You are making *seriously* flawed assumptions. You are assuming the
> reason why nation-states of the present day don't care about
> environmental degredation is because they are "non-democracies", you are
> assuming that "increasing" industrial production *will always be* all
> that matters. Flawed flawed flawed.
> 
> Environmentalism is not a political ideology, imho. It is a reasonable
> outgrowth of technological and social development. Once science has
> advanced enough to be used on a global scale to realize the cumulative
> effects of local environmental degredation -- the effects of human
> habitation on global ecosystems and climate -- then Environmentalism
> will become an imperative of any society which wants to make a planet a
> home.

Why do you assume that most Imperial Societies will want to make a
planet a home.  If they mess this one up they have 11,000 more to use
later.

> I don't think you can take industry in 19-20 C. Earth and generalize
> that across all high-tech TL 9+ planets throughout the Imperium. Surely
> the majority will have learned from the mistakes of 20th Century Terra
> and other less wise species... surely deliberate wide scale
> environmental destruction will be seen in a similar light to other
> crimes against society... surely future society will realize that there
> is *no such thing* as _limitless_ industrial growth -- there *is* a
> point of diminishing returns, after which further industrial development
> will diminish sustainability of the biosphere and limit future growth.

Who says they want future growth ?  Villani mindset - if it was good
enough for Great Great Grandfather it is good enough for me, If it is
not broken don't fix it, etc.

But given the way so many people in the Imperium are already living on
planets with non terrestrial biospheres does this not imply that even if
the environment is dammaged it will not have any effect on their
economy.

In Traveller the environment does not affect the GDP unless the planet
was "Rich" (Government 4-9, Atmosphere of 6 or 8, and Population 6-8)and
looses that classification or if it becomes poor (Atmophere 2-5 and
Hydrographics 3 or less).  Therefore has it not been canonically
established that the environment does not matter in Traveller.

It is a _big_ galaxy out there, even if it is/was true that their must
be limits to growth on Earth (I don't neccesarily agree with this
proposition either but assuming it is true for the purposes of this
discussion) we can continue to grow as we expand.

Traveller is all about economics (just like real life) and one of the
paradigms of economics is that as the quantity supplied of a good
increases the market equilibrium price will decrease.  This applies to
the "good" of a clean environment just as it does to any other good. 
This is why environmentalism has made more headway in Europe than in the
United States, and within the United States environmentalism has made
more headway in the east than in the West.  The more unsullied
wilderness you have the _less_ it will be worth to you.

I live in Anchorage, Alaska the largest city within 1,500 miles, it has
a population of over 250,000 people.  There are wolf packs, eagles, and
bears within city limits.  I see moose all the time.  Their are fabulous
mountains, scenes of epic beauty, world class hunting and fishing.  Yet
here I am sitting in front of a computer typing.  Here in Alaska the
quantity supplied of wilderness is vast.  Therefore it has a low
economic value.  As a more concrete example Anchorage has one of the
lowest rates of recycling among cites its size in this part of the
country.  The reason why is pretty simple - at current rates of landfill
usage Anchorage will take 50 years to fill its landfill.  It would take
Anchorage over 50,000 years to fill up with trash.  So we do not place a
high value on not throwing things away.  It will work exactly the same
way in the Third Imperium, they have 11,000 + planets.  Most of their
planets have less than 1,000,000 people.  They will not value wilderness
in the same way that many 20th century urban members of western society
who rarely see wilderness do.

It's all Econ 101 folks.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 07:14:15 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2109

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:27:44 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 17:55:44 +0100 (MET)
>From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
>Subject: Naval Ships and Transponders (was Piracy and fleet deployment)
>
>Just one question. Does naval ships have transponders? 
>This would make a big difference in the piracy and fleet deployment
>thread.
>
>If the ships have transponders, how does then scouts undertake spy
>missions into enemy territory? They can't. So if they have transponders
>they need one with an on/off switch. This to means that it is
>possible for the IN to make transponders that can be turned off. And if
>they got it, you can be sure that someone else has it. Out with
>tamperproof transponders. We don't want that. So that means that naval
>ships do not have transponders and therefor propably have a code system to
>identify themself. A ship travelling on a top secret mission only needs to
>send the right code to the SDB for it to understand who it is. And as we
>all know a codesystem is not perfect. 
>
>Just some ranting, but this transponder issue is to me an idiotic
>invetion. 

Not really. Think of the Transponder as being a civilianised IFF (Identify
Friend or Foe) system ... it is interrogated by Radar (or whatever *active*
sensors are appropriate) and, assuming that the Radar has the right code in its
signal, then the IFF Box sends out the appropriate response. This is all handled
automatically and simply means that the Radar's integral computers show the
contact as a "friendly". This means that the IFF system simply does not react if
hit by a non-authorised Radar/Active Sensor.

Of course, this is what a *military* transponder does ... civilian transponders
are (allegedly, according to the late and unlamented TNE) much more complex.

I would suggest that there is no reason for a military ship to use a civilian
transponder system ... and that there is no need for them to worry about on/off
transponders for them. Unless you have the correct codes built into the active
sensor signals their IFF system simply remains passive.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:41:26 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: IG Dead -- Newsfeed at 11...

Well, they may not be updating their webpage, but Naval Architect just hit the shelves...

- ----------
From: 	danger@visi.com[SMTP:danger@visi.com]
Sent: 	Tuesday, November 18, 1997 5:20 PM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	IG Dead -- Newsfeed at 11...

I'm just wondering if anybody knows the status of Imperium Games.  Their
website's most recent news is from June, their 'specials' are from GenCon, and
some of their "upcoming releases" are from late October/early November...

Anybody know anything?

- -- 
Dane "Danger" Johnson
danger@visi.com                             http://danger.home.ml.org/
PGP Key fingerprint = 51 F5 D5 07 4B 7E EF D4  59 F1 26 72 65 D8 9C E4 
"There are times when verbal ingenuity is not enough." --Dr. B. Banzai

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:04:17 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Deadman's Tumble

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Tim Connors wrote:

> >
> =09What would cause a ship, which is acted upon by
> =09no outside force, to begin tumbling? If it did tumble,
> =09why would it tumble end-over-end?
>=20
It=B4s because the angular momenta are not totally independent of one=20
another in a real physical boby. As mentioned earlier, every body tries=20
to revolve around its main axis. It this just is not the case, it tries=20
to stabilize by changing the axis of rotation to the stable one.

This is why tumbling starts and has to end. But the time between these=20
two can last long.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:59:04 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Aslan pens and penmanship???

On Mon, 10 Nov 1997 SemoFetus@aol.com wrote:

> Being a parasitic vampiric tick, two things have spurred me into some sor=
t of
> pathetic action.  All this talk of the Bilanidin font has piqued my inter=
est
> in making a font, and the idea that there are two fonts in Aslan (one mal=
e
> and one female) also interested me.
>=20
> My question is, what do you think Aslan pens _look_ like (or not pens, bu=
t
> "ur-pens", y'know, the stuff that they'd carve into stone and mud with :)=
  So
> I can get an idea of the look for their language.  I've seen flowery Asla=
n
> "font" type in some pictures I believe, however, I'm already getting some
> interesting ideas...
>=20
In Traveller=B4s Digest #17 an article about Trokh was published, with=20
examples of both, male and female written Trokh.

> I'm thinking two possibilities for the male script.  Made up mainly of
> straight horizontal lines.  UNLESS, there is the possibility that the mal=
es
> are much more "artistic" in general design, at which point it would be mo=
re
> flowery, flowing, and ornate.
>=20
> I think in either case I'm going to make the female script to be more
> business-like and traditional.
>=20
>=20
IIRC, the female Trokh was composited of straight lines, specially for=20
mathematic formulas. The male Trokh was more artistic. I am not sure if=20
there was a third, handwritten one for the females, had to reread it.
Sorry, if this is coming late.

L.A.
=20

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 23:44:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Crimes

In mail you write:

>>The Imperium is not a liberal democracy. And I just cannot see them as being
>>politically correct on the environment. Any type of non-democracy  (and a
>>lot of democracies) does not give two shakes of a rat's ass about the
>>environment. Increasing industrial production is all that matters (see late
>>20th C Terran history, USSR) Why else are ALL industrial worlds tainted.
>>They might have laws on the books to "get" worlds that step out of line, but
>>they would certainly not give damn about a world being polluted unless it
>>was the hunting preserve of some high noble.
>
> I do agree with you that as all Industrial worlds HAS to have tainted or
> worse atmospheres in order to be so rated indicate that the Imperium
> doesn't really care much about the environment.

Or else the environmental regs are such that it's easier to comply if
the atmosphere is already tainted. Or on tainted worlds the measures
required just to survive make the pollution controls "easier".

See, there can be several explanations.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:01:13 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: High Guard

Dom Mooney writes:
>Isn't Armour limited to something like TL+3? TCS had soemthing about it.
>(Just off the top of my head looking at the TL12 Armour 17 SDB)

Now that you mention it, I believe you're right. I forgot. I guess I'll
have to change that to factor 15. You can still get it with a TL 15
version. BTW. I forgot one dodge that I had planned for the SDBs: To use
the left-over cargo space for carrying a squadron of fighters.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2110
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 19 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2111



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Navy ships and transponders
Insurance issues (a PIRACY! spinoff)
Re: Compiled Sector Data Available
Re; IG Dead -- Newsfeed at 11...
challenge and rob prior! [was: crimes against the empire]
environment redux
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Re: Alternate star mapping
Injury
Re: Environmental Law
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
IG progress
Naval Architect
Re: Insurance issues (a PIRACY! spinoff)
Re: Messing with the UWP

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:38:33 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Navy ships and transponders

Tommy Grav writes:

>Just one question. Does naval ships have transponders? 

Yes, but they can be turned off. And there are canonical references to
trick transponders with several different signals built into them (What
I can't recall is if there has ever been a reference to a transponder
that could be programmed to send any signal at all). So the Deyo chip
based transponder (which is supposed to have been introduced in the late
11th Century) is in conflict with other canonical sources. When that
happens you either take the latest version as the truth or the one that
makes most sense. As you point out, several Imperial organizations would
need special transponders, so it the TNE version dosen't really make
sense. As far as I am concerned such transponders exist. And if they
exist, some of them could fall into the wrong hands.

>This would make a big difference in the piracy and fleet deployment
>thread.

Not from my side. I've always assumed that fake transponder signals are
possible. What I consider very unlikely is that you can visit a starport
using a fake signal without running a grave risk of getting busted. It's
like using a car with fake licence plates. You can get away with it for
a while if you are lucky, but the moment someone bothers to check the
numbers on the motor your luck runs out. So, IMO, if you plan to do some
pirating you can use a fake signal and jump out again without doing any
local business if you don't find a suitable victim. And if you plan to
conduct business in the system, you can use your real signal. But you
can't use your real signal and then do some pirating if a good opportunity
shows up and you can't use a fake signal and then conduct business as
usual if you don't find a suitable victim.
 

      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:57:06 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Insurance issues (a PIRACY! spinoff)

The cost of anti-piracy insurance will depend on the risk of losing the ship
and/or cargo. Let us as an example take a 600 T, jump-1 freighter worth
MCr124 and assume that it's average cargo amounts to 400 T with an average 
value of Cr5,000/T. Let's further assume that it is jumping back and forth
between a system with more than adequate defenses and that the risk of
encountering a pirate in the other system is 10%, which is pretty close to 
the figure you get if you go by the encounter tables (And, frankly, if the
systems have no defenses of their own and patrols are as infrequent as the
encounter tables also makes them, I see no reason why the risks shouldn't be
that high; piracy is pretty lucrative if you can be sure of getting a good
chance at capturing a whole ship (My claim is that pirates mostly wouldn't
get such a chance)). Let's further assume that the risk of gettting caught by
the pirate is 10%. Finally, let's assume that most pirates are loopy enough
to only capture cargoes and that the chance of losing the ship is only 10% of
the chance of losing the cargo. Insurance payments would then come to an
addtional Cr360/T for cargo carried to the dangerous system. If the pirates
are a bit more like real life criminals, they will take the ship if they can,
which will push the insurance up to Cr3,150/T (BTW. We shall have to ignore
the fact that these figures clash horribly with the established freight and
passenger rates).

So how much traffic do you need to or through a system to make a guard ship
a better value for money? If you insist that the pirates only takes cargoes
(Sheesh, I find it difficult even to supposes such a thing), then if more
than 64,800 T of freight pass through the system, it becomes cheaper to hire
a MCr350 guard ship. That's 162 trips through the system, or 13 ships going
back and forth between the system and the neighbor (each ship jumping to the
system half the time and jumping back to a safe system the other half). If we
go by the (IMO) much more reasonable assumption that a pirate knows a good
thing when he sees it and will take any ship he happens to get hold of away
with him, you only need more than 7400 T of freight passing through to make a
guard ship worthwhile. That's 18.5 trips through the system, or less than two
ships going back and forth.

But are the 10% chance of a pirate catching his prey plausible? Well, if he
is the kind that takes the whole ship, then one must admit that it is. Even
if he only catches one ship per year, that still comes to MCr12.4 (more or
less; he may get more than 10% for the ship, but OTOH, the ship may not be
brand new). Some of his victims will be worth less -- a 200 T Free Trader like
the ones PCs are apt to own would only be worth 1-2 MCr to him -- and he may
have to leave some systems without getting any chance of a capture, but if
patrols are as few as the encounter tables have it, then he may get more than
one chance in other systems. Let's say he gets 50 chances each year; that
would mean 5 captures and be enough to keep him in the black even with mostly
run-down Free Traders and only an occasional bigger ship for prey. But what
if the pirate don't take the ships? 5 600 T freighters would net him 2,000 T
of cargo. If we assume an average value of Cr5,000/T, the whole would amount
to 10 million MCr -- less than 2 million when fenced. And that is if all five
victims are 600 T freighters. A 400 T Merchant has only half the cargo
capacity, a Free Trader one fifth. It's true that a shipload of cybernectic
parts or pharmaceuticals or radioactives can brighten any pirate's day, but
how often do you send 400 T of radioactives to a world with a population too
small to have a navy of its own? And when you do, what are the chances of a
pirate being able to intercept it? And if the chances are high, don't you
think you'd charter an escort for that one trip (or, more likely, persuade
the local Navy CO to provide one)?

It would appear that the risk of running into a pirate must be much smaller
than the encounter tables imply. If the risk of running into a pirate in a
backwater system was really anyway near 10% then the losses would be
staggering. And if they are much, much smaller than the rules imply -- I
think someone suggested one or two pirates at a time per sector, and unless
I misunderstood him completely David said that he thought it would be a few
cargoes per year for the entire Imperium -- then won't your PCs start to
wonder when they keep beating the odds and run into yet another pirate?
Mine would (Well, they would if I hadn't made clear that pirates are as
non-debatable (in my own, personal, campaign, that is) as flat galaxies ;-).


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:20:14 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

In a message dated 97-11-18 05:59:30 EST, you write:

<<    I'm a little late to this dance, but with all the sector data being
 complied, has there been given any thought to the next step, which is to
 make sure that the data is revised to fit whatever new star system
 generation sequence will be developed (or already developed but not
 published) for "T4"?  IMHO, now would be a perfect time to step back and do
 such an edit.  I would be more than happy to humbly volunteer my services
 for that project, as I'm sure many other people would as well.
 
 Regards,
 
 Harold>>

I think the first step is to make a full file with all the know data for 1105
in it. Then, to distill the file into what is known and doesn't change
between eras (world size, etc). The to look at what the file format should
be. And finally discuss changes to the data itself.

Thanks for volunteering.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1997 15:09:23 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re; IG Dead -- Newsfeed at 11...

IG's accounts receivable department was still functioning on October 24, when
they charged my credit card for something (hopefully Naval Architect).  

Mind you, I haven't received anything yet, even though the package Andy sent
from England In early November took less than a week to arrive.  Maybe CORE
should take over the distribution?  Or maybe IG is up to their old tricks of
charging before shipping?  (Come to think of it, my last order wasn't shipped
until after I emailed them to query the charge.  I'm going to be checking the
postmark on this parcel very carefully.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:16:35 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: challenge and rob prior! [was: crimes against the empire]

Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) replied:
>>I get some kind of Deja vu all over again. Someone wrote an article in
>>Challenge about Imperial law with the same flaws (carbon copy of US law)
>>and someone sent a letter with almost exactly the same criticism. Have I
>>entered a timeloop here?
>That was me (the letter), in Challenge #53.  Nice to know someone actually
>read it :-)

I read it and have just reread it.  And a jolly good letter it was too.

Perhaps you should write something similar for the next JTAS about the
last!  Which brings me circuitously around to a question - does anyone know
what's up with the next JTAS?


tc
"Am I worthy to converse with someone *published* in _Challenge_?"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:49:35 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: environment redux

>You have a cynical view of human nature, my view isn't necesarily
optimistic, it's just pragmatic. :)

Cynical? Me?
Well, yes. 8^/
I am cynical, but on the other hand, if things do work out and the
collective idiot known as the human race works things out, I will apologize.
But I have this nasty feeling that we will then say "hey, we don't have to
not pollute cuz we gots lots o'places to put it where it won't bother anyone
anymore"
As far as plentiful energy from fusion goes, I don't see it happening. We
cannot even get the damn thing working because there is no money in it (lots
of money for IC engine research though!)

I just see the Imperium as rising. Rising means development, development
means pollution.
Environmental restrictions restrict immediate growth. Therefore the Imperium
would not care about the environment that much. Besides there are lots more
worlds where that came from. This is not to say that they will not have
rules, this is just to say they would not be of any real importance

BTW, I used the industrial equals tainted as an example. I ignore the
tainted part, I make industrial as TL 5+, Population 8-9. Rules lawyer I am
not, so there!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:38:00 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

>
   Hi.
   
> From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
   
   [sniparoo]
> This is why environmentalism has made more headway in Europe than in the
> United States, and within the United States environmentalism has made
> more headway in the east than in the West.  The more unsullied
> wilderness you have the _less_ it will be worth to you.
   
   Environmentalism has made more headway in Europe than in the US?  Do
   you know something I don't?  Last time I checked the US had some of
   the strictest environmental laws in the world, particularly in the
   areas of automobile emissions, air pollution, acid rain, radioactive
   waste disposal, and radiation exposure.  (I'll grant you that Europe
   has stricter land management and forestry laws.  No surprise there.)
   I'm not just comparing the US to former communist countries either.
   Northern Italy has the worst air pollution in the /world/.  (Beijing,
   China is a distant second.)  Pollution in the North Sea and the Baltic
   is worse than in any US body of water, including such infamous
   cesspools as Chesapeak Bay and Lake Erie.
   
   Here in Pittsburgh (where we know a thing or two about pollution
   control 8^), our environmental management and restoration industries
   are experiencing a boom of exports to Europe due to increasing
   environmental awareness over there.  They have a ways to go before
   they catch up with us, but from what I can see over here (a skewed
   picture, admittedly), they seem committed to doing so.  They have
   a longer tradition of environmental preservation than we do, but
   that tradition needs to be updated to deal with modern problems.
   
   Sorry to get off topic.  I realize that this was not the main thrust
   of your post.  I now return you to discussion about Traveller, already
   in progress...
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:48:58 -0600
From: "Steven Bonneville" <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

"Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca> wrote:

> There may well be rival mapping systems employed by
> pocket empires who don't care about the Imperium.
> For example, the Darrians may be inclined to do
> things their way; as a result, they may be using
> 8 x 8 subsector maps, or perhaps 7 x 7 subsector
> maps (with Darrian at the center, of course).

This seems reasonable.  I don't see why the Zhodani, for instance,
would use the Imperial sector mapping system.  As I recall, they
don't have much of a sector level of government (jumping straight
from something at a "subsector" scale to a regional "provincial"
scale midway between sector and domain, but more irregular).

I can certainly see it being used by the Imperium and Solomani,
and by nearby pocket empires.  Nearby Vargr, for instance, might
adopt it.  I think that somewhere there's a statement that the
Vilani developed the sector system pre-First Imperium, in the
- -9000 to -10000 time range, so I'd think that the former Vilani
territory in the Julian states would use it too.

Note that Vland (Vland 1717) is near the center of Vland sector.
If we call 1719 the center of the sector, the Vland system would
need to be moving coreward at 180 km/s in order to move two
parsecs toward the core in ten thousand years; high, but perhaps 
not completely out of the question.  If 180 km/s is too high,
perhaps a somewhat lower speed and a later mapping revision which
slightly moves the sector borders is enough.  It looks like the
Imperium is using Reference (Core 0140) to anchor the sector 
system by the time of the First Survey.

Vilani subsector maps might look odd, though.  Besides being
two thousand years out of date in AD 4521, they'll be using the
deshi (0.67 parsec) instead of the parsec on their maps.  So
instead of 8x10 parsecs, a Vilani subsector is 12x15 deshi, and
a sector 48x60 deshi.

  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:43:40 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Injury

Let's discuss the ways people can get hurt (as opposed to just saying "yo=
u
take 3D hits).

Marc Miller


TYPES OF INJURY
Type	Rationale	Gross Effect	Typical Protection	Typical Source
Bang	Impact Sound	Deafen	Helmet. Plugs.	Explosion. Gunfire. Flash-Bang.
Blast	Overpressure	Hits	Armor.	Explosion.
Blow	Blunt Trauma	Hits	Armor.	Fist. Club. Fall. Collision.
Burn	Heat	Hits	Armor. 	Environ. Fire. Nuke..
Cold	Lack of Heat	Hits.	CW Clothes.	Environ.
Cut	Blade	Hits	Armor.	Blade.
Emp	EM Pulse	Fries chips	Shielding.	Nuke.
Flash	Light	Blind	Helmet.	Environ. Star. Nuke. Flash-Bang.
Frag	Shrapnel. Debris	Hits.	Armor.	Explosion.
Gas	Respiration	Hits per turn. Flee.	Respirator. Vac Suit.	Environ. Indus=
try.
Gas Weapon..=20
HFE	Microwave	Hits	Shielding. Armor.	Environ. Industry.=20
Mag	Magnetic	Hits. Stun..		Environ. Industry. Magnetic Weapon.
Pain	Direct Nerve Stim	Stun. Panic.	Armor.	Environ.
Poison	Ingestion	Hits	Caution.	Environ.=20
Psi	Mental Effort	Hits. Pain. Stun.		Psionic Individual. Psionic Weapon.
Rad	Radiation	Hits	Armor.	Environ. Nuke. Neutron Bomb. Xray Laser.
Shock	Electricity	Hits	Armor.	Environ. Charge Weapon.=20
Son	HF Sound	Stun.	Helmet.	Environ.
Tranq1	Drug	Paralyze	Armor.	Dart Weapon.
Tranq2	Drug	Knockout	Armor.	Dart Weapon.
Tranq3	Drug	Hits	Armor.	Dart Weapon.
Twist	Gravitic	Hits		Grav Weapons.
Vac	Decompression	Hits per turn	Vac Suit. Patches.	Environ.

Effects:
	Hits-nD. Roll n (where n is a number) dice. Impose each individual die t=
o
reduce the target=92s Physical Characteristics (Strength, Dexterity, or
Endurance) in any order. When one characteristic is reduced to zero, the
character is unconsicous. When=20
	Blind-nD. Roll n (where n is a number) dice for the number of combat rou=
nds
the target is blinded. Character cannot see.
	Deafen-nD. Roll n (where n is a number) dice for the number of combat ro=
unds
the target is deafened. Character cannot hear.
	Stun-nD. Roll n (where n is a number) dice for the number of combat roun=
ds
the target is stunned. Character cannot attack (or do any offensive
activity). Personal defense remains possible.
	Knockout. The target is rendered unconscious. Character must roll End or
less to regain consciousness.
	Paralyze. Character cannot move or do anything. Character must roll End =
or
less to regain ability to act.
	Fry. Electronic components are destroyed. They cannot be repaired; they =
must
be replaced.
	Dead. Target is dead.

------------------------------

Date: 19 Nov 1997 15:44:00 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Environmental Law

Viliani culture originated on a world where the environment was not terribly
friendly to humans. Food, for example, required extensive preparations and
there was a whole class of people who prepared food and watched the
community's nutrition.

In these circumstances, I can easily see environmental concerns being a major
factor in decision making.  Eg. the shuglii (sp?) prohibits a new brick
plant, because it might damage the only good crops with vitamin B5.

Notice that I am not talking Greenpeace-style "Hug-the-Seals" activism, but
rather a cultural predisposition to considering _all_ the costs of a
decision, including environmental modification.  This fits in with what we
know of Vilani culture from "Vilani & Vargr".  Notice that it doesn't
preclude enviromental destruction, just ensures that the costs of the
destruction are factored into any decision.  Don't forget, these are also the
folks who view environmental warfare as an option (because destroying a
planet's environment may be cheaper than destroying its military)!!

Consider, for example, the Vilani concept of "owning" an idea.  If you invent
something, you own the idea.  If I improve it, I still owe you money because
the original idea was your's.  Yes, this tends to discourage innovation. (On
the other hand, no Microsoft-style corporations.  There are benefits to being
Vilani!) Vilani culture is _not_ 20th century NorAm culture, and we lose a
lot if we try to make it like that.

The key here is that environmental costs are built into the economic model,
rather than being added-on downstream.  Thus, when you manufacture an item
you must include the cost of disposing of it safely.  (Whether that is a
landfill, a recycling centre, or just tossing it into the sun depends on the
situation.)  This is not hard to do, and when "long term planning" means
centuries, not a couple of years, it is even essential.  

I do not see the Imperium taking an interest in whether you cut down a tree
in your front yard.  I _do_ see the Imperial authorities (who are cultural
Vilani) stopping a megacorporation from strip-mining a world and then leaving
the locals with a poisoned biosphere.  If the corporation owns an
_uninhabited_ planet, then it is their property and their problem, unless
there is a reason for the Imperium to take an interest (eg. strategic site
for a colony). 

Suppose, for example, that a world has granted LSP a license to exploit
lanthanum deposits.  LSP wants to strip-mine (cheapest), but the run-off
would kill a fishery.  Imperial Law would support the world in preventing LSP
from doing that without agreeing to compensation.  Assuming that LSP had
exclusive ownership of the continent, Imperial Law _wouldn't_ be concerned
with what they did as long as the effect stayed within the boundaries of the
continent.

This also makes sense from the standpoint of economic imperialism.  The
Imperium encourages worlds to use nice clean Fusion Plus (manufactured by
you-know-who).  


Another thing to remember is that Imperial Law deals mainly with interactions
between subject worlds, or between the Imperium and subject worlds.  Internal
affairs are just that: internal.  I see the environmental aspects of Imperial
Law mainly being invoked when outside agents interfere with a world (just as
the Rules of War prohibit outside interference in a local conflict).  But
they also provide a reason for the Imperium to replace local companies with
its own higher-tech eco-friendly companies.  Remember the Rules of Contact
from Milieu 0, after all!!!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:34:53 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

Peter Newman wrote:
> 
> Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote
> > Environmentalism is not a political ideology, imho. It is a reasonable
> > outgrowth of technological and social development. Once science has
> > advanced enough to be used on a global scale to realize the cumulative
> > effects of local environmental degredation -- the effects of human
> > habitation on global ecosystems and climate -- then Environmentalism
> > will become an imperative of any society which wants to make a planet a
> > home.
> 
> Why do you assume that most Imperial Societies will want to make a
> planet a home.  If they mess this one up they have 11,000 more to use
> later.

So what you're saying is most societies in the Imperium are roving
strip-miners, who move in and then pull up stakes and move out.

I don't think so.

It may be that the majority of low pop worlds (< POP 6) are mining
colonies, or other small installations who don't have to worry much
about environmental degredation.

But the vast majority of POP 6+ worlds can't just up and leave, lock
stock and barrel. Do you realize the costs involved? They are there to
stay.

> > I don't think you can take industry in 19-20 C. Earth and generalize
> > that across all high-tech TL 9+ planets throughout the Imperium. Surely
> > the majority will have learned from the mistakes of 20th Century Terra
> > and other less wise species... surely deliberate wide scale
> > environmental destruction will be seen in a similar light to other
> > crimes against society... surely future society will realize that there
> > is *no such thing* as _limitless_ industrial growth -- there *is* a
> > point of diminishing returns, after which further industrial development
> > will diminish sustainability of the biosphere and limit future growth.
> 
> Who says they want future growth ?  Villani mindset - if it was good
> enough for Great Great Grandfather it is good enough for me, If it is
> not broken don't fix it, etc.

Maybe they don't. They want efficiency. That proves my point. They won't
be worrying about industrial growth at any cost, and will always factor
in future impact of their decisions upon their society.

> But given the way so many people in the Imperium are already living on
> planets with non terrestrial biospheres does this not imply that even if
> the environment is dammaged it will not have any effect on their
> economy.

I'm speaking in terms of worlds with biospheres. (terrestrial or
otherwise) Obviously, polluting a world that can't support life is less
of a concern.

> In Traveller the environment does not affect the GDP unless the planet
> was "Rich" (Government 4-9, Atmosphere of 6 or 8, and Population 6-8)and
> looses that classification or if it becomes poor (Atmophere 2-5 and
> Hydrographics 3 or less).  Therefore has it not been canonically
> established that the environment does not matter in Traveller.
> 
> It is a _big_ galaxy out there, even if it is/was true that their must
> be limits to growth on Earth (I don't neccesarily agree with this
> proposition either but assuming it is true for the purposes of this
> discussion) we can continue to grow as we expand.

??? You don't believe Earth's resources are finite? *Obviously* there is
a limit to growth on Earth. There is a limit to growth on any planet.
Each world is a *closed* system. You simply can't import fresh air
(easily) once you pollute it.

> Traveller is all about economics (just like real life) and one of the

I don't believe real life should be *all* about economics. I think it's
a failing of our society that this seems to be *the* priority. What's
the economic value of a human life?

The problem with economics is that it only uses one side of the balance
sheet: Profit and growth. It assumes resources are infinite, and
economic growth is mandatory. It isn't able to account for non-economic
factors necessary for life on Earth.

> paradigms of economics is that as the quantity supplied of a good
> increases the market equilibrium price will decrease.  This applies to
> the "good" of a clean environment just as it does to any other good.
> This is why environmentalism has made more headway in Europe than in the
> United States, and within the United States environmentalism has made
> more headway in the east than in the West.  The more unsullied
> wilderness you have the _less_ it will be worth to you.

A clean environment is not a "good". That's absurd. A clean environment
is a *necessity*. It is needed for life. You can't put a price on that.

Are you seriously saying we should limit unsullied wilderness to a few
parks in mega-cities so they are worth more to us?

I don't believe that nature follows human-made laws of economics. The
larger, the more diverse, the more pristine our environment is, the
*more* it is worth to us. The more forests we have, the more robust our
biosphere is. It can process more pollutants. It is less prone to wild
shifts in equilibrium.

One of the factors influencing our climate is the fact that vast tracts
of rainforest is being destroyed in Brazil and Southeast Asia. This
means that less carbon dioxide is being converted to oxygen, and global
temperatures are rising.

> I live in Anchorage, Alaska the largest city within 1,500 miles, it has
> a population of over 250,000 people.  There are wolf packs, eagles, and
> bears within city limits.  I see moose all the time.  Their are fabulous
> mountains, scenes of epic beauty, world class hunting and fishing.  Yet
> here I am sitting in front of a computer typing.  Here in Alaska the
> quantity supplied of wilderness is vast.  Therefore it has a low
> economic value.  As a more concrete example Anchorage has one of the
> lowest rates of recycling among cites its size in this part of the
> country.  The reason why is pretty simple - at current rates of landfill
> usage Anchorage will take 50 years to fill its landfill.  It would take
> Anchorage over 50,000 years to fill up with trash.  So we do not place a
> high value on not throwing things away.  It will work exactly the same
> way in the Third Imperium, they have 11,000 + planets.  Most of their
> planets have less than 1,000,000 people.  They will not value wilderness
> in the same way that many 20th century urban members of western society
> who rarely see wilderness do.

Which is economically more efficient: Mining aluminum from bauxite or
recycling an aluminum can? The answer is recycling. Same could be said
for a host of other products: paper, glass, tin.

I'm not a neo-Luddite. I enjoy the benefits of technology. Being one of
less than a million people living in this vast province known as
Saskatchewan, I'm familiar with wilderness. But I believe we are a long
way as a species, from understanding the miracle of life on this planet.

I take the opposite view that you do. Space is nearly infinite. The vast
majority of it is dead, lifeless. Asteroids, gas giants, comets. Barren,
airless, frozen, and molten worlds. On the contrary, those that find a
gem of a world, able to sustain life, will do their best to protect
it...
 
> It's all Econ 101 folks.

Maybe we should consider higher years of Economic theory... :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 18:07 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971118145610.4734B-100000@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>

Lars,

> > Alan Rickman is, arguably, the greatest villain since Vader.
>  
> I agree with that if you mean Gruber in "Die Hard".
> His Sheriff of Nottingham performance was a little poor, IMHO.

Best thing in the film, IMHO.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 97 18:07 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

In-Reply-To: <Pine.OSF.3.91.971118145610.4734B-100000@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>

Lars,

> > Alan Rickman is, arguably, the greatest villain since Vader.
>  
> I agree with that if you mean Gruber in "Die Hard".
> His Sheriff of Nottingham performance was a little poor, IMHO.

Best thing in the film, IMHO.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 12:55:46 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: IG progress

Hi,

Did IG ever release the Aslan&Vargr Alien Volume? I haven't seen any mention
of it and I was wondering if I missed the conversation or if it just hasn't
come out yet.

Thanks,
\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 09:23:11 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Naval Architect

At 07:41 PM 11/18/97 -0800, Douglas wrote:
>Well, they may not be updating their webpage, but Naval Architect just hit
the shelves...

Anyone know if it is good?

After the M0 campaign, which included the fatally flawed FS data, and the
utterly useless Emperor's Vehicles, I am a bit wary.  I want to hear
someone like Dave Golden, Dereck Wildstar,  or Guy Garnett say it is worth
buying before it hits my Xmas list.

Scott

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:32:03 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Insurance issues (a PIRACY! spinoff)

>It would appear that the risk of running into a pirate must be much smaller
>than the encounter tables imply. If the risk of running into a pirate in a
>backwater system was really anyway near 10% then the losses would be
>staggering. And if they are much, much smaller than the rules imply -- I
>think someone suggested one or two pirates at a time per sector, and unless
>I misunderstood him completely David said that he thought it would be a few
>cargoes per year for the entire Imperium -- then won't your PCs start to
>wonder when they keep beating the odds and run into yet another pirate?
>Mine would (Well, they would if I hadn't made clear that pirates are as
>non-debatable (in my own, personal, campaign, that is) as flat galaxies ;-).

Insurance for ships/cargo will only be issued to ships filing flightpaths 2
jumps ahead and not if you venture outside the Imperium or enter Amber
zones/Red zones. This is the MAIN reason the Amber zones are printed on the
starcharts. When TAS issues an Amber zone on a system its tourism & trade
takes a hard hit so the TAS inspectors (always anonymous of course but word
gets around quickly) are real powerfactors and susceptible to bribe
attempts.

Hey, this opens up some interesting plotlines...


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 10:22:29 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Messing with the UWP

At 04:58 PM 11/18/97 EST, Robert Eaglestone wrote:
>Howdy all,

>Is it useful to include X-boat route information in the
>UWP line?  Might Regina's UWP look like this:

Perhaps.  I usually include it as metadata in the file, as it is not
related to a specific world, rather, a set of worlds.

>A possibly wonderful way to encode/store/make available (previously
>ungenerated) system data via computer is:
>1) pick a random number generation algorithm
>2) assign a unique seed for each member of a set of ungenerated systems
>3) assign a system generation algorithm to these systems
>4) "expand" the stats from the seed, using the unique seed to
>   provide the random number that drives the generation algorithm

Jo Grant has used this system for some time, and it is pretty slick.  I do
not like it in general, because it makes it hard to do non deterministic
things to the data.  For example, if you boost the law level on a planet,
then it has to be noted in some reasonable way.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2111
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 19 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2112



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Environmental Law
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Alternate star mapping
re: Naval Ships and Transponders (was Piracy and fleet deployment)
Re: IG Dead -- Newsfeed at 11...
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Re: environment redux
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: IG progress
Naval Architect's Manual
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: Naval Architect
Writer's List
Naval Architect's handbook opinion
RE: Alternate star mapping
Naval Arch. Manual
Re: Naval Architect
Re: Naval Architect
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: Injury
Re: Naval Architect
FFS2 errata: rockets

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:03:33 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Environmental Law

>Consider, for example, the Vilani concept of "owning" an idea.  If you invent
>something, you own the idea.  If I improve it, I still owe you money because
>the original idea was your's.  Yes, this tends to discourage innovation. (On
>the other hand, no Microsoft-style corporations.  There are benefits to being
>Vilani!) Vilani culture is _not_ 20th century NorAm culture, and we lose a
>lot if we try to make it like that.

I you do not owe the inventor when you take his idea and then make it
worse; MS style companies might still exist among the Vilani ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:09:13 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

Glenn Hoppe said:

>I don't believe real life should be *all* about economics. I think it's
>a failing of our society that this seems to be *the* priority. What's
>the economic value of a human life?
>
>The problem with economics is that it only uses one side of the balance
>sheet: Profit and growth. It assumes resources are infinite, and
>economic growth is mandatory. It isn't able to account for non-economic
>factors necessary for life on Earth.

Economists CAN factor in everything if they like and thus be very
environmentally supportive (some do and arrive at some interesting
conclusions). The reason most tend to ignore this has its roots in who is
paying for their research and the general lack of proper scientific methods
amongst economic theorists.

Oops you lured me this far off Traveller topic - if I give myself a smack
on my head you can give yours.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:32:00 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Alternate star mapping

> From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
 
> As an aside, I suppose the 8x10 subsector format was
> due to page size;  my sense of proportion is slightly
> offended by the non-square subsector;  I would prefer
> 8x8 subsectors.  I suppose I'm 20 years too late for

10x10 would be even better, but we are 20 years too late, I suppose.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 11:36:43 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: re: Naval Ships and Transponders (was Piracy and fleet deployment)

> From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
 
> You don't need to tamper with a transponder to turn it off; for example, 
> covering its antennae with a suitably thick iron plate will probably work.
> I grant that it's reasonable to assume pirates can turn their transponders
> off...which only helps as long as the ship is not otherwise detectable; 
> if a SDB detects a ship on IR and gets no transponder return it'll definitely
> investigate

I thought it was established that civilian ships could turn their
transponders on and off at will, because they might have legitimate
reasons not to announce their entry into a new system (like fear of
pirates).  The transponder would keep a record of these events,
however.  Military ships can make their transponders say anything.  They
can broadcast their identification and the standard Imperial IFF signal,
or broadcast any identification in their computer's memory, or any other
IFF in memory.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 13:15:07 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: IG Dead -- Newsfeed at 11...

danger@visi.com writes:

>I'm just wondering if anybody knows the status of Imperium Games.  Their
>website's most recent news is from June, their 'specials' are from GenCon, and
>some of their "upcoming releases" are from late October/early November...
>
>Anybody know anything?

   Well if you check my resume which I posted on my Web site you'll see that
I graduated from...

   Oh!  About IG!  :-)

   They are still very much alive and shoving sourcebooks out the door.  As
for their Web site, it appears to be in cold sleep, awaiting revival.

   Perhaps if the administrator's e-mail address appears on their Web site,
someone (us) should ask that person what's up.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:35:22 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

>
   Hi.
   
> From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
   [responding to Peter Newman]
   
> I don't believe real life should be *all* about economics. I think it's
> a failing of our society that this seems to be *the* priority. What's
> the economic value of a human life?
   
   Real life is not all about economics, but economics is all about real
   life.
   
> The problem with economics is that it only uses one side of the balance
> sheet: Profit and growth. It assumes resources are infinite, and
> economic growth is mandatory. It isn't able to account for non-economic
> factors necessary for life on Earth.
   
   An accurate economic theory factors in more than just profit and
   growth.  In fact, it factors in profit and growth only so far as
   profit and growth influence human behavior.  Since human behavior
   depends on life on earth, all factors necessary for it will be in some
   sense economic.
   
>> paradigms of economics is that as the quantity supplied of a good
>> increases the market equilibrium price will decrease.  This applies to
>> the "good" of a clean environment just as it does to any other good.
   
> A clean environment is not a "good". That's absurd. A clean environment
> is a *necessity*. It is needed for life. You can't put a price on that.
   
   All necessities are goods.  Economic laws apply to them too.
   
> Are you seriously saying we should limit unsullied wilderness to a few
> parks in mega-cities so they are worth more to us?
   
   I don't follow you here.  Nothing in Peter's message implies that he
   believes this.  He certainly did not /say/ this.
   
> I don't believe that nature follows human-made laws of economics. The
> larger, the more diverse, the more pristine our environment is, the
> *more* it is worth to us. The more forests we have, the more robust our
> biosphere is. It can process more pollutants. It is less prone to wild
> shifts in equilibrium.
   
   The laws of economics are not exactly human-made, at least not
   directly.  They are objective descriptions of human behavior and are
   thus derivative from the laws of nature which humans, being natural,
   follow.  Let me repeat: Economics is not a /prescription/ for how humans
   /should/ behave; it is a /description/ of how humans /do/ behave.
   
> Which is economically more efficient: Mining aluminum from bauxite or
> recycling an aluminum can? The answer is recycling. Same could be said
> for a host of other products: paper, glass, tin.
   
   If recycling aluminum cans is more efficient economically (as opposed
   to thermodynamically), then how come civil laws and public subsidies
   are required to ensure that it is done?  If we in Pittsburgh were not
   required by law to put our aluminum cans into recycling bins, and if
   recycling companies were not paid by the city to recycle them, then
   there would be almost no recycling of aluminum cans here.  Actually,
   there /is/ no recycling here despite this.  The `recycling' company
   used to take our recyclables to a landfill and dump them to save the
   cost of recycling.  Then they were caught, fined, and fired.  After
   that, no local company would take the city's recycling contract, so we
   now have an out-of-state company that takes the recyclables to an
   out-of-state landfill where our police cannot arrest them.  On the
   bright side though, our police can still arrest me if I neglect to
   partake of this charade and stop separating my garbage 8^).
   
   Please note that I'm NOT saying we should not recycle; I'm just
   pointing out a counter-example to your theory that it is economically
   more efficient.
   
> I'm not a neo-Luddite. I enjoy the benefits of technology. Being one of
> less than a million people living in this vast province known as
> Saskatchewan, I'm familiar with wilderness. But I believe we are a long
> way as a species, from understanding the miracle of life on this planet.
   
   No argument here.
   
   -Rob
   

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:03:46 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> Oops you lured me this far off Traveller topic - if I give myself a smack
> on my head you can give yours.

Consider meself smacked. :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:04:35 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: environment redux

Glenn Crawford wrote:
> 
> As far as plentiful energy from fusion goes, I don't see it happening. We
> cannot even get the damn thing working because there is no money in it (lots
> of money for IC engine research though!)

Ya, but I'm discussing Environmentalism in _Traveller_, so cheap Fusion
is a given... :)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 15:04:43 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

Steven Bonneville wrote:
> 
> Vilani subsector maps might look odd, though.  Besides being
> two thousand years out of date in AD 4521, they'll be using the
> deshi (0.67 parsec) instead of the parsec on their maps.  So
> instead of 8x10 parsecs, a Vilani subsector is 12x15 deshi, and
> a sector 48x60 deshi.

Not unless the physics of jump drives has changed in the past two
thousand years!

Remember that the parsec is used just 'cuz it "happens" to correspond
with the distance travelled by Jump Drives.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:57:30 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: IG progress

>Did IG ever release the Aslan&Vargr Alien Volume? I haven't seen any=
 mention
>of it and I was wondering if I missed the conversation or if it just hasn't
>come out yet.

It was delayed, because Marc wanted to change stuff in it, to make it=
 better.

All praise Marc Miller, the Creator !

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:07:21 -0500 (EST)
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Naval Architect's Manual

Sayeth Douglas:

>Date: Tue, 18 Nov 1997 19:41:26 -0800

>From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>

>Subject: RE: IG Dead -- Newsfeed at 11...

>

>Well, they may not be updating their webpage, but Naval Architect just hit
the >shelves...


  And I find it amazing that this is the first the list has had to say about
it.  I've owned the Naval Architect's Manual for a week now...

 A quick review:

Despite the name, the "Naval Architect's Manual" is firmly a role-player's
supplement. It has somewhat less appeal to the average gearhead. Why?

  Aside from two pages at the front, NAM is a heavily illustrated guide
to what the various shipboard facilities look like. It has half-a-dozen
examples of bridge layout for various sizes of ship, blocks of staterooms
(including "Cleon's Stateroom", a huge suite of rooms rivaling the size
of some whole starships), turrets and bays, engineering spaces, common
facilities, labs, etc and so forth.  All are done on a 1m grid (based on
the size of most chairs, anyway; the book doesn't say).  Each type and
example is described in basic terms, along with some notes for use within
a game.
  Presentation is clean and readable, with illos and text always together
on a page (occasionally the order of appearance is mixed, but matched
bits are always close together). As mentioned above, some note about
scale would have been nice, but this isn't crippling in this case.

  With a near-exhaustive collection of such bits, the average referee
does not need to plan out an entire capital ship or large liner. Instead,
he can play "here is the lounge, here is your local block of staterooms,
here is the Captain's office ("Oh, ****!")".  This supplement virtually
eliminates the old referee's problem of Player Anticipation ("If there
is a map for it, it must by dangerous or important."), at least where
ship interiors are concerned. Some of the pieces happily function for
ground facilities as well, such as the local TAS hostel.

  Because I'm in a regular Traveller game, I rate the Naval Architect's
Manual as a useful and fairly well-done product. It is only sort of
what the name led me to expect, however.  Active referee's would be
well advised to pick it up, in my opinion. Lonely gearheads can
likely give it a miss unless the complete deckplans of the Planet
class Dreadnought are on their ToDo list...


GypsyComet.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:26:24 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

Glenn Hoppe wrote:

>Steven Bonneville wrote:
>>
>> Vilani subsector maps might look odd, though.  Besides being
>> two thousand years out of date in AD 4521, they'll be using the
>> deshi (0.67 parsec) instead of the parsec on their maps.  So
>> instead of 8x10 parsecs, a Vilani subsector is 12x15 deshi, and
>> a sector 48x60 deshi.
>
>Not unless the physics of jump drives has changed in the past two
>thousand years!
>
>Remember that the parsec is used just 'cuz it "happens" to correspond
>with the distance travelled by Jump Drives.

I seem to recall _Vilani and Vargr_ mentioning that Vilani astrography
_was_ based on the "deshi" (distance from Vland to Tauri), though.  Is
there some way to break sectors or subsectors into reasonably even units of
deshi?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:15:52 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Naval Architect

Scott Ellsworth writes:

>At 07:41 PM 11/18/97 -0800, Douglas wrote:
>>Well, they may not be updating their webpage, but Naval Architect just hit
>>the shelves...
>
>Anyone know if it is good?

   I saw it in a game store in Lexington, Kentucky.  It appeared to consist
entirely of deck plans for everything from a starship bridge to a starship
gallery, to well, you name it.  Not crappy virtually unuseable deck plans
like in Starships, but stuff that you can really use with grid squares.

   While I did not buy it (I'm on too tight a budget at the moment), I would
rate it as one of the better supplements produced for "T4" thus far (and
useable with TNE no less).  Certainly worthy of being on your Christmas list.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:51:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Kagehira@aol.com
Subject: Writer's List

    Let me try and clarify some things about the Writer's List that has been
set up.

    First is is for published and wanting to be published Traveller
fans/writers (now this can be for fanzines, TTC, JTAS or some sourcebook for
I.G.). Kibbitzers can join, but only if they work to stay on the list and get
permission from a writer on the list. The list is not for lurkers.

    My apologies, is this sounds dictatorial or something. It is my hope that
this will provide an area that is first of all useful to writer's and help
them in getting published and provide fun and enjoyment for the rest of us.
Secondly I'm hoping it will get the official sanction of I.G. so that the
material being published will be better playtested (I think we can all agree
this will be a good thing), in order to do that access needs to be restricted
(from what I know). At least for right now it does have what one might
consider it's unofficial sanction and attention.

    If anybody has any further questions or requests please feel free to send
them to me.


Bryan Borich

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:11:15 -0500
From: "Allen Shock" <ashock@gte.net>
Subject: Naval Architect's handbook opinion

> After the M0 campaign, which included the fatally flawed FS data, and the
> utterly useless Emperor's Vehicles, I am a bit wary.  I want to hear
> someone like Dave Golden, Dereck Wildstar,  or Guy Garnett say it is
worth
> buying before it hits my Xmas list.

Hey, if both Guy AND Derek like, it, I'm there dude :)

I took a look at this in the store (my copy has not made it's way to me
yet). Lotsa deck plans that can be copied and used in ship designs for
ships if various sizes, or as examples of how to design your own. fairly
hefty book, too, for the price. Worth getting for any version of Traveller
if you draw deck plans.

Allen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:18:43 -0700
From: Steve Deemer <stedee@auto-trol.com>
Subject: RE: Alternate star mapping

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. [SMTP:gmgoffin@pacbell.net]
> Sent:	Wednesday, November 19, 1997 12:32 PM
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Alternate star mapping
> 
> > From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
>  
> > As an aside, I suppose the 8x10 subsector format was
> > due to page size;  my sense of proportion is slightly
> > offended by the non-square subsector;  I would prefer
> > 8x8 subsectors.  I suppose I'm 20 years too late for
> 
> 10x10 would be even better, but we are 20 years too late, I suppose.  
> 
> --Glenn
> 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:36:57 -0500 (EST)
From: FKiesche@aol.com
Subject: Naval Arch. Manual

Greetings:

My local game guy says he has the Naval Arch. Manual in stock. This makes the
second pre-order item (the first being Emp. Veh, which IG still won't send
me!) that I've not received. Anybody else get this one yet (in pre order)?

Maybe IG is "dead...film at eleven". I've sent them multiple inquiries about
Emp's Vehicles and the only reply I got was a generic message from Tim Brown
about "having troubles with printers". No response to my query about when/if
I would actually get the bloody thing. I guess NAM will be MIA as well.

I just don't understand this. I want to buy things from IG. Apparently IG
will not sell them to me. Curious way to build a business.

Sigh.

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 20:20:53 -0500 (EST)
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Re: Naval Architect

>Anyone know if it is good?
>After the M0 campaign, which included the fatally flawed FS data, and the
>utterly useless Emperor's Vehicles, I am a bit wary.  I want to hear
>someone like Dave Golden, Dereck Wildstar,  or Guy Garnett say it is worth
>buying before it hits my Xmas list.
>Scott

I saw it in a local hobby store... its just a collection of deckplan
"modules."  Everything from low berth bays (human and non-human) to bridges.
 I wasn't especially impressed, but i could find some utility for it.  The
beginning talked about ship design in general and the rest is deckplan
modules and descriptions.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:12:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Naval Architect

Quoth Scott Ellsworth:
> At 07:41 PM 11/18/97 -0800, Douglas wrote:
> >Well, they may not be updating their webpage, but Naval Architect just hit
> the shelves...
> 
> Anyone know if it is good?

Did someone say "unified vision of future technology"?  Ha ha ha!

p. 109, re: "Live Trophy Display" -- "The [cage] walls are actually energy
partitions to keep the animals inside while protecting the viewers....
some injuries do occur when an animal attempts to race to a distant
savanna [sic] only to bounce off a gently yielding energy wall."  Would
that be TL-Star Trek?

Then there's p. 22, where the Meson Screen Workstation really seems (from
the text) to control Meson Guns.  A minor nit, perhaps, if it weren't for...

p. 19's Spinal Mount Weapon Workstation presumably refers to controls for
the massive weapons that form part of the structural members for great
lumbering warships.  But we get "the operator is strapped and clamped into
the chair, and the workstation turns and banks along with the weapon.  For
this reason, this position has the reputation of being the 'wildest ride'
in the ship.  Care should be taken so that the operator and chair have
maximum clearance on all sides."  Perhaps this will have an influence on
the trav-tech list's discussion of warship slew speeds?

Many deckplans sections don't match the accompanying text, though they're
fairly minor disagreements.  And, as has been pointed out on trav-tech
already, the scale for the map grids does not appear anywhere in the book. 

This one's another stinker, I'm afraid.  It's the first IG product (even
after Starships) that I'd strongly consider returning, if it wouldn't
put out the owner at my FLGS to do so.

And Doug Stewart (Design), Tony Lee (Editing), and even Timothy Brown
(Production Manager) ought to end up _in_front_of_ that rapidly-slewing
spinal mount.  Are TML folks the only ones who write decent supplements?

(Kudos to Joe Walsh's wife Carole -- some of the deck plans are rather
nicely executed.  I just wish the accompanying text lived up to 'em.)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 17:42:47 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

In mail you write:

> Vilani subsector maps might look odd, though.  Besides being
> two thousand years out of date in AD 4521, they'll be using the
> deshi (0.67 parsec) instead of the parsec on their maps.  So
> instead of 8x10 parsecs, a Vilani subsector is 12x15 deshi, and
> a sector 48x60 deshi.

No, the Traveller parsec is only co-incidentally similar to the Teraan
parsec. Remember, a "parsec" is the max distance a J-1 drive can take
you... 

I may sit down some dayu and try to come up with a handwave for jumps
being that size. Preferably one that relates it to some natural
constants, so we can specify the length of a jump to some ridiculous
degree of accuracy. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:17:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Injury

In mail you write:

> Let's discuss the ways people can get hurt (as opposed to just saying "you
> take 3D hits).

> TYPES OF INJURY
> Type    Rationale       Gross Effect    Typical Protection      Typical Source
> Emp     EM Pulse        Fries chips     Shielding               Nuke

EMP induces strong currents in any "long" conductors. The voltage is
proportional to the length of the conductor, and the strength of the
pulse. So effects can include things like zapping anybody who happens
to be in contact with a conductor (like a fence) will get electrical
damage. With a strong pulse, I'd hate to have any metal pins or plates
in my body.

> Gas     Respiration     Hits per turn   Flee/Respirator/Vac Suit
>                                                                 Environ/Industry/Gas Weapon

There are also gases with other effects. Want a list?

> Mag     Magnetic        Hits/Stun                               Environ/Industry/Magnetic Weapon

Actually, magnetic fields don't seem to affect us much. Otherwise MRI
gear would be unusable, and folks working near big accelerators, fusion
reactors, and other places using *intense* magnetic fields would have
to take precautions. (Note that the field in an MRI unit is strong
enough that if you "forget" and wear an earring or the like, you can get
burned by the induced currents, or injured when it rips free). 

> Son     HF Sound        Stun            Helmet                  Environ

Low frequency sound can do nasties to you also. And it *can't* be
shielded. Which is why it hasn't been used as a weapon. So far nobody
has figured out how to use it without nailing themselves as well as the
enemy.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 18:23:15 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Naval Architect

>At 07:41 PM 11/18/97 -0800, Douglas wrote:
>>Well, they may not be updating their webpage, but Naval Architect just hit
>the shelves...
>
>Anyone know if it is good?
>
>After the M0 campaign, which included the fatally flawed FS data, and the
>utterly useless Emperor's Vehicles, I am a bit wary.  I want to hear
>someone like Dave Golden, Dereck Wildstar,  or Guy Garnett say it is worth
>buying before it hits my Xmas list.

Well, I'm no one like them, however I got it last Saturday at my FLGS, and
would say it's the best product so far!  However, I should say that I'm a
sucker for starship plans.  I did notice a typo in about the first
paragraph though.

One thing that is really pissing me off is the reuse of artwork!  I mean
how many times do we have to see the same thing over and over?  There are a
few new interior drawings that I feel are pretty decent, but considering
the rest of the artwork that T4 has had that's not saying much.

I'll put it this way, I've got every T4 book (a fool and his money are soon
parted) except the "Mileo 0 Campiagn" Hardback (I'm not that foolish).  If
I could only keep one of them, this would be it.  I've already recommended
it to a friend that is avoiding T4, because I'm sure he'll really like it.

			Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                       |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them.    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html            |

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 19:12:17 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: FFS2 errata: rockets

Here's some reasonably official errata, including corrected fuel consumptions
for the various low-tech rockets, and a new drive type (AND) designed to 
make missiles practical again.

Table 166:

TL	Type	Thrust	Price	Fuel    Ftype
		kn/m3	MCr/m3	m3/hr/kN
5	Liq	300	2.00	1.28	LRF
6	Hyp Liq	850	1.83	1.22	Hyp
6	Liq	500	1.50	1.16	LRF
6	HDLiq	650	1.50	0.86	Perox
7	Hyp Liq	930	1.20	1.22	Hyp
7	Liq	850	0.67	1.19	LRF
7	HDLiq	1080	0.53	0.86	Perox
7	LH Liq	650	2.00	2.54	HRF
8	Hyp Liq	1320	1.00	1.14	Hyp
8	Liq	770	0.83	1.06	LRF
8	HDLiq	1250	1.00	0.80	Perox
8	LH Liq	730	2.67	2.40	HRF


Table 167
7	NTR	80	8.00	5.94	LHyd
8	NTR	100	10.00	5.90	LHyd
8	AdvNTR	120	12.00	4.17	LHyd
9	GCNTR	50	16.67	2.52	LHyd
9  Exp. Fusion	30	3.50	0.0072	LHyd
10	Fusion	90	0.35	0.0049	LHyd
10	AND	1100	0.80	0.04	D/T water

AND is the Advanced Nuclear Drive, a low-efficiency/high-performance
lightweight fusion rocket, using tritium-enriched heavy water, for
use in missiles. The exhaust (and the whole engine after more than a
few seconds of firing) is moderately radioactive; it can only be used
in expendable vehicles. Missiles using this drive are "kicked" a 
few tens of meters away from the launching ship by the launcher or
by a explosive charge in the launch cannister.

Table 171:AZH rocket mode should have a fuel consumption of 2.4m3/kN/hr
(an increase of x112 from the turbojet mode per m3 of engine.)

Table 173:
D/T water	1.167 tonne/m3	Cr 20,000/m3
Table 173: HRF has a density of 0.33 t/m3

Page 49: the delta-V formula should be
	delta-V=ln((Mtot/(Mtot-Mfuel)) * 3600/(FC*FD)
	delta-V in G-hours is equal to delta-V in m/s divided by 36000

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2112
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 20 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2113



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

CSC for PC's?
Re: Alternate star mapping
RE: Compiled Sector Data Available
Insurance & Mega-corps
Re: Insurance issues
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: Naval Architect
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: High Guard
Re: Naval Architect
re: Injury
Re: Injury
Re: IG progress
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: Naval Architect's Manual
energy walls
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2112
Re: Naval Arch. Manual
Digest Frequency?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:38:05 -0500
From: "Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net>
Subject: CSC for PC's?

I understand that CSC now exists for PC compatibles, where can I find it?

Thanks,

Eric Freitas

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:41:22 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

>No, the Traveller parsec is only co-incidentally similar to the Teraan
>parsec. Remember, a "parsec" is the max distance a J-1 drive can take
>you... 
>
>I may sit down some dayu and try to come up with a handwave for jumps
>being that size. Preferably one that relates it to some natural
>constants, so we can specify the length of a jump to some ridiculous
>degree of accuracy. :-)
>
>-- 
Hey! Ithought that in many places the rules state the size of a Parsec
according to standard definitions. Was this not intended to be the case?

                Colin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 22:24:54 -0800
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: RE: Compiled Sector Data Available

I'm looking at my copy of Vargr and Vilani, with the Gvurrdon Sector data 
in it, and I have to wonder - has anyone put this into electronic copy 
already?  Is it available?  I'd like to add it, if it is (or I have a 
project to fill a few days if it is not...)

douglas

- ----------
From: 	CardSharks@aol.com[SMTP:CardSharks@aol.com]
Sent: 	Wednesday, November 19, 1997 7:20 AM
To: 	traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: 	Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

In a message dated 97-11-18 05:59:30 EST, you write:

<<
    I'm a little late to this dance, but with all the sector data being
 complied, has there been given any thought to the next step, which is to
 make sure that the data is revised to fit whatever new star system
 generation sequence will be developed (or already developed but not
 published) for "T4"?  IMHO, now would be a perfect time to step back and 
do
 such an edit.  I would be more than happy to humbly volunteer my services
 for that project, as I'm sure many other people would as well.

 Regards,

 Harold


  >>
I think the first step is to make a full file with all the know data for 
1105
in it. Then, to distill the file into what is known and doesn't change
between eras (world size, etc). The to look at what the file format should
be. And finally discuss changes to the data itself.

Thanks for volunteering.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:26:56 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Insurance & Mega-corps

Hello,
  It may be useful to keep in mind that most large organizations
will be effectively self-insuring. If the Imperium is not to have
large private police fleets for each mega-corp, then it implies
either that the Imperium (or sub-sector gov'ts) has been pressured
into providing adequate piracy suppression, or said organization
has chosen to do so itself.

  FWIW, it seems evident that if the Imperium wouldn't provide
adequate protection (when reasonably possible) then its political
legitimacy would be seriously weakened, to the joy of particularists
everywhere. Perhaps Dulinor was traumatized by pirates as a child? :)

        Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 23:26:33 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Insurance issues

>Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 14:57:06 +0100 (MET)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Insurance issues (a PIRACY! spinoff)
....
>the pirate is 10%. Finally, let's assume that most pirates are loopy enough
>to only capture cargoes and that the chance of losing the ship is only 10% of
>the chance of losing the cargo. Insurance payments would then come to an
>addtional Cr360/T for cargo carried to the dangerous system.

  Shouldn't that be Cr 50/Dt? BTW, I still favour ship-stealing, OC.

....
>less; he may get more than 10% for the ship, but OTOH, the ship may not be
....
>to 10 million MCr -- less than 2 million when fenced. And that is if all five
>victims are 600 T freighters. /...

  Assuming operation near a border, and strong contacts with organized
crime for resale of goods, I feel that you can double those percentages
for roughing out pirate economics. After all, tyro's will die off fast.

>It would appear that the risk of running into a pirate must be much smaller
>than the encounter tables imply. /

  Seems likely.
....
>think someone suggested one or two pirates at a time per sector, and unless
>I misunderstood him completely David said that he thought it would be a few
>cargoes per year for the entire Imperium -

  IIRC, he said 1-2 cargoes per year per typical backwater system - quite
possible depending on how piracy is defined ("a bright blue light, officer,
then all the systems went dead - when we woke up, the cargo was gone! Really").

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:20:54 -0600
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

> From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping
> Date: Wednesday, November 19, 1997 7:42 PM
> 
> In mail you write:
> 
> > Vilani subsector maps might look odd, though.  Besides being
> > two thousand years out of date in AD 4521, they'll be using the
> > deshi (0.67 parsec) instead of the parsec on their maps.  So
> > instead of 8x10 parsecs, a Vilani subsector is 12x15 deshi, and
> > a sector 48x60 deshi.
> 
> No, the Traveller parsec is only co-incidentally similar to the Teraan
> parsec. Remember, a "parsec" is the max distance a J-1 drive can take
> you... 
> 
> I may sit down some dayu and try to come up with a handwave for jumps
> being that size. Preferably one that relates it to some natural
> constants, so we can specify the length of a jump to some ridiculous
> degree of accuracy. :-)

I dunno.  I've always seen a J1 drive as a drive that could fling you up
to about 1pc distance (maybe a little more), and nothing else.  A Terran
J1 drive might be rated, by a Vilani as a '1.5-deshi' jump drive (and a
Jump-2 drive would be a '3-deshi' drive) I've never believed that a ship
*has* to have a jump drive rated in 'whole-parsec' units, nor have I ever
agreed with the 'six levels of jumpspace' being more than a layman's
approximation of jumpspace.

So, the 'parsec' notation is a Solomani rating system to determine the
approximate maximum distance a jump drive can take you (you don't think
those stars are really 'whole-number-of-parsecs' distance, do you?). 
During the First Imperium, the Vilani engineers probably build drives that
would be rated at fractional parsec jumps (say, a jump1.5 ship).  They
could have used a system like this (if using FFS2):


Equation 2: Jump Drive Volume
Vol(JDrive) = (0.01 + (0.0067*Jn)) * Vol(ship)
	where Jn = jump rating in deshi


Equation 3: Jump Grid Area
GridArea = TotalArea * (0.1 + (Jn * 0.0034))
	where Jn = jump rating in deshi

Equation 4: Jump Fuel
JumpFuel = 0.067 * Jn * Vol(Ship)
	where Jn = jump rating in deshi


Table 4: Jump Drive Table

TL	MaxJump	Mass
	(deshi)	(t/m3)
- --	-------	------
9	1.5		3
10*	2		3
11	3		3

*note how this fills a hole in the jump drive progression table at TL10. 
Assuming the TL charts were developed by Vilani, this explains the 'hole'.
 There is an improvement in Jump drives at TL10, but a '2-deshi' drive is
only a 1,5-pc drive, and could not be rated as a jump2 by the Solomani.

- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:07:49 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Naval Architect

>Anyone know if it is good?
>
>After the M0 campaign, which included the fatally flawed FS data, and the
>utterly useless Emperor's Vehicles, I am a bit wary.  I want to hear
>someone like Dave Golden, Dereck Wildstar,  or Guy Garnett say it is worth
>buying before it hits my Xmas list.
>
>Scott

OK namedropping here:
I want the guy (his name eludes me, http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/)
that made up the fab Subsidized merchant for Marathon. He also made some
deckplans over the new style Far Trader with the same quality as late DGP
ie perfect. If he thinks NA has good deckplans I'll buy, otherwise I pass.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:11:16 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

>No, the Traveller parsec is only co-incidentally similar to the Teraan
>parsec. Remember, a "parsec" is the max distance a J-1 drive can take
>you...
>
>I may sit down some dayu and try to come up with a handwave for jumps
>being that size. Preferably one that relates it to some natural
>constants, so we can specify the length of a jump to some ridiculous
>degree of accuracy. :-)

Do, touches like that are very good to use as a ref.
The old Scout talking to the young scientist at the TAS bar:

"Isn't it peculiar that Jumpdrives jump almost exactly the same length as
the distance between Terra and its sun times the number of arcseconds in a
complete revolution?"

"Actually a J1 unit jumps handwave bullshit bla bla bla but for historical
reasons Solomani always called them parescs and the name has stuck
everywhere but in the restored Vilani empire. Calling parsecs there is
considered an insult"


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:32:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> I seem to recall _Vilani and Vargr_ mentioning that Vilani astrography
> _was_ based on the "deshi" (distance from Vland to Tauri), though.  Is
> there some way to break sectors or subsectors into reasonably even units =
of
> deshi?
>=20
I don=B4t know. Seems we have to take this as =B4coincidence=B4 of the desh=
i=20
being two third of a parsec. (or 3 deshi =3D 2 parsec). Remember the=20
lightyear, wich in my view still dominates our sight of space, being=20
3.26uh... parsecs. And there also is the Astronomical Unit AU ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:53:30 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: High Guard

 Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>


>Dom Mooney writes:
>>Isn't Armour limited to something like TL+3? TCS had soemthing about it.
>>(Just off the top of my head looking at the TL12 Armour 17 SDB)
>
>Now that you mention it, I believe you're right. I forgot. I guess I'll
>have to change that to factor 15. You can still get it with a TL 15
>version. BTW. I forgot one dodge that I had planned for the SDBs: To use
>the left-over cargo space for carrying a squadron of fighters.

Sorry that I was playing the pedant then. Anyway, Factor 12 armour in High
Guard is a complete pain for a non-military ship to broach... Minimum roll
= 20 without pulse lasers or nukes assuming USP<9, so just only a 2 or a 3
(2.3%) of hits will damage anything (albeit it a weapon hit if it does get
through). The HG design system certainly makes the small SDB hard to crack.

Dom

    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:47:12 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Naval Architect

On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Joseph Chepe Lockett wrote:

> Quoth Scott Ellsworth:
> > At 07:41 PM 11/18/97 -0800, Douglas wrote:
> > >Well, they may not be updating their webpage, but Naval Architect just=
 hit
> > the shelves...
> >=20
> > Anyone know if it is good?
>=20
> Did someone say "unified vision of future technology"?  Ha ha ha!
>=20
> p. 109, re: "Live Trophy Display" -- "The [cage] walls are actually energ=
y
> partitions to keep the animals inside while protecting the viewers....
> some injuries do occur when an animal attempts to race to a distant
> savanna [sic] only to bounce off a gently yielding energy wall."  Would
> that be TL-Star Trek?
>=20

Not necessarily. Animals are easier to trick than humans. Some of them=20
don=B4t have three-dimensional sight, so the right wallpaper would do ...
the energy/forcefield-physics of ST always was always a bit rubberlike to me.
But you=B4re right, this one seems to be a kind of cover-version!

> Then there's p. 22, where the Meson Screen Workstation really seems (from
> the text) to control Meson Guns.  A minor nit, perhaps, if it weren't for=
....
>=20
> p. 19's Spinal Mount Weapon Workstation presumably refers to controls for
> the massive weapons that form part of the structural members for great
> lumbering warships.  But we get "the operator is strapped and clamped int=
o
> the chair, and the workstation turns and banks along with the weapon.  Fo=
r
> this reason, this position has the reputation of being the 'wildest ride'
> in the ship.  Care should be taken so that the operator and chair have
> maximum clearance on all sides."  Perhaps this will have an influence on
> the trav-tech list's discussion of warship slew speeds?
>

Funny, really. Would had happened to me, too, if I had not learned by=20
now what=B4s the difference between a _spinal_ weapon and a _turret_ weapon.

But this one (_turret_ weapon chair) seems to be borrowed, too.

[snipsnap]

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:04:04 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Injury

Marc wrote:

>Let's discuss the ways people can get hurt (as opposed to just saying "yo=
>u
>take 3D hits).

>TYPES OF INJURY
>Type	Rationale	Gross Effect	Typical Protection	Typical Source
>Bang	Impact Sound	Deafen	Helmet. Plugs.	Explosion. Gunfire. Flash-Bang.
>Blast	Overpressure	Hits	Armor.	Explosion.

This is also a nuclear effect.... (a blast wave travels behind the emp and
flash in an atmosphere - See Terminator 2 for an interesting demo of a
nucler blast).

>Blow	Blunt Trauma	Hits	Armor.	Fist. Club. Fall. Collision.
>Burn	Heat	Hits	Armor. 	Environ. Fire. Nuke..
>Cold	Lack of Heat	Hits.	CW Clothes.	Environ.
>Cut	Blade	Hits	Armor.	Blade.
>Emp	EM Pulse	Fries chips	Shielding.	Nuke.
>Flash	Light	Blind	Helmet.	Environ. Star. Nuke. Flash-Bang.
>Frag	Shrapnel. Debris	Hits.	Armor.	Explosion.
>Gas	Respiration	Hits per turn. Flee.	Respirator. Vac Suit.
>	Environ. Indus=
>try.
>Gas Weapon..=20
>HFE	Microwave	Hits	Shielding. Armor.	Environ. Industry.=20
>Mag	Magnetic	Hits. Stun..		Environ. Industry. Magnetic
>Weapon.
>Pain	Direct Nerve Stim	Stun. Panic.	Armor.	Environ.
>Poison	Ingestion	Hits	Caution.	Environ.=20
>Psi	Mental Effort	Hits. Pain. Stun.		Psionic Individual.
>Psionic Weapon.
>Rad	Radiation	Hits	Armor.	Environ. Nuke. Neutron Bomb. Xray
>Laser.
>Shock	Electricity	Hits	Armor.	Environ. Charge Weapon.=20
>Son	HF Sound	Stun.	Helmet.	Environ.
>Tranq1	Drug	Paralyze	Armor.	Dart Weapon.
>Tranq2	Drug	Knockout	Armor.	Dart Weapon.
>Tranq3	Drug	Hits	Armor.	Dart Weapon.
>Twist	Gravitic	Hits		Grav Weapons.
>Vac	Decompression	Hits per turn	Vac Suit. Patches.	Environ.

Would Vac also cause blindness?

>Effects:
>	Hits-nD. Roll n (where n is a number) dice. Impose each individual
>die t=
>o
>reduce the target=92s Physical Characteristics (Strength, Dexterity, or
>Endurance) in any order. When one characteristic is reduced to zero, the
>character is unconsicous. When=20
>	Blind-nD. Roll n (where n is a number) dice for the number of
>combat rou=
>nds
>the target is blinded. Character cannot see.
>	Deafen-nD. Roll n (where n is a number) dice for the number of
>combat ro=
>unds
>the target is deafened. Character cannot hear.
>	Stun-nD. Roll n (where n is a number) dice for the number of combat
>roun=
>ds
>the target is stunned. Character cannot attack (or do any offensive
>activity). Personal defense remains possible.
>	Knockout. The target is rendered unconscious. Character must roll
>End or
>less to regain consciousness.
>	Paralyze. Character cannot move or do anything. Character must roll
>End =
>or
>less to regain ability to act.
>	Fry. Electronic components are destroyed. They cannot be repaired;
>they =
>must
>be replaced.
>	Dead. Target is dead.

Looks interesting - I hope that you don't change that T4 combat system too
much (especially with the EA bits linked in) as it was one of the parts of
the system that really stood out for me (fast and deadly). Also, I could
use autofire very quickly and understood it the first time that I read it
(unlike MT and TNE)!

Dom

    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:09:17 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Injury

On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> EMP induces strong currents in any "long" conductors. The voltage is
> proportional to the length of the conductor, and the strength of the
> pulse. So effects can include things like zapping anybody who happens
> to be in contact with a conductor (like a fence) will get electrical
> damage. With a strong pulse, I'd hate to have any metal pins or plates
> in my body.
>=20
Think of protheses, and others. Seen =B4Goldeneye=B4?
But what about Faraday Cages to prevent these effects? I know, the USAF=20
was amused when they got a MIG for research and found radio tubes in it.
That amusement faded, when they learned about EMPs. In a second effect=20
the EMP ionizes the air and that is which makes your Computer go short=20
circuit.

> > Gas     Respiration     Hits per turn   Flee/Respirator/Vac Suit
> >                                                                 Environ=
/Industry/Gas Weapon
>=20
> There are also gases with other effects. Want a list?
>=20
Have one: A lecture in Chemistry about chemical warfare agents (how to=20
prevent accidents at work.) I know what you mean.

> > Mag     Magnetic        Hits/Stun                               Environ=
/Industry/Magnetic Weapon
>=20
> Actually, magnetic fields don't seem to affect us much. Otherwise MRI
> gear would be unusable, and folks working near big accelerators, fusion
> reactors, and other places using *intense* magnetic fields would have
> to take precautions. (Note that the field in an MRI unit is strong
> enough that if you "forget" and wear an earring or the like, you can get
> burned by the induced currents, or injured when it rips free).=20
>=20
Not to forget the EMP effect. This is the same, but over a longer timspan.

> > Son     HF Sound        Stun            Helmet                  Environ
>=20
> Low frequency sound can do nasties to you also. And it *can't* be
> shielded. Which is why it hasn't been used as a weapon. So far nobody
> has figured out how to use it without nailing themselves as well as the
> enemy.
>=20
In fact, there are two possibilities to protect you from sonic.
The first one is: vaccum (Interesting: could this be used for a thermo=20
can like helmet?) The second could be to kill the waves with an inverse=20
sound that interferes with the weapon=B4s. Slightly complicated, but=20
theoretically possible.
Low Frequencies surely can leave severe tissue damage, if the right=20
frequency is chosen. That can tear things apart, too.

What brings me to another question:
How do the Hazer, Flasher, Tasers and Shock Batons as nonlethal weapons=20
underly the law levels of the worlds?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 05:15:34 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: IG progress

In a message dated 97-11-19 16:12:00 EST, you write:

<< Did IG ever release the Aslan&Vargr Alien Volume? >>

It hasn't come out yet. I've been working with them on the Asland and Vargr
part, and I had a conversation  just today about the Graytch.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:31:46 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

>I dunno.  I've always seen a J1 drive as a drive that could fling you up
>to about 1pc distance (maybe a little more), and nothing else.  A Terran
>J1 drive might be rated, by a Vilani as a '1.5-deshi' jump drive (and a
>Jump-2 drive would be a '3-deshi' drive) I've never believed that a ship
>*has* to have a jump drive rated in 'whole-parsec' units, nor have I ever
>agreed with the 'six levels of jumpspace' being more than a layman's
>approximation of jumpspace.

I will hereby propose that "Deshi" is the actual (soon to be canon) Vilani
word for their jumplength uunit. Could somebody more versed in Vilani check
if "Deshi" agrees with the current language proposals at TRAV_LANG.

Good stuff.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:35:12 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

>I don=B4t know. Seems we have to take this as =B4coincidence=B4 of the desh=
i
>being two third of a parsec. (or 3 deshi =3D 2 parsec). Remember the
>lightyear, wich in my view still dominates our sight of space, being
>3.26uh... parsecs. And there also is the Astronomical Unit AU ...
>
>L.A.

Lightyears is for laymen. Parsec is the distance a star has to be from us
to have a one arcsecond paralax and is thus tightly coupled to the AU unit.
1 Parsec =3D 1 AU * 360 * 60 * 60 (1 AU times the number of arcseconds in a
revolution)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:46:40 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

> Lightyears is for laymen. Parsec is the distance a star has to be from us
> to have a one arcsecond paralax and is thus tightly coupled to the AU unit.
> 1 Parsec = 1 AU * 360 * 60 * 60 (1 AU times the number of arcseconds in a
> revolution)
> 
Both are arbitrary units. The AU as the distance Earth-Sun will not be 
found often in other places. The Lightyear (its name shows) is also 
connected to the solar system because of the earth year.

I remember the diverse calendars used by the different races. (shudder)
It would be nevertheless interesting how the physical units for length, 
time, mass, charge, etc. could be derived at the races.

Always found in Physics Books: How can the Units be reproduced if they 
all had been lost?

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:25:21 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Naval Architect's Manual

GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:

> Despite the name, the "Naval Architect's Manual" is firmly a role-player's
> supplement. It has somewhat less appeal to the average gearhead. Why?
>=20
>   Aside from two pages at the front, NAM is a heavily illustrated guide
> to what the various shipboard facilities look like. It has half-a-dozen
> examples of bridge layout for various sizes of ship, blocks of staterooms
> (including "Cleon's Stateroom", a huge suite of rooms rivaling the size
> of some whole starships), turrets and bays, engineering spaces, common
> facilities, labs, etc and so forth.  All are done on a 1m grid (based on
> the size of most chairs, anyway; the book doesn't say).  Each type and
> example is described in basic terms, along with some notes for use within
> a game.

So it=B4 s kind of like the SoM of DGP fame?
If so, i must have it!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 08:54:27 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: energy walls

>savanna [sic] only to bounce off a gently yielding energy wall."  Would
that be TL-Star Trek?

No, not at all. The gently yielding energy wall is a "potential energy"
wall. (IOW, it is a plexiglass wall)
Seriously though, how about sonics? Okay, okay, all your animals are
suffering from massive brain damage (and loose bowels) from being subjected
to massive subsonic decibels and you have to wear protective armour and ear
plugs to view the animals, but isn't that much better than really tough high
tech transparent plastic?

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1997 12:45:52 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2112

traveller@MPGN.COM,Internet writes:
   They [IG] are still very much alive and shoving sourcebooks out the door. As
for their Web site, it appears to be in cold sleep, awaiting revival.

   Perhaps if the administrator's e-mail address appears on their Web site,
someone (us) should ask that person what's up.

- -----

That may not work very well.  When I asked this individual to please make the
pages readable to my browser (he was using tags that my browser doesn't
support), he told me that the pages were hand-coded fo rthe highest quality,
and tht I should buy a new computer so I could see them properly.  Not
exactly a customer-support type-of-guy.

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1997 12:56:52 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Naval Arch. Manual

FKiesche@aol.com writes:
My local game guy says he has the Naval Arch. Manual in stock. This makes the
second pre-order item (the first being Emp. Veh, which IG still won't send
me!) that I've not received. Anybody else get this one yet (in pre order)?

- -----

My local store doesn't have it, and my preorder copy hasn't arrived yet
either (although I _have_ been charged for it).

Seeing as how IG didn't ship my preorder Emperor's Vehicles until after I
wrote to inquire about it, I don't suppose they shipped my NAM either.  (I
don't _know_ this, because no one at IG has responded to my letters.)  As we
now have a postal strike up here, they can use that as an excuse for a while,
although if they had shipped it on time it would be here by now. (When Andy
Lilly ships stuff from England, it arrives the same week!)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:50:20 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Digest Frequency?

Ah, what's the frequency Kenneth?

Have a bunch of people been booted from the list recently?
Digest frequency dropped from 4-6 per day to 1 a day over
the last couple of days. 

TML is my #1 distraction while at work and I demand more of it!
- --
Ethan Henry                       ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2113
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 20 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2114



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Injury
Re: Injury
Re: Alternate star mapping
Most boring worlds?
Re: Alternate star mapping
Don't Make me Panic Like That!
re: Naval Ships and Transponders
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2112
Re: Naval Architect's Manual
Re: Naval Architect
[TTL] THUDDD 7 Comments (fwd)
re: CSC for PC's?
JTAS Articles
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Setting up the Archives

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:24:39 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Injury

In a message dated 97-11-20 07:17:41 EST, you write:

<< Looks interesting - I hope that you don't change that T4 combat system too
 much (especially with the EA bits linked in) as it was one of the parts of
 the system that really stood out for me (fast and deadly). Also, I could
 use autofire very quickly and understood it the first time that I read it
 (unlike MT and TNE)!
>>

The problem is that th rules don't currently address what happens if you get
hit by a truck, or caught in an explosion, or (etc). Hits along just doesn't
give enough information.

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 10:24:44 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Injury

In a message dated 97-11-20 06:39:33 EST, you write:

<< > Mag     Magnetic        Hits/Stun
                              Environ/Industry/Magnetic Weapon
 
 Actually, magnetic fields don't seem to affect us much. Otherwise MRI
 gear would be unusable, and folks working near big accelerators, fusion
 reactors, and other places using *intense* magnetic fields would have
 to take precautions. (Note that the field in an MRI unit is strong
 enough that if you "forget" and wear an earring or the like, you can get
 burned by the induced currents, or injured when it rips free). 
  >>

You caught that aspect of the effect. Actually, I put it in in order to
address effects on non-humans who might be subject to magnetic efects.

Marc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:36:46 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

>I don=B4t know. Seems we have to take this as =B4coincidence=B4 of the=
 deshi=20
>being two third of a parsec. (or 3 deshi =3D 2 parsec). Remember the=20
>lightyear, wich in my view still dominates our sight of space, being=20
>3.26uh... parsecs. And there also is the Astronomical Unit AU ...

A parsec is about 3,26 lightyears, not the other way round.

The AU is defined as the average distance between the Earth and the Sun.

Another observation: Isn't it strange that the Vilani uses hours, seconds
and other time measuring units ? What about the metric system ?

To make my point clear: The only true reason that Traveller uses these
normal Solomani units is for simplicity. If it were to be more realistic at
this, it would be pretty hard to understand many things, like exactly how do
the Vilani measure weight and length.

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:35:16 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Most boring worlds?

Apropos of absolutely nothing I was wading though some of that sector data
a while back and found the following:


boring belts:

vla  835  Lashe  .            E000000-0
vla  707  Miuuran.       E000000-0

and for worlds:

vla  1311 Kema           E100000-0
vla  203  Bannon'S World E100000-0


As I reckon Kema is a marginally more 'boring' name than Bannon's World, I
hereby nominate, Kema (Vland)
as the most boring Traveller world ever catalogued.



These would have qualified until it occured to me that of course explaining
all those TLs with no population probably makes them anything but boring!

del  1305 Laanugagaas.        E100000-5
del  2014 Luuruumadu.         E100000-5
zar  719  Shake As .          E100000-5
mas  934  Shaaig Ig.          E100000-6
lis  1923 Irkaamguus.         E100000-6
zar  2001 Gem.           E100000-6
cor  140  Aadkhien.      E100000-7
del  1401 Kiilargishishi.          E100000-7
del  1119 Amka.               E100000-7
mas  2719 Gidebi.             E100000-7
mas  1122 Suulu.              E100000-7
mas  234  Araamirk.      E100000-8
zar  2214 Ziina.              E100000-8



Well, I bet *that* cheered up your day.

Have fun one and all

tc
"Of course, it will be just my luck to find that someone's just written up
a scintillating
library data entry for the world that knocks spots of anything we've ever
seen before!"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 07:46:06 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

Anders Backman wrote:

>I will hereby propose that "Deshi" is the actual (soon to be canon) Vilani
>word for their jumplength uunit. Could somebody more versed in Vilani check
>if "Deshi" agrees with the current language proposals at TRAV_LANG.

"Deshi" hasn't come in for discussion yet on the TravLang list (so far as I
can remember).  What do you have in mind by saying it's the Vilani word for
their "jumplength unit"?  The only published mention of "deshi" (in V&V) is
to define it as 1.6-whatever light years, the distance between Vland and
Tauri (the nearest star).

Hm... and long is a Vilani light-year compared to a Terran light-year, come
to think of it?  I'd better go check the Vland system data in V&V...

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 19 Nov 1997 16:16:01 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Don't Make me Panic Like That!

IG' website etc isn't doing much, true. But as of last week they were still
commissioning work for Missions of State and other such products... I think
IG is alive and well.

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:20:46 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: re: Naval Ships and Transponders

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> >If the ships have transponders, how does then scouts undertake spy
> >missions into enemy territory? They can't. So if they have transponders
> >they need one with an on/off switch. This to means that it is
> >possible for the IN to make transponders that can be turned off. And if
> >tamperproof transponders.
> 
> You don't need to tamper with a transponder to turn it off; for example, 
> covering its antennae with a suitably thick iron plate will probably work.

Just came to me. Why not put an off/on switch on the cable sending the
signal from the transponder to the antennea. If it has some way of
checking that it sends something, that can't be to hard to fool.

> I grant that it's reasonable to assume pirates can turn their transponders
> off...which only helps as long as the ship is not otherwise detectable; 
> if a SDB detects a ship on IR and gets no transponder return it'll definitely
> investigate

Why do they have to be otherwise indetecable. I agree with your statement
if we are talking about the core systems of the Imperium. The further out
you get the more likely it is that you wouldn't want to send your
transpondercode to anybody but the local athouraties. A transponder that
sends at all times is just plain stupid when your near the fringes of the
Imperium.

> >And as we all know a codesystem is not perfect.
> Interesting subquestion: are there still effectively-unbreakable public key
> ciphers in the 3I, or have they figured out a better way to factor numbers?

It doesn't really matter that they are unbreakable, just that they don't
fall into the wrong hands. The reason I made my first post was that I
envisioned something like the episode in one of the Star Wars movies were
the heroes has stolen a Empireship and uses a code to get past a Cruiser,
I think they were heading for Endor. There will be hundreds if not
thousand of ships going around in the Imperium that have secret missions,
delicate diplomatic info, valuable noble cargo and so on, that in the name
of noble so or so, only has to use a code, that is transmitted in thight
beam towards the local SDB or whatever that controls the system, to avoid
being harrassed. Any pirate with such a code could run several sectors
from his latest prey before being subject to inspection. 

> 
> Bruce
> 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:31:14 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

>Economics is not a /prescription/ for how humans
>   /should/ behave; it is a /description/ of how humans /do/ behave.

Economics doesn't reflect absolute truths; it makes subjective decisions
based on relatively arbitrary criteria, including extremely arbitrary 
accounting conventions. (To take a non-environmentalist example, one of the
reasons that CEO's get huge stock options is that accounting convention
currently doesn't count those stock options against a company's profit/loss
 - there was a great outcry when the american acounting standards organization
(whose name escapes me) proposed changing this.) 

In the environmental category, mainstream economic decision-making has 
problems with global-type problems like ozone depletion, where small c
contributions from everyone add up to a global problem. Similarly it has
no good mechanism for long-term decisions. Recycling aluminum is not 
currently cost-effective compared to digging up new aluminum; but if you
never recycle aluminum and your population keeps growing sooner or later you
run out and end up digging up the old aluminum from landfills, which costs 
substaintially more than it would have to recycle it in the first place. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:33:25 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

My Cr 0.02 on Traveller enviromental laws is that the Imperium probably is 
going to have enivornmental laws. As many people have pointed out, low-population
density places (like Alaska) have little incentive to worry about 
environmental damage - even if it will have severe consequences hundreds of
years from now when the population density is higher. It's the Imperium's
job to worry about the long term, and make decisions that short-sighted
member worlds can't. 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 09:20:05 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2112

At 12:45 PM 11/20/97 GMT, you wrote:
>traveller@MPGN.COM,Internet writes:
>They [IG] are still very much alive and shoving sourcebooks out the door. 
>As for their Web site, it appears to be in cold sleep, awaiting revival.
>Perhaps if the administrator's e-mail address appears on their Web site,
>someone (us) should ask that person what's up.

>That may not work very well.  When I asked this individual to please make the
>pages readable to my browser (he was using tags that my browser doesn't
>support), he told me that the pages were hand-coded fo rthe highest quality,
>and tht I should buy a new computer so I could see them properly.  Not
>exactly a customer-support type-of-guy.

I got the same comment when I told him that I actually prefer using Lynx to
browse the web.  This implies to me that the fellow is a technological
Neanderthal who does not pay for his own computers.

Pity.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:54:35 -0500 (EST)
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re: Naval Architect's Manual

V.A.G sayeth:

>Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:25:21 +0100
>From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
>Subject: Re: Naval Architect's Manual
>
>GypsyComet@aol.com wrote:
>
 <snip>

>>facilities, labs, etc and so forth.  All are done on a 1m grid (based on
>>the size of most chairs, anyway; the book doesn't say).  Each type and
>>example is described in basic terms, along with some notes for use with=
>>in a game.
>
>So it's kind of like the SoM of DGP fame?
>If so, i must have it!


  Not quite, though the Starship Operator's Manual is probably the closest
parallel for content. The Naval Architect's Manual does all of its
illustration (with one or two exceptions) as deckplan parts. It never
shows a complete ship, or even the parts of a single ship, unlike SOpM
which put everything into the context of describing the Free Trader.
  Also, SOpM was clearly a Player's book, while NAM is more of a Ref's
book.

  Happily, one of the actual artwork bits shows the cheerfully reckless
alien from Emperor's Vehicles, making this his third appearance (two in
EV; one here). Now all we need is a Contact article...

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 13:14:58 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Naval Architect

Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> >Anyone know if it is good?
> >
> >After the M0 campaign, which included the fatally flawed FS data, and the
> >utterly useless Emperor's Vehicles, I am a bit wary.  I want to hear
> >someone like Dave Golden, Dereck Wildstar,  or Guy Garnett say it is worth
                             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^      ^^^^^^^^^^^
Are these two guys *really* two different people? I've never seen them
together at the same time... ;->  

> >buying before it hits my Xmas list.
> >
> >Scott
> 
> OK namedropping here:
> I want the guy (his name eludes me, http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/)
> that made up the fab Subsidized merchant for Marathon. He also made some
> deckplans over the new style Far Trader with the same quality as late DGP
> ie perfect. If he thinks NA has good deckplans I'll buy, otherwise I pass.

wow... thanks! I made the Far Trader for our game, sized so we could use
it with Snapshot. It's a shame that I haven't been involved in a
Traveller game for a while, so I haven't had the motivation to make
others. :) If only I could get paid for doing it... BITS: Need help on
101 Deckplans? <big grin>

I also get a kick out of seeing my Bilanidin font adorning people's
websites. I'm still working on an update. If only I could get sick and
take some days off work to finish it... heh. I had *so* much more free
time when I was unemployed.

Glenn Hoppe
jumpspace@geocities.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 11:41:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: [TTL] THUDDD 7 Comments (fwd)

Forwarded at John Macpherson's request...


- ---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 01:43:25 -0500 (EST)
From: John Macpherson <john35@wharton.upenn.edu>
 
 THUDDD 7 Comments
 
 XTF-4 Delta Fighter
 
 	This is a straightforward fighter design with good acceleration,
 good sensors, and a reasonable price tag.  The only quibble with it I have
 is that it uses a battery of small laser turrets to add up to one big
 weapon.  I realize that the current (IMHO screwed up) USD and combat
 system allows this to happen, but I personally stick to the Brilliant
 Lances rules which uses the same assumptions about the physical universe
 that FF&S2 does. Under those rules four small turrets do four times the 
 damage but have only the armor penetration of one turret.  For that 
 reason, I think the XTF-4 would be better off with one or two larger 
 laser weapons.
 	Other comments:  why no long range communicator?  A maser would 
 be appropriate.  The armor is a bit light.  Different sensors are listed 
 in the USD and the technical description, which is it?
 
 -------------------------
 Gede-class Strike Fighter
 
 	The Gede is a heavy fighter with all the trimmings.  The 
 acceleration is fine, the armor is good, and the sensor suite is 
 excellent.  
 	I have three basic problems with the fighter: 
 	(1) I'm not sure I believe in the fighter/bomber mission of using
 fighter-carried missiles to attack large warships.  As a way to clear
 escorts and scout-craft, perhaps, but I think the secondary weapons on a
 large warship and its likely screen of escorts would exact a heavy toll on
 attacking fighters.  It may be that the IN hopes to use these fighters
 against lower-tech opponents and therefore believes that it can get away
 with it.  If so, this mission is one that is likely to fade with history. 
 	(2) The description states that the fighter can use the PAWs MFD 
 along with the dedicated Missile MFD to control all 8 missiles.  The 
 problem is that this would require a third crewman because each MFD 
 requires a gunner.  The assumption appears to be that the pilot will use 
 the MFD, but since the pilot will be very needed for evading the target's 
 secondary weapons fire it would not be responsible for him to divide his 
 attentions, even though T4 _might_ allow him to do so.  I say might 
 because the rules are unclear to me.
 	(3) My last problem with the Gede is the PAW.  It's really not 
 as effective as a laser would be.  Yes, it doesn't have to worry about 
 sand, but in a world of non-ablative armor and superior laser 
 penetration, it's next to useless.  The only thing it would be good for 
 is disabling civillian computers, since a hit from a PAW forces a reset 
 on any non-fiber-optic computer.
 
 	Other comments:  I'd replace the laser comm with a maser since it 
 can be used through atmosphere.  The jammers seem a little lavish, but 
 given this fighters difficult mission, maybe they are warranted.  This 
 figher is rather expensive, but this is likely to be unavoidable for a 
 ship with this mission.
 
 ---------------------------------
 Gentle Breeze-class Heavy Fighter
 
 	The Breeze is of modest size, acceleration, and price-tag.  
 However, it has excellent stealth and ranged-attack capabilities.  The 
 laser's range allows the fighter to put the hurt on targets at great 
 distances.  The only problem is that at 61Mj's there isn't much hurt to 
 put on.  The laser should have at least twice the DE to be a real threat.
 The stealth characteristics are the best thing about this ship.
 
 
 ----------------------------------
 Tsiko-class Heavy Fighter
 
 	As the designer of the Darkstar, I know all about "gimmick" 
 ships, and while this one has a good gimmick, it wouldn't be terribly 
 useful in actual combat.  The MG has such short range and the ship itself 
 is so slow that any real warship could simply outrun it and shoot it to 
 pieces as it chased.  Not to mention the fact that a warship would likely 
 have a meson screen and therefore wouldn't have to worry much even if the 
 Tsiko somehow did get close.
 	As for attacking civillian vessels with an MG, why bother?  
Again, the Tsiko has to be virtually on top of the target before its MG is 
at all effective, and unless the civillian vessel is unescorted, the 
Tsiko will have to make its way past small agile warships with all of the 
problems discussed above.  With the 570MCr this ship costs, you could buy 
one or more of the SDBs designed in the last THUDDD that would be more 
effective (even though only TL-10) and more flexible.
	More silliness:  The point defense lasers are so weak they hardly 
make good anti-personnel weapons, let alone good PD lasers.  Furthermore, 
since there is only one gunner, they have to be fired at the same target 
using the MFD.  What's the good of two PD lasers if they have to attack 
the same target?  Why not one decent one?
	In the above I allude to another big problem, the lack of 
gunners.  This fighter has an MG, 2 lasers, and a sandcaster.  To run 
these effectively the vessel needs at least 2 gunners, one for the 
lasers, one for the sandcaster, and let the pilot divide his attentions 
between flying and using the fixed forward mount, should using all three 
be necessary at the same time.  With just one gunner, even if the lasers 
aren't being used, the fighter crew has the choice of defending itself 
with the sandcaster and accepting poor fire from the distracted pilot, or 
forgoing the protection of the sandcaster.  For such an expensive ship, 
this seems really silly.
	The only good things I can say about this ship is that it is 
creative, has nice stealth characteristics, and has a bunk so the crew 
can stay on station for long periods. 
 

- ----------------------------------
MF357 Drachen Jaeger-class Heavy Fighter

	The designer obviously busted tail designing this ship and the 
effort paid off handsomely.  I think this may be one of the best designed 
ships ever submitted to a THUDDD.
	First of all, I have to congratulate the designer for taking the 
mission criteria seriously and really thinking through what it would take 
to accomplish them.  IMHO, too many designers and commentators seem to 
have ideas about space combat and appropriate tactics that haven't been 
tested by real experience.  Even with the current messed-up space combat 
system, this designer has come up with a winner.
	The extreme acceleration capability of the craft is the first
thing that catchs the eye.  The crew will be at the limit of their
endurance with 3Gs comped, 1G support from G-tanks, the crew experiences a
full 3Gs at max accel.  They can obviously take 1G standing, the BL rules
say 2Gs sitting is acceptable, so the last G will degrade their
effectiveness.  The high Gs give the fighter impressive intercept and 
patrol performance.  Nevertheless, since the crew cannot take the full 
accel for long periods (i.e. many hours) I'm not sure that 6Gs wouldn't 
be better.  Some other features could be added with a lower accel and/or 
the size & price could be lowered.
	The decision to go with a big laser was the correct one.  The
475Mj laser will have excellent penetration and good damage capability. 
Notice that it is superior to both the PAW and MG weapons that were on
other designs.  There are situations where having the laser in a turret
would be desirable, though this does tie up the second crewman.  The
explicit set-aside for air-to-ground munitions is nice.  The designer
doesn't note it but it also appears that it could carry 4 space missiles.
	External armor on the design is rather light, but the component 
armor around the crew space and life support is impressive.  The decision 
to only g-comp the crew area shows a good eye.  I also like the ship's 
locker and air-lock.
	I share the designer's ambivalence about the scuttle plug.
	I _really_ like the modular 5-Td pod.  This could be used to 
carry several independent missiles that can be launched from further 
out than the controlled variety, particularly if equipped with fusion 
drives.  Coupled with the internal munitions bay this gives the fighter 
an excellent missile carrying capacity.  If desired the electronics 
officer could also use the MFD for controlled missiles.  The other 
proposed uses for the pod are also ingenious, particularly the troop pod.
	A maser would be nice for talking to the carrier when the fighter 
is inside an atmosphere.  A Lidar would also be a great addition to the 
sensor suite.  I understand from the designer's notes that surface area 
devoted to PP radiators did not allow these or other options, such as 
stealthing or masking, to be installed.  I think these are more good 
reasons to ratchet the Gs back to 6.
	The only question I have about this ship is whether its 
performance is rated with or without the pod.


- ----------------------------------
X-1108 Firefly-class Prototype Fighter

	I like this fighter because it's cheap.  You could buy two for 
the price of the next cheapest fighter and you could buy more than 10 for 
the price of the most expensive fighter.  Unfortunately, a poor choice of 
weapon limits the ship somewhat.  If the two 225Mj lasers were replaced 
with a single 475Mj laser I suspect performance would be improved.  The 
small 50Mj lasers don't appear to have any damage at all, which doesn't 
make them very useful.  I also have the same question that I had before, 
which is who is going to run them?  I suppose the pilot could try to do 
that as well as fly if all the fighter is doing is augmenting a friendly 
ship's PD screen.  
	The sandcaster has the same crewing problem, though it 
is a nice solution to the armor problem.  Its AV seems suspiciously 
high, too.  If that's a legal design it probably shouldn't be.
	The passive tracker is redundant and I have no idea why the 
designer saw fit to include so many laser comms.  The g-tanks are also 
not really needed given the fighter's max accel is only 4.7 Gs.


	This THUDDD review is long enough as it is, so I'm going to stop 
before getting into a general discussion of fighter design.  If anyone 
has an interest in discussing these issues further, email me directly or 
send comments to the trav-tech (formerly gdw-beta) list.

- -JM

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:24:30 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: CSC for PC's?

"Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net> wrote:

>I understand that CSC now exists for PC compatibles, where can I find it?

Not as such - CSC exists for MacOS and several PC owners have reported
success in running it with a Mac emulator for Wintel Boxes called Executor.

I don't have the URL's to hand, but CSC is on Rob Prior's pages.

Dom

    ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Shoggoths normally attack with their foam-rubber tentacles"
     Cthulhu Live - Horror LRP Rules, pg 81, Chaosium Inc.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 12:14:28 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: JTAS Articles

I'm wondering if anyone here has had better luck than I've had.  I had an
article appear in JTAS #26, which appeared in May.  After much email and a
few phone calls I have still not been paid.  Has anyone else?  They've
been promising that a contract will arrive "real soon now" since August. 

In September I did receive a contract, for an article of mine which will
appear in JTAS #27 (anyone have any clue when that one is due out?)

Has everyone else who wrote for JTAS faired similarly, or is there 
someone I need to contact who I haven't (I've emailed Mr. Solomon and 
emailed and called Tim Brown).

Many Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:00:57 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

>
   Hi.
   
> From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
   
>>Economics is not a /prescription/ for how humans
>>   /should/ behave; it is a /description/ of how humans /do/ behave.
   
> Economics doesn't reflect absolute truths; it makes subjective decisions
> based on relatively arbitrary criteria, including extremely arbitrary 
> accounting conventions. 
   
   Economics reflects truth in the same way that Physics, Chemistry, and
   other sciences reflect truth.  Obviously, an incorrect economic theory
   will not model the truth correctly just as an incorrect physical
   theory will not model the truth correctly.  Making sure that your
   theories are right is what makes science in general so hard, but the
   whole idea of all sciences is that they reflect the truth and
   (eventually) weed out falsehood.
   
> (To take a non-environmentalist example, one of the
> reasons that CEO's get huge stock options is that accounting convention
> currently doesn't count those stock options against a company's profit/loss
>  - there was a great outcry when the american acounting standards organization
> (whose name escapes me) proposed changing this.) 
   
   This is an accounting convention.  It has as much bearing on Economics
   as an engineering convention has on Physics.  Economists, like
   Physicists, need to take care that their theories remain independent
   of such conventions.  The discipline of science is intended to ensure
   such independence.
   
> In the environmental category, mainstream economic decision-making has 
> problems with global-type problems like ozone depletion, where small c
> contributions from everyone add up to a global problem. Similarly it has
> no good mechanism for long-term decisions. Recycling aluminum is not 
> currently cost-effective compared to digging up new aluminum; but if you
> never recycle aluminum and your population keeps growing sooner or later you
> run out and end up digging up the old aluminum from landfills, which costs 
> substaintially more than it would have to recycle it in the first place. 
   
   This is a good argument in favor of recycling aluminum.  I especially
   like the fact that you used economics to demonstrate it.  (Does this
   mean that it doesn't reflect the truth? 8^)  You seem to have come up
   with an adequate mechanism for making a long term decision just fine,
   and you used economics to do it.
   
> Bruce
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: 20 Nov 1997 15:07 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Setting up the Archives

Howdy all,

I would like to see an AAB on the Web.

There are SO MANY websites out there with useful data
on them... I wish there were a few archive sites by region
that had the same basic data package available on them...
or that there were specific sites that are recognized as
Archives for particular Traveller material.

I wonder if anyone else has been working on this?  It 
shouldn't be all that hard to start up and maintain...

The thing that sparked my imagination about following an
Archive model was the simple title -- Joe Heck's Missouri
Traveller Archive.  It sounded useful and meaningful.

It would be nice to have Archive sites for:

Sector Data (M:0, M:1100, M:1200 ...)
Starship Plans
Vehicle Plans
Equipment Plans
Library Data
Character Data
House Rules (?)
Programs/Scripts
other?

Joe, you have quite a bit of subject material there, and
it's organized well.  Software, HIWG, deckplans, languages,
software... perhaps your site should be the primary
Archive for some of this.  What does everyone think?

Also, we have a few archives of sector data -- on personal
web pages as well as Northern Arizona U and Berkely.
Is there an all-encompassing Archive that has most of the
popularly recognized data, the most correct and complete
data?

The HIWG Archive on Roger Myre's page contains house rules,
maps, sector data (separately for M1100 and M1200), as well
as history and scenarios.  Perhaps this should be the Archive 
for sector data and history?

David Watson has Library Data on-line -- an EXTREMELY useful
resource.  (By the way, has anyone thought of adding
JavaScript to prompt the user for a potential entry--
thus loading the proper file if one exists?)  I suggest Mr. 
Watson have the honors of having the Library Data Archive.
As an aside, the page's presentation is nice too.

In fact, David's site is quite impressive, with hooks for
an incredible amount of data.  Perhaps his site could be
a model of sorts for these Archives?  Or if a standard
basic data set could be amassed, several sites could 
carry a complete set of data, with an index format like
David's site.  Simply wonderful...

I remember SOMEONE archiving the myriads of vehicles built
with CSC.  Shall that be the Equipment Archive?

There are starships and deckplans scattered all over.  Can
we get a central Archive for these?

Mr. Lockett's "Jackson Downport" looks like it could easily
be the Archive for GURPS Traveller.  Any opinions?

Please post your thoughts on this!  Do you think it's do-able?

Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2114
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Friday, November 21 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2115



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Digest Frequency?
re: CSC for PC's?
Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?
re: Naval Ships and Transponders
Sector Data Suggestions
Re: Traveller Writers List
Specific UWP changes, related to my last post
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2111 
Naval Architects Handbook
Economics? 
Re: Traveller Writers List

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:38:39 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Digest Frequency?

At 09:50 AM 11/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Ah, what's the frequency Kenneth?
>
>Have a bunch of people been booted from the list recently?
>Digest frequency dropped from 4-6 per day to 1 a day over
>the last couple of days. 
>
>TML is my #1 distraction while at work and I demand more of it!

This should spark discussion:

What if a bunch of pirates formed a feudal trchnocracy on a near-C rock and
held discussions about Heinlein with their Virus-infected lesbian Aslan
computer which use KB2.0.  They are all armed with pelvic mounted plasma
guns, and can drop a deer at 2km through dense woods.

Hope you got a *big* mailbox Ethan!!!  :)


+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
|----------------------------------------|
| "The best tank terrain is that without |
|  anti-tank weapons."                   |
|            -Russian Military Doctrine  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:34:36 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: CSC for PC's?

At 05:24 PM 11/20/97 +0000, you wrote:
>"Eric Freitas" <edf@atlantic.net> wrote:
>
>>I understand that CSC now exists for PC compatibles, where can I find it?
>
>Not as such - CSC exists for MacOS and several PC owners have reported
>success in running it with a Mac emulator for Wintel Boxes called Executor.

Alas, Executor seems to expect you to be running (spit)Win95.  Oh, the
torment! I, the Gearhead From Heck!  Whose first request after surgery was
for my calculator and FFS, cause I'd had a neat idea just before being
sedated, should be cast out of Eden for my choice of OS..
- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
+------------------------------------------------+
| "Only on the surface has the strategic missile |
| race reflected competition between the United  |
| States and the Soviet Union; the real struggle |
| is between the US Air Force and its archrival  |
| the US Navy."              -Samuel H. Day, Jr. |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:10:51 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?

Howdy all,

I know that Leonard Erickson was working on this, and I seem to recall some
others were as well.

Has anyone come up with a canonical list of all mentioned sectors and their
positions?

For example - Core is right above Massillia.  If Core is sector AA, with
the first letter being spin/trailing, and the second being core/rimward,
and with letters increasing towards trailing and rimward, then below core
is Massillia at AB, and to spinward is Dagagushag at BA.  Lishun is
Coreward of Core at Az.

Anyone done this?

(I am playing with some of the Stanford GraphBase programs to try and
figure out likely places for high pop worlds.)

Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 15:44:50 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Naval Ships and Transponders

At 05:20 PM 11/20/97 +0100, you wrote:

>Just came to me. Why not put an off/on switch on the cable sending the
>signal from the transponder to the antennea. If it has some way of
>checking that it sends something, that can't be to hard to fool.

I seem to recall that transponders HAD an on/off switch.  This was to keep
you from being hit by radio-homing missiles.  Of course, if the IN ever
looks at your log, the computer will have noted exactly when the
trnasponder was turned off, and when it was turned back on...  they will be
interested in knowing why you did this.

In my game, you can turn the transponder off.. you have to get the SPA to
turn it back on, and there is paperwork involved.  ("So, you were attacked
by Vargr corsairs seven weeks ago, and turned the transponder unit to avoid
detection.. might I ask why you've waited this long to have it
reactivated?")
- --
+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
| "Strategy is the art of making use of time  |
|  and space.  I am less concerned about the  |
|  latter than the former.  Space we can      |
|  recover, lost time never."                 |
|         -Napoleon Bonaparte, French soldier |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:03:41 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Sector Data Suggestions

At 10:20 AM 11/19/97 -0500, Marc wrote:
>In a message dated 97-11-18 05:59:30 EST, you write:
>> [suggestion to edit data, and that now is a good time]
>>IMHO, now would be a perfect time to step back and do
>> such an edit.  I would be more than happy to humbly volunteer my services
>> for that project, as I'm sure many other people would as well.

>I think the first step is to make a full file with all the know data for 1105
>in it. Then, to distill the file into what is known and doesn't change
>between eras (world size, etc). The to look at what the file format should
>be. And finally discuss changes to the data itself.
>
>Thanks for volunteering.

I am willing to help.  I have some Python scripts that I am using to alter
the FS data a bit, and it seems quite doable.

Here is what I have put together for my own revision of the M0 data:

We have exactly one sample planetary system, so we can put in almost any
data we want, BUT it seems to me that we should set up, in advance, some
ground rules for how things "should" be generated.  They may not be right,
but they are explicit.  Then, heretics can at least know what they are
disagreeing with.

Further, anything involving a computer should include the formulas, and as
detailed as it must be, but no more.  For example, anything that needs to
know the next world over is fine, but every world within one jump gets to
be a lot of data when ships are jump six.

I would suggest that we NOT compile the 1105 data, and revert, though I
would love to see the 1105 data compiled, but instead come up with the
growth patterns from the long night era, and try to preserve the important
1105 data by judicious alteration of M0.  After that, let progress
"naturally", as it seems like that will make later history more reasonable.

So, here are the guiding principles in my proposal.  Every one of these has
an exception, but an exception to these rules requires a hand wave, and so
should be rare:

1.  A world that is important will rarely drop to trivial status in as
little as a thousand years, if it survives at all.  Thus, the high pop
worlds in 1105 have a good chance of being high pop worlds in Y0, and were
likely important in -1776.  Even so, there are more high pop worlds in 1100
than there were in Y0.

Result: if we know the high pop worlds in M0, then we probably know them in
Y1100.

2.  Nearly everyone lost jump drive during the long night, and likely
fusion power, so important worlds in Y0 should be at least somewhat habitable.

Result: habitable worlds become important

3.  It requires a fair population base to generate and maintain high tech
levels, with the exceptions of very motivated people, or people supplied by
another world.  I am stating by fiat that leading edge post fusion
technology requires 10,000M people within one jump, peak TL-1 requires
1000M, peak TL-2 requires 100M, and peak TL-3 requires 10M.  Well designed
commerce networks, such as the Ziru Sirka, will drop one power of ten off
that, thus they could easily maintain local TL9 technology on most worlds,
but it would very unusual for a world to reach TL10, and the province
capitals, which had a billion people or more, could easily dominate them.

In M0, a normal world will need to have roughly 10M people either on it or
within jump 1 to maintain TL9, 100M for TL11, and 1000M for 12.  As a
result, the high pop worlds become the hubs for pocket empires, and the
expansionist philosophy of M0 makes sense.

Result: I cannot see any other reason for worlds that had some people in Y0
not being at least TL12 by Y1100, yet there were clearly a lot of low tech
worlds then.

3.  The Vilani were conservative, so primarily Vilani areas did not grow
fast, especially once they reached the "chosen population."

Result: this results in the low populations in later years, which a
thousand years of growth would otherwise give.

4.  It is easier to live somewhere if you can grow your own food on it.
Fusion lets you ignore this, but pre TL9, survival is difficult if food
does not grow.    Post TL12, you grow food with robots, but it still
reduces the danger of industrial accidents.

Result: "Good" worlds are more likely to have people than "Bad" worlds.

5.  Proposal number one: Add a resource rating to the UWP, a la Pocket
Empires.

Result: it is easier to tell what worlds are good if you know whether it is
an easy place to build things.  In my current game, Rich vs. Poor are
entirely determined by resources.

6.  Add a life rating.

Groundless assumption: after reading up on it, I am in the "Planets with
either oxy or reducing atmospheres and shirtsleeve temperatures are pretty
common, if planets exist at all in the system" camp, and thus, I suspect
the universe is teeming with life.  This can be argued, but it is how my
game is going.

Result: more places worth colonizing, and less DM angst, as players ask why
the colonists were stupid enough to colonize this icky world.

I am not claiming that you should find an earth-clone in every system, but
that if there is not one, then people would likely rather live in a colony
than on a scrungy world that is inherently dangerous, and that has gravity
to boot.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:09:21 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller Writers List

Does Traveller fiction count? I'm working on a set of short stories
set in M:0 around the "adventures" of Kyal La Manga of the Office of
Calendar Compliance. I'm about half way through the first and would
appreciate feedback.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 16:38:07 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Specific UWP changes, related to my last post

Ok, a bit ago, I posted the way I intend to have my world work.  This
resulted in a few changes to how UWPs were calculated, and placed.

I note that the distribution of mass in the system makes it pretty easy to
get worlds of any size you like.  As a result, I am going to assume that
people will live either on mainworlds which are near habitable (size in the
..7 to 2 earth radii), or zero G worlds.  A size 2 world is likely the worst
option, so people will likely live in colonies around those.

The worlds in the system, not conditional on whether a person would think
of them as the "best" planet are a bit less contrived, as they follow
standard distributions.  I see little wrong with the usual method for
determining planetary size, as long as you are not assuming that people
picked it as the best place to live.

Number of bodies:
The standard distribution seems fine to me:
1D3-1 belts, 1D-1 gas giants, and 10 important orbits in a system, of which
two or three might have potentially habitable worlds, and one or two might
be in orbit around gas giants.

Size:
Main worlds are 20% size zero, and the rest uniform from size 6-B, for a
gravity range of 0.7 to 1.5 G, as this can hold an earthlike atmosphere,
though it may not have an earthlike mix.  Worlds in a system, not
conditional on this being a main world, follow a more standard distribution.

Atm:
Main worlds with gravity will usually have either oxy or reducing
atmospheres.  Some of the things I have read recently are fairly convincing
that the nitrogen fixing critters that gave us an oxy atmosphere should be
pretty likely.  This implies that most worlds with liquid water
temperatures will likely have a layer of scum that has given it an O2
atmosphere, possibly with some taints, and possibly not complete as yet.

Pressure ranges on most from 0.5-2.0 atm on worlds with 0.7G or more, with
perhaps a quarter having taints of some kind.

Water: worlds with the gravity to hold it will usually have a fair amount
of it, though if the temperature is extreme in either direction, it is not
going to be freestanding.  I do believe the gaia hypothesis to some extent
- - if life can form on a planet, it will ameliorate some of the
environmental swings.

Life: water worlds with decent atmospheres are very likely to have life, of
at least the pond scum variety.  Rate it on a 2D with modifiers.

Resources: rate it on a 2D.  For rating purposes, you should add one per
belt and one per gas giant.  (This does not depend on tech level - the
people doing the rating have starships even if the locals do not.)

Pop:  Half of the worlds are unpopulated, roughly, in m0.  See below for
details.

Xenophobia: 2D

Cohesiveness: 2D

Technological bias: 2D

Gov:  As before, but a flatter distributions.  Company planets would seem
to be more common in this era than later.  Further, lots of cohesiveness
would produce more oppressive government, I suspect.

Law: rate on 2D, modifiers for different government types.  I do not
believe that all religious dictatorships are going to be more repressive
than, say, oligarchies.  Instead, I think this is more a cultural trait

Desirability:

The desirability is the sum of the resources and the life scores.
Modifiers are:
+1 gas giant
+1 belts in system
+1 water refueling available

In addition, the colonization likelihood score is used to see where those
pop 9 and A world go next.  Take the desirability and add
+3 within one hex of a pop A world with space flight
+2 within one hex of a pop 9 world with space flight

This implies a two step process to place worlds, such that the pop A and
pop 9 worlds are placed first, then the scores are recalculated.  Note also
that the standard deviation of the desirability is something like 2, thus
being within one hex of a high pop world makes colonization roughly twice
as likely.

Population distribution:

3 in 36 are still high pop, but going above 10,000M requires TL9, and above
20,000 requires TL12.  13 in 36 have populations between a million and a
billion, which is somewhat more than in standard Traveller.  These are
distributed as 4 pop 8, 4 pop 7, and 5 pop 6.  2 in 36 have a population of
less than a million, and 18 in 36 are open for the taking.

From what I said above, you need a lot of people to maintain technology,
unless it is a primary societal goal.  By 1100, the average TL was around
12, representing around 1000M people working on technology in a given area,
with smaller high tech populations indicating more dedication on the part
of that society.

This is not as hard as it sounds - with J3 drives linking the universities
and research labs, a typical high pop world is in range of ~18 other
worlds, which likely means two other high pop worlds.  Further, any world
with space flight will be connected with ~three others in standard regions,
and so if they have populations ~3.3 million apiece, space flight will have
been maintained.

Placement algorithm:

Decide how many worlds are going to be designed in this batch.  The number
should be comfortably more than 36 for the population placement to be
statistically friendly.

Generate all of the physical stats.  Also decide how many pop A and pop 9
worlds will be placed, noting that these should be roughly 3 in 36.  (If
the dice are fair, it will be pretty close to that - the law of large
numbers keeps the variance pretty small.)

Select randomly among the worlds in the top quintile (top fifth) of
desirability score.  Note that while it would make sense for the worlds
near the high pop world to also be high pop, many of these were provincial
capitals in the Vilani era, and thus were spaced farther apart by design.

Create the colonization score by adding the modifiers for close high pop
worlds to the desirability scores as needed.

Allocate the remaining worlds at random, with the likelihood of a world
being populated being related to the colonization score.

An example:

We wish to develop a group of 16 hexes, which contain 8 worlds.  Typically,
a group of 8 only has a 2 in 3 of having a high pop world at all.  We dice
for the total list of populations to place by the above probabilities, and
find that we are placing
1 pop 9
1 pop 7
1 pop 6
1 pop 4
4 pop 0

It was fairly unlikely for this cluster to have any op 9 or A worlds at
all, and for it to have any worlds below pop 6, but it got lucky on both
counts.

We have determined the following physical stats:
     SAH--- -BG RL D  C
     ity--- -ea ei e  o
     zmd--- -ls sf s  l
     eor--- -tG oe i  o
     |so--- -si u| r  n
     |||     || r| e  y
0101 000--- -12 A0 10 10
0102 770--- -01 97 16 16
0104 872--- -01 7A 18 18
0202 674--- -10 A4 15 15
0203 976--- -20 79 17 17
0303 A78--- -22 E5 20 20
0401 B75--- -11 68 15 15
0404 873--- -10 C6 19 19

Note that all but one of the shirtsleeve worlds got the plus one from water
refueling.

Now, we take the top quintile:

0303 A78--- -22 E5 20 20
0404 873--- -10 C6 19 20

Flipping a coin, we find that 0303 is now a pop 9 world.  This boosts the
colony scores of all worlds one hex away by one.

     SAH--- -BG RL D  C
     ity--- -ea ei e  o
     zmd--- -ls sf s  l
     eor--- -tG oe i  o
     |so--- -si u| r  n
     |||     || r| e  y
0101 000--- -12 A0 10 10
0102 770--- -01 97 16 16
0104 872--- -01 7A 18 18
0202 674--- -10 A4 15 17 <- went up
0203 976--- -20 79 17 19 <- went up
0303 A789-- -22 E5 20 21
0401 B75--- -11 68 15 15
0404 873--- -10 C6 19 19

Now, we need only place the pop 7, pop 6 and pop 4 worlds, and we are done.

Ranked worlds:
hex  score
0404 19
0203 19 <- went up
0104 18
0202 17 <- went up
0102 16
0401 15
0101 10

Total colony score: 114.

By percentages:
hex  score cumulative
0404 17%   17%
0203 17%   34%
0104 16%   50%
0202 16%   66%
0102 14%   80%
0401 13%   93%
0101  7%   100%

Our 1-100 draws were (dropping duplicates) 23, 87, and 56.

Which makes the winners
0203 is the pop 7
0401 is the pop 6
0202 is the pop 4

     SAH--- -BG RL D
     ity--- -ea ei e
     zmd--- -ls sf s
     eor--- -tG oe i
     |so--- -si u| r
     |||     || r| e
0101 000--- -12 A0 10
0102 770--- -01 97 16
0104 872--- -01 7A 18
0202 6744-- -10 A4 15
0203 9767-- -20 79 17
0303 A78--- -22 E5 20
0401 B756-- -11 68 15
0404 873--- -10 C6 19

Note that we can now ignore the colony score, since we will not need it
again until we have a wave of expansion.

Note also that this makes it fairly unlikely that an asteroid world is
going to be a major hub of civilization, unless it has a just tremendous
resources score.  To me, this is fitting, as asteroid worlds have to work
harder to bring in food than other worlds, which means they have to have
very high resource ratings to be worth colonizing.

Note further that desirability is not the be all and end all.  A high
resources score is quite handy.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:02:06 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

At 04:00 PM 11/20/97 -0500, Rob Flamming wrote:
>> From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>>>Economics is not a /prescription/ for how humans
>>>   /should/ behave; it is a /description/ of how humans /do/ behave.
>> Economics doesn't reflect absolute truths; it makes subjective decisions
>> based on relatively arbitrary criteria, including extremely arbitrary 
>> accounting conventions. 
>   Economics reflects truth in the same way that Physics, Chemistry, and
>   other sciences reflect truth.  Obviously, an incorrect economic theory
>   will not model the truth correctly just as an incorrect physical
>   theory will not model the truth correctly.

Please do not take this too badly, but I must strenuously disagree,  A
primary difference between Physics, Chemistry, and other hard sciences, and
Economics, along with many of the other social sciences is repeatability
and system independence.  Most of the hard sciences have varying degrees of
those, while the social sciences have a hard time inducing them.  I draw
this conclusion after earning two degrees in hard science, and working for
the last five years for Economists developing Econometric software, so I am
not arguing from a purely theoretical basis.

Repeatability:

Like cosmology, Economics has a hard time coming up with new data for a
previous situation - once the situation has passed, you have all of the
data you are ever likely to get on that economic climate.  Even if it
returns, it is not likely to be a similar situation.  This problem plagues
economists, especially since when you start abstracting things in the model
to make it one that might be general enough to apply to more than a single
economic era, the benefits of the models tend to vanish.

This might arguably be solved with better computing power, and a more
comprehensive model of how societies function.  I do believe, for instance,
that the Vilani system was far better understood, as they had much less
diversity, and thus could reasonably expect to see similar situation arise.

System independence:

The physical universe cannot change behavior according to our current
theories, while the people who practice and formulate economics can alter
the behavior of the people they are trying to model.  For instance, recent
census data has pointed out the new trends in child rearing, especially as
it affects the number of single parents.  This information has already
started to affect the debates on welfare and other issues, which means that
a model that perfectly predicted behavior without that information would
have some added difficulty.

I am aware that QM implies a lack of observer independence, but on the
macro scale that most hard sciences take place, observer independence is
still effective.  For example, if you are measuring the Hall effect, which
depends on QM, you will get statistically significant experimental results
which match a colleague with different expectations, even if the data has
already been published.

>  Making sure that your
>   theories are right is what makes science in general so hard, but the
>   whole idea of all sciences is that they reflect the truth and
>   (eventually) weed out falsehood.

Clearly, clearly, but it is easier to do this in the physical sciences
where you system does not adapt to what you do quite so well, and where
your system can be reset to the initial state so you can look at it in detail.

[accounting conventions mentioned]

>   This is an accounting convention.  It has as much bearing on Economics
>   as an engineering convention has on Physics.  Economists, like
>   Physicists, need to take care that their theories remain independent
>   of such conventions.  The discipline of science is intended to ensure
>   such independence.

While this is true in the abstract, I believe that economics, by its very
nature, is going to be affected by its conventions more than the hard
sciences usually are.  Economists have a great deal of difficulty isolating
factors under investigation, which include the responses to accounting
conventions.  I do not mean data isolation with statistical techniques, I
mean actually separating a group of people and their behaviors from the
outside world, so that they can be examined under different events.  Much
like psychology, you have a hard time controlling the initial conditions,
and the behaviors are determined in part by those accounting conventions.

Let me say it another way - an engineering convention, such as the sign on
the electron's charge, can be accounted for.  Likewise a good physicist can
get an idea of how well their measurement device works, which falls out of
those engineering conventions.  The economist, on the other hand, cannot so
easily separate the behavior of people from the accounting convention that
engendered the behavior.

Clearly, economists do try to make their plans usable over the long term,
but the difficulties inherent in their task will cause small amounts of
noise in their models to amplify, such that it is very difficult to make a
long term prediction good enough to convince someone of an economic good
that is a decade away.  In other words, before being worried about a crisis
predicted for a decade from now, I am going to examine what the same group
said ten years back, and see if they have any credibility over that time
horizon.

Note: hard scientists also have their share of such things.  Any time you
try to make a model of a complex system, and push your models beyond design
constraints, you are going to have some amount of difficulty.  Predicting
weather a decade hence is about a tough as predicting the market over the
same time period.  Neither is very reliable after next week.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:23:12 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2111 

From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
>Subject: challenge and rob prior! [was: crimes against the empire]
>Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior) replied:
>>>I get some kind of Deja vu all over again. Someone wrote an article in
>>>Challenge about Imperial law with the same flaws (carbon copy of US law)
>>>and someone sent a letter with almost exactly the same criticism. Have I
>>>entered a timeloop here?
>>That was me (the letter), in Challenge #53.  Nice to know someone actually
>>read it :-)
>
>I read it and have just reread it.  And a jolly good letter it was too.
>Perhaps you should write something similar for the next JTAS about the
>last!  Which brings me circuitously around to a question - does anyone know
>what's up with the next JTAS?

"Someone" wrote the article?  Someone??

Phbht.  And it wasn't based on US law, actually, very much at all.

We've been around the circle a number of times on the list here
with various people on each side, arguing about "Imperial Law"s
view of how the legal system should work.  I personally think that
the article is still ok, but to fit best with the canonical universe you
have to emphasize the Imperial concentration on keeping trade and
commerce flowing smoothly.  Your mileage will, of course, vary.


- -george william herbert
gherbert@crl.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 18:01:12 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Naval Architects Handbook

Since I'm in the "Lonely gearhead" category (great phrase, whoever 
used it...) I won't be buying a copy, but I browsed at length in the store.
Generally good deckplans, *terrible*, *terrible* text, clearly
written by someone with no particular insight into Traveller starship
design or technology (aside from the various exmaples cited here, there's 
the talk of gunners in transparent plasteel turret balls aiming their
weapons by eye (which doesn't even match the deckplans...) and a section
on astrogration/survey sensors which shows TL-7 telescopes in domes.

(Some of the deckplans don't match the component volumes in FFS2, but that's
less of an issue/problem.)

I wonder if there's any chance of IG making the deckplan pieces available
in drawing-program format on a CD-ROM?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 17:55:21 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Economics? 

Hello,
....
>   as an engineering convention has on Physics.  Economists, like
>   Physicists, need to take care that their theories remain independent
>   of such conventions.  The discipline of science is intended to ensure
>   such independence.
>   
>> In the environmental category, mainstream economic decision-making has...

  There may be some difference in what is being addressed here. The modern
discipline of Economics certainly has as valid a claim to the "status" of
a science as most of the humanities. OTOH, it is probably a bit more prone
to normative evaluations than chemistry, for example.

  OC, the FarFuture Vilani model of Economic theory probably was perfected
around 1000 AD. But practical (small e-) economic decision-making on a day
to day basis is going to be much less theoretical and affected by the lower
level of the actors involved and the influences on their objectives.

  Certainly a discussion of the 3I's "economic" objectives requires some
analysis of what valuations go into their decision process. Some of those
factors will be the result of political or philosophical debates, which
can only complicate the issue.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:27:19 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Traveller Writers List

Does Traveller fiction count? I'm working on a set of short stories
set in M:0 around the "adventures" of Kyal La Manga of the Office of
Calendar Compliance. I'm about half way through the first and would
appreciate feedback.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2115
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Friday, November 21 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2116



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: [TTL] THUDDD 7 Comments (fwd)
Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?
Glenn's pdf deck plans
Re: Alternate star mapping
Piracy again
Looking Like an idiot.....
Re: Digest Frequency?
Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?
Re: Writer's List
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2112
re: CSC for PC's?
Re: Naval Architect
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: Injury
Economics
re: Naval Ships and Transponders
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:48:02 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: [TTL] THUDDD 7 Comments (fwd)

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Craig Berry wrote:

> MF357 Drachen Jaeger-class Heavy Fighter
>=20
I=B4m always delighted when I see other languages than English giving names=
=20
to worlds, ships or vehicles. I like that, as I do the same for my campaign=
.
If I may correct the one above, it is written in German as one word:=20
Drachenjaeger.
The next step (with slightly more armor) would be the Drachentoeter.

> ----------------------------------
> X-1108 Firefly-class Prototype Fighter
>=20
The German word for =B4Firefly=B4 would be =B4Libelle=B4. If someone needs =
a new=20
idea ...


Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:44:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?

In mail you write:

> Howdy all,
>
> I know that Leonard Erickson was working on this, and I seem to recall some
> others were as well.
>
> Has anyone come up with a canonical list of all mentioned sectors and their
> positions?

I've got a list for all the sectors in the material I have. 

> For example - Core is right above Massillia.  If Core is sector AA, with
> the first letter being spin/trailing, and the second being core/rimward,
> and with letters increasing towards trailing and rimward, then below core
> is Massillia at AB, and to spinward is Dagagushag at BA.  Lishun is
> Coreward of Core at Az.

I use Core = 00. And the numbers go like this:

 J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 A B C D E F G H 
   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^   ^
  -16 -14 -12 -10  -8  -6  -4  -2  0   2   4   6   8   10  12  14  16

Here's a "map". I can't find the ASCII list of names, so I'll have to
recerate it from the database.

+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|5R|5S|5T|5U|5V|5W|5X|5Y|5Z|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|4R|4S|4T|4U|4V|4W|4X|4Y|5Z|40|41|42|  |  |  |  |  |  |
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|3R|3S|3T|3U|3V|3W|3X|3Y|3Z|30|31|32|33|34|35|36|37|38|
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|2R|2S|2T|2U|2V|2W|2X|2Y|2Z|20|21|22|23|24|25|26|27|28|
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|1R|1S|1T|1U|1V|1W|1X|1Y|1Z|10|11|12|13|14|15|16|17|18|
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|0R|0S|0T|0U|OV|0W|0X|0Y|0Z|00|01|02|03|04|05|06|07|08|
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|  |ZS|ZT|ZU|ZV|ZW|ZX|ZY|ZZ|Z0|Z1|Z2|Z3|Z4|Z5|Z6|Z7|Z8|
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|  |YS|YT|YU|YV|YW|YX|YY|YZ|Y0|Y1|Y2|Y3|Y4|Y5|Y6|Y7|Y8|
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|  |XS|XT|XU|XV|XW|XX|XY|XZ|X0|X1|X2|X3|X4|X5|X6|X7|  |
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|  |WS|WT|WU|WV|WW|WX|WY|WZ|W0|W1|W2|W3|W4|W5|W6|W7|  |
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|  |VS|VT|VU|VV|VW|VX|VY|  |  |V1|V2|V3|V4|V5|V6|V7|  |
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+
|  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |  |U1|U2|U3|  |  |  |  |  |
+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+--+

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:29:10 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: Glenn's pdf deck plans

Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca> responded to (Scott?):
>> OK namedropping here:
>> I want the guy (his name eludes me,
http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/)
>> that made up the fab Subsidized merchant for Marathon. He also made some
>> deckplans over the new style Far Trader with the same quality as late
DGP
>> ie perfect. If he thinks NA has good deckplans I'll buy, otherwise I
pass.
>wow... thanks! I made the Far Trader for our game, sized so we could use
>it with Snapshot. It's a shame that I haven't been involved in a
>Traveller game for a while, so I haven't had the motivation to make


I have to agree, I saw these deck plans a while back and was impressed.
I've just looked again and am still impressed.  One snag I've run into is
in printing them out (over a network to a Hewlett Packard 5P), only bits of
them seem to print.  Has anyone else had this problem (I'm assuming it's
something wrong at my end rather than the deck plans themselves).  Could it
be because they're US paper size and I don't seem to be able to adjust that
kind of thing in Acrobat?  Has anyone else solved this or am I going to
have to lay the computer monitor flat and play with minatures on the screen
itself?!



>others. :) If only I could get paid for doing it... BITS: Need help on
>101 Deckplans? <big grin>

I shouldn't jest about that kind of thing, last time I half-heartedly
suggested a 101 book it was taken up with great alacrity by other denizens
of TML.  As a fan of the BITS 101 series, I'd love to see 101 of your
deckplans added to the range, so get badgering Andy....  (of course, could
be tricky getting them sensibly into a BITS sized book).

All the best and keep up the good work.

tc

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 23:17:38 -0600
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

> From: Kenji Schwarz <kenji@accessone.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping
> Date: Thursday, November 20, 1997 9:46 AM
> 
> Anders Backman wrote:
> 
> >I will hereby propose that "Deshi" is the actual (soon to be canon)
Vilani
> >word for their jumplength uunit. Could somebody more versed in Vilani
check
> >if "Deshi" agrees with the current language proposals at TRAV_LANG.
> 
> "Deshi" hasn't come in for discussion yet on the TravLang list (so far
as I
> can remember).  What do you have in mind by saying it's the Vilani word
for
> their "jumplength unit"?  The only published mention of "deshi" (in V&V)
is
> to define it as 1.6-whatever light years, the distance between Vland and
> Tauri (the nearest star).

The Vilani use the deshi as the basic unit of distance in their mapping
system, as the Solomani and 3I use the parsec.  As Solomani and 3I drives
are rated as how many parsecs a ship can jump, Vilani rate a ship as how
many deshi they can jump.

Vilani maps would be slightly different than 3I maps, with each subsector
being 12x15.  Some of the stars would seemingly ship position, such that
two stars 1 hex(parsec) apart on the 3I maps could be 1 or 2 hexes(deshi)
apart on the Vilani maps.

> Hm... and long is a Vilani light-year compared to a Terran light-year,
come
> to think of it?  I'd better go check the Vland system data in V&V...

1 Vland Year = 478.72 standard days (apx 1.31 standard years), so a Vilani
light-year = 1.31 standard light-years.

1 deshi = 2.17 standard light-years = 1.66 Vilani light-years.
1 parsec = 3.26 standard light-years = 2.49 Vilani light-years.

So, what would be the Vilani equivalent of a parsec?  At what distance
from Vland would a star have to be to show a stellar parallax of one
second of arc?

r = 206265 (D/p)  where r is distance, D is baseline, p is arcseconds.

The baseline would be the distance of Vland to its primary = 1.6 AUs

r = 206265 * 1.6 = 330024 AU = 5.216 standard light years = 3.98 Vilani
light years.

Of course, the Vilani parsec is really a meaningless number since is
assumes that the Vilani measure 360 degrees in a circle.


- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 10:54:38 -0000
From: Andrew <andrew.hunt@cableinet.co.uk>
Subject: Piracy again

- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCF66C.2F560A40
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


Hi

I've read the piracy debate and just thought I'd add what happened on =
Wednesday, for what it's worth.

The Far Trader Angel Afloat was programmed to jump to Djinni instead of =
Regina by a member of the crew. Before the Captain could do anything she =
was hailed by a Gazelle class cruiser. Outgunned and out manoeuvred she =
decided she didn't have any choice but to be boarded.

The pirates, actually political dissidents (It's a long story) boarded =
the ship. The PC's offered no resistance as they took away one of the =
passengers. The Pirates then left the Angel to refuel at the Gas Giant =
and head onto Regina.

I suppose that what I am saying is that piracy work if:

1)	The crew believe that they have no chance of winning a fight.
2)	The crew expect to be left alive after boarding
3)	The crew have no attachment to whatever the pirates want.

The major problem as I see it is that is worth more to sell the ship =
than take a risk on low returns. That is why I think most pirates would =
be sponsored by a world or organisation with its own agenda.

Andrew

PS: Does anyone know where I can get details of Regina and surrounds =
from the web. Thanks.

Andrew.hunt@cableinet.co.uk


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- ------ =_NextPart_000_01BCF66C.2F560A40--

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:55:15 -1000
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Looking Like an idiot.....

I don't get the digest version of the TML, and have lost the origional
information on how to get help!

Could someone please send me the subscribe/unsubscibe information for the
list?

Harry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 97 21:35 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Digest Frequency?

In-Reply-To: <34744E2C.33EC7F25@klg.com>

Ethan,

> Ah, what's the frequency Kenneth?
>  
> Have a bunch of people been booted from the list recently?
> Digest frequency dropped from 4-6 per day to 1 a day over
> the last couple of days. 
>  
> TML is my #1 distraction while at work and I demand more of it!

Nonono! It's finally down to a level where I might be able to keep up 
with it.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:11:32 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:

> Has anyone come up with a canonical list of all mentioned sectors and their
> positions?
> 
Yes, there is a complete list on a webpage on the internet. I'm sorry, I 
do not know the adress at the time, but I included the data to my database.
Every Sector in an area of 18 * 12 sectors is named! Much of these also 
got their subsector names.
If no one knows where the website was, I'll search for it - or give my 
copy of the data.

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 02:29:24 -0500
From: Bill Rutherford <worj@topgun.cinecom.com>
Subject: Re: Writer's List

At 08:40 PM 11/19/97 EST, Bryan Borich wrote:

<Snip>...The list is not for lurkers.
>

In a way, this is a shame.  I wonder how many lurkers might join the
esteemed ranks of the writers as a result of watching/reading the interplay
of ideas among and between these writers?  I suppose there are good reasons
- - likely the writers' list doesn't need an extended discussion of the
appropriateness of the shower scene from Starship Troopers...   ;^)



Bill Rutherford
worj@topgun.cinecom.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:55:55 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2112

In mail you write:

> That may not work very well.  When I asked this individual to please make the
> pages readable to my browser (he was using tags that my browser doesn't
> support), he told me that the pages were hand-coded fo rthe highest quality,
> and tht I should buy a new computer so I could see them properly.  Not
> exactly a customer-support type-of-guy.

I'd forward that response to someone higher up along with this comment:

"Which would IG rather have me spending money on? A new computer, or
your games? I can't do both..."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 97 00:08:34 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: re: CSC for PC's?

On 11/20/97 at 03:34 PM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>>Not as such - CSC exists for MacOS and several PC owners have reported
>>success in running it with a Mac emulator for Wintel Boxes called Executor.

>Alas, Executor seems to expect you to be running (spit)Win95.  Oh, the
>torment! I, the Gearhead From Heck!  Whose first request after surgery was
>for my calculator and FFS, cause I'd had a neat idea just before being
>sedated, should be cast out of Eden for my choice of OS.. --

Not so, good Sir! 

I've run it using DOS, using Windows 3.1 running in DOS, in a DOS box
running in OS/2 Warp, and in a DOS box running in Windows 95.  Of course,
the demo version only runs 10 minutes and that limits design time, but it
works...and Rob's CSC program works like a charm.

IAC, Glenn Hoppe has an Excel spreadsheet called Vehicle Factory that does
CSC vehicles. I haven't played with it...I dl'ed it but got sidetracked. 
Knowing Glenn it's probably good.

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:25:45 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Naval Architect

Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote:

>wow... thanks! I made the Far Trader for our game, sized so we could use
>it with Snapshot. It's a shame that I haven't been involved in a
>Traveller game for a while, so I haven't had the motivation to make
>others. :) If only I could get paid for doing it... BITS: Need help on
>101 Deckplans? <big grin>

Unfortunately I'm going to have to shatter a myth here. The BITS profits go
towards promoting Traveller in the UK etc, which is why BITS is allowed to
publish supplements, So it's by-lines only folks... that may change if IG
subsequently buys the supplement to use (eg, the long way home) but Andy
Lilly or Dave Burden are the people to ask on that front.

Of course, if BITS were ever to distribute (for example - Mac) shareware
over here in Europe, the profits would be directed back to the author...
but the 101 stuff (certainly Lifeforms) isn't making aprofit for the
authors.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 21:31:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

In mail you write:

> I don't know. Seems we have to take this as 'coincidence' of the deshi
> being two third of a parsec. (or 3 deshi = 2 parsec). Remember the
> lightyear, wich in my view still dominates our sight of space, being
> 3.26uh... parsecs. And there also is the Astronomical Unit AU ...

The parsec is approximately 3.26 light years. It's based on the AU.
Which is baserd on the size of earth's orbit.

Astronomers mostly use parsecs, because they can measure them
"directly". That is, for stars relatively nearby, you can measure the
apparent position of the star at opposite sides of earth's orbit, and
the angular difference converts directly into parsecs.

Similar techniques give the distances of the other bodies in the solar
system in terms of the size of earth's orbit. 

So astronomers make observations that give *relative* distances.
Measurements in *absolute* distances depend on how accurately they can
measure the size of earth's orbit.

The "light year" is a reall "iffy" unit. It depends on *two* variables.
The speed of light, and the length of the year. While the speed of
light has relatively recently been made a defined constant, the length
of the year is a bit vaguer. Heck, you have to decide *which* year you
mean. The calendar year (365.2425 days), the tropical year (~365.2422
days), the siderial year...

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 08:14:34 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Injury

Marc Miller (CardSharks@aol.com) wrote:

>In a message dated 97-11-20 07:17:41 EST, you write:
>
><< Looks interesting - I hope that you don't change that T4 combat system too
> much (especially with the EA bits linked in) as it was one of the parts of
> the system that really stood out for me (fast and deadly). Also, I could
> use autofire very quickly and understood it the first time that I read it
> (unlike MT and TNE)!
>>>
>
>The problem is that th rules don't currently address what happens if you get
>hit by a truck, or caught in an explosion, or (etc). Hits along just doesn't
>give enough information.

I agree that more clarification is needed in those situations - but I would
argue (having run T4 since November 1996 under these rules) that in
general, the rules are quite good at the moment. Emperor's Arsenal helped
clarify a lot.

The areas that seem grey to me are:

- - The EA rapid and very rapid fire rules/

- - Falling damage (damage level, and effects of gravity on this)

- - What the kinetic damage limit applies to (I don't apply it to lasers,
explosives, HEAP. I do apply it to plasma weapons as they have a seperate
explosive entry)? I have no real problems with this limit.

- - Lasers - the main rules have a laser (TL12 Damage 7) available for
civilian use before military use. In addition, lasers are available 4 TL
higher than they appeared in CT and MT. However, a lower tech level laser
would probably break the design rules....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 20 Nov 1997 22:57:52 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Economics

I see some interesting possibilities with Economics in the Imperium.  I've
had a bit of experience with the discipline and have found it to be a
remarkably poor model (in and of itself) of any type of human behavior.
Most economic laws are nonsense when taken outside of carefully 
controlled circumstances.  Economics as we currently practice it is 
nothing more than a series of fairly loose models of human behavior
which are far too simplistic.  Anyone with experience in the behavior 
of complex systems can tell you that economics equations are pretty 
hopeless for modeling actual marketplace activity.

However, economics is extremely useful in the modern world for
one simple reason, most politicians and business people believe in it.
If the Treasury department and most major corporations are
basing their decisions on economic models, even if the models are
false economics will have a rather large impact on our society.

Essentially, it's a vast shell game, but it is also a very important shell
game.

Assuming that the Vilani and other cultures have no greater 
understanding of how market forces operate, they might well
come up with their own economic "laws".  Now, likely
none of these laws are any more true than our own, but they
would have a vast impact Vilani (or whoever) society.

One obvious one seems to be a firm belief that outside aid cannot
seriously affect the technological development of a culture.  This "law" 
would explain why we have TL 6 worlds 1 parsec away from TL 12 worlds, no
one from the TL 12 world attempts to help raise the tech level of the
neighboring worlds because they are sure the effort will fail. 

Postmodernly yours-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:10:20 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: re: Naval Ships and Transponders

On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 05:20 PM 11/20/97 +0100, you wrote:
> 
> >Just came to me. Why not put an off/on switch on the cable sending the
> >signal from the transponder to the antennea. If it has some way of
> >checking that it sends something, that can't be to hard to fool.
> 
> I seem to recall that transponders HAD an on/off switch.  This was to keep
> you from being hit by radio-homing missiles.  Of course, if the IN ever
> looks at your log, the computer will have noted exactly when the
> trnasponder was turned off, and when it was turned back on...  they will be
> interested in knowing why you did this.
> 
> In my game, you can turn the transponder off.. you have to get the SPA to
> turn it back on, and there is paperwork involved.  ("So, you were attacked
> by Vargr corsairs seven weeks ago, and turned the transponder unit to avoid
> detection.. might I ask why you've waited this long to have it
> reactivated?")

But why can't you just put an on/off switch on the cable running from the
transponder to its antenna. Or something that will fool the transponder
into thinking that it is sending. That would keep the athourities from
ever knowing about why you switched it off, unless they do a fine search
of the ship and finds the switch.

> +---------------------------------------------+
> | Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
> +---------------------------------------------+

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:07:21 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

>
   Hi.
   
> From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
   
   
>>   Economics reflects truth in the same way that Physics, Chemistry, and
>>   other sciences reflect truth.  Obviously, an incorrect economic theory
>>   will not model the truth correctly just as an incorrect physical
>>   theory will not model the truth correctly.
   
> Please do not take this too badly, but I must strenuously disagree,  A
> primary difference between Physics, Chemistry, and other hard sciences, and
> Economics, along with many of the other social sciences is repeatability
> and system independence.  Most of the hard sciences have varying degrees of
> those, while the social sciences have a hard time inducing them.  I draw
> this conclusion after earning two degrees in hard science, and working for
> the last five years for Economists developing Econometric software, so I am
> not arguing from a purely theoretical basis.
   
> Repeatability: 
   [snip] 
   
   Obviously, repeatability is crucial to any scientific enterprise.
   That's why economic theories explaining well repeated data are
   more reliable than those that aren't.  The same holds true for
   Physics theories by the way.
   
> System independence:
   
> The physical universe cannot change behavior according to our current
> theories, while the people who practice and formulate economics can alter
> the behavior of the people they are trying to model.  For instance, recent
   [snip]
   
   All scientists must account for system-dependent variables in their
   theories.  Obviously, this is harder to do in some disciplines than
   others.  Medical research in particular is plagued with this problem,
   at least when it is conducted morally.
   
> I am aware that QM implies a lack of observer independence, but on the
   [snip]
   
   I agree with you that this issue is irrelevant to Economics.
   
> still effective.  For example, if you are measuring the Hall effect, which
> depends on QM, you will get statistically significant experimental results
> which match a colleague with different expectations, even if the data has
> already been published.
   
   This is a different issue.  Observer bias has tainted many
   observations in all fields.  All researchers need to work hard to
   overcome this problem.  A true economist does his best to remain
   disinterested, but this can easily be forgotten by a public whose main
   exposure to economics is via the political ax-grinders on the news
   shows who use statistics to lie.  This is a flaw in the economist, not
   in Economics.
   
>>  Making sure that your
>>   theories are right is what makes science in general so hard, but the
>>   whole idea of all sciences is that they reflect the truth and
>>   (eventually) weed out falsehood.
   
> Clearly, clearly, but it is easier to do this in the physical sciences
> where you system does not adapt to what you do quite so well, and where
> your system can be reset to the initial state so you can look at it in detail.
   
   I certainly agree that some sciences are more difficult than others.
   Economics is certainly not as reliable as Physics.  But the truth that
   both disciplines work at uncovering (with varying success rates) is
   objective.
   
> [accounting conventions mentioned]
   
   [engineering conventions mentioned]
   
> Let me say it another way - an engineering convention, such as the sign on
> the electron's charge, can be accounted for.  Likewise a good physicist can
> get an idea of how well their measurement device works, which falls out of
> those engineering conventions.  The economist, on the other hand, cannot so
> easily separate the behavior of people from the accounting convention that
> engendered the behavior.
   
   I agree that it is harder in Econ than in Phys, but in principle it is
   still possible.
   
   I think our discussion has moved pretty far afield of my original
   intent, and I think part of the problem has been miscommunication
   on my part.  Words like Physics and Economics have two meanings:
   they refer to the field studied and to the study of the field, 
   to the truth and to the discipline of studying the truth.  The
   discipline of Physics is practiced and mispracticed by flawed
   human beings, but the physics studied by Physics is objectively
   real.  I believe the same is true for economics and Economics.
   
   The original poster (Glenn, was that you?) gave me the impression
   that he believed that economics should not be a direct factor 
   in resolving issues of environmental policy.  Now if he meant that
   the biases of Economics as practiced by biased economists should
   not dominate our policy, then I would agree (but I'd still point
   out that not all economists are biased).
   
   
   
> From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
   
>>   as an engineering convention has on Physics.  Economists, like
>>   Physicists, need to take care that their theories remain independent
>>   of such conventions.  The discipline of science is intended to ensure
>>   such independence.
>>   
>>> In the environmental category, mainstream economic decision-making has...
   
>  There may be some difference in what is being addressed here. The modern
> discipline of Economics certainly has as valid a claim to the "status" of
> a science as most of the humanities. OTOH, it is probably a bit more prone
> to normative evaluations than chemistry, for example.
   
   I think you're right on both counts.  I think we have been discussing different
   things to some extent (economics vs. Economics).  And I think that Economics
   is a softer science than Biology or Physics (though not so soft as Sociology).

   -Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2116
***********************************
Traveller-digest    Saturday, November 22 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2117



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

calling paul sanders
Re: Naval Ships and Transponders
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Spark
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2112
Re: Alternate star mapping
re: Sector Data Suggestions
re: CSC for PC's?
Re: Digest Frequency?
Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?
Re: Naval Ships and Transponders
Fusion Energy Research (was Re: environment redux)
Re: Setting up the Archives
Re: Spark
Re: Naval Ships and Transponders
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?
Re: Naval Ships and Transponders
Re: Units of Measure (was Re:  Alternate star mapping)
re: CSC for PC's?
Re: Naval Architect's Manual
Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 16:36:58 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: calling paul sanders

Sorry to bother you all, but...

If Paul's listening could you get in contact with your new postal address?
I've tried your new e-mail but am not certain how reliable it is/was or if
it's still valid.

Cheers

tc

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:01:36 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Naval Ships and Transponders

Tommy Grav wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
> > In my game, you can turn the transponder off.. you have to get the SPA to
> > turn it back on, and there is paperwork involved.  ("So, you were attacked
> > by Vargr corsairs seven weeks ago, and turned the transponder unit to avoid
> > detection.. might I ask why you've waited this long to have it
> > reactivated?")
> 
> But why can't you just put an on/off switch on the cable running from the
> transponder to its antenna. Or something that will fool the transponder
> into thinking that it is sending. That would keep the athourities from
> ever knowing about why you switched it off, unless they do a fine search
> of the ship and finds the switch.

I may be incredibly naive here, but wouldn't installing the switch
necessitate breaking the signal? What if the antenna electronics needed
to respond to the transponder? (two way encrypted) Or even better...
what if the transponder were built into the antenna? (big black box)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:19:37 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

Robert Flammang wrote:
 
>    The original poster (Glenn, was that you?) gave me the impression
>    that he believed that economics should not be a direct factor
>    in resolving issues of environmental policy.  Now if he meant that
>    the biases of Economics as practiced by biased economists should
>    not dominate our policy, then I would agree (but I'd still point
>    out that not all economists are biased).

Yep. Twas me.

I believe that Economics is used, too often, as the *only* factor in
resolving issues of environmental policy. That is wrong.

There are more important factors that should be given more weight.

After all, is Economics not a human construct defining human behaviors
with respect to trade? Economics deals with distribution of wealth
between groups or members of a group. We need to deal with how we
interact with the Environment. Economics has little to do with that.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:13:56 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Spark

>What if a bunch of pirates formed a feudal trchnocracy on a near-C rock and
>held discussions about Heinlein with their Virus-infected lesbian Aslan
>computer which use KB2.0.  They are all armed with pelvic mounted plasma
>guns, and can drop a deer at 2km through dense woods.

Aahhrr! Obey! Whooosh! Troopers! Grrr-click-whirr! (skake, shake, clatter)
46! BLAM! ouch! Oooohr! bang! thump!

Why?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:15:21 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2112

Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
>
> > That may not work very well.  When I asked this individual to please make the
> > pages readable to my browser (he was using tags that my browser doesn't
> > support), he told me that the pages were hand-coded fo rthe highest quality,
> > and tht I should buy a new computer so I could see them properly.  Not
> > exactly a customer-support type-of-guy.
>
> I'd forward that response to someone higher up along with this comment:
>
> "Which would IG rather have me spending money on? A new computer, or
> your games? I can't do both..."
>

The only thing more volitile than the OS wars, it would appear, would be the web
browser wars...  :)

douglas

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:23:28 +0000
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

At 10:32 AM 11/20/97 +0100, you wrote:
>On Wed, 19 Nov 1997, Kenji Schwarz wrote:
>
>> I seem to recall _Vilani and Vargr_ mentioning that Vilani astrography
>> _was_ based on the "deshi" (distance from Vland to Tauri), though.  Is
>> there some way to break sectors or subsectors into reasonably even units= of
>> deshi?
>>=20
>I don=B4t know. Seems we have to take this as =B4coincidence=B4 of the= deshi=20
>being two third of a parsec. (or 3 deshi =3D 2 parsec). Remember the=20
>lightyear, wich in my view still dominates our sight of space, being=20
>3.26uh... parsecs. And there also is the Astronomical Unit AU ...
>
>L.A.
>
	Three point whatever light years per parsec. But, seriously,
	I doubt that the mass of the Sun and the distance of the=20
	Earth from it (the primary determinants of the length of our
	year) significantly affect our view of the Universe.


Tim Connors

Why is it that the day you'ld sell your soul to get something,
	souls are a glut on the market?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 19:02:09 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Sector Data Suggestions

Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu> wrote:

>I am willing to help.  I have some Python scripts that I am using to alter
>the FS data a bit, and it seems quite doable.

Which ones? The Holy Grail? Life of Brian? Flying Circus? Are all those
E000000-0 worlds filled with dead parrots?

.....

Sorry.


Don't know what came over me.

Just one waffer thin one, please.

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:58:42 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: CSC for PC's?

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote:

>Alas, Executor seems to expect you to be running (spit)Win95.  Oh, the
>torment! I, the Gearhead From Heck!  Whose first request after surgery was
>for my calculator and FFS, cause I'd had a neat idea just before being
>sedated, should be cast out of Eden for my choice of OS..

<to help get the traffic up ;-)>

The obvious solution is to change to a PowerMac (preferably with MacOS 8)
and loose all those DOS/Win blues...

With Marathon, Metator and CSC (and eventually FFS2) what more could a
gearhead want? And if you really miss the flashing prompt there are key
presses in MacOS to get one back....

Dom (Engage Jumpdrive and RLF) ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:44:48 -0500
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: Digest Frequency?

At 03:38 PM 11/20/97 -0800, you wrote:
>At 09:50 AM 11/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Ah, what's the frequency Kenneth?
>>
>>Have a bunch of people been booted from the list recently?
>>Digest frequency dropped from 4-6 per day to 1 a day over
>>the last couple of days. 
>>
>>TML is my #1 distraction while at work and I demand more of it!
>
>This should spark discussion:
>
>What if a bunch of pirates formed a feudal trchnocracy on a near-C rock and
>held discussions about Heinlein with their Virus-infected lesbian Aslan
>computer which use KB2.0.  They are all armed with pelvic mounted plasma
>guns, and can drop a deer at 2km through dense woods.
>
	And if they came from a Pop B world that suffered under law level
	E and a Government whose primary debate centered around the 
	discussion of the impossibility of a sentient microchip and the 
	maximum tech level of the Rule of Man, then the list would overload.

	Of course, if you could find a way to include mention of mom,
	truckers, and the railroad, you'ld also have the perfect country
	and western song.
>
>Hope you got a *big* mailbox Ethan!!!  :)
>
>
>+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
>| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
>|     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
>|----------------------------------------|
>| "The best tank terrain is that without |
>|  anti-tank weapons."                   |
>|            -Russian Military Doctrine  |
>+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
>


Tim Connors

Why is it that the day you'ld sell your soul to get something,
	souls are a glut on the market?

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:45:03 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?

Lars Adler wrote:

> On Thu, 20 Nov 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:
>
> > Has anyone come up with a canonical list of all mentioned sectors and their
> > positions?
> >
> Yes, there is a complete list on a webpage on the internet. I'm sorry, I
> do not know the adress at the time, but I included the data to my database.
> Every Sector in an area of 18 * 12 sectors is named! Much of these also
> got their subsector names.
> If no one knows where the website was, I'll search for it - or give my
> copy of the data.
>
> Greetings from L.A.

 I've included what I could find with the 'workbook' version of my sector data
spreadsheet.  I pulled all the sector data from the Alien modules (1-7).

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 11:41:11 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Naval Ships and Transponders

I'm jumping cold, into a hot topic, which is never the smart thing to do...

I've always run transponders as independent devices from the main commo gear.  The
transponder is patched into the main _radio_ antenna for send/receive, but also
has an independant antenna as a backup.  As I run them, they monitor incoming
signals for one of several specific code impulses (we call it 'pinging').  When a
transponder receives one of the codes, it responds in a specific manner, reporting
to the commo console that it is sending information.

Mayday signal (GK) - returns ship name
Ping by commercial ship - returns ship's class and name (configurable by certified
starport technician)
Ping by Patrol ship - returns ship's class and name, as well as the shipid number
(not configurable)

Basically, if you send a mayday - the transponders of all ships receiving that
signal automatically transmit a response.  This helps enforce the Imperial
regulation that ships must respond to maydays.

Any ship can query your transponder for your ship name and class.

Patrol ships and IN ships can query your ship for name, class, and the shipid
number that is unique to each ship when the transponder is installed.

Because of the potential abuse of the transponder (building a missile that 'pings'
the transponder of a target, then uses the transmission to home in on, for
example), the transponder has three states controllable by the command crew.  ON -
automatically receives and replies to pings.  STANDBY - receives but does not
automatically reply to pings, they require the commo officer to manually authorize
the reply, EXCEPT - when the source is IN or SYSDEF using a override code, the
transponder will reply.  SILENT - in this mode, the transponder does not reply to
override signals.  Use of this mode will generally require a detailed explanation
when discovered.  To officials that are not nice people to have to talk to.

All transponder signals, and statuses, are automatically entered in the ship's
log.

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:07:50 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Fusion Energy Research (was Re: environment redux)

>Glenn Crawford wrote:
>>
>> As far as plentiful energy from fusion goes, I don't see it happening. We
>> cannot even get the damn thing working because there is no money in it (lots
>> of money for IC engine research though!)

Picking up in the middle here so...

[Warning: Request for an appeal to your congresscritter follows]

Either you're saying there is no money to be made or that there is no
funding for research...The first is too obviously wrong to spend time on,
so to the second.

The U.S. Department of Energy Office of Fusion Energy budget this year is
$232 Million (source: DOE Home Page) which is, of course, a pittance.  For
comparison, however, solar energy got $269M.  The whole Energy Science and
Research budget is $996M and the entire DOE Budget is $14 Billion.

In terms of probability of result, it is quite likely that we will,
eventually, bring the correct engineering solution to bear on the problem
of how to make fusion energy.  In the near term, however, there is much
more likelyhood of success making the IC engine more efficient.  The
current Best Hope is ITER or the International Thermonuclear Experimental
Reactor, one portion of which is being test-fabricated here at MIT.
Unfortunately fighting for funding with congress for a reactor which will
be sited in another country (especially since Japan is the proposed
location) is definitely an uphill battle.

If you feel so inclined after reading the above, please email or mail or
call your representative to advocate for Fusion Enegry research.  They
really do listen and can really affect the budget in the next year (best
timing is July-August, but anytinme will be helpful).

We science-fiction types know that cheap energy will not solve all the
worlds problems, but I think we also know that it will solve a lot of
problems, and avoid a whole passel of others.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:19:54 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Setting up the Archives

Rob Said;

>Howdy all,
>
>I would like to see an AAB on the Web.

[snip Archive idea]

Rob I think you are close...but not quite on.

Awhile ago (when I had more time) I began a project.  Not an archive in
reality, but an archive of *links*.  I will email you the pretty big
bookmark file I have which represents some portion of the unimaginable
amount of work involved apon request via private email.  As you will see I
only got partway there...and I don't even know how big a part!

The archive subject matter is already out there.  What is needed is a
comprehensive (think about that) "bookmark" page with links to all that
content in an organized, categorized, maybe even searchable form.

My opinion.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 12:50:18 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Spark

>>What if a bunch of pirates formed a feudal trchnocracy on a near-C rock and
>>held discussions about Heinlein with their Virus-infected lesbian Aslan
>>computer which use KB2.0.  They are all armed with pelvic mounted plasma
>>guns, and can drop a deer at 2km through dense woods.
>
>Aahhrr! Obey! Whooosh! Troopers! Grrr-click-whirr! (skake, shake, clatter)
>46! BLAM! ouch! Oooohr! bang! thump!
>
>Why?

Why, indeed?  The Templars would never permit this sort of interefence with
their plans to wipe out the Vilani using common Terran bacteria, backed up
by space fighters (which are an economically rational way to fight
battlecruisers).

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:54:13 +0000
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Naval Ships and Transponders

At 11:41 21/11/97 -0800, douglas wrote:
>Basically, if you send a mayday - the transponders of all ships receiving that
>signal automatically transmit a response.  This helps enforce the Imperial
>regulation that ships must respond to maydays.

	Would the ship's computer then advise the captain with some audible, high
priority  signal that a course change is needed to intercept the ship in
distress? And could a more advanced on board computer system automatically
lay in a course, then wait for the captain to tell helm to make it so, as
it were?
>

	See ya...

Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527
From Barkingside, within the London home county of Essex, E N G L A N D
	Tottenham Hotspur - "Everybody will be singing..."
	Park Lane Stand - Block 44, Row 14, Seat 176
Spurs Ticket Info can be found at - http://web.ftech.net/~legend/fixtures.htm

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:52:13 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

>The "light year" is a reall "iffy" unit. It depends on *two* variables.

Astronomers world-wide would be deeply happy if our distances to any extrasolar
object were dominated in uncertainty by the uncertainty in the unit (length
of the second for lightyears, AU for parsecs.) Even the best interstellar distances
have ~1% errors. 

(Actually, that's an interesting question - how do you measure distance
to a nearby star well enough to astrogate to it? It's probably a 
surprisingly time-consuming process - involving moving all over a nearby
solar system to get good parallax baselines, using a ship with survey sensors - 
and even then you probably get errors at the 20 AU level - first-time
jumps can leave you nearly anywhere.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 21:20:08 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?

Early Draft of the sector names.

	S	T	U	V	W	X	Y	Z	0	1	2	3	4
W					Ghoekhnael								
X					Knoellighz	Dhuerorrg					Trenchans		
Y					Gvurrdon	Tuglikki	Provence	Windhorn	Meshan	Mendan	Amdukan		
Z					Spinward	Deneb	Corridor	Vland	Lishun	Antares	Empty	Star's End	
0	Astron	Fulani	VanguardReaches	Beyond	Trojan	Reft	Gushemege	Dagudashaag	Core	Fornast	Ley	Gateway	
1	ThetaBorealis	Theron	Iphegenaia	Touchstone	Riftspan	Verge	Ilelish	Zarushagar	Masilla	Delphi	Glimmerdrift	Crucis Margin	
2	Khaeaw	Faoheirol'iyhao	Ftaoiyekyu	Afawahisa	Hlakhoi	Ealiyasiyw	Reavers	Daibei	Diaspora	Old Expanses	Hinterworlds	Leonidae	Extolian
3	Hkakaeaw	Easai'yo	Waroatahe	Karleaya	Staihaia'yo	Enelrad	DarkNebula	Magyar	Solomani	Alpha Crucis	Spica		
4	Yahehwe	Kefiykhta	Heakhafaw	Etakhasoa	Aktifao	Uistilao	Ustral	Canopus	Aldeberan	Neworld	Langere		
5	Ohieraoi	Fahreahluis	Hfiywitir	Iflaftalea	Teahloarifu	Ahkiweahi	Banners	Hanstone	Malorn	Hadki	Storr

Marc Miller
		

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:33:57 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Naval Ships and Transponders

Bruce E J Lewis wrote:

> At 11:41 21/11/97 -0800, douglas wrote:
> >Basically, if you send a mayday - the transponders of all ships receiving
> that
> >signal automatically transmit a response.  This helps enforce the Imperial
> >regulation that ships must respond to maydays.
>
>         Would the ship's computer then advise the captain with some audible, high
> priority  signal that a course change is needed to intercept the ship in
> distress? And could a more advanced on board computer system automatically
> lay in a course, then wait for the captain to tell helm to make it so, as
> it were?
> >
>
>         See ya...

Well, if you have your sentient computer standing bridge watches, I see no problem
with that.

Otherwise, it will depend on the ship, the computer, and the standing orders.  If
you are running under autopilot, with the expert program running, and the
SIGKAUTORESP set to AUTO - then I'd say it would also automatically set the course.

Most ships, however, I think would just have a visual/audible alarm sound at the
commo and command workstations.  ;)

douglas

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 18:30:01 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@Alaska.NET>
Subject: Re: Units of Measure (was Re:  Alternate star mapping)

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se> wrote

> Another observation: Isn't it strange that the Vilani uses hours, seconds
> and other time measuring units ? What about the metric system ?
> 
> To make my point clear: The only true reason that Traveller uses these
> normal Solomani units is for simplicity. If it were to be more realistic at
> this, it would be pretty hard to understand many things, like exactly how do
> the Vilani measure weight and length.

The Vilani were beaten by the Solomani.  When they took over the Vilani
Empire they naturallly forced their own units of measure on the Vilani,
as conquerers often do, for their own convenience.  When the Rule of Man
collapsed the Vilani had been using the Solomani units of measurement
for hundreds of years.  Being conservative they did not bother to change
back to the units their ancestors had used for thousands of years prior
to this point.  By the time of the Third Imperium the Vilani units of
measure were totally dead everywhere - except perhaps on Vilani "lost
colonies" never conquered by the Solomani.  Vanegan in the Spinward
Marches may be such a place.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 17:06:59 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: CSC for PC's?

>I've run it using DOS, using Windows 3.1 running in DOS, in a DOS box
>running in OS/2 Warp, and in a DOS box running in Windows 95.  Of course,

Not to speak bad of OS/2, let's not forget that it runs under Linux, and I
believe there is also a version for NextStep/OPENSTEP on Intel.  I was
rather impressed with it a couple of years ago, at the time it could almost
do what I needed to, but I ended up buying a Mac.

As has been pointed out the system requirements for CSC are pretty low.
Just drop in at your local Thift Store every now and then, and you'll
probably be able to find a Mac Plus or Mac SE very cheap (well under $100)
to run it on.  These are a couple of the models based on the original small
footprint, so they won't take up much space.

			Zane

| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                       |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them.    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html            |

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 22:54:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Naval Architect's Manual

Quoth GypsyComet@aol.com:
>   Happily, one of the actual artwork bits shows the cheerfully reckless
> alien from Emperor's Vehicles, making this his third appearance (two in
> EV; one here). Now all we need is a Contact article...

If it's the one I'm thinking about, it's a Denaar, from Aliens Archive.
They have good (if sort of rubber-science) reasons for being "cheerfully
reckless"....  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:11:54 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.

	This was inspired, in no particular order, by the ZF-1 from the
Fifth Element, Starship Troopers (the book; I thought that the MI's weapons
were much cooler than Trav battledress weapons), and the person who taught
Successions in bar school a few weeks ago (my mind got to wandering...).


News Item, Imperial Defense Insider Weekly, IY 15-243

Title: Famille Spofulam Armaments Releases new BattleDress-Weapon,
Integrated Multi-Purpose System (BD-WIMPS).

Author: Zhigupaa Diskuutenshcko

Dateline: Linth, Imperial Weapon Testing Range


	"Famille Spofulam has done it again.  Actually, they haven't.  I
don't think _anyone_ has ever done this before.

	Responding to a percieved (at least by the FSA Design Bureau) gap
in current armament suites available for BattleDressed troops, Famille
Spofulam Armaments has developed what they term the BattleDress-Weapon,
Integrated Multi-Purpose System (abbreviated to BD-WIMPS, or WIMP).  It
permits single-Marine deployment of a high-powered 12mm full-auto chemical
slugthrower, a 33.3mm HE/SEFOP grenade launcher, a backpack napalm
dispenser, a chemical weapon dispening system capable of handling anything
from Blur to advanced neurotoxins...  and a 0.1 kiloton rocket-propelled
fission warhead.

	The weapon has two major components, which together total 109.5
kilograms fully loaded.  These consist of a backpack, which integrates a
cassette holding 500 12mm X 70 mm rounds for the rifle (which is more
accurately described as a heavy machinegun), and 15-kg tanks for both the
Napalm and chemical weapon dispensers.  Aside from carrying ammo, the
backpack component also includes a robotic arm designed to grasp and
retract the rifle component upon the operator's handing it back over their
right shoulder, and to deploy it into the operator's hands when needed.

	The rifle component itself is an extremely large (116 cm overall)
and bulky bullpup-configured weapon, with the pump-action grenade launcher
slung under the barrel, and the compressors and nozzles for the
flamethrower to either side of the grenade launcher.  The PAWS-12
electronic sighting system is mounted on a flange extending diagonally
outwards and to the left of the weapon, to allow room on the top of the
rifle component for the Nuke Bazooka launcher package, a disposable
packaged 0.1 kiloton rocket-propelled tactical nuke coming in a 77 cm by 20
cm 22.5 kilogram cylindrical package.  The disposable launcher package
simply dovetails into a mount on top of the rifle component, and accesses
data from the PAWS-12.

	At a price of 50,000 cr, not including the Nuke Bazooka package
which [classified], the BD-WIMPS is approximately double the price of a
PCMP-12.  However, unlike the PCMP-12, it permits the operator to deploy
non-lethal incapacitants as well as more lethal chemical agents, does not
present a massive EMS signature when fired, draws no power from the
BattleDress suit's onboard power plant, and provides superior
armour-penetration capability, not to mention the extreme destructive
potential of a nuclear warhead.  Thus, according to FSA, it provides
longer-term field operation, greater stealth, and better operational
flexibility than a PCMP.

	At FSA's launch of the BD-WIMPS at the Linth Imperial Weapon
Testing Range (which was slightly marred by their caterers being denied
security clearance at the last moment), the weapon was demonstrated by one
Winiipitaa Spofulam, a great-niece of FS head Hengabar Spofulam.  As Mr.
Spofulam provided running commentary, the winsome Miss Spofulam
demonstrated impressive BattleDress ability for someone of such tender
years as she demolished a series of targets over an obstacle course at the
IWTR.

	The weapon performed much as advertised; the rifle component can
neutralize targets wearing ABD-12, not to mention unarmoured personnel.
The HE grenade rounds provide respectable blast radius, and the SEFOP
rounds are devastating against vehicular targets (let alone armoured
troops; the sound of girlish laughter as a BattleDressed target had a
30-cm-plus hole blown through its breastplate and out its back was
chilling).  The napalm dispenser provides adequate short-range incendiary
capability.  As the reviews stands were not sealed against chemical agents,
Winnie (as Mr. Spofulam affectionately referred to her) did not have the
opportunity to spray nerve gas everywhere with gay abandon.  Fortunately,
neither did she have the chance to demonstrate the effects of a live
nuclear warhead, although the dummy round she fired did impact the non-LOS
target with impressive accuracy.

	Given FSA's cheerful disregard of the lack of any Imperial RFP's in
developing the BD-WIMPS, it is uncertain whether Imperial forces will adopt
the system.  However, given Famille Spofulam's indiscriminate marketing
practices, it is entirely probable that BD-WIMPS will find their way onto a
battlefield at some point...



BD-WIMPS (BattleDress Weapon, Integrated Multi-Purpose System)

Length:					116 cm
Bulk:					7.7
Unloaded Mass (weapon component):	18 kg unloaded (w/o Nuke)
Unloaded Mass (backpack):		12 kg
Loaded mass (weapon component):		42.51 kg (w/Nuke)
Loaded mass (backpack):			67 kg
Price:					50,000 cr

Reload Prices:
Rifle:					1190 cr (500-round cassette)
					130 cr (50-round box)
GL:					240 cr (7-grenade tube)
Nuke Bazooka Round:			1,001,000 cr (1-rocket package
launcher)
Napalm tank:				60 cr (10-shot backpack tank)
Chem tank:				150 cr (10-shot backpack tank)

Reload Masses:
Rifle:					32 kg (500-round cassette)
					3.96 kg (50-round box)
GL:					2.09 kg (7-round tube mag)
Napalm dispenser:			14 kg (backpack tank)
Chem dispenser:				14 kg (backpack tank)

Basic Ranges:
Rifle:					134.5 m (Medium)
Grenade:				206 m (Long, Extremely Long with
					indirect fire)
Napalm dispenser:			Contact
Chem dispenser:				Contact
Nuke Bazooka:				Medium (Subregional max range)

Damages:

Rifle (slug):				9
Rifle (HE/HEAP):			9.65
Grenade (HE):				7 (4 explosive), burst radius 11.6 m
Grenade (SEFOP):			57 (2 explosive), burst radius 8.25
Napalm dispenser:			As per Flamethrower-5
Chem dispenser:				As per chemical agent used
Nuke Bazooka:				200 pen/31 USP
		Crater:			25 m
		Induced rad: 		30 m
		Destruction blast radius:30/50 m (ground/airburst)
		Primary blast radius:	100/150 m
		Secondary blast radius:	200/300 m

Recoils:

Rifle:					1.136/1.704/5.68
GL:					2.4

Description:
Rifle:
	Round:		12mm X 70 mm Caseless Spofulam WIMPS
	Barrel: 	65 cm TL-12 advanced materials heavy rifled,
			TL-9 long flash hider/muzzle brake
	Reciever: 	TL-12 light AB, TL-12 Electronic sight,
			bullpup, Hollow pistol grip, TL-10 Gyroscopic
			compensator
	Feed: 		500 round cassette/50-round box

Grenade launcher:

	Round: 		33.3 mm (3.33 cm) low-velocity propelled (HE or SEFOP)
	Barrel: 	70 cmTL-12 advanced materials smoothbore, long
			muzzle brake
	Reciever: 	TL-12 advanced materials pump
	Feed:		tubular magazine, 7 rounds, TL-12 advanced materials

Nuke Bazooka Package Launcher:

	Warhead: 	0.1 kt fission nuke, Target seeker guidance
	Missile: 	TL-8 9cm X 55cm Solid Fuel, 13.8 km max range,
			1000kph max speed, 55 seconds duration
	Length: 	77 cm
	Diameter:	20 cm
	Volume:		2390 cm^3
	Mass (total):	22.5 kg


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2117
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Sunday, November 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2118



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: CSC for PC's?
Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?
Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.
Re: Alternate star mapping
Parsec, Light Year etc
Re: CSC for PC's?
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Re: Messing with the UWP
Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Is something wrong?
Pinkerton Armoured Car (TL5)
Remember Ken Whitman?
Ralston Cargo Lifter (TL11)
Mons Andrei Cargo Lifter (TL11)
Black globe gun?
Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.
Re: Injury
Re: CSC for PC's?
re: Injury
Re: Injury
Re: Naval Architects Handbook
re: CSC for PC's?
Re: Injury

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 97 00:30:03 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: re: CSC for PC's?

On 11/21/97 at 05:06 PM,  "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com> said:

>>I've run it using DOS, using Windows 3.1 running in DOS, in a DOS box
>>running in OS/2 Warp, and in a DOS box running in Windows 95.  Of course,

>Not to speak bad of OS/2, let's not forget that it runs under Linux, and I
>believe there is also a version for NextStep/OPENSTEP on Intel. 

Zane, not to speak ill of *any* operating system, but I haven't tried it
under Linux or NextStep, so I couldn't comment on them. I only commented on
the systems I'd tried it in, and only so that I could point out that it
should run on the hardware/system that Doug was discussing.

>As has been pointed out the system requirements for CSC are pretty low.
>Just drop in at your local Thift Store every now and then, and you'll
>probably be able to find a Mac Plus or Mac SE very cheap (well under $100)
>to run it on.  These are a couple of the models based on the original
>small footprint, so they won't take up much space.

Maybe were you live, but I haven't run across any working Mac of *any*
model for under $500 where I live...and that's more than I want to pay.  

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:23:05 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?

- -----Original Message-----
From: CardSharks@aol.com <CardSharks@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Friday, November 21, 1997 10:39 PM
Subject: Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?


>Early Draft of the sector names.
>
<Snip>
>
>Marc Miller
>
>

I have combined the information in Marc's post with what I could gather from
GDW's Alien Modules and have placed the sectors an Excell 5.0 sheet, layed
out in map fasion. I've also, in a fit of inspiration (or something ;>)
color coded the sectors and added the Aslan names to the sectors bordering
Aslan space (as shown in AM 1). It does NOT include the Zhodani data since I
do not have that book. If anyone is interested send me private mail and I
will send it in ZIP format. It does not include Zhodani information since I
don't own that book, if anyone adds it I would appriciate a copy!

Thanks

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 04:43:26 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.

- -----Original Message-----
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Saturday, November 22, 1997 1:48 AM
Subject: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.


>
>
> This was inspired, in no particular order, by the ZF-1 from the
>Fifth Element, Starship Troopers (the book; I thought that the MI's weapons
>were much cooler than Trav battledress weapons), and the person who taught
>Successions in bar school a few weeks ago (my mind got to wandering...).
>
>
>News Item, Imperial Defense Insider Weekly, IY 15-243
>
>Title: Famille Spofulam Armaments Releases new BattleDress-Weapon,
>Integrated Multi-Purpose System (BD-WIMPS).
>
>Author: Zhigupaa Diskuutenshcko
>
>Dateline: Linth, Imperial Weapon Testing Range
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
>

Roderick,

The FSA posts are probably one of the highlights of the List. All we need
now is to see them compiled into their own book, suggested title "What I Did
On My Summer Vacation, and Other Pleasant Diversions"! Keep them up, please!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:31:16 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

>(Actually, that's an interesting question - how do you measure distance
>to a nearby star well enough to astrogate to it? It's probably a=20
>surprisingly time-consuming process - involving moving all over a nearby
>solar system to get good parallax baselines, using a ship with survey
sensors -=20
>and even then you probably get errors at the 20 AU level - first-time
>jumps can leave you nearly anywhere.)

I have always had the opinion that a jumping ship emerges pretty close to
anywhere in the target system, to reflect this uncertanity. In effect, the
exit point is random, although safety functions prevents the shipfrom
emerging in a gravity well (i.e. inside or very near a planet).

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:39:25 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Parsec, Light Year etc

>The "light year" is a reall "iffy" unit. It depends on *two* variables.

No. It is really easy, a light year is everything you wanted in a regular
year, only less.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:26:14 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: CSC for PC's?

I am writing a Win 3.1 / Win 95 version of CSC during my lunch breaks 
(sad, but true) ... it was due to be completed by now, but work has 
been busy and trips out of the office have slowed down the completion 
of CSC.

One day ...

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:26:04 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

>    Environmentalism has made more headway in Europe than in the US?  Do
>    you know something I don't?

I have e-mailed you privately.  In summary, the USA is a victim of its 
own success ... by being the richest nation on earth you inevitably, 
under the current technology, create the most waste, the most CO2 
emissions and are thus ultimately responsible for the most environmental 
damage to the world (those stip mines have to be somewhere!).



Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:25:59 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Messing with the UWP

> Is it useful to include X-boat route information in the
> UWP line?  Might Regina's UWP look like this:
>  
> Regina        1910 A788899-C  A Ri Cp              703 Im F7 V M8 D M6 V 
(1810,1912,2007)


Galactic 2.2 and 2.3 (for DOS) include jump route data, but I do not recall what 
format is used to store this data in the sub-sector files.  One of the problems 
is using a notation that shows that the jump route is into an adjacent sector.


> Regina        1910 A788899-C  A Ri Cp              703 Im(Extolay,Roup,Dinomn) 
: F7V M8D ppG(pp)p(p)G(pApNpApLM*) : M6V pp(ssp)G(spppppM)


I like this idea ... it gives a simple way to encode extended system data


> A possibly wonderful way to encode/store/make available (previously
> ungenerated) system data via computer is:

I, and doubtless others, have proposed that we come up with a "TML approved" 
algorithm for creating and using random seeds ... I started a 10-message 
discussion on the TML about the use of consistent system generation algorithms 
earlier in the year.  I proposed an algoritm based on UWP and hex (as not all 
planets are named, and home-grown universes with some previous sectors in might 
not use a compatible sector numbering system) for creating the seed.  The random 
number method in the Traveller Tools Group was one option, but other 
(unspecified) random number algorithms are reputedly better.


Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 16:26:00 GMT
From: Simon Early <sre@taz.compulink.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Environmentalism (was Re: Crimes)

> Which is economically more efficient: Mining aluminum from bauxite or
> recycling an aluminum can? The answer is recycling. Same could be said
> for a host of other products: paper, glass, tin.

If you compare the dollar costs, then recycling an aluminium can is more 
expensive than making a new one for virtually every industrialised 
country... some of the "greener" european nations offer a tax benefit 
for recycling plants to make it worth their while to recycle aluminium 
and tin.  This is also true for glass bottles (nearly all of which were 
recycled in the UK 25 years ago ... my pocket money would often be 
supplemented by getting a penny back on each bottle returned to the 
shops).  These days, even allowing for bottle banks (a salve to the 
green movement in my opinion), bottles and jars typically only contain 
10% recycled glass because of quality concerns (a high recycled content 
gives a weaker container).  Many products in UK supermarkets are more 
expensive and of poorer quality if they use recycled parts (black bin 
liners, toilet paper, writing paper).

I don't want to get onto a green campaigning box here, but recycling is 
expensive - particularly the manpower intensive sorting required for 
some types of recycled matrial.  By keeping raw materials cheap from 
third world countries (GATT benefits the industrialised natons much more 
than the developing world), the industrial nations can maintain their 
relative wealth.

Traveller:  cost-efficient open cast mining of lo-pop worlds is a huge 
source of raw materials for interstellar trade.  Hi-pop planets do not 
want those unsightly, polluting mining operations on their world.  
Besides, do you realise how much more it costs to pay a miner on a 
starport A, TL E world, compared to that port D, TL 8 mining colony over 
there?

Simon

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:51:02 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Lars Adler wrote:

> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Erwin Fritz wrote:
> > Alan Rickman is, arguably, the greatest villain since Vader.
> 
> I agree with that if you mean Gruber in "Die Hard".
> His Sheriff of Nottingham performance was a little poor, IMHO.

Come now..."Cancel Christmas!" has _got_ to be one of the greatest cheesy
villain lines in the history of film!

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:33:22 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Is something wrong?

This is just to check and see if the list is down! I don't seem to have
recieved ANY messages from it today. If anyone sees this please let me know.

Thanks
Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1997 00:46:36 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Pinkerton Armoured Car (TL5)

Pinkerton Armoured Car (TL5)
Designed by Robert Prior

Summary:
     2.00 displacement ton box;  20.3 tonnes;  kCr 203
Chassis:
     28.0 kL box (4.7 m long x 2.4 m wide x 2.4 m high);  Structure: 713 kg
of hard steel, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.30 cm thick, 4 armour rating
     
Performance:
     1.50 MW TL4 Internal Combustion power plant;  Fuel: 1.50 kL of
hydrocarbons (1.50 tonnes), 10 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 1.50 MW wheels with bulletproof tires; 
Maximum Speed: 90 km/h; 
Range: 897 km;  Agility: +3DM (0.1G)
Crew & Passengers:
     Crew roster: driver;  1 crew station;  1 cramped passenger seat
Communications:
     Subregional Radio (1 W, TL5, SmVcl)
Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     15.3 kL of cargo space

Whenever valuable goods must be transported, there are those who would steal
them. Thieves stand no chance against the Pinkerton armoured car. 3mm hard
steel armour and bulletprrof tires foil any attempt to open the truck, while
the standard-issue radio allows the guard to call for assistance in the
unlikely event that the assailants set up a roadblock.


Designed with CSC (software Copyright Robert Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 21:13:56 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Remember Ken Whitman?

Ken Whitman, scourge of STARSHIPS fame and topic of long-ago UseNet
flamewars, shows up in this month's RPG-Net online magazine, with an
autobiographical essay containing a few sour grapes aimed at IG.  See: 

	http://www.rpg.net/news+reviews/columns/ken.html

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1997 00:48:26 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Ralston Cargo Lifter (TL11)

Ralston Cargo Lifter (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

This vehicle was designed using the rules in the Central Supply Catalog, with
the following variations: realistic unloaded speed, realistic stress.

Summary:
     1.20 displacement ton open frame;  8.44 tonnes;  Cr 6956
Chassis:
     16.8 kL open frame (11 m long x 1.6 m wide x 1.6 m high);  
     Structure: 422 kg of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick,
1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     95.0 kW TL11 fusion plus generator; Fuel: 3.75 L of enriched water (3.75
kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 95.0 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
     Maximum Speed: 20 km/h loaded, 230 km/h unloaded; 
     Range: 2025 km loaded, 22993 km unloaded; Agility: +2DM (0.8G); 
     
Crew:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station
Communications:
     Subregional Radio (1 W, TL11, SmVcl);  Range: 10 km

Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     14.0 kL of modular cargo space (7.70 tonnes)

Spaceports need a simple means of shifting standardized cargo containers. The
Ralston cargo lifter is designed to shift standard one ton cargo containers
from place to place within the starport. It is an open framework of
structurecomp with a small power plant, some contragrav lifters, an operator
station, and cargo grapples. 


(Designed with Infini-V: Traveller's Vehicle Design Studio. Copyright Robert
Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1997 00:47:29 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Mons Andrei Cargo Lifter (TL11)

Mons Andrei Cargo Lifter (TL11)
Designed by Robert Prior

This vehicle was designed using the rules in the Central Supply Catalog, with
the following variations: realistic unloaded speed, realistic stress.

Summary:
     4.60 displacement ton open frame;  32.8 tonnes;  kCr 19.4
Chassis:
     64.4 kL open frame (17 m long x 2.5 m wide x 2.5 m high);  
Structure: 1.04 tonnes of structurecomp, rated for 1.0Gs, body 0.04 cm thick,
1 armour rating
     
Performance:
     400 kW TL11 fusion plus generator; Fuel: 15.8 L of enriched water (15.8
kg), 100 hours supply
     Propulsion System: 400 kW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power; 
Maximum Speed: 22 km/h loaded, 353 km/h unloaded; 
Range: 2192 km loaded, 35234 km unloaded; Agility: +2DM (0.8G); 
     
Crew:
     Crew roster: pilot;  1 crew station
Communications:
     Subregional Radio (1 W, TL11, SmVcl);  Range: 10 km

Sensors:
     No sensors installed.
Other:
     56.0 kL of modular cargo space (30.8 tonnes)

Spaceports need a simple means of shifting standardized cargo containers. The
Mons Andrei cargo lifter is designed to shift standard four ton cargo
containers from place to place within the starport. It is an open framework
of structurecomp with a small power plant, some contragrav lifters, an
operator station, and cargo grapples. 


(Designed with Infini-V: Traveller's Vehicle Design Studio. Copyright Robert
Prior, 1997)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:33:00 -0800
From: Giovanni <giovanni@bellatlantic.net>
Subject: Black globe gun?

Does any one on the list have any info on the black globe gun?  I
thought I remembered hearing something about this weapon years ago, but
the info was very fuzzy.  All I do remember is that they were used for
chewing up planets.  I was recently designing a large(understatement of
the week) ship and simply couldn't build a big enough spinal mount to
put in it.  I'd remembered hearing about these a while back, but I
wasn't sure if they were canon or from another sci-fi source and I was
unable to find any design sequences either.  I would like to stress that
I am talking about a weapon here and I am not confusing it with the the
black globe force feild.  Any info (especially design specs, et cetera)
would be helpfull.

Thanx in advance.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:40:19 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.

Roderick wrote:

>Title: Famille Spofulam Armaments Releases new BattleDress-Weapon,
>Integrated Multi-Purpose System (BD-WIMPS).
[snip]
>        Responding to a percieved (at least by the FSA Design Bureau) gap
>in current armament suites available for BattleDressed troops, Famille
>Spofulam Armaments has developed what they term the BattleDress-Weapon,
>Integrated Multi-Purpose System (abbreviated to BD-WIMPS, or WIMP).  It
>permits single-Marine deployment of a high-powered 12mm full-auto chemical
>slugthrower, a 33.3mm HE/SEFOP grenade launcher, a backpack napalm
>dispenser, a chemical weapon dispening system capable of handling anything
>from Blur to advanced neurotoxins...  and a 0.1 kiloton rocket-propelled
>fission warhead.
[snip]
>        Given FSA's cheerful disregard of the lack of any Imperial RFP's in
>developing the BD-WIMPS, it is uncertain whether Imperial forces will adopt
>the system.  However, given Famille Spofulam's indiscriminate marketing
>practices, it is entirely probable that BD-WIMPS will find their way onto a
>battlefield at some point...

.... and, in fact, immediately after the demonstration, Ms. Tunngardaya of
the Number Fifteen Xenopolitical Investigative Embassy was heard to extend
an invitation to Winiipitaa -- and her great-uncle, of course -- to visit
the Sayat Concourse.  In order to demonstrate the efficacy of the BD-WIMPS,
that is.  Meanwhile, other members of #15 sacrificed several hapless small
animals at Hengabar Spofulam's feet and attempted to paint "lucky symbols"
onto his person using the fresh blood.

Imperial military police are presently investigating the question of how
the animals were smuggled onto the testing grounds.

[Seriously, FS and its output are the coolest.  Is there an archive of FS
material anywhere?  There should be!]

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:06:41 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Injury

At 06:17 pm 11/19/97 PST, you wrote:
>
>EMP induces strong currents in any "long" conductors. The voltage is
>proportional to the length of the conductor, and the strength of the
>pulse. So effects can include things like zapping anybody who happens
>to be in contact with a conductor (like a fence) will get electrical
>damage. With a strong pulse, I'd hate to have any metal pins or plates
>in my body.

	Hmmm ... does the Imperium still use titanium pins or screws to
hold things like jaws together? I think I'd hate to get hit by an
EMP and have arcs jump from one side of my face to the other ...
although I'm sure it would look cool to anybody standing around
me.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 20:48:03 +0100 (MET)
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: CSC for PC's?

At 16:26 1997-11-22 GMT, Simon wrote:
>I am writing a Win 3.1 / Win 95 version of CSC during my lunch breaks=20
>(sad, but true) ... it was due to be completed by now, but work has=20
>been busy and trips out of the office have slowed down the completion=20
>of CSC.
>
>One day ...

I'll be waiting ...

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:10:22 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Injury

At 09:04 am 11/20/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>Blast	Overpressure	Hits	Armor.	Explosion.
>
>This is also a nuclear effect.... (a blast wave travels behind the emp and
>flash in an atmosphere - See Terminator 2 for an interesting demo of a
>nucler blast).

	Not just nuclear--Fuel-Air Explosives (FAEs) are often referred
to as a "poor man's nuke" simply because the shock front produced
approaches that of a small tacnuke.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:07:54 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Injury

At 06:17 pm 11/19/97 PST, you wrote:
>Low frequency sound can do nasties to you also. And it *can't* be
>shielded. Which is why it hasn't been used as a weapon. So far nobody
>has figured out how to use it without nailing themselves as well as the
>enemy.

	I recall Heinlein used infrasonics to induce feelings of unease
in the invaders in one of his old, old books, but I'd never heard
of any other effects. Got any more detailed information (I may
want to build a small sonic obliterator to use on certain people
at work ...).
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:24:22 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Naval Architects Handbook

At 06:01 pm 11/20/97 -0800, you wrote:
>I wonder if there's any chance of IG making the deckplan pieces available
>in drawing-program format on a CD-ROM?

	I wonder if there's any chance of people on the net making
available their favorite deckplan pieces in drawing-program
format for my website? Then it'd be free ...

	I did start a section for exactly that back before I started
having my problems, and I've got several of my own posted there.
If anybody wants to email me theirs, I'll give them priority for
getting posted (FrontPage98, aside from its glaring flaws, is
easing my webmaster crunch considerably. Now if I can get my ISP
to quit bitching about my already being 2meg over my 8meg limit
.... they don't know I've got another 3plus megs to go!)

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:11:22 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: re: CSC for PC's?

>>Not to speak bad of OS/2, let's not forget that it runs under Linux, and I
>>believe there is also a version for NextStep/OPENSTEP on Intel.

I came across rather rude there, sorry about that.  I've worked far to many
hours this week.

>Maybe were you live, but I haven't run across any working Mac of *any*
>model for under $500 where I live...and that's more than I want to pay.

A while back I was looking for a Hard Drive for a Mac Plus, just a small
external one.  I finding one on the net, it ended up being cheaper to by a
complete system, it cost $50.  Every now and then you can find really cheap
Macs on the Net.

I'm pointing this out, because I'm not sure what Executer currently costs,
but last I checked it was between $100-200.  If space isn't an issue the
real thing can be cheaper, and run a greater range of software.  Although
if the system you're running Executor on if a Pentium or better, Executor
almost guarented to be faster than any Mac you'll find in that price range.


			Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                       |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them.    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html            |

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:17:29 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Injury

At 10:24 am 11/20/97 -0500, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-11-20 07:17:41 EST, you write:
>
><< Looks interesting - I hope that you don't change that T4 combat system too
> much (especially with the EA bits linked in) as it was one of the parts of
> the system that really stood out for me (fast and deadly). Also, I could
> use autofire very quickly and understood it the first time that I read it
> (unlike MT and TNE)!
>>>
>
>The problem is that th rules don't currently address what
happens if you get
>hit by a truck, or caught in an explosion, or (etc). Hits along
just doesn't
>give enough information.

	Another problem with the rules manifested itself when we were
working FF&S2--there's no distinction between the ability of a
weapon to do damage, and the ability to penetrate armor. And they
are different. TO do damage, you want to deposit as much energy
as you can in the "vital" portions of the target. But to
penetrate, you want to lose as _little_ energy as possible in the
armor or outer portions of the target. So a weapon that
penetrates really well may go straight through that Imperial
Stormtrooper coming at you, leaving only a small hole. But a
weapon that only does high damage but doesn't penetrate well
might only knock him down without going through his armor.

	One example of this is the problem with the original CSC
damage/armor relationship. It resulted in a 250kg HE bomb being
able to penetrate almost a quarter of a kilometer of solid stone.
Now, an HE bomb does quite a bit of damage, but it won't
penetrate solid stone THAT well. Instead, it'll make a crater a
meter or two across.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2118
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Sunday, November 23 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2119



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

TML C&W song...
re: Naval Ships and Transponders
using sensors for survey or science
Ship Statistics
Word Generators
Re: Spark
Copyright messages
Re: CSC for PC's?
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Copyright messages
Re: Word Generators
Re: Injury
Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.
JTAS
Re: Copyright messages
Web Site down ...
Re: Copyright messages
Re: using sensors for survey or science
Web Site down ...
Re: Black globe gun?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:21:44 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: TML C&W song...

Tim Connors wrote:

>>
>>This should spark discussion:
>>
>>What if a bunch of pirates formed a feudal trchnocracy on a near-C rock and
>>held discussions about Heinlein with their Virus-infected lesbian Aslan
>>computer which use KB2.0.  They are all armed with pelvic mounted plasma
>>guns, and can drop a deer at 2km through dense woods.
>>
>	And if they came from a Pop B world that suffered under law level
>	E and a Government whose primary debate centered around the
>	discussion of the impossibility of a sentient microchip and the
>	maximum tech level of the Rule of Man, then the list would overload.
>
>	Of course, if you could find a way to include mention of mom,
>	truckers, and the railroad, you'ld also have the perfect country
>	and western song.
>>


	Ahem...


	Brace yourselves.  This is not pretty.  There is a reason why I
only have a day job.

	I will not be held responsible for any damage to your sanity or
musical sensibilities


THE ULTIMATE TML COUNTRY & WESTERN SONG: LIFE AT POINT ONE CEE


	Them faceless bureaucrats done confiscated mah truck,
And arrested Ma and billed me for costs
	Since I ain't got not vote, I'm pretty well stuck
And the Proctors done told me "GET LOST!"

	Oh life at point one Cee ain't no fun
All the good ol boys here got but one eye
	And since the Law Level's E I ain't got a gun
They done took mah cargo and left me to die

	But the worst is that perverted compuuuter
It rolls too many dice to be easily read
	It killed Jim-Bob with a roto-roooter
And it yowls about duty 'till I'm sore in the head

	Oh life at point one Cee ain't no fun
All the good ol boys got too many tattoos
	And since the Law Level's E I ain't got a gun
They done took all mah clothes but my shoes

	The other day I went huntin' with my PMPP
When two klicks away I saw my first doe
	Thanks to the recoil I can now sing High C
But boy, away that deer did I blow!

	Oh life at point one Cee ain't no fun
All the good ol boys got gears in their heads
	Said I "sentient 'puters can be done"
They done flamed me and left me for dead

	One dark day along came JP and Leroy
They said "TL-Fifteen Rule of Man"
	This started a feud like Hatfield & McCoy
With the Berrys and Harold and Ethan*

	Oh life at point one Cee ain't no fun
All the good ol boys here got but one eye
	And since the Law Level's E I ain't got a gun
They done took mah cargo and left me to die


*I'm not sure whether Ethan was actually involved, but his name was the
only one that comes close to rhyming.


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:43:17 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Naval Ships and Transponders

At 04:10 pm 11/21/97 +0100, you wrote:
 
>> In my game, you can turn the transponder off.. you have to get
the SPA to
>> turn it back on, and there is paperwork involved.  ("So, you
were attacked
>> by Vargr corsairs seven weeks ago, and turned the transponder
unit to avoid
>> detection.. might I ask why you've waited this long to have it
>> reactivated?")
>
>But why can't you just put an on/off switch on the cable running
from the
>transponder to its antenna. Or something that will fool the
transponder
>into thinking that it is sending. That would keep the
athourities from

	It's a fairly simple matter to sense a break in a circuit, such
as a simple switch causes. In fact, although I'm no expert, I
understand it's possible to determine exactly *where* the break
is. So the transponder package would *know* its connection to the
antenna has been cut off. Higher electronic wizardy should  be
able to patch in a precisely-matched dummy circuit to "look" like
an antenna to the transponder, electronically, but the cutover
between the real antenna and the "stealth" circuit might still be
detectable.

	For that matter, it's probably more foolproof than simply a
black box, connected by coax to a whip antenna on the hull. Off
the top of my head, I'd probably have the "transponder box" deep
within the ship for protection, connected to "antenna boxes"
spaced properly around the hull for full 360 degree coverage, and
an encrypted two-way link going on between them. All boxes would
be sealed against tampering, and if the transponder box loses
contact with even one of the antenna boxes, it'd set a flag. 

	You can still *tell* the transponder to stop sending, and that'd
set a different kind of flag. After all, there are legitimate
reasons you'd want to go through the proper procedure to stop
your transponder signal. There aren't legitimate reasons you'd
want to tamper with it to stop it.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 19:11:29 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: using sensors for survey or science

Sensors can be used for more than just shooting at people; this article
describes various scientific and survey uses a sensor can be put to.

1. Detecting gas giant planets

	PEMS sensors are capable of detecting gas-giant planets
orbiting stars at a significant distance. The chart below is for a "typical"
gas giant:

Sensor Sensivitity	Maximum Range (parsecs)
13			2
13.5			20 
14			200
14.5			500
15.0+			1000

Detecting such a planet is a Difficult task, modified by -1 DM if the range
is <1/10 of the sensor's maximum range, -1 DM if the range is < 1/100.
If the sensor is not science-grade, the task is +2 DM more difficult.
The task is also optionally modified by the stellar type, location of the
gas giant, and the gas giant size. If the sum of all modifiers results
in a task more difficult than "Impossible" it may not be attempted.


Range < 1/10 of maximum -1 DM
Range < 1/100 of max	-2 DM
Science sensor		0 DM
non-science sensor	+2 DM

star	O-A		-1 DM
	F-G		0
	K-M		+1 DM

GG orbit inner zone	+3 DM
	 habitable zone +1 DM
	 outer zone	0 DM

GG size small		+1 DM
	large		0 DM
	brown dwarf	-1 DM

Scanning typically requires 1 day. If only 1 hour is available, the task
is +1 DM more difficult. If 1 month is available, the task is -1 DM easier.
Multiple attempts to detect the same gas giant by a given ship are not
allowed.

The referee should roll this task in secret. In addition the refere should
roll 1d6 for each gas giant; if the result is a "1", the gas giant is
undetectable at this time. Successful detection provides the gas giant's
orbital separation and approximate mass. On a spectactular failure, the
sensor operator detects a gas giant that is not actually present.



2. Detecting normal planets

A similar process can be used to detect earthlike planets, though of course
the maximum range is shorter:

13.5			1 
14			5
14.5			25
15+			50

Detecting a planet is a Staggering task.

Range < 1/10 of maximum -1 DM
Science sensor		0 DM
non-science sensor	+3 DM

star	O-A		-1 DM
	F-G		0
	K-M		+1 DM

GG orbit inner zone	+2 DM
	 habitable zone +0 DM
	 outer zone	+0 DM

Planet size 0		+2 DM
	    1-4	        +1 DM
	    5-9		0 DM
	    A		-1 DM
	 asteroid belt  0 DM

The referee should roll this task in secret. In addition the refere should
roll 1d6 for each planet; if the result is a "1", the planet is
undetectable at this time.
Successful detection determines the planets radius and orbit. Once the planet
has been detected a second attempt may be made to study it; this requires
an additional day and is a Formidable task with all the modifiers given
above. Success informs the sensor operator of the planet's atmosphere type
and hydrographic percentage. Staggering success informs the operator of the
presence of life (if any) and of a technological civilization (population 7+
TL 7+) if any.


3. Surveying a system.

Inside a system, any starship sensor of sensitivity > 12 will detect all
planets within the system in one turn (1/2 hour) of scanning. 

A sensor can scan a planet for detailed information out to a range given
by the sensor's sensitivity +2. 
Determining the atmosphere and hydrographic percentage is an Average task
(Difficult with a non-science sensor) Determining the presence of 
widespread life (such as on Earth) is also an Average task. 

In orbit around a planet, conducting a detailed biological or mineralogical 
survey requires twelve hours per hex surveyed. Accurately determining the 
presence of sparese life in a hex (such as would be found on Earth in a 
desert or the Arctic) is a Formidable task. Detecting extremely sparse/
subsurface life (such as may exist on Mars) requires is an Impossible
task with a sensor of sensitivity 13-14, a Staggering task with a sensor
of higher sensitivity. Detecting surface mineral deposits is a Average
task. A quick survey - 1 hour per hex - increases the
difficulty of these tasks by +1 DM. Using a non-science sensor increases
the difficulty by 2.  The survey task assumes both a PEMS and an AEMS or 
LIDAR are present; if only an AEMS is used increase difficulty by +2 DM,
if only PEMS is used increase difficulty by +1 DM.
The sensor resolution (from the chart in FFS2) gives an 
idea of the typical feature size that can be seen - for example, a 14.0
sensor can see details as fine as 1m from a high (50,000km) surveying orbit
and 0.01m from a 500km orbit.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:40:45 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Ship Statistics

Is there a Web site which lists the statistics of "canon" ship types?  I'm
looking for the sort of thing that might have been in "High Guard" or "Book
Nine:Starships".  I do not have access to these books.  

I have T4's "Starships" and Brilliant Lances, but neither lists the stats
for truly large ships.  I'm looking for warships, here.

Thanks,

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:41:36 +0000
From: Rob Day <rob@glisten.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Word Generators

Hi all

I'm almost certain that something like this has been done before, but
I've created 3 web based word generators for Vargr, Vilani and Zhodani.
They are written in HTML/Javascript, and so should work in any
compatible browser (only tested on IE3 and IE4 on a PC so far).
They can be found at the following URL :

http://www.glisten.demon.co.uk/traveller.htm

The best thing about them is the size, the Vilani one is only 6k! This
compares to my VB version which runs to a couple of hundred k (although
that one does allow the user to define their own languages quite easily
- - I'll get it finished soonish if anybody is interested).

If anyone does take a look, could you let me know if the results being
produced seem OK, please? All three are 'no frills', let me know about
any enhancements which are wanted. I'll get round to doing Droyne and
Aslan sometime in the next week.

BTW, these are the first items for my web site so it's a bit empty at
the moment. I'll fill it up a bit when (if!) I get the time.

Regards,

Rob.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 01:50:59 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Spark

kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz) wrote

> >>What if a bunch of pirates formed a feudal trchnocracy on a near-C rock and
> >>held discussions about Heinlein with their Virus-infected lesbian Aslan
> >>computer which use KB2.0.  They are all armed with pelvic mounted plasma
> >>guns, and can drop a deer at 2km through dense woods.
> >
> >Aahhrr! Obey! Whooosh! Troopers! Grrr-click-whirr! (skake, shake, clatter)
> >46! BLAM! ouch! Oooohr! bang! thump!
> >
> >Why?
> 
> Why, indeed?  The Templars would never permit this sort of interefence with
> their plans to wipe out the Vilani using common Terran bacteria, backed up
> by space fighters (which are an economically rational way to fight
> battlecruisers).

But what makes you think that the Templars have any control over their
own actions ?  Obviously it is just a question of who is pulling
humaniti's strings that day - Yaskodray/Cthulhu or The Hivers/The Great
Old Ones.  We should also realize that given the rigor of the Terran
environment the bacteria should be able to wipe out the Villani (whom we
all know have weak immune systems - but the strong digestive sytem
protection their cannibalism requires) without needing the Templars
help.  As to your space fighter theory don't you realize that your
theory about "economic rationality" is only a product of a patriarchal
phallocentic western culture which does not pay sufficient attention to
the more enlightened belief sytems of non western peoples whom we all
know are _all_ deeply concerned with The Environment (capitalization
deliberate), which is more important than economics anyway.

So who is going to make the movie of this theory, will it be a musical,
and who should star in it ?    

This is my second attempt to send this message.  On my previous attempt
the message did not go through.  It seems obvious that the Vilani agents
within our society must have sabatogued my posting. :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 10:44:27 +0000
From: Rob Day <rob@glisten.demon.co.uk>
Subject: Copyright messages

Quick question,

If I have traveller stuff up on a web site, what copyright remarks do I
need to make regarding IG/whoever? Is there a generally accepted
standard text or does everyone make-up whatever they think is suitable?
Also, will it need to appear on every page, or will one page per site be
OK?

Thanks,
- -- 
Rob

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:57:51 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: CSC for PC's?

At 04:26 PM 11/22/97 GMT, you wrote:
>I am writing a Win 3.1 / Win 95 version of CSC during my lunch breaks 
>(sad, but true) ... it was due to be completed by now, but work has 
>been busy and trips out of the office have slowed down the completion 
>of CSC.

Need I say that when you are done, I'd like a copy?
- --
+--------------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry                 dberry@hooked.net   |
|             http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/             |
+--------------------------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given only to the efficient." |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, founder, German Imperial Army |
+--------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 04:01:35 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

At 09:51 AM 11/22/97 -0700, Bruce wrote:
>
>On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Lars Adler wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Erwin Fritz wrote:
>> > Alan Rickman is, arguably, the greatest villain since Vader.
>> 
>> I agree with that if you mean Gruber in "Die Hard".
>> His Sheriff of Nottingham performance was a little poor, IMHO.
>
>Come now..."Cancel Christmas!" has _got_ to be one of the greatest cheesy
>villain lines in the history of film!

Not to mention such classics as "I'm going to cut your heart with a
spoon!", "Be in my quarters at 10 o'clock, you, 10:30.. bring a friend.",
and "Do you mind?  we've just been married."

IMHO, Alan Rickman is the only reason to watch that film..

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|   http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/    |
|-------------------------------------|
| "It is not the big armies that win  |
|  battles, it is the good ones"      |
|             -Maurice de Saxe        |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:57:37 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Copyright messages

>If I have traveller stuff up on a web site, what copyright remarks do I
>need to make regarding IG/whoever? Is there a generally accepted
>standard text or does everyone make-up whatever they think is suitable?
>Also, will it need to appear on every page, or will one page per site be
>OK?

On the IG website, it says that the following text needs to be on all pages
(I do not now if they mean on every site, or on every subpage):
- ----------------
Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises.
Portions of this material are Copyright =A91977-1996 Far Future Enterprises.
- ----------------
It seems strange to me that it is required to have a text about a copyright
that has expired, but perhaps it hasn't been updated.


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:25:18 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Word Generators

>http://www.glisten.demon.co.uk/traveller.htm
>
>The best thing about them is the size, the Vilani one is only 6k! This
>compares to my VB version which runs to a couple of hundred k (although
>that one does allow the user to define their own languages quite easily
>- I'll get it finished soonish if anybody is interested).

I am very interested in such a word generator, as I run other games than
Traveller (and it would be useful for Traveller also).

>If anyone does take a look, could you let me know if the results being
>produced seem OK, please? All three are 'no frills', let me know about
>any enhancements which are wanted. I'll get round to doing Droyne and
>Aslan sometime in the next week.

I think they are working just fine, although I cannot comment on the words
produced (since I am very new to Traveller). The random length words often
turn out to be quite long (especially for Vargr).

What about a function to save the generated words as a text file?


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 08:55:52 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Injury

David J. Golden wrote:

snip
>
>	Hmmm ... does the Imperium still use titanium pins or screws to
>hold things like jaws together? I think I'd hate to get hit by an
>EMP and have arcs jump from one side of my face to the other ...
>although I'm sure it would look cool to anybody standing around
>me.


	Too funny!  I imagine this falls under adding insult and injury to
injury.  It's things like this that make read the TML before eating
breakfast...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 09:13:02 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.

Kenji wrote:

>
>... and, in fact, immediately after the demonstration, Ms. Tunngardaya of
>the Number Fifteen Xenopolitical Investigative Embassy was heard to extend
>an invitation to Winiipitaa -- and her great-uncle, of course -- to visit
>the Sayat Concourse.  In order to demonstrate the efficacy of the BD-WIMPS,
>that is.  Meanwhile, other members of #15 sacrificed several hapless small
>animals at Hengabar Spofulam's feet and attempted to paint "lucky symbols"
>onto his person using the fresh blood.
>
>Imperial military police are presently investigating the question of how
>the animals were smuggled onto the testing grounds.
>
>[Seriously, FS and its output are the coolest.  Is there an archive of FS
>material anywhere?  There should be!]


	Well, I've got the vast majority of it floating around somewhere,
but it's not organized or available on the web.  If anyone wants to
volunteer, I'd be more than willing to flood their mailbox with old
Spofustuff...

	In passing, has BITS thought of doing a 101 Guns supplement?  While
it might sell better in the Stateside than in the UK, it might add a nice
bit of flavour for the really triggerhappy Trav players out there.

	And the idea of a Sayat/Spofulam strategic alliance is a deeply
frightening one :).  I have this wierd vision of Hengabar and the rest of
the family and a bunch of Sayat doing things that would blow PETA's
collective mind and then smearing gore all over each other.  God only knows
what a little fresh blood in the Design Bureau would lead to...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:58:54 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: JTAS

I sent some material to JTAS a while ago. It came back with a Mail Service
'refused' label on it.
Does anyone know if JTAS has changed address or something like that?

MJD

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 14:27:38 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Copyright messages

In a message dated 97-11-23 08:31:05 EST, you write:

<< It seems strange to me that it is required to have a text about a copyright
 that has expired, but perhaps it hasn't been updated.>>


Expired? Copyrights last at least 50 years.

Marc Miller.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:09:39 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Web Site down ...

Just to give everybody a heads up, I'm close to being finished
restoring my old site with FrontPage ... unfortunately, I've
trashed my online directory totally. Until tech support gets
around to reconfiguring things, the only place my site exists is
on my desktop.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 12:57:49 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright messages

At 10:44 am 11/23/97 +0000, you wrote:
>Quick question,
>
>If I have traveller stuff up on a web site, what copyright
remarks do I
>need to make regarding IG/whoever? Is there a generally accepted
>standard text or does everyone make-up whatever they think is
suitable?
>Also, will it need to appear on every page, or will one page per
site be
>OK?

	The one Marc Miller gave me way back when was "Traveller is a
registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises. Portions of this
material may be (c)
1977-1996 Far Future Enterprises." That's what I've been using
ever since, although now there should probably be something in
there about IG as well ...

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:08:11 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: using sensors for survey or science

At 07:11 pm 11/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Multiple attempts to detect the same gas giant by a given ship
are not
>allowed.

	Why not? As long as you're willing to waste the time and keep
looking for something that may not even be there ... In fact, I'd
think that with repeated searches you could increase your odds of
detecting something (if it's there) with all the data piling up
....

>The referee should roll this task in secret. In addition the
refere should
>roll 1d6 for each gas giant; if the result is a "1", the gas
giant is
>undetectable at this time.

	Especially given this rule, I'd think you should allow multiple
attempts. If my players want to spend the next 6 months' game
time trying to detect gas giants, I'll just have to come up with
something more interesting ... where's my FS catalog...?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 13:10:02 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Web Site down ...

>trashed my online directory totally. Until tech support gets
>around to reconfiguring things, the only place my site exists is
>on my desktop.

	Note this doesn't mean it's going away, or even moving! It's
staying right where it is ... er ... was ... er ... will be.

	And it looks like FrontPage has done a nice little number on
Microsoft's site, too! I'm getting no response, and a 100% loss
of packets when pinging www.microsoft.com. 


- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 97 20:18 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Black globe gun?

In-Reply-To: <3477EA3C.740E@bellatlantic.net>

Giovanni,

> Does any one on the list have any info on the black globe gun?  I
> thought I remembered hearing something about this weapon years ago, but
> the info was very fuzzy.  All I do remember is that they were used for
> chewing up planets.  I was recently designing a large(understatement of
> the week) ship and simply couldn't build a big enough spinal mount to

<cough! splutter!>

Car Wars once had a Black *Hole* gun, but that was a *joke*...
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2119
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 24 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2120



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

CSC to Infini-V
Re: TML C&W song...
Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.
Re: Copyright messages
Re: JTAS
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?
Re: Injury
Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.
Re: CSC to Infini-V
Sector data revisions
Leaked memo to "Uncie Hengie"
Re: Injury
Re: Copyright messages
Re: Sector data revisions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 1997 19:20:32 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: CSC to Infini-V

As the alert among you may have noticed, the credit line on the last few
vehicles I posted here mentioned "Infini-V", not "CSC", as the software used
to design them.

This is the same program, renamed to avoid confusion between the software and
the rules.

(Mind you, I've also added a whole pile of enhancements, such as magnetic
armour, manipulators, draft animals, and more.)

The latest (and hopefully last) release is currently being beta-tested by Dom
and Bruce.  Once they are confident that I've fixed all the bugs, it will be
released as the second CORE software product - hopefully by the end of the
month.  (Just in time for Christmas!)


A PC-compatible version of Infini-V is also in the works, but it won't be
ready in time for Christmas. It _will_ be file-compatible with the Macintosh
version.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:21:52 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <BRuadh@southwest.net>
Subject: Re: TML C&W song...

At 01:21 PM 11/22/97 -0600, Good ol' boy, Rod D. Elliot wrote:
>
[messy quoting deleted]
>
>THE ULTIMATE TML COUNTRY & WESTERN SONG: LIFE AT POINT ONE CEE
>
>

[Hilarious filk which left me ROTFLMAO (in a big way) deleted for brevity.]

>	Oh life at point one Cee ain't no fun
>All the good ol boys here got but one eye
>	And since the Law Level's E I ain't got a gun
>They done took mah cargo and left me to die
>
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
>

Rod, you have indeed confirmed if my otherwise peaceful mind that you are
indeed ONE SICK PUPPY! This utterly absurd bit a silliness deserves a
special place in the TML hall of fame (or is that hall of flame, er, shame)
as well as the hallowed halls of my own hard drive.

I have one urgent question for you however, when do you have time to study
for the bar? :-)


Brian A. Howard

If you hear the sound of a Babel fish, run. 
For a Vogon constuctor fleet cannot be far behind.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 01:41:05 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <BRuadh@southwest.net>
Subject: Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.

At 09:13 AM 11/23/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Kenji wrote:
>
>>
>
>
>
>	Well, I've got the vast majority of it floating around somewhere,
>but it's not organized or available on the web.  If anyone wants to
>volunteer, I'd be more than willing to flood their mailbox with old
>Spofustuff...
>

SPOPUSTUFF!!!  (the sound of hysterical cackling in the background)

 Please note, Roderick, I am laughing to point of almost not being able to
type a reply. Seriously, though you must be showered with laud an honor for
you inventive, twisted, outrageous genius. 

HIP, HIP et all.

>	And the idea of a Sayat/Spofulam strategic alliance is a deeply
>frightening one :).  I have this wierd vision of Hengabar and the rest of
>the family and a bunch of Sayat doing things that would blow PETA's
>collective mind and then smearing gore all over each other.  God only knows
>what a little fresh blood in the Design Bureau would lead to...
>
A note to all those viewing: Be afraid! Be VERY afraid!

Oh, and before I forget ...

You should be expecting a visit from Sir Ira Rimmer of the BSSHTS very
shortly.


Brian A. Howard

If you hear the sound of a Babel fish, run. 
For a Vogon constuctor fleet cannot be far behind.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:48:29 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Copyright messages

><< It seems strange to me that it is required to have a text about a
>copyright
> that has expired, but perhaps it hasn't been updated.
>  >>
>
>Expired? Copyrights last at least 50 years.

Well, I am not exactly familiar with the laws concerning such things, but
the text says "Copyright =A91977-1996". If this does not mean that the
copyright has expired, what exactly does it mean?


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:01:45 +0000
From: twolf@unix.tfs.net
Subject: Re: JTAS

> I sent some material to JTAS a while ago. It came back with a Mail Service
> 'refused' label on it.
> Does anyone know if JTAS has changed address or something like that?
> 

I still haven't seen issue 27 due out last May. I figure that IG 
isn't interested in putting out JTAS.  They have our money (got 
suckered into a subscription) so why worry about producing a product.

They haven't even had the curosity of tell us what is up...how is 
that for customer service.

JD
Twolf

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:13:03 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

In mail you write:

> (Actually, that's an interesting question - how do you measure
> distance to a nearby star well enough to astrogate to it? It's
> probably a surprisingly time-consuming process - involving moving all
> over a nearby solar system to get good parallax baselines, using a
> ship with survey sensors - and even then you probably get errors at
> the 20 AU level - first-time jumps can leave you nearly anywhere.)

That's why my old post describing how the ISS does stellar mapping used
a one parsec baseline, with atomic clocks recording time hacks, while
the two observatories are linked by a laser baseline. 

The laser link has time info embedded in it as well as echoes of the
time info from the other observatory. This will (after a 6.52 year lag)
allow determining the length of the baseline to at least fractions of a
millimeter (more likely to the accuracy of the clocks). 

This will allow *very* accurate determination of stellar distances for
a few hundred parsecs or more. And as you point out, it'll be needed.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:23:46 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?

Here's my data for sectors and subsectors. Format is:
Name
Type (sector/subsector)
Location
Source of info
Where info is located in source
Comments

Naturally there are dupes, as I wanted to list all sources for info.
And it helps to know *where* a particular misspelling comes from.

"Core","SECTOR","00","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Fornast","SECTOR","01","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Ley Sector","SECTOR","02","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover",""
"Gateway","SECTOR","03","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover",""
"Luretiir!girr","SECTOR","04","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"X'kug","SECTOR","05","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Kilong","SECTOR","06","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Bar'kakr","SECTOR","07","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Mighabohk","SECTOR","08","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Chiep Zhez","SECTOR","0R","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Astron","SECTOR","0S","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover",""
"Shiants","SECTOR","0S","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Chtedrdia","SECTOR","0T","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Fulani","SECTOR","0T","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover",""
"Steblenzh","SECTOR","0U","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Telehfaeikh","SECTOR","0U","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Vanguard Reaches","SECTOR","0U","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover",""
"Beyond","SECTOR","0V","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover",""
"Lerlairaii","SECTOR","0V","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"The Beyond","SECTOR","0V","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Zhdiakltatl","SECTOR","0V","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Hlaoirloahaurl","SECTOR","0W","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Idrflanta","SECTOR","0W","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Trojan Reach","SECTOR","0W","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Menorial","SUBSECTOR","0WA","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Egryn","SUBSECTOR","0WB","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Pax Rulin","SUBSECTOR","0WC","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Gazulin","SUBSECTOR","0WD","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Bransakral","SECTOR","0X","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Reft Sector","SECTOR","0X","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Gushemege","SECTOR","0Y","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Dagudashaag","SECTOR","0Z","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Lishun","SECTOR","10","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Antares","SECTOR","11","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"The Empty Quarter","SECTOR","12","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover",""
"Star's End","SECTOR","13","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover",""
"Gh!hken","SECTOR","14","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Ruupiin","SECTOR","15","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Kirarurr!ka","SUBSECTOR","15F","Alien Module 2 K'kree","page 5","K'kree name"
"Thirty","SUBSECTOR","15F","Alien Module 2 K'kree","page 2",""
"Raakaan","SECTOR","16","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Uuk","SECTOR","17","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Gnaa Iimb'kr","SECTOR","18","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Tsadra Davr","SECTOR","1R","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Tsadra","SECTOR","1S","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Yiklerzdanzh","SECTOR","1T","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Afachtiabr","SECTOR","1U","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Far Frontiers","SECTOR","1U","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover",""
"Foreven","SECTOR","1V","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover",""
"Iakr","SECTOR","1V","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Massina","SUBSECTOR","1VD","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Fessor","SUBSECTOR","1VH","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Reidain","SUBSECTOR","1VL","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Urnian","SUBSECTOR","1VP","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Spinward Marches","SECTOR","1W","Alien Module 1 Aslan","page 36",""
"The Spinward Marches","SECTOR","1W","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Tloql","SECTOR","1W","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Mora","SUBSECTOR","1W?","Alien Module 2 K'kree","page 32",""
"Chronor","SUBSECTOR","1WA","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Jewell","SUBSECTOR","1WB","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Regina","SUBSECTOR","1WC","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Aramis","SUBSECTOR","1WD","Alien Module 2 K'kree","page 29",""
"Querion","SUBSECTOR","1WE","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Vilis","SUBSECTOR","1WF","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Lanth","SUBSECTOR","1WG","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Rhylanor","SUBSECTOR","1WH","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Darrian","SUBSECTOR","1WI","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Sword Worlds","SUBSECTOR","1WJ","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Lunion","SUBSECTOR","1WK","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Mora","SUBSECTOR","1WL","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Five Sisters","SUBSECTOR","1WM","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"District 268","SUBSECTOR","1WN","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Glisten","SUBSECTOR","1WO","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Trin's Veil","SUBSECTOR","1WP","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover","map"
"Deneb","SECTOR","1X","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Nieklsdia","SECTOR","1X","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Gulf","SUBSECTOR","1XA","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Star Lane","SUBSECTOR","1XE","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Sabine","SUBSECTOR","1XI","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Pretoria","SUBSECTOR","1XM","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Corridor","SECTOR","1Y","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Vland","SECTOR","1Z","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Meshan","SECTOR","20","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Mendan","SECTOR","21","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Amdukan","SECTOR","22","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover",""
"Ingukrax","SECTOR","23","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Gn'hk'r","SECTOR","24","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Gur","SECTOR","25","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Un'k!!'ng","SECTOR","26","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Xaagr","SECTOR","27","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Eekrookrigz","SECTOR","28","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Pliabriebl","SECTOR","2R","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Eiaplial","SECTOR","2S","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Zhdant","SECTOR","2T","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Zhodane","SECTOR","2T","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover",""
"Tienspevnekr","SECTOR","2U","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Ziafrplians","SECTOR","2V","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Briakqra'","SECTOR","2W","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Gvurrdon","SECTOR","2W","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Llanic","SUBSECTOR","2WM","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Spurl","SUBSECTOR","2WN","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Uthe","SUBSECTOR","2WO","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Firgr","SUBSECTOR","2WP","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Dravr","SECTOR","2X","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Tuglikki","SECTOR","2X","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Tulikki","SECTOR","2X","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Provence","SECTOR","2Y","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Grnouf","SUBSECTOR","2YC","Alien Module 3 Vargr","page 6",""
"The Windhorn","SECTOR","2Z","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Gzaekfueg","SECTOR","30","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Lloellerz","SECTOR","31","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Rukhs Dall","SECTOR","32","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Trenchans","SECTOR","32","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover",""
"Ktiin'gzat","SECTOR","33","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Mugheen't","SECTOR","34","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Grikr!ng","SECTOR","35","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Ukaarriit!!b","SECTOR","36","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Kring Noor","SECTOR","37","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Mbi!!gh","SECTOR","38","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Brieplanz","SECTOR","3R","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Sidiadl","SECTOR","3S","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Zdiedeiant","SECTOR","3T","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Stiatlchepr","SECTOR","3U","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Itvikiastaf","SECTOR","3V","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Knoellighz","SECTOR","3W","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Tlabrieish","SECTOR","3W","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Dhuerorrg","SECTOR","3X","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Knoellighz","SECTOR","3X","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover",""
"Tazhdapl","SECTOR","3X","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Ngathksirz","SECTOR","3Y","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Fa Dzaets","SECTOR","3Z","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Kharrthon","SECTOR","40","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Oeghz Vaerrghr","SECTOR","41","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Kfazz Ghik","SECTOR","42","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Viajlefliez","SECTOR","4R","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Bleblqansh","SECTOR","4S","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Driasera","SECTOR","4T","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Dalchie Jdatl","SECTOR","4U","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Anzsidiadl","SECTOR","4W","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Ghoekhnael","SECTOR","4W","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Ghoekhnael","SECTOR","4X","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover",""
"Ksinanirz","SECTOR","4X","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Zheranzanj","SECTOR","4X","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Zao Kfeng Ig Grilokh","SECTOR","4Y","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Knaeleng","SECTOR","4Z","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Stinj Tianz","SECTOR","5R","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Bliardlie","SECTOR","5S","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Zhiensh","SECTOR","5T","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Savria","SECTOR","5U","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Datsatl","SECTOR","5V","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Ianshaplzdier","SECTOR","5W","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Zhiaqrqiats","SECTOR","5X","Alien Module 4 Zhodani","inside front cover","Zhodani name"
"Rzakki","SECTOR","5Y","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"Listanaya","SECTOR","5Z","Alien Module 3 Vargr","inside back cover",""
"K'righeek","SUBSECTOR","???","Alien Module 2 K'kree","page 35","somewhere in K'kree space"
"RimReach","SECTOR","U1","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Phlange","SECTOR","U2","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Tracerie","SECTOR","U3","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Hadji","SECTOR","V1","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Storr","SECTOR","V2","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Mikhail","SECTOR","V3","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Darret","SECTOR","V4","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Ataurre","SECTOR","V5","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Katoonah","SECTOR","V6","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Uytal","SECTOR","V7","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Ohieraoi","SECTOR","VS","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Fahreahluis","SECTOR","VT","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Hfiywitir","SECTOR","VU","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Irlaftalea","SECTOR","VV","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Teahloarifu","SECTOR","VW","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Ahkiweahi'","SECTOR","VX","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Banners","SECTOR","VY","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover",""
"Iyiyukhtoi'","SECTOR","VY","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Aldebaran","SECTOR","W0","Alien Module 6 Solomani","inside front cover",""
"Euxene","SUBSECTOR","W0A","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Aldebaran","SUBSECTOR","W0B","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Wovoka","SUBSECTOR","W0C","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Firdausi","SUBSECTOR","W0D","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Neworld","SECTOR","W1","Alien Module 6 Solomani","inside front cover",""
"Langere","SECTOR","W2","Alien Module 6 Solomani","inside front cover",""
"Drakken","SECTOR","W3","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Lorspane","SECTOR","W4","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Porlock","SECTOR","W5","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Kidunal","SECTOR","W6","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Treece","SECTOR","W7","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Yahehwe","SECTOR","WS","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Kefiykhta","SECTOR","WT","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Heakhafaw","SECTOR","WU","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Etakhasoa","SECTOR","WV","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Aktifao","SECTOR","WW","Alien Module 6 Solomani","inside front cover",""
"Uistilao","SECTOR","WX","Alien Module 6 Solomani","inside front cover",""
"Uistilrao","SECTOR","WX","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Ftahtuak","SECTOR","WY","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Ustral Quadrant","SECTOR","WY","Alien Module 6 Solomani","inside front cover",""
"Canopus","SECTOR","WZ","Alien Module 6 Solomani","inside front cover",""
"Solomani Rim","SECTOR","X0","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Ultima","SUBSECTOR","X0A","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 20",""
"Suleiman","SUBSECTOR","X0B","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 20",""
"Concord","SUBSECTOR","X0C","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 20",""
"Harlequin","SUBSECTOR","X0D","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 20",""
"Alderamin","SUBSECTOR","X0E","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 20",""
"Esperance","SUBSECTOR","X0F","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 20",""
"Vega","SUBSECTOR","X0G","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 20",""
"Banasdan","SUBSECTOR","X0H","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 20",""
"Albadawi","SUBSECTOR","X0I","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 20",""
"Dingir","SUBSECTOR","X0J","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 21",""
"Sol","SUBSECTOR","X0K","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 21",""
"Arcturus","SUBSECTOR","X0L","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 21",""
"Jardin","SUBSECTOR","X0M","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 21",""
"Capella","SUBSECTOR","X0N","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 21",""
"Gemini","SUBSECTOR","X0O","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 21",""
"Kulkulkan","SUBSECTOR","X0P","Alien Module 6 Solomani","page 21",""
"Alpha Crucis","SECTOR","X1","Alien Module 6 Solomani","inside front cover",""
"Ximenes","SUBSECTOR","X1A","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Orichalc","SUBSECTOR","X1E","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Denebola","SUBSECTOR","X1I","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Ziusudra","SUBSECTOR","X1M","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Spica","SECTOR","X2","Alien Module 6 Solomani","inside front cover",""
"Phlask","SECTOR","X3","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Centrax","SECTOR","X4","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Wrenton","SECTOR","X5","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Folgore","SECTOR","X6","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Avereguar","SECTOR","X7","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Hkakhaeaw","SECTOR","XS","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Esai'yo","SECTOR","XT","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Waroatahe","SECTOR","XU","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Karleaya","SECTOR","XV","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Stahaia'yo","SECTOR","XW","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Staihaia'yo","SECTOR","XW","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Iwahfuah","SECTOR","XX","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Dark Nebula","SECTOR","XY","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"I'aheako","SECTOR","XY","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Kilane","SUBSECTOR","XYG","Alien Module 1 Aslan","page 35","see Kilrai'"
"Kilrai'","SUBSECTOR","XYG","Alien Module 1 Aslan","page 2",""
"Magyar","SECTOR","XZ","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Gadarur","SUBSECTOR","XZD","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Walpurgis","SUBSECTOR","XZH","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Fugue","SUBSECTOR","XZL","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Morency","SUBSECTOR","XZP","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Diaspora","SECTOR","Y0","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Hijiri","SUBSECTOR","Y0M","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Shumisdi","SUBSECTOR","Y0N","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Madoc","SUBSECTOR","Y0O","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Khulam","SUBSECTOR","Y0P","The Spinward Marches Campaign","inside front cover",""
"Old Expanses","SECTOR","Y1","Alien Module 6 Solomani","inside front cover",""
"The Old Expanses","SECTOR","Y1","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Hinterworlds","SECTOR","Y2","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover",""
"Leonidae","SECTOR","Y3","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover",""
"Extolian","SECTOR","Y4","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover",""
"Krurrihkugr","SECTOR","Y4","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Gnoghikt!","SECTOR","Y5","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Ricenden","SECTOR","Y5","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Blaskon","SECTOR","Y6","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Okteekrul","SECTOR","Y6","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Hkimbiipam","SECTOR","Y7","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Nooq","SECTOR","Y7","Alien Module 7 Hivers","inside back cover",""
"Gzektixk","SECTOR","Y8","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Khaeaw","SECTOR","YS","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Faoheiroi'iyhao","SECTOR","YT","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Ftaoiyekyu","SECTOR","YU","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Afawahisa","SECTOR","YV","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Hlakhoi","SECTOR","YW","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Hlakoi","SECTOR","YW","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Ealiyasiyw","SECTOR","YX","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Aeitle Sakh","SECTOR","YY","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Reaver's Deep","SECTOR","YY","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Daibei","SECTOR","YZ","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Massila","SECTOR","Z0","Alien Module 6 Solomani","inside front cover",""
"Massilia","SECTOR","Z0","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Delphi","SECTOR","Z1","Alien Module 6 Solomani","inside front cover",""
"Glimmerdrift Reaches","SECTOR","Z2","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover",""
"Crucis Margin","SECTOR","Z3","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover",""
"Kaa G!'kul","SECTOR","Z4","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Gzirr!k'l","SECTOR","Z5","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"K'trekreer","SECTOR","Z6","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Nuughe","SECTOR","Z7","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"N!!krumbiix","SECTOR","Z8","Alien Module 2 K'kree","inside back cover","K'kree name"
"Theta Borealis","SECTOR","ZS","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover",""
"Iykhaiser","SECTOR","ZT","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Theron","SECTOR","ZT","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover",""
"Iphigenaia","SECTOR","ZU","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Kyatulyare'","SECTOR","ZU","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Touchstone","SECTOR","ZV","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Weasuirlaoa","SECTOR","ZV","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Iiyoihuakh","SECTOR","ZW","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Riftspan Reach","SECTOR","ZW","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover",""
"Riftspan Reaches","SECTOR","ZW","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Khtiyhkokaeiw","SECTOR","ZX","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover","Aslan name"
"Verge","SECTOR","ZX","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Ilelish","SECTOR","ZY","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""
"Illelish","SECTOR","ZY","Alien Module 1 Aslan","inside back cover",""
"Zarushagar","SECTOR","ZZ","Alien Module 5 Droyne","inside back cover",""

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:42:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Injury

In mail you write:

> At 06:17 pm 11/19/97 PST, you wrote:
>> Low frequency sound can do nasties to you also. And it *can't* be
>> shielded. Which is why it hasn't been used as a weapon. So far
>> nobody has figured out how to use it without nailing themselves as
>> well as the enemy.

>         I recall Heinlein used infrasonics to induce feelings of unease
> in the invaders in one of his old, old books, but I'd never heard
> of any other effects. Got any more detailed information (I may
> want to build a small sonic obliterator to use on certain people
> at work ...).

What I recall is that the interesting effects are in the sub 20 Hz
range. Depending on the frequency, you got epilietic type fits, nausea,
fear or even death (or so I'm told). 

The problem is the *wavelength*. At 20 Hz, the wavelength is something
on the order of 50 feet. Which makes designing an emitter fun. And
means that it tends to diffract around barriers.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:59:47 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.

At 09:13 AM 11/23/97 -0600, you wrote:

>	Well, I've got the vast majority of it floating around somewhere,
>but it's not organized or available on the web.  If anyone wants to
>volunteer, I'd be more than willing to flood their mailbox with old
>Spofustuff...

I'd be happy to do it, just send it as one zipped file please.. makes my
life much easier..

>	In passing, has BITS thought of doing a 101 Guns supplement?  While
>it might sell better in the Stateside than in the UK, it might add a nice
>bit of flavour for the really triggerhappy Trav players out there.

Right now, I'm planning on doing a load of weapons for ACQ.  These will
include MT style Recoil and Signature stats, which ACQ uses.


- --
+------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry         dberry@hooked.net   |
|         http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/         |
+------------------------------------------------+
| "Only on the surface has the strategic missile |
| race reflected competition between the United  |
| States and the Soviet Union; the real struggle |
| is between the US Air Force and its archrival  |
| the US Navy."              -Samuel H. Day, Jr. |
+------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 16:56:28 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: CSC to Infini-V

At 07:20 PM 11/23/97 GMT, you wrote:

>A PC-compatible version of Infini-V is also in the works, but it won't be
>ready in time for Christmas. It _will_ be file-compatible with the Macintosh
>version.

Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy!

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry     dberry@hooked.net |
|     http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/     |
|----------------------------------------|
| "The best tank terrain is that without |
|  anti-tank weapons."                   |
|            -Russian Military Doctrine  |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:11:17 +1100 (EDT)
From: "Barry / Michael James (COM)" <m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au>
Subject: Sector data revisions

I like the suggestions people are making about 'logical' revisions to the
sector data. I'd just like to say one thing: it's a big galaxy. 
In other words, there should be *illogical* (or marginally logical) worlds
out there too. Although there won't be very many size 1 vacuum worlds with
tens of billions of inhabitants, it will make a hell of a game when the
players *do* make planetfall on one of them! 
MB

=========================================================
m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au ------ preferred address
mbarry@pcug.org.au              ------ alternative address

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 21:10:10
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Leaked memo to "Uncie Hengie"

To : Uncie Hengie

From : Ditzamaanner Spofulam

Re : BD - Wimp Booooorrrring

Uncie,

This is Cousin Ditzie here. It's boooooring here at Compliance. A couple of
us saw the tapes about Winnie and the fun she was having, so we put our
heads together.

I reckon we could take a teensy weensie baby particle accelerator and build
it to stay within the hunnerd kilos or so you can carry in a BDE body
BeeeeDeeeEeeee body suit. And weeeeee reckon the beam would stay together
to six hunnerd kilometers or so.

See, with a 0.64 meter tube, eight centimeters wide, you should be able to
have a quarter of a megajoule or so on come out ... with should rilly rilly
muss the makeup of any stray tin canny-type person. It's elementary
particles too, so it's hyuk hyuk hyuk time if they dont have shielded leccy
stuff.

We built a draft model to try on Leeeeeegals car, and and and Cousin Davey
hadnt taken his meds and he says he can still see the purple spiders, but
weeeee think he's lying.

Those boooooooring people down at Leeeegals say we need to put a carriage
and a beam pointer on any particle accelerator. Weeee reckon if it's being
carried it dont need a carriage, and hand-held lasers dont need a beam
pointer, so why should a hand-held particle-warticle accelerator ?

And and and if it turns out you cant carry a big enough power pack to make
it work - and, Uncie, an accumulator for a quarter of a meee-jay peeeeey-ay
is just twenty-five kilograms, then you could have a friiiieeeend in a
body-suit carrying the power plant and run a cord between you ... and 90
kilos of fuuuusie plus puts out about point three of a megawatt.

So Uncie, can we build one ? Can we can we can we can we ???

Your loving cousein,

Ditzie

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 20:00:30 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Injury

At 08:17 AM 11/22/97 -0700, Dave Golden wrote:
>snip<
>	One example of this is the problem with the original CSC
>damage/armor relationship. It resulted in a 250kg HE bomb being
>able to penetrate almost a quarter of a kilometer of solid stone.
>Now, an HE bomb does quite a bit of damage, but it won't
>penetrate solid stone THAT well. Instead, it'll make a crater a
>meter or two across.

Dave,
It depends on the type of stone, sandstone, limestone, or granite.<G>
A 250kg will make a larger crater than 2 meters across in *stone*. The 5
inch Naval Canon Mk 45 projo weighing in at 75 pounds(34kg) will make a
crater over 4 meters across in *stone*. I have seen it do it. The 16 inch
Naval Rifle's 2200 pound(997.9 kg) explosive shell will make a crater over
20 meters across and over 7 meters in depth.(Mix of sand, earth and stone)
The USS New Jersey made a *new* lagoon on Goat Island when it fired on the
onshore range there the last time they brought her out of *balls*. It was
only a three round *spotting* shots that did it too. After that she could
only fire out to sea.

As for a 250 kg iron bomb, well common sense will have to prevail, just
like in TNE if you put a double barreled shot gun in a target's mouth, you
still had a 20 percent chance of missing with each shot or 4 percent chance
of missing with both barrels. It is just one of *quirks* of CSC but a very
minor one. 

Just remember that according to FFS2, NASA has better starship computers
than the NSA/CIA does, and they are all on the scale of the ENIAC at all
TL's. But we both know that is not the case.
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 17:41:51 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Copyright messages

In mail you write:

> On the IG website, it says that the following text needs to be on all pages
> (I do not now if they mean on every site, or on every subpage):
> ----------------
> Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises.
> Portions of this material are Copyright =A91977-1996 Far Future Enterprises.
> ----------------
> It seems strange to me that it is required to have a text about a copyright
> that has expired, but perhaps it hasn't been updated.

Anything copyright in 1977 won't expire until *at least* 2052. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:40:56 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

One suggestion I'd also like to throw into the ring concerns the number of
star ports. Virtually every planet shows at least an E class port, which I
can live with, but (IMHO) there are far, far too many D class and above
concidering that M0 is set right after a period where star travel had all
but died out.

I've basically been declassifying any planet with a TL 0 - 4 as an X,  TL
4 - 6 as an E (Airports are noted but do not have facilities for star/space
craft), and TL 6 - 9 as D class ports (Spaceports but not equipt for
Starships). Exceptions are "contacted" planets (as adjusted by the the
percentages in M0 Campaign, X's become E's etc.). Of course there are the
occational (very rare) planet with an "Artifact" starport, but (again, IMHO)
these are usually unaccessable to the Natives for whatever handwaved reason
makes a good adventure.

If there were as many class A and B starports around as the current data
indecates I have a hard time buying the loss of starflight that is a major
factor of the Long Night! Pocket Empires not withstanding the ratio of worls
capable of producing star ships just seems extremely high.

(Ok, Mike, now you've opened that can of worms!  Take to the shelter kids!)

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com
- -----Original Message-----
From: Barry / Michael James (COM) <m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au>
To: Traveller Mailing List <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Sunday, November 23, 1997 10:54 PM
Subject: Sector data revisions


>I like the suggestions people are making about 'logical' revisions to the
>sector data. I'd just like to say one thing: it's a big galaxy.
>In other words, there should be *illogical* (or marginally logical) worlds
>out there too. Although there won't be very many size 1 vacuum worlds with
>tens of billions of inhabitants, it will make a hell of a game when the
>players *do* make planetfall on one of them!
>MB
>
>=========================================================
>m.barry@student.canberra.edu.au ------ preferred address
>mbarry@pcug.org.au              ------ alternative address
>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2120
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 24 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2121



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

TL humour (more?)
Re: CSC to Infini-V
Low-Frequency weapons
Copyright
re: setting up traveller archive
Re: Copyright messages
Re: Injury
Re: Injury
Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.
Re: TML C&W song...
Looking For
Sector and Subsector Names

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:54:23 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: TL humour (more?)

>One obvious one seems to be a firm belief that outside aid cannot
>seriously affect the technological development of a culture.  This "law" 
>would explain why we have TL 6 worlds 1 parsec away from TL 12 worlds, no
>one from the TL 12 world attempts to help raise the tech level of the
>neighboring worlds because they are sure the effort will fail. 
>
>Postmodernly yours-

  That's it! The real reason for all this is that the charges for a
site license are independent of the number of users, so it simply is
provably uneconomic for low-pop planets to develop. Very cunning of
the Vilani to install such an insidious system for suppressing their
subject worlds, and loyal satellites could be rewarded with discounts,
bonus frequent jumper points, or even the semi-mythical fee waiver.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 22:24:50 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: CSC to Infini-V

>As the alert among you may have noticed, the credit line on the last few
>vehicles I posted here mentioned "Infini-V", not "CSC", as the software used
>to design them.
>
>This is the same program, renamed to avoid confusion between the software and
>the rules.

Rob,
I hate to tell you this, but the name just totally confused me, I thought
this was about Infini-D, a 3-D graphics rendering package.  I was thinking,
cool, someones using Infini-D to do Traveller graphics.

				Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                       |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them.    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html            |

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:23:38 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Low-Frequency weapons

I remember reading a while ago about the ultra-low freqency weapons various
folks were trying out. One was a riot-control 'sonic cannon', but the other
was much more fun.

The idea was that a powerful low-frequency wave passed throught the Mantle
could cause tectonic activity due to resonance along fault lines. The fear
amongst the few who knew about this was that the Chinese had one, poised to
shake the San Andreas Fault to bits.

This one ranks (to me) alongside the Alternative Roswell Theory. Daft, but
interesting.

ART? Ok then. It goes like this....

Roswell was a coverup. A really good one. It's got you all confused, hasn't
it? Mosat people say 'crank' when you mantion you believe that an alien
ship crashed at Roswell. The Us govt has kept the debate alive, with
slightly more creaky evidence released every time the controversy dies
down. The whole thing has been successfully marginalised by keeping only
the most dedicated nutters involved. It's kept everyone looking in the
wrong place. A risky coverup, but successful.

ART goes on to say that they're really covering up something that happened
somewhere else. It's the most daring coverup in history, since they're
pretending that a UFO crashed to cover the fact that a UFO crashed. But
somewhere else. Alaska, maybe, or New York (would anyone actually notice?).

Like I said, daft. But fun.

And what if these hypothetical aliens were space pirates, who'd fiddled
with their Transponder because of virus in their computer, but were killed
by Terran bacteria after actually LIKING the movie of a SF book.....

Maybe they'd want to cover that up too....

In fun, MJD.




 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 00:12:42 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Copyright

Didn't Car Wars let you mount X-ray lasers on your car? That's pretty
lethal for you AND everyone else. 

Tac nukes make for a short game, though.
But on the subject of copyright: Those fellows over in Brussels tell us
that British copyright should stand at Life +70 years now, not 50 as
previously. Since Marc is still posting to the TML and producing Traveller
material, you need to credit him for at least the next 70 years. Hopefully
a good bit more.

While there is no copyright in a title, where a title is insuperable from
the work of an author (as is clearly the case here) then any legal
proceedings would be an all-but-certainty. While I'm sure it hardly matters
for a single web page produced out of love for the game, the enforceable
legal requirement is that you credit FarFuture etc. with a
copyright/registered trademark note. Do it out of courtesy, even if you're
sure nobody would want to take action against you for omitting. I forget
who is was who said, 'Copyrights last as long as you defend them' but if
too many people start omitting the notice, then it might become necessary
to move to defend those rights - just in case. Nobody wants that to happen.

Besides, the notice tells those who've accidentally stumbled on your web
page what it's all about. It might even lead them to take a look at the
game....

The copyright notice should be automatically extended to 1997,1998 etc as
time moves on. The material is copyright and remains so except in those
cases where the copyright holder grants permission or allows the material
to pass into the public domain.

MJD. Midnight Sunday, with Roderick's appalling C&W song nibbling at my
sanity.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:54:17 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re: setting up traveller archive

>>Rob Said;
>>Howdy all,
>>
>>I would like to see an AAB on the Web.

>"Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu> replied:
>[snip Archive idea]
>Rob I think you are close...but not quite on.
>Awhile ago (when I had more time) I began a project.  Not an archive in
>reality, but an archive of *links*.  I will email you the pretty big
>bookmark file I have which represents some portion of the unimaginable
>amount of work involved apon request via private email.  As you will see I
>only got partway there...and I don't even know how big a part!
>The archive subject matter is already out there.  What is needed is a
>comprehensive (think about that) "bookmark" page with links to all that
>content in an organized, categorized, maybe even searchable form.
>My opinion.

This is more the approach I've been taking in another little project to
fill my spare tea breaks.

Yes, the librarian in me has struck again and I've been working on a
'webliography' to complement the bibliography.

The idea here is to provide a giant 'bookmark' page with details of web
pages, owners, contents, last update and so forth.  I think Peter has the
idea.

Please note that I said web pages not web sites. Doing Web sites just
doesn't do justice to contents and so forth and makes a 'subject' approach
to the web pages very difficult.  Traveller web pages are such a broad mix
of contents that knowing whether one particular site will contain anything
you're interested in can take a lot of surfing.  What is needed is a more
'comprehensive' (as Peter rightly says) approach to the whole thing.  Thus
the idea would be to be able to both look up particular authors:

a.non
     page with library data
     page with starship designs
     etc
b.non
     page with Traveller links
     page with alternate rules
     page with starship designs
     page with starship deckplans
     etc


AND be able to look up particular subjects, e.g.

Starship Designs
     a.non
     b.non

Alternate Rules
     b.non


Software
     c.non

(Of course the possibilities are endless for further subdivisios of these
subjects)  (the whole idea of an overarching classification
scheme-cum-thesaurus for Traveller has now been exercising my brain for
some decade and a half)


This is where I've come unstuck as there are just so many pages (not a
problem by itself) but of course they're constantly changing (and I have a
life - of sorts - to lead in addition to doing this).  If everyone just
quit developing pages now (!) then I reckon I could get it done by next
summer but it's like painting the <insert local metaphor here>.

A couple of months ago I *think* I had a handle on every Traveller site in
existence - though I'm quite ready to be corrected on that - having done
various searches with a variety of engines and having waded round the web
ring a couple of times and then followed up everyone's 'links' pages.  So I
*think* I'm up on the scale of the problem.  (And can see why Rob was
suggesting the easier [1] option of collecting web pages into centralized
repositories).

I believe I'm right in thinking that it's possible to have a page notify
you when it gets changed (via a third party service?) but I've not explored
this and the prospect of submitting every Traveller page for this kind of
notification is fearsome.  (though if anyone can let me know where/how you
go about this I'd be grateful and might try a few pages as an experiment).

Given the problems involved I'm not certain I can go any further than I
have unless I can persuade work that this should be a full time project!
However, it has been interesting and if nothing else, I've been seriously
impressed with the quality of some of the pages out there.


On the whole, the idea makes the 18 months my bibliography took look like a
picnic of simplicity and straightforwardness [2].  If anyone has any bright
ideas, I'd welcome them.  But I have a feeling that we're into the
worrisome realm that is exercising the minds of an awful lot of information
professionals at the moment as some kind of bibliographic control is
required/desired for the Internet in all its glory.

My apologies to those who'd rather surf free and for whom the above must
seem incomprehensibly alien. [3]

tc


[1]  From the webliographers point of view!

[2]  If anyone thinks it was let me assure them that I nearly gave up a
couple of times and I *hate* giving up.

[3]  'Anal' sprang to mind as the last word for that sentence but it's *my*
profession and I'm proud of it!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 05:14:43 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Copyright messages

In a message dated 97-11-23 19:30:59 EST, you write:

<< 
 	The one Marc Miller gave me way back when was "Traveller is a
 registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises. Portions of this
 material may be (c)
 1977-1996 Far Future Enterprises." That's what I've been using
 ever since, although now there should probably be something in
 there about IG as well ...
  >>

And that should be revised to say:

"Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises. Portions of
this material are (c) 1977-1997 Far Future Enterprises."


Marc

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 11:43:54 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Injury

>        Hmmm ... does the Imperium still use titanium pins or screws to
>hold things like jaws together? I think I'd hate to get hit by an
>EMP and have arcs jump from one side of my face to the other ...
>although I'm sure it would look cool to anybody standing around
>me.
>
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj

The human body is one long conductor (brackish water mostly) wether he has
titanium screws in his yaw or not.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:08:16 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Injury

>Dave,
>It depends on the type of stone, sandstone, limestone, or granite.<G>
>A 250kg will make a larger crater than 2 meters across in *stone*. The 5
>inch Naval Canon Mk 45 projo weighing in at 75 pounds(34kg) will make a
>crater over 4 meters across in *stone*. I have seen it do it. The 16 inch
>Naval Rifle's 2200 pound(997.9 kg) explosive shell will make a crater over
>20 meters across and over 7 meters in depth.(Mix of sand, earth and stone)
>The USS New Jersey made a *new* lagoon on Goat Island when it fired on the
>onshore range there the last time they brought her out of *balls*. It was
>only a three round *spotting* shots that did it too. After that she could
>only fire out to sea.

This is because HE explosions penetrate by blowing a hemispherical chunk
out of the target rather than drilling a hole. Therefore the penetrative
ability of HE is proportional to the cuberoot of the energy content in the
bomb times some fiddle factor instead of linear.
The important thing here is the exponent and not the fiddle factor.

Somebody called this error a minor one? I'd like a design/combat system
that handles starships as well as fists with the SAME rules - not for
complexitys sake but for simplicity. Me as a ref want to just look at the
stats for something and use it wether it is an x-ray 500 MJ laser shooting
at butterflies at 1 AU.

No separation between personal/vehicle/starship weaponry/damage/hits as
this will only complicate things on the edges between the systems (Joe
Stargazer shooting at the fleeing ship with his Brontosaurus plazma
pistol).


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:01:35 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.

Doug Berry wrote:

>
>At 09:13 AM 11/23/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>>	Well, I've got the vast majority of it floating around somewhere,
>>but it's not organized or available on the web.  If anyone wants to
>>volunteer, I'd be more than willing to flood their mailbox with old
>>Spofustuff...
>
>I'd be happy to do it, just send it as one zipped file please.. makes my
>life much easier..
>


	Erk...  That's going to involve a whole lot of cutting and pasting.
Next weekend?



>>	In passing, has BITS thought of doing a 101 Guns supplement?  While
>>it might sell better in the Stateside than in the UK, it might add a nice
>>bit of flavour for the really triggerhappy Trav players out there.
>
>Right now, I'm planning on doing a load of weapons for ACQ.  These will
>include MT style Recoil and Signature stats, which ACQ uses.

	If you want, I can send you a few designs; I've got a few
relatively normal ones floating around...


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 07:01:19 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: TML C&W song...

Brian A. Howard wrote:
>
>At 01:21 PM 11/22/97 -0600, Good ol' boy, Rod D. Elliot wrote:
[snip]
>Rod, you have indeed confirmed if my otherwise peaceful mind that you are
>indeed ONE SICK PUPPY! This utterly absurd bit a silliness deserves a
>special place in the TML hall of fame (or is that hall of flame, er, shame)
>as well as the hallowed halls of my own hard drive.


	Thanks, I think :)...  I'm really proud about rhyming "perverted
computer" with killed Jim-Bob with a roto-rooter".   Only in Trav would
those lines make any sort of sense.


>
>I have one urgent question for you however, when do you have time to study
>for the bar? :-)


	Well, basically, here in Quebec things get done differently; BS
(trust me, it is) is split up into six modules; we do 5-6 weeks per module,
write an exam, and move on to the next one.  So, instead of doing things in
a sensible way like they do in the rest of the country, I get to pay
through the nose for tuition, lose in the mid five figures of work revenue
merely due to time spent in class, not to mention 6 2-week breaks to cram
for exams, and have the stress and angst prolonged for another school year.

	Basically, the whole process is just designed to fail as many
people as possible, in order to weasel around the universal access to the
profession requirement, and to make as much money off of us as possible.
And I won't bring up the bizarre and arbitrary marking practices designed
to produce 40% failure rates.  However, this year's first exam wasn't as
bad; they only failed 25%.  I guess that the class action suit last year's
class launched has rattled the Bar's cage a bit.

	That being said, the reason I've been able to keep posting here is
because I have absolutely no life.  I work, go to school, occasionally
study, eat, sleep, ride public transport, and read my email.  And that's
it.  And the hilarious thing is is that once I get out of BS, I won't be
done; I'll still have six months of low-paid articling to do before I get
set loose on the streets with the power to sue :\.

ObTrav: Next time you have your players convene in The SpacePort Bar(tm)*,
have some bar students drowning their sorrows in alcohol in the corner;
it'd add a touch of pathos :).

* The SpacePort Bar(tm): an enormous chain of franchised drinking
establishments with identical decor and wares, found across the Imperium.
There is one in every Imperial starport rated above E.  Due to obscure
Solomani heraldic influences, the chain's logo is a stylized, curvilinear,
yellow-coloured capital letter "M".

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:36:49 -0500
From: "Clark, William" <Clark@bessemer.com>
Subject: Looking For

Does anyone have, in electronic form, Xboat Routes?  I am looking for 
the information so that it ideally contains from Sector and Hex Number 
to Sector and Hex Number.  Any help is greatly appreciated.

Bill Clark
clark@bessemer.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:33:48 -0500
From: "Clark, William" <Clark@bessemer.com>
Subject: Sector and Subsector Names

The following is the current list of Sector and Subsector Names that I have.
It is in a comma delimited format as follows:

Record Number,  Sector Name, X Position, Y Position, Subsector A Name,.... Subsector P Name

Core is the reference Sector at 0,0
The Position information works as follows:



                         Lishun (0,-1)

  Dagudashaag (-1,0)      Core (0,0)           Fornast (1,0)

                        Massilia (0,1)

Here is the data

1,"Chtierabl",-7,-8,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
2,"Stinj Tianz",-9,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?"
3,"Bliardlie",-8,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
4,"Zhiensh",-7,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
5,"Savria",-6,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
6,"Datsatl",-5,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
7,"Ianshaplzdier",-4,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?","?"
8,"Zhiaqrqiats",-3,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
9,"Rzakki",-2,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
10,"Listanaya",-1,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
11,"Veg Fergakh",0,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?"
12,"Dfotseth",1,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
13,"Irugangog",2,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
14,"Finggvakhou",3,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
15,"Zortakh",4,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
16,"Spangele",5,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
17,"Nadir",6,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?"
18,"Harbinger",7,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
19,"Extremus",8,-5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
20,"Viajlefliez",-9,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","?"
21,"Bleblqansh",-8,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
22,"Driasera",-7,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
23,"Dalchie Jdatl",-6,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?"
24,"Chit Botshti",-5,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?"
25,"Ghoekhnael",-4,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
26,"Ksinanirz",-3,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
27,"Zao Kfeng Ig Grilokh",-2,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?"
28,"Knaeleng",-1,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
29,"Kharrthon",0,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
30,"Oeghz Vaerrghr",1,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?"
31,"Kfazz Ghik",2,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?"
32,"Angfutsag",3,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
33,"Rfigh",4,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?"
34,"Tar'G'kell'p",5,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","?"
35,"Kteex!",6,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
36,"Koog",7,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?"
37,"Xeeleer",8,-4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
38,"Brieplanz",-9,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
39,"Sidiadi",-8,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
40,"Zdiedeiant",-7,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
41,"Stiatlchepr",-6,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","?"
42,"Itvikiastaf",-5,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","?"
43,"Khoellighz",-4,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
44,"Dhuerorrg",-3,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
45,"Ngathksirz",-2,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
46,"Fa Dzaets",-1,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?"
47,"Gzaefueg",0,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
48,"Gashikan",1,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","Stand","Paanir","Karuin","Gashilean"
49,"Trenchan",2,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
50,"Ktiin'gzat",3,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
51,"Mugheen't",4,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
52,"Grikr!ng",5,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
53,"Ukaarriit!!b",6,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","?"
54,"Kring Noor",7,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?"
55,"Mbil!!gh",8,-3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
56,"Pliabriebl",-9,-2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
57,"Eiaplial",-8,-2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
58,"Zhodane",-7,-2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","Gaval","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","?"
59,"Tienspevnekr",-6,-2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?","?"
60,"Ziafrplians",-5,-2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","?"
61,"Gvurrdon",-4,-2,"Ongvos","Zoghz","Adhsakh","Fanganger","Uerra Rueshken","Dzen","Lla Iz Therrg","Thoengling","Kfan Uzagou","Ruhk Odzuetarung","Ksits Usathu Odzuetarung","Aelluekh","Llanic","Spurl","Uthe","Firgr"
62,"Tuglikki",-3,-2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","Khakae","?","?","?"
63,"Provence",-2,-2,"Llaezgaen","Vorvoun","Grnouf","Oerruell","Ghaar-Kourrghgo","Llaerllourz","Gveghz","Vourzga","Dzarrgh-Vo","Aenkuk","Anzaenkhaz","Zak-Oezhong","Anfharsgzo","Voudzeur","Taarskoerzn","Fhuerrrgh-Irrgho"
64,"Windhorn",-1,-2,"Dakoeng","Khonsu","Urrgae","Urzkhoe","Nanthou","El ours","Uroez","Tsougak","Urarz","Urkae","Khaellung","Sunggoe","Aekhgal"  ,"Gvadhoe","Voenggaks","Kishadiku"
65,"Meshan",0,-2,"Raen","Lues","Ungersol","Dekesh","Yonder","Arena","Varson","Maramar","Nersol","Zisran","Tokho","Ogaros","Khuulu","Faengfel","Ekso","Sudzum"
66,"Mendan",1,-2,"Zuugabish","Gainla","Armi","Mendan","Bammesuka","Kupid","Udinidir","Tozus Ganok","Sarkan","Lumda","Valosak","Kaasam","Ikdalon","Lasla","Maidza","Naem"
67,"Amdukan",2,-2,"Zimigiska","Rego","Bauk's Reach","Faraeng","Sakas","Ozuvon","Hikaru","Urru","Julian","Ghadz","Nalimin","Mesmabi","Vector","Divide","Bordarnaa","Lorean"
68,"Arzul",3,-2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","Mycocona","?","?","?"
69,"Gn'hk'r",4,-2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
70,"Gur",5,-2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
71,"Un'k!!k'ng",6,-2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
72,"Xaagr",7,-2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
73,"Eekrookrigz",8,-2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
74,"Tsadra Davr",-9,-1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
75,"Tsadra",-8,-1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
76,"Yiklerzdanzh",-7,-1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
77,"Far Frontiers",-6,-1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","Antideluvia","Alsas",  "Taemerlyk","Inverness","Wulfeck","Cabala","Jungleblut","Mnemosyne"
78,"Foreven",-5,-1,"Shiva","Lieber","Shial","Massina","Pieplow","Anika","Mowbrey","Fessor","Lassana","Titan","Xenough","Reidain","Rull","Harem  ","Piah","Urnian"
79,"Spinward Marches",-4,-1,"Chronor","Jewell","Regina","Aramis","Querion","Vilis","  Lanth","Rhylanor","Darrian","Sword Worlds","Lunion","Mora","Five Sisters","District 268","Glisten","Trin's Veil"
80,"Deneb",-3,-1,"Pretoria","Lamas","Antra","Million","Sabine","Inar","Dunmag","Atsah","Star Lane","Vincennes","Usani","Geniishir","Gulf","Zeng","Karniar","Vast Heavens"
81,"Corridor",-2,-1,"Khouth","Khukish","Lemish","The Narrows","Ian","Strand","Naadi","Uantil","Shush","The Empty Void","Atu'l","Kivu","Two Worlds","Ashishinipar","Sinta","Sashrakushra"
82,"Vland",-1,-1,"Voskhod","Vhodan","Anarsi","Theton","Lalaki Kharir","Kagamira","Vland","Shiigus","Dusa","Akumid","Kasear","Anakod",  "Parsi","Daangiilu","Nulisud","Kakadan"
83,"Lishun",0,-1,"Vakkuun","Adawi","Sotri","Criideu","Pryden","Masionia","Gama","Tephany","Shuna","Taccis","Simen","Ot Zell","Shuun","Welling","Strashna","Mirmida"
84,"Antares",1,-1,"Pelusium","Ninik","Dartho","Oulduktak","Shurlarlem","Sarar","Gimgir","Kiirkandin","Urunishu","Urnadnim","Antares","Mukusi",  "Argusap","Gaakish","Sakhag","Celebes"
85,"Empty Quarter",2,-1,"Engarmi","Daskomo","Link","Kosh","Requiem","Flandry","Co  tan","Nisaga","Lentuli","Tsuchida","Hebrin","Beta Niobe","Nulinad","Tairtsu","Irash","Nosso Nosso"
86,"Star's End",3,-1,"The Sandworlds","?","?","?","Al Mayadin","?","?","?","Nyridea","?","?","?","Tamnai","?","?","?"
87,"Gh!hken",4,-1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
88,"Ruupiin",5,-1,"?","?","?","?","?","Kirarurr!ka","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
89,"Raakaan",6,-1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
90,"Uuk",7,-1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
91,"Gnaa Iimb'kr",8,-1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?"
92,"Chiep Zhez",-9,0,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?"
93,"Astron",-8,0,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","Stane","Vilian","Surgian","Fundibul"
94,"Fulani",-7,0,"?","?","?","Lythgoe","?","?","?","Vanguard","?","?","?","Zachrisson","?","?","?","Idella"
95,"Vanguard Reaches",-6,0,"Issoudun","Andwella","Coos","Trelyn","Chapra","Haldensle  ben","Pandemonium","Eslyat","Eckmann Schrift","Four Corners","Diadem","Kajaani","Helix","Hyperion","Old Colonies","Jarnac"
96,"The Beyond",-5,0,"Mapepire","Liberty Hall","Die Weltbund","Mal'Gnar Radiant","Delta","Metchi' Alagwa","Northeast Middle Beyond","Darkling Regions","Zydar","Middle Beyond","I'Sred* Ni Heptad","Araniopa","Spinward Drift","I-Glathriel","Storm","Aslani"
97,"Trojan Reach",-4,0,"Menorial","Egyrn","Pax Rulin","Gazulin","Yggdrasil","Dpres","Sindal","Tobia","Nora'a","Goertel  ","Tlaiowaha","The Borderland","Ranib","Silraaihe","Hkea'as","Binary"
98,"Reft Sector",-3,0,"Vestus","Macon","Two Little","Barker","Usher","Sagittarian","Lost Way","Gome","Void 8","New Islands","Old Islands","Limon","Alone","Evestin","Arcrant","Moibin"
99,"Gushemege",-2,0,"Riften","Khiira","Taapvaia","Tansa","Gandonen","Ru  re","Ankhsusgar","Isi Ahto","Balech","Sallounn","Dashinshaii","Shire","Vipach","Laeth","Truax","Lagan"
100,"Dagudashaag",-1,0,"Mimu","Old Suns","Arnakhish","Iiradu","Shallows","Ushra","Khandi","Kuriishe","Zeda","The Remnants","Pact","Gadde","Bolivar","Argi","Sapphyre","Laraa"
101,"Core",0,0,"Apge","Perite","Ameros","Shinkan","Sanches","Mekee","Co  re","Kaskii","Bunkeria","Cemplas","Chant","Dingtra","Cadion","Ch'naar",  "Dunea","Saregon"
102,"Fornast",1,0,"?","?","?","Kasmar","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","Zukhin"
103,"Ley Sector",2,0,"Ikhnatan","Nightmare","Noir Deep","Zagrathian","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
104,"Gateway",3,0,"Ferris","Atoon","Denkard","Lowton","?","Windfleet","Castra","Forcett","Arconna","Beckann","Ashton","Riftin","Ownsbee","Ariel","Cinder","Farina"
105,"Luretiir!girr",4,0,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?","?"
106,"X'kug",5,0,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?"
107,"Kilong",6,0,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
108,"Bar'kakr",7,0,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
109,"Mighabohk",8,0,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
110,"Mavuzog",-9,1,"?","?","?","Tangal","?","?","?","Pyruvat","?","?","  ?","Taltan","?","?","?","Trichal"
111,"Theta Borealis",-8,1,"Alpha","Festab","Monway","Banderhue","Evalren","Corelia  n","Phoenix","Sibigil","Anguilla","Persiphus","Ventura","Duhamel","Tras falca","Borealis Kantel","Jauhaux","Bengalaz"
112,"Theron",-7,1,"Terrelay","?","?","?","Chang-Tu","?","?","?","Ubagil","?","?","?","Quadrant 01-569","?","?","?"
113,"Iphigenaia",-6,1,"Cheetham","La Grone","Keflin","Shillelagh","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?"
114,"Touchstone",-5,1,"Oneh","Tuscany","Severn","Cheketac","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
115,"Riftspan Reaches",-4,1,"Aulryakh","Hwiwuiyo","Tyehlai","Ewasya'","Trawo","Aokiylair","Ryuhleiea","Iyhaseakh","Yuhiyah","Uikhyrleirla","Hryehkhtyei","Aohelroiao","Ftyoauial","Ioihlehwa","Tuistao","Wahtoikoeakh"
116,"Verge",-3,1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
117,"Ilelish",-2,1,"Arlumer","Bakkula","Miitan","Ilelish","Steppe","Shillish","Akkula","Shudash","Verran","Dlan","Desta","Gadirur","Edge","Lyystra","Zagrab","Empty"
118,"Zarushagar",-1,1,"?","?","Lagaar","Lode","?","?","?","?","?","Liasdi","Wolf","Oasis","?","?","?","?"
119,"Massilia",0,1,"Kerr","Arar","Khisham","Zalucha","Keum","Vaait","Forquee","Palasha","Ten Suns","Shiwonee","Nes'Vra","Tooka","Annari","Shokee","Shimmer","Wescom"
120,"Delphi",1,1,"Kirkankhim","Tsent","Dishirpi","Forlorn","Zukhimi","Rift's Reach","Rayoei' Ailr","Tolananda","Aklan","Void","Anaxias","Eduum","Eta-Gu","Riramla","Zuume","Breda"
121,"Glimmerdrift Reaches",2,1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","Verge","Z  airae","Sepic","Daro"
122,"Crucis Margin",3,1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?"
123,"Kaa G!'kul",4,1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","K'righeek","?"  ,"Discord","?","?"
124,"Gzirr!k'l",5,1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
125,"K'trekreer",6,1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
126,"Nuughe",7,1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
127,"N!!krumbiix",8,1,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
128,"Harea",-9,2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
129,"Khaeaw",-8,2,"Kahabad","Pocatep","Lothian","Sepron","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
130,"Faoheiroi'iyhao",-7,2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","?","?"
131,"Ftaoiyekyu",-6,2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
132,"Afawahisa",-5,2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
133,"Hlakhoi",-4,2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
134,"Ealiyasiyw",-3,2,"Truiheiw","Airiyrlyu'","Fye'iyra","Ihearu","Ktaiyolr","Hla'ei","Kilrya","Ehilao","Oeiykh","Tohai","Fearah","Tulrakh","Eiyhkihte","Kheasu'","Wasealya","Ouhtoh"
135,"Reaver's Deep",-2,2,"Farift","Riftdeep","Riftrim","Gulf","Hryaroaa","Scotian Deep","Caledon","Nightrim","Keiar","Ea","Drexilthar","Urlaqqash","Uhtaa","Eakoi","Drinsaar","Fahlnar"
136,"Daibei",-1,2,"Edge","Alun","Standish","Iingar","Woomera","Outback","Amdani","Conda","Zhemi","Mulaar","Dudin","Cruxway","Gaalorn","Hermes","Narya","Orvon"
137,"Diaspora",0,2,"Narquel","Libert","Sufren","Khavle","Shadigi","Kushga","Alurza","Pasdaruu","Ebasha","Iusea","The Blight","Promise","Hijiri","Shumisdi","Madoc","Khulam"
138,"Old Expanses",1,2,"Dethenes","Quinoid","Ahrhi","Rusco","Srys","Jayna","Twenty-One Worlds","Ile","Thoezennt","Shenk","Karse","Vendtup","Nicosia","Sarid","So Skire","Bascoj"
139,"Hinterworlds",2,2,"Adar","Tlianke","Anubis","Pendiash Ginshar","Cimeon","Darvis","Cromar","Menere's Reach","Nullia","Bruia","Silver Laurel","Sontra","Hashi","Kandra","Tempri","Aquila"
140,"Leonidae",3,2,"Nejim","?","?","?","Valc","?","?","?","Zej","?","?"  ,"?","Yuddunn","?","?","?"
141,"Extolian",4,2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
142,"Ricenden",5,2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","Guaran","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?","?"
143,"Blaskon",6,2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
144,"Nooq",7,2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?"
145,"Gzektixk",8,2,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
146,"Tlyasea",-9,3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
147,"Hkakhaeaw",-8,3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
148,"Esai'yo",-7,3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
149,"Waroatahe",-6,3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
150,"Karleaya",-5,3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
151,"Staihaia'yo",-4,3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","?"
152,"Iwahfuah",-3,3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
153,"Dark Nebula",-2,3,"Earle","Aotrei","Ruih","Akuusir","Kyaenkha","Akhlare","Ki  lrai'","Danvers","Siei","Yataw","Khtoiakta","Kimson's Stand","Hrorehe","Kou","Yohkui","Staai"
154,"Magyar",-1,3,"Clan","Eery","Clown","Gadarur","Nemo","New Town","Voyager","Walpurgis","Iouo","Valhalla","Swan","Fugue","Last Chance","Black Jack","Olympus","Morency"
155,"Solomani Rim",0,3,"Ultima","Suleiman","Concord","Harlequin","Alderamin","Esperan  ce","Vega","Banasdan","Albadawi","Dingir","Sol","Arcturus","Jardin","Ca  pella","Gemini","Kukulcan"
156,"Alpha Crucis",1,3,"Ximenes","McKenzie","?","?","Orichalc","?","?","?","Denebo  la","?","?","?","Ziusudra","?","?","?"
157,"Spica",2,3,"Naav","Bain","Spica","al'Ajib","Tupindur","Three Spheres","Virginis","Sline","Boreal","Flux","Farbor","Erest","Trilion",  "Tohira","Kurfane","Syzygy"
158,"Phlask",3,3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
159,"Centrax",4,3,"?","?","?","Liana","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
160,"Wrenton",5,3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
161,"Folgore",6,3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
162,"Avereguar",7,3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
163,"Kolire",8,3,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
164,"Khuaryakh",-9,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
165,"Yahehwe",-8,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
166,"Kefiykhta",-7,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
167,"Heakhafaw",-6,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
168,"Etakhasoa",-5,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
169,"Aktifao",-4,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
170,"Uistilrao",-3,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
171,"Ustral Quadrant",-2,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?"
172,"Canopus",-1,4,"?","Yanos","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","Nanfeng","?  ","?","?","?","?","?"
173,"Aldebaran",0,4,"Euxene","Aldebaran","Wovoka","Firdausi","?","?","?  ","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"
174,"Newworld",1,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
175,"Langere",2,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
176,"Drakken",3,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
177,"Lorspane",4,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
178,"Porlock",5,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
179,"Kidunal",6,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
180,"Treece",7,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
181,"Genfert",8,4,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
182,"Aftailr",-9,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
183,"Ohieraoi",-8,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
184,"Fahreahluis",-7,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","?"
185,"Hfiywitir",-6,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
186,"Irlaftalea",-5,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
187,"Teahloarifu",-4,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?","?"
188,"Ahkiweahi'",-3,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?","?"
189,"Banners",-2,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
190,"Hanstone",-1,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
191,"Malorn",0,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
192,"Hadji",1,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?"
193,"Storr",2,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?"
194,"Mikhail",3,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
195,"Darret",4,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
196,"Ataurre",5,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
197,"Katoonah",6,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
198,"Uytal",7,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?"
199,"Sporelex",8,5,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
200,"Tahahroal",-9,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?"
201,"A'yosea",-8,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
202,"Usoirarloiau",-7,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?","?"
203,"Oiah",-6,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?"
204,"Eahyaw",-5,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
205,"Ftyer",-4,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
206,"Elyetleisiyea",-3,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?","?","?"
207,"Eose'o",-2,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
208,"Holowon",-1,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
209,"Amderstun",0,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?","?"
210,"RimReach",1,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
211,"Phlange",2,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
212,"Tracerie",3,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?",  "?","?","?"
213,"Wrence",4,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
214,"Muarne",5,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?  ","?","?"
215,"Lancask",6,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"
216,"Tensk",7,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?"  ,"?","?"
217,"Aphlent",8,6,"?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","?","  ?","?","?"

Enjoy

Bill Clark
clark@bessemer.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2121
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 24 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2122



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Sector Data Question
Re: Sector data revisions
Re: TML C&W song
Re: Piracy again (not really)
Re: TML C&W song...
Re: Insurance issues
Re: Sector data revisions
Re: Insurance & Mega-corps
Re: Copyright messages
Re: Sector data revisions
Re: Pirates - an interesting novel I was reading
Vland, sector names
Re: Sector Data Question
Re: Sector Data Question
RE: Copyright messages

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:45:09 -0500
From: "Clark, William" <Clark@bessemer.com>
Subject: Sector Data Question

Does anyone know what the following codes in the remarks section of 
the data listings mean?  Any help is greatly appreciated.

An
Bl
C0
C1
C2
C3
C4
C5
C6
C7
C8
C:0
C:1
C:2
C:3
C:5
Cs
Cw
Cw
Cx
D0
D1
D2
D3
D4
D5
D6
D7
D8
D9
D:2
D:3
D:4
D:5
Dw
Ex
Ex
FA
Li
Mr
NH
Pr
Re
Rn
Rs
RsA
RsB
RsD
RsE
RsG
RsZ
Rv
Si
Sv
Sw
Wi
Xb


Bill Clark
clark@bessemer.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:56:33 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

Barry / Michael James writes:

>I like the suggestions people are making about 'logical' revisions to the
>sector data. I'd just like to say one thing: it's a big galaxy.
>In other words, there should be *illogical* (or marginally logical) worlds
>out there too. Although there won't be very many size 1 vacuum worlds with
>tens of billions of inhabitants, it will make a hell of a game when the
>players *do* make planetfall on one of them!

Try the method I use: When you run into an odd UPP then spend 15 minutes
trying to come up with an explanation for them that works and that you
haven't already used too often (Like the "exotic biosphere" to explain
agricultural planets outside life zones). If you can't come up with
something, roll a die. On a result of 1-5 you make the smallest change
necessary to make the UPP make sense. On a 6, try for another 15 minutes
and also consider reusing ideas that you've already used too often; perhaps
one of them can stand one more use. If you still can't come up with anything,
give up and change something.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:55:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: TML C&W song

>Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:21:44 -0600
>From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
>Subject: TML C&W song...

<Snip>

>        Ahem...
>
>
>        Brace yourselves.  This is not pretty.  There is a reason why I
>only have a day job.
>
>        I will not be held responsible for any damage to your sanity or
>musical sensibilities
>
>
>THE ULTIMATE TML COUNTRY & WESTERN SONG: LIFE AT POINT ONE CEE

<Song Snipage>

The Commander Reads the song and...

SPPPPPPPPLLLLLLLLLLUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTLLLLLLPPPPPHHHH!!!!!!

Congratulations Mr. Elliot
we have confirmed Coke Spewage!!!
Followed with uncontrolable fits of insane laughter.

We need more Trav Filks!!!

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:48:57 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Piracy again (not really)

Andrew <andrew.hunt@cableinet.co.uk> writes:

>I've read the piracy debate and just thought I'd add what happened on
>Wednesday, for what it's worth.
> 
>The Far Trader Angel Afloat was programmed to jump to Djinni instead of
>Regina by a member of the crew. Before the Captain could do anything she
>was hailed by a Gazelle class cruiser. Outgunned and out manoeuvred she
>decided she didn't have any choice but to be boarded.

True enough. Once you are alone in a system with a superior enemy and
empty tanks there is not much you can do about it. However, once the
would-be pirate had managed to suborn the astrogator (quick work, btw;
the Angel arrives at a starport, the kidnappee books passage, the
terrorist organisation manages to suborn the astrogator and the Gazelle
jumps to Djinni at least two days before the Angel sets off -- all in
one week. That is one impressive terrorist organisation. Well-funded too,
it can afford to keep a 350 megacredit ship on retainer... whew!), he
would have been smarter to have the traitor direct the ship to a rendevouz
point in empty space. That way he could be sure that none of the navy's
infrequent patrols nor any armed private ship would be around to interfere.

>The pirates, actually political dissidents (It's a long story) boarded
>the ship.

In that case they weren't pirates. The whole point about piracy as a means
of living is that you have to make your captures pay your expenses. If you
are backed by someone willing to pay for it, we're talking about warfare.

>The PC's offered no resistance as they took away one of the passengers.

And, hopefully, the traitor too?

>The Pirates then left the Angel to refuel at the Gas Giant and head onto
>Regina.
 
>I suppose that what I am saying is that piracy work if:
> 
>1)	The crew believe that they have no chance of winning a fight.
>2)	The crew expect to be left alive after boarding.
>3)	The crew have no attachment to whatever the pirates want.

That is the least part of it. It's true that a victim that fights back can
cause millions of credits worth of damage, so I won't say that persuading
your victim to give up without a fight is not useful, but the main problem
is engineering a situation where you can be alone with your victim long
enough for that to become an issue.
 


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:10:14 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: TML C&W song...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net> wrote:
>
>         One dark day along came JP and Leroy
> They said "TL-Fifteen Rule of Man"
>         This started a feud like Hatfield & McCoy
> With the Berrys and Harold and Ethan*
> 
> 
> *I'm not sure whether Ethan was actually involved, but his name was the
> only one that comes close to rhyming.

Heh. 

And all along I though I had a mostly un-rhymable name.
Of course, as good as it is, I won't be satisfied until 
you have Celine Dion doing it live from Memphis.

In a TL-14 Vacc Suit.

Orange Henry
- --
Ethan Henry                    ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:08:15 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Insurance issues

Steven Hudson writes:
>>the pirate is 10%. Finally, let's assume that most pirates are loopy enough
>>to only capture cargoes and that the chance of losing the ship is only 10% of
>>the chance of losing the cargo. Insurance payments would then come to an
>>addtional Cr360/T for cargo carried to the dangerous system.
> 
>   Shouldn't that be Cr 50/Dt? 

No, you have to spread the whole cost of that one ship you do lose per
thousand jumps out over all the cargo you move in those 1000 jumps.

>BTW, I still favour ship-stealing, OC.

So do I.


>>less; he may get more than 10% for the ship, but OTOH, the ship may not be
>...
>>to 10 million MCr -- less than 2 million when fenced. And that is if all five
>>victims are 600 T freighters. /...
> 
>  Assuming operation near a border, and strong contacts with organized
>crime for resale of goods, I feel that you can double those percentages
>for roughing out pirate economics. After all, tyro's will die off fast.

Obviously this is one of those famous differences of opinion. IMO a hard-to-
disguise, multi-million-credit object would be harder to get a good price on
than the average loot. Remember that the ship would be hotter than hell even
in a neighboring independent state (unless it is the Zhodani Consulate).
However greedy the local government, they still have to keep it a secret,
lest the Imperium treat them the same way it treated Tarkine. 

A classic feature of most of the crime stories I have read is that hot
merchandize is fenced for extremely low percentages. I don't know about
any factual figures.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:15:06 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

> Try the method I use: When you run into an odd UPP then spend 15 minutes
> trying to come up with an explanation for them that works and that you
> haven't already used too often (Like the "exotic biosphere" to explain
> agricultural planets outside life zones). If you can't come up with
> something, roll a die. On a result of 1-5 you make the smallest change
> necessary to make the UPP make sense. On a 6, try for another 15 minutes
> and also consider reusing ideas that you've already used too often; perhaps
> one of them can stand one more use. If you still can't come up with anything,
> give up and change something.

However, some changes (to FS data) do need to be made in any case:
- -The Canon-violating B-Pop worlds must be changed down, to A or lower
- -Those worlds, where canon info states facts that contradict FS-Data

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:13:08 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Insurance & Mega-corps

Steven Hudson writes:

>  It may be useful to keep in mind that most large organizations
>will be effectively self-insuring. If the Imperium is not to have
>large private police fleets for each mega-corp, then it implies
>either that the Imperium (or sub-sector gov'ts) has been pressured
>into providing adequate piracy suppression, or said organization
>has chosen to do so itself.

Well, we do have some data about that point. Not about megacorporate fleets,
but about Al Morai, a sector-wide company in Spinward Marches:

According to _Spinward Marches Campaign_ Al Morai is a sectorwide merchant
line with 53 3000 T merchant ships serving 52 worlds. The company also owns
4 _Gazelle_ Class ships used as route protectors to suppress pirates.

The cargo carriers cost MCr809 apiece (actually, that is the cost of a 3000 T
Tukera cargo carrier (from _The Traveller Adventure_). The Al Morai version
is almost identical. It has 59 T less cargo space and 20 more passenger
cabins, but the cost of the Tukera version can't be much off). It has 1200 T
of cargo space and carries 30 passengers. Crew size is not mentioned, but the
Tukera carrier has 15 crew. It is Jump-4 and 1G.

Operating expenses for one of these babies would be:

Crew salaries (Assuming a relevant skill level of 3 for all): 811,200/year;
Life support: 2,250,000/year (assuming 25 jumps with all cabins sold out);
Fuel: 3,000,000/year (assuming Al Morai can refine its own fuel);
Maintenance: 809,000/year; and profit and bank payments: 50,562,500/year, for
a total of Cr57,432,700.

If the ship is completely filled up each trip and the ship makes 25 trips per
year, it shifts 30,000 T of cargo and 750 passengers. Assuming each passenger
ticket costs 8 times as much as a T of freight, freight charges will be
Cr1600/T and tickets will be Cr12,800 apiece. (These figures change a bit
if you assume less than 100% utilization and more trips per year (IMO a
scheduled liner should be able to make a jump every 10 days on the average,
but that is, of course, not canonical)).

A _Gazelle_ costs MCr356 apiece. Maintaining one will cost about MCr25 apiece
(not counting administrative overhead). Four will cost MCr100. Divided out on
the operating expenses of the carriers, freight charges becomes 50 credits/T
more and tickets 400 credits more. This is about a 3% increase.

Several questions comes to mind:

1) How does four patrol ships protect Al Morai carriers in 52 different
   systems at a time? By implied threat? "Mess with our ships and in a
   few months you'll have four ships quartering the stars after you!"?
   Hardly. Or by escorting the carriers through two or three trouble spots?
   The book does say that Al Morai mostly services Class A and B starports,
   most of which would presumably have their own defenses. But if that is
   so, why dosen't Al Morai just bypass the trouble spots? Each ship gross
   close to MCr60 per year, but they only net about MCr10. If bypassing two
   or three systems will lose you 20 or 30 MCrs but allow you to save 100,
   surely that is the sensible thing to do? These are jump-4 ships, after
   all. I defy anyone to find two class A or B starports in the Spinward
   Marches that you can't connect by jump-4 routes that only pass through
   population 7+ systems or naval bases. Of course, if you already have the
   ships and have to pay for them anyway, you may as well get some use out
   of them...

2) Does Al Morai's four _Gazelles_ protect all the competition as well, or
   do they merely shift the attention of the pirates away from its own
   ships? If so, do the other merchant companies also use 3% of their gross
   to maintain escorts of their own? Akerut, a Tukera subsidiary operating
   in Aramis, an economically backward subsector, has 50 5000 T freighters
   worth just under MCr50,000. Does Akerut maintain another MCr1500 worth of
   patrol ships? What about its rival Oberlindes, said to roughly parallel
   the operations of Akerut even though they only recently moved into the
   area? Does that mean that Oberlindes have 5 or 10 times as many ships in 
   Regina, its main area of operations? Are these squadrons as efficient at
   patrolling a mere subsector as Al Morai seems to be patrolling a whole
   sector? Is Al Morai the only sector-wide company with its own patrol
   ships? If they are, how can they stay competetive? If not, how can a poor
   pirate get the peace he needs to do business? And what about the big
   boys like the megacorporations? How many ships does 3% of their gross
   amount to?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:21:08 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Copyright messages

In a message dated 97-11-24 03:14:56 EST, you write:

<<=20
 Well, I am not exactly familiar with the laws concerning such things, bu=
t
 the text says "Copyright =A91977-1996". If this does not mean that the
 copyright has expired, what exactly does it mean?
=20
  >>
Copyright 19XX means that the claimed copyright (first instance of
publication) was in the year 19XX. Some things (software operating system=
s,
role-playing games) are changed on a continuing basis, and so a range of
copyright dates are used. In the case of Traveller, some of the material =
is
claimed to date back to 1977, and newer stuff through 1996 (in this case).
Otherwise, someone holding a copyright could make minor changes and claim=
 a
new copyright date very year.

Elements of Traveller state copyright dates between 1977 and 1997 (and wi=
ll
continue to upgrade every year).

Marc Miller

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:21:17 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

In a message dated 97-11-24 02:54:19 EST, you write:

<< 
 I've basically been declassifying any planet with a TL 0 - 4 as an X,  TL
 4 - 6 as an E (Airports are noted but do not have facilities for star/space
 craft), and TL 6 - 9 as D class ports (Spaceports but not equipt for
 Starships). Exceptions are "contacted" planets (as adjusted by the the
 percentages in M0 Campaign, X's become E's etc.). Of course there are the
 occational (very rare) planet with an "Artifact" starport, but (again, IMHO)
 these are usually unaccessable to the Natives for whatever handwaved reason
 makes a good adventure.
>>

I wouldn't use X for a starport. It means interdicted, and causes some
confusion. This table comes from T4.1. 

Marc Miller


STARPORT DETAILS
Type	Quality	Yards	Repairs	Fuel	Down	Highport			
	A	Excel	Starships	Overhaul	Both	yes	note 1			
	B	Good	Spacecraft	Overhaul	Both	yes	note 1			
	C	Routine	--	Major Damage	Unrefined	yes	note 1			
	D	Poor	-	Minor Damage	Unrefined	yes	--			
	E	Frontier	-	-	-	Beacon	--			

SPACEPORT DETAILS
	F	Good	-	Minor Damage	Unrefined	yes	--			
	G	Poor	-	Superficial 	Unrefined	yes	--			
	H	Primitive	-	-	-	Beacon	--			
	Y	None	-	-	-	no	--			

	Class A and B starports for worlds with Atmosphere 2+ generally have a
Highport. Class A, B, or C starports at worlds with Atmosphere B+, or
Hydrographics A, or Government D or E can b expected to have a Highport.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:01:55 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Pirates - an interesting novel I was reading

Well, well, well... I'm actually beginning to get into my backlog...

Andy Lilly writes:

>Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk> responded to my thoughts on "Selling
>stolen cargo":
> 
>>Keep in mind that a 600 T armed ship will need to earn about 8 million
>>credits per year to keep in the black...
> 
>Er, I must have missed something. Could you (privately if it's a long
>explanation) show me the calculations for that?

The actual figure will vary a bit according to the ship design syastem
you use. A Subsidized Liner from _The Traveller Book_ (CT) costs MCr237.
A similar design I did with QSDS1.5 costs MCr166 (Without weapons; six
turrets will add 13-18 MCr depending on weapon mix). The actual bank
payments on a MCr166 ship alone is MCr8.3/year. To this comes operating
expenses (hands up those of you who thinks a pirate will want a greater
'salary' than a legitimate crewman...) and a fair return on your own
investment. Of course, and armed ship will cost about MCr180 (and MUCH
more if you install a decent computer); I forgot that orginally.

You can suppose that the ship is a 40 year old paid-up ship worth only
1/4 of the initial purchase price, but in that case you have to assume
increased repair bills (There has to be a reason why paid-up ships aren't
a better investment than new ships). The bottom line is that such a ship
should be able to gross more than MCr11/year by legitimate means. For
'the pirate life' to be competitive, it needs to pay more. For it to be
at all possible it has to pay the expenses at the very least...
 
>I think there's been a little too much emphasis on assuming that to pick the
>right cargo you have to hang about in the starport... on the odd occasion
>that pirates have appeared in my games they have generally been hitting a
>ship which they knew would be at a given place at a given time,

In order to be sure of intercepting a particular ship, the pirate has to aim
at being in the target system at least two days before the scheduled arrival
(the pirate may be a day late and the target a day early). This means that
he will arrive anytime from 4 to 0 days before the victim. On the average he
will arrive two days early and have to hang around. Not a problem if the
system have no defense forces at all, but a BIG problem otherwise.

>i.e. they've
>hit high value shipments of which they have had substantial prior data. This
>goes back to the "intelligent pirate" concept, where the pirate operation is
>planned weeks/months in advance, like a good bank robbery, rather than being
>an opportunist approach

But how often does a ship jump to or through a system with absolutely no
defense forces with a full cargo of radioactives or pharmaceuticals? This
becomes even more of a problem for the pirate when drop tanks are invented
in the late 11th Century; once drop tanks are available, a merchant with an
especially valuable cargo can just bypass the trouble spots.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:19:52 -0600
From: "Steven Bonneville" <bonnevil@ima.umn.edu>
Subject: Vland, sector names

"vanya" <vanya@partyline.net> wrote:

> The baseline would be the distance of Vland to its primary = 1.6 AUs

....which is the distance to "orbit 4", which is where Vland is supposed to
be according to the VILANI & VARGR sourcebook.  That's fair enough.

Now, given 
  * Vland is a size 9 world massing 1.45 Terras (8.65 * 10^24 kg) [V&V]
    (i.e., much less than the star)
  * Urakkalan is a F8 V star massing 1.14 Sols (2.27 * 10^30 kg) [V&V]
  * The Vilani year lasts 478.72 Imperial days (41361400 seconds) [V&V,
    but also suggested in other sources]

then, using freshman physics, I make Vland's orbital radius 1.25 AU (or
about 187000 Mm).  I think the rules in WBH work out to 1.3 AU.  This 
makes a 137000 AU deshi work out to about 110000 "Vilani AU".  A 1.6 AU
orbit seems to come out to a 692-day year. 

Oh, and yet another source of compiled sector names is at the URL
  http://www.cs.umn.edu/~bonnevil/traveller/sector-3.1.txt

It's a bit easier to read than the recent postings, and includes the 
components of Imperial domains and Zhodani provinces, as well as most
alternate names.  Strangely, I think this same subject came up about
a year ago, too....
 
  -- Steve Bonneville

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:42:14 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Sector Data Question

Clark, William wrote:
> 
> Does anyone know what the following codes in the remarks section of
> the data listings mean?  Any help is greatly appreciated.

Going from Memory
 
> An

Ancient Site present

> Bl

Can't Recall.

> C0
> C1
> C2
> C3
> C4
> C5
> C6
> C7
> C8

Indicate Chirper population, 0=1-9%, 1=10-19%, 2=20-29%... etc.

> C:0
> C:1
> C:2
> C:3
> C:5

Same as above

> Cs

Subsector Capital

> Cw
> Cw

Chirper world

> Cx

Sector Capital

> D0
> D1
> D2
> D3
> D4
> D5
> D6
> D7
> D8
> D9

Indicate Droyne population, same system as Chirpers

> D:2
> D:3
> D:4
> D:5

Same as above

> Dw

Droyne world

> Ex
> Ex
> FA
> Li
> Mr
> NH
> Pr
> Re
> Rn

Not sure

> Rs

Research Station

> RsA
> RsB
> RsD
> RsE
> RsG
> RsZ

Research Station Alpha, Beta, Delta, Epsilon, Gamma, Zeta, respectively.

> Rv
> Si
> Sv
> Sw

Can't Recall

> Wi

Wilds

> Xb

XBoat Base


Well, I tried. I'll check my material when I get home.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:15:26 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Sector Data Question

Clark, William wrote:

> Does anyone know what the following codes in the remarks section of
> the data listings mean?  Any help is greatly appreciated.
>

One of the web sites I've seen has that information detailed...the trick (of
course) is that I can't remember which one!  :(

douglas

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:02:58 -0700
From: Steve Deemer <stedee@auto-trol.com>
Subject: RE: Copyright messages

> -----Original Message-----
> From:	Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm [SMTP:jenry023@student.liu.se]
> Sent:	Sunday, November 23, 1997 3:48 PM
> To:	traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject:	Re: Copyright messages
>=20
> ><< It seems strange to me that it is required to have a text about a
> >copyright
> > that has expired, but perhaps it hasn't been updated.
> >  >>
> >
> >Expired? Copyrights last at least 50 years.
>=20
> Well, I am not exactly familiar with the laws concerning such things, but
> the text says "Copyright =A91977-1996". If this does not mean that the
> copyright has expired, what exactly does it mean?
	_______

I write software for a living and our legal department is always having to explain
US copyright law to us. All of our code has to include a copyright notice like
this one. It means that the copyright began in 1977 and that the original text=20
was changed in every year between 1977 and 1996 inclusive. Our lawyers are
always vague on exactly _what_ that means, but it seems that the copyright
clock is reset every time the text is altered by the copyright holder, so in this
case the copyright expires in (1996 + 50 years).

Copyright notices of the form "Copyright 1977,1981,1996" mean the same
thing, except that the content was only altered in the listed years. Books which
are reissued with corrected typos, for instance, have this kind of copyright notice.

	Steve Deemer
	stedee@auto-trol.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2122
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Monday, November 24 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2123



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Pirates - an interesting novel I was reading
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2119
Re: TML C&W song
re: CSC for PC's?
Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.
Re: Copyright messages
Re: Insurance & Mega-corps
Re: Copyright messages
codes
Re: Black globe gun?
From MT to FS&S
Re: Most boring worlds?
Re: using sensors for survey or science
Re: Sector data revisions
Re: Injury
Announcing: traveller word program available
Re: Copyright
[T97#2117] Sector Names
Re: Sector data revisions
Re: Injury
Re: Sector data revisions
Re: Injury
Re:  FFS2 errata: rockets

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:46:41 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Pirates - an interesting novel I was reading

>(hands up those of you who thinks a pirate will want a greater
>'salary' than a legitimate crewman...)

I ran a piracy thing in the District268 Glisten subsectors as a background
thing to distract my players from the real issues (corrution and cloak &
daggers in the Naval Intelligence). A noteworthy invention of the pirate
boss was something called a "Henchman bank". All passengers not wealthy
enough to ransom but fit enough to fight where frozen and auctioned at the
"Henchman bank".

Those who bought them used them as cannon fodder for that dangerous first
wave through the airlock. If they survived and were loyal they might be
promoted etc and some actually became pirates themselves.
Each henchman was tracked through a UV tatoo at the neck so that they could
be identified when rebought/escaped etc.

This scheme kept the crew costs down for pirates as well as made
interesting adventures for PC who lost in a pirate encounter.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 09:56:41 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2119

>>Multiple attempts to detect the same gas giant by a given ship
>>are not allowed.

>        Why not? As long as you're willing to waste the time and keep
>looking for something that may not even be there ... In fact, I'd
>think that with repeated searches you could increase your odds of
>detecting something (if it's there) with all the data piling up

The problem is probabilities; if you allow multiple attempts to accomplish
any task, you can pretty much guarantee that players will always succeed
in moderate amounts of time - only 3-4 attempts, given how painfully easy
even "Staggering" tasks are in the T4 system, even if the operator isn't
very skilled. While it's true that more data/longer exposures do improve
your chances of detection in the real world, it doesn't build up as rapidly 
as multiple die rolls do (instead, signal-to-noise goes up as sqrt(time) and
detection probability is a complex function of signal-to-noise.) 

The other way to have done the rules would be to redo the table with a complex
chart giving typical integration time to make a detection as a function 
of distance and planet orbit and sensor size, with successful skill rolls
giving only a small boost in success chances - that would be more accurate
(and almost completely deterministic) but harder to use in practice. Making
it a skill roll to detect seemed better from a rollplaying standpoint but 
does mean one has to have artificial kludges to make things work out right...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:14:06 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: TML C&W song

At 08:55 AM 11/24/97 -0500, you wrote:

><Song Snipage>
>
>The Commander Reads the song and...
>
>SPPPPPPPPLLLLLLLLLLUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTLLLLLLPPPPPHHHH!!!!!!
>
>Congratulations Mr. Elliot
>we have confirmed Coke Spewage!!!
>Followed with uncontrolable fits of insane laughter.
>
>We need more Trav Filks!!!

http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/travfilk.html

You write 'em, I'll host them...
- --
+-------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry        dberry@hooked.net |
|       http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
+-------------------------------------------+
| "The concentration of troops can be done  |
|         fast and easy, on paper."         |
|            -Field Marshal Radomir Putnik  |
+-------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 12:10:25 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: re: CSC for PC's?

On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, SD Mooney wrote:
<snip>
>The obvious solution is to change to a PowerMac (preferably with MacOS 8)
>and loose all those DOS/Win blues...
And wait HOW long for the cool games?

Jim
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 10:05:54 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Fear of a Spofulam Planet: the BD-WIMPS.

At 07:01 AM 11/24/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
>Doug Berry wrote:

>>I'd be happy to do it, just send it as one zipped file please.. makes my
>>life much easier..

>	Erk...  That's going to involve a whole lot of cutting and pasting.
>Next weekend?

No problem.. I work in the travel industry, and this is Thanksgiving week.
I'm amazed that I have energy to type.

<snip>

>>Right now, I'm planning on doing a load of weapons for ACQ.  These will
>>include MT style Recoil and Signature stats, which ACQ uses.
>
>	If you want, I can send you a few designs; I've got a few
>relatively normal ones floating around...

Go right ahead!

- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: 24 Nov 1997 17:40:04 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Copyright messages

 "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se> writes:
On the IG website, it says that the following text needs to be on all pages
(I do not now if they mean on every site, or on every subpage):
- - ----------------
Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises.
Portions of this material are Copyright =A91977-1996 Far Future Enterprises.
- - ----------------
It seems strange to me that it is required to have a text about a copyright
that has expired, but perhaps it hasn't been updated.

No, the copyright hasn't expired.

The date range refers to when the material was written, ie. when the
copyright was granted.  It will extend for fifty years (as it is owned by a
company) past that date.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:56:57 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Insurance & Mega-corps

Hans writes:

>If so, do the other merchant companies also use 3% of their gross
>   to maintain escorts of their own? Akerut, a Tukera subsidiary operating
>   in Aramis, an economically backward subsector, has 50 5000 T freighters
>   worth just under MCr50,000. Does Akerut maintain another MCr1500 worth of
>   patrol ships? What about its rival Oberlindes, said to roughly parallel
>   the operations of Akerut even though they only recently moved into the
>   area? Does that mean that Oberlindes have 5 or 10 times as many ships in
>   Regina, its main area of operations?

Nope. Oberlindes arms its merchants (Traveller Adventure) so that 3% is
probably spread amongst the ships,

and they're probbly armed with military surplus weapons like a High
Lightning Cruiser.... ;-) (this last bit tongue in cheek)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:05:01 -0800
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright messages

> Date:          Sun, 23 Nov 1997 23:48:29 +0100
> From:          "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
>
> Well, I am not exactly familiar with the laws concerning such things, but
> the text says "Copyright c1977-1996". If this does not mean that the
> copyright has expired, what exactly does it mean?

That means the material has original copyright dates ranging from 
1977 to 1996 (various parts being written at different times).  
Copyright marks make no reference to when it expires.


- --
Edward Swatschek  *  edjs@bitslayer.net
                     edjs@mindlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:17:38 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: codes

An
Bl
C0-C9: Chirpers as 10% of population
Cs: Client State of the 3rd Imperium
D0-9: Droyne as 10% of population
Li: Lucan's Imperium
Mr: Margaret's realm
Re: Regency
RsA-Z: Research Station and alpha designator
Rv: Restored Vilani Empire
Sw: Sword Worlds
Wi: Wilds
Xb: X-Boat

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 13:13:40 -0800
From: "Edward Swatschek" <edjs@mindlink.net>
Subject: Re: Black globe gun?

> Date:          Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:33:00 -0800
> From:          Giovanni <giovanni@bellatlantic.net>
>
> Does any one on the list have any info on the black globe gun?  I
> thought I remembered hearing something about this weapon years ago, but
> the info was very fuzzy.  All I do remember is that they were used for
> chewing up planets.  ...

I don't recall ever hearing of a black globe gun.  Perhaps you are 
thinking of the anti-particle accelerator described in JTAS#20, which 
could chew up planets.


- --
Edward Swatschek  *  edjs@bitslayer.net
                     edjs@mindlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:26:32 -0600
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: From MT to FS&S

Does anyone have any rules of thumb to convert MT vehicles to FS&S values?
Are there any numbers, or do I just wing it?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:26:35 -0600
From: yikes@evansville.net (Joseph R. Dietrich)
Subject: Re: Most boring worlds?

>As I reckon Kema is a marginally more 'boring' name than Bannon's World, I
>hereby nominate, Kema (Vland)
>as the most boring Traveller world ever catalogued.

I second that vote.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:51:32 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: using sensors for survey or science

>
   Hi.
   
> From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
   
> At 07:11 pm 11/22/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>Multiple attempts to detect the same gas giant by a given ship
> are not
>>allowed.
   
> 	Why not? As long as you're willing to waste the time and keep
> looking for something that may not even be there ... In fact, I'd
> think that with repeated searches you could increase your odds of
> detecting something (if it's there) with all the data piling up
> ...
   
   
   In real life, you can increase your odds of detecting something by
   piling up data, but the effect is not linear.  It goes as the square
   root of the summed data that you have.  In other words, you have to
   quadruple the amount of time to halve the uncertainty.  So if the
   players want a second die roll at the same odds, they must spend three
   more `turns' (for four turns total).  To get a third die roll, they
   must spend 5 more turns, for 9 turns total.
   
   To get an Nth die roll, they must spend 2N-1 more turns, for N^2
   turns total.
   
   Just another excuse to introduce a physics lesson to Trav discussion. 8^)
   
   -Rob
   
   PS, this does not apply if something happens to change the rate that
   the data come in, say, if the target goes active, comes out from
   behind a shadow, etc.
   
   PPS, if this is too complicated for you to implement in a game, then
   you can always set an average time for a turn, and rule that the
   players only get one roll, as was originally suggested.  After all,
   this statistical effect only illustrates what we all know already:
   that if you don't see something the first time you look, you probably
   won't see it the second time either.
   
   
   
   

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:11:19 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

Marc,

Thank you for this. I've been using the 'Port designations for T4 and will
change them according to the new T4.1 designations. Can't wait to see the
completed new rule set! Everything you've posted so far looks like they are
worth the wait!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: CardSharks@aol.com <CardSharks@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 2:32 PM
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions


>In a message dated 97-11-24 02:54:19 EST, you write:
>
>I wouldn't use X for a starport. It means interdicted, and causes some
>confusion. This table comes from T4.1.
>
>Marc Miller
>
<snipe of T4.2 list>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:07:35 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Re: Injury

>
   Hi.
   
> From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
   
> Somebody called this error a minor one? I'd like a design/combat system
> that handles starships as well as fists with the SAME rules - not for
> complexitys sake but for simplicity. Me as a ref want to just look at the
> stats for something and use it wether it is an x-ray 500 MJ laser shooting
> at butterflies at 1 AU.
   
> No separation between personal/vehicle/starship weaponry/damage/hits as
> this will only complicate things on the edges between the systems (Joe
> Stargazer shooting at the fleeing ship with his Brontosaurus plazma
> pistol).
   
   There is a superhero game called `DC Heroes' with such a system.  It
   was developed so that the same rules could be used to simulate Batman
   kicking down a door and Superman throwing Darkseid into a solar orbit.
   It's a unique and inventive system that's easy to use.  You'd need to
   tweak it a bit to replace its comic-book feel with a science-fiction
   one.  I've used it for Trav before, and it works fine as-is as long as
   you aren't getting into gear-head subtleties.  (As it stands right
   now, it gives a physically reasonable result within a factor of two or
   so.)
   
   DC Heroes is currently out of print.  As of two years ago, it was sold by
   Mayfair Games.
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:34:56 -0600
From: Chris Olson <Chris_Olson@itd.sterling.com>
Subject: Announcing: traveller word program available

Greetings, fellow Travellers!

Just read the flurry (ok, two) messages about Traveller Word Generation
programs, and lo and behold, I've written one of those in delphi for the
PC (Not that it was hard, mind you, just that I just happen to had
already written it).

Anyway, follow the following link:

http://www.novia.net/~pern/chris/index.html

And download it!


Later, with more!

Chris Olson

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:12:11 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Copyright

At 12:12 am 11/24/97 -0000, you wrote:
>who is was who said, 'Copyrights last as long as you defend
them' but if

	Not true--TRADEMARKS last as long as you defend them (ask
Bayer). Copyrights remain legally enforceable for their life.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj

- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:10:04 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2117] Sector Names

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997 00:17:14 -0500, CardSharks@aol.com (Marc
Miller - yes, _that_ Marc Miller) wrote:

>Subject: Re: Anyone done a complete sector list with positions?

>Early Draft of the sector names.

[snipped]

Marc, I don't know if you're aware of it, or if perhaps you've
rejected it for some reason, but Jim Vassilakos's GALACTIC
program has a fairly complete list of sector names and locations,
including multiple languages for sectors that were named by
multiple stellar powers.  I don't remember Jim's URL for it, but
I do know that you can get it by visiting Freelance Traveller and
following the links to INFORMATION and then Traveller Support
Software for Your Computer.  It doesn't quite use the same
coordinate system that you did in your post, although the "sign"
of the coordinates follow the same pattern (i.e., "increasing"
toward Hiver space).

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:15:17 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

At 02:56 pm 11/24/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Try the method I use: When you run into an odd UPP then spend 15 minutes
>trying to come up with an explanation for them that works and that you
>haven't already used too often (Like the "exotic biosphere" to explain
>agricultural planets outside life zones). If you can't come up with
>something, roll a die. On a result of 1-5 you make the smallest change
>necessary to make the UPP make sense. On a 6, try for another 15 minutes
>and also consider reusing ideas that you've already used too often; perhaps
>one of them can stand one more use. If you still can't come up with anything,
>give up and change something.

	Don't give up too early--post a brief challenge here on the
list! If we can come up with Pelvic-Mounted Plasma Pistols and
Traveller Country songs, surely somebody can come up with a good
solution to your dilemma ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:53:21 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Injury

At 03:42 pm 11/23/97 PST, you wrote:

>>         I recall Heinlein used infrasonics to induce feelings
of unease
>> in the invaders in one of his old, old books, but I'd never
heard
>> of any other effects. Got any more detailed information (I may
>> want to build a small sonic obliterator to use on certain
people
>> at work ...).
>
>What I recall is that the interesting effects are in the sub 20
Hz
>range. Depending on the frequency, you got epilietic type fits,
nausea,
>fear or even death (or so I'm told). 
>
>The problem is the *wavelength*. At 20 Hz, the wavelength is
something
>on the order of 50 feet. Which makes designing an emitter fun.
And
>means that it tends to diffract around barriers.

	Gotcha ... so the small sonic obliterator is out. Problem, but
not a major one. I'll just have to smuggle the parts in in my
briefcase. Lessee, one foot parts, one per day, 50 feet ...
50days! And the diffracting around barriers sounds even more fun!
Oh, wait. Darn it! Don't have a 50 foot long space in which to
put it ... unless maybe under the floorboards.

	Where's the creative genius of Famille Spofulam when you need a
pocket sized gene-pool cleaner?
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 18:28:12 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

Marc Miller writes:

someone other than Marc said:

>> I've basically been declassifying any planet with a TL 0 - 4 as an X,  TL
>> 4 - 6 as an E (Airports are noted but do not have facilities for star/space
>> craft), and TL 6 - 9 as D class ports (Spaceports but not equipt for
>> Starships). Exceptions are "contacted" planets (as adjusted by the the
>> percentages in M0 Campaign, X's become E's etc.). Of course there are the
>> occational (very rare) planet with an "Artifact" starport, but (again, IMHO)
>> these are usually unaccessable to the Natives for whatever handwaved reason
>> makes a good adventure.

   I always assumed in the *Third Imperium setting* that the starport and
the local TL didn't necessarily have a correlation.  Thus if you had a world
that had a TL of 6 and a starport of 'A' because either an outside
corporation or the local inhabitants imported all the technology necessary
to make the starport function.  Even if it is a low population system, this
can be explained away as the employees of the starport are not local
inhabitants, they are imported workers who stay in the system for a fixed
period of time and then rotate out.  Naturally if the system were to be cut
off from the rest of interstellar society (by war, etc.), the starport would
rapidly degrade until it reached a more "natural" state for the local TL,
which in the case of TL 6 would mean that class 'A' starport would probably
drop to 'D'.

>I wouldn't use X for a starport. It means interdicted, and causes some
>confusion. This table comes from T4.1. 

   The problem with using the 'X' designation in this way is what happens,
let's say, when you start developing scenarios and background data for a
campaign that takes place in the Aldebaran Sector at the time the Solomani
begin their expansion into it?  All of the worlds they are going to
encounter are beyond the edge of civilization, therefore don't have marker
beacons, or anything else to designate a landing area.  How does a referee
treat such a world?  Would it therefore have a UWP of Yxxx000-0 (where 'x'
is some number)?  And what of the designation 'Red Zone', 'Amber Zone', etc?
I realize that historically these were issued by the TAS, but shouldn't
there by another way designating interdicted worlds?

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:10:01 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Injury

At 08:00 pm 11/23/97 -0600, you wrote:
>At 08:17 AM 11/22/97 -0700, Dave Golden wrote:
>>snip<
>>	One example of this is the problem with the original CSC
>>damage/armor relationship. It resulted in a 250kg HE bomb being
>>able to penetrate almost a quarter of a kilometer of solid
stone.
>>Now, an HE bomb does quite a bit of damage, but it won't
>>penetrate solid stone THAT well. Instead, it'll make a crater a
>>meter or two across.
>
>Dave,
>It depends on the type of stone, sandstone, limestone, or
granite.<G>

	Agreed--but 240 meters in _anything?

>A 250kg will make a larger crater than 2 meters across in *stone*. The 5
>inch Naval Canon Mk 45 projo weighing in at 75 pounds(34kg) will make a
>crater over 4 meters across in *stone*. I have seen it do it. The 16 inch

	Interesting. What kind of stone? I based my original disbelief
of the CSC results on a rather nifty program left over from my
first assignment--calculates cratering, projectile damage, etc.
for both small nuclear and HE explosions in earth over stone. I
set the earth thickness to 0, and came up with a MUCH smaller
number for crater radius than 240m. Or perhaps it was crater
depth--the point is, a damage system that doesn't account for the
differences between penetration, blast, energy and cratering-type
damage can lead to some ridiculous numbers. And I can guarantee
you that none of the examples you provided will penetrate to a
bunker under 240m of granite. The US Air Force just updated its
deep-penetration bunker killer, and it's a nuke with quite a bit
more destructive capability* than a 250kg iron bomb AND a
specially-designed casing to ensure it penetrates quite a ways
into dirt or soft surface materials before detonating.

	As for that being a minor quirk, any of the people who run more
military oriented or mercenary type campaigns might disagree.
It's one thing to apply common sense to the TNE rule that a
shotgun in the mouth has a 15% chance of missing. It's quite
another thing to give completely bogus results to players with NO
way of estimating the real results (which you can do with the
shotgun; quite a bit harder to do with large explosions ...)

* Officially, somewhere between 1 and 999kT, which is all the AF
will say about _any_ nuke.



- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:33:28 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re:  FFS2 errata: rockets

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:

> Here's some reasonably official errata, including corrected fuel 
> consumptions for the various low-tech rockets, and a new drive type 
> (AND) designed to make missiles practical again.
> 
> Table 166:
> 
> TL      Type    Thrust  Price   Fuel    Ftype
>                 kn/m3   MCr/m3  m3/hr/kN
> 5       Liq     300     2.00    1.28    LRF
> 6       Hyp Liq 850     1.83    1.22    Hyp
> 6       Liq     500     1.50    1.16    LRF
> 6       HDLiq   650     1.50    0.86    Perox
> 6       HDLiq   650     1.50    0.86    Perox
> 7       Hyp Liq 930     1.20    1.22    Hyp
> 7       Liq     850     0.67    1.19    LRF
> 7       HDLiq   1080    0.53    0.86    Perox
> 7       LH Liq  650     2.00    2.54    HRF
> 8       Hyp Liq 1320    1.00    1.14    Hyp
> 8       Liq     770     0.83    1.06    LRF
> 8       HDLiq   1250    1.00    0.80    Perox
> 8       LH Liq  730     2.67    2.40    HRF
> 
> Table 167
> 7       NTR     80      8.00    5.94    LHyd
> 8       NTR     100     10.00   5.90    LHyd
> 8       AdvNTR  120     12.00   4.17    LHyd
> 9       GCNTR   50      16.67   2.52    LHyd
> 9  Exp. Fusion  30      3.50    0.0072  LHyd
> 10      Fusion  90      0.35    0.0049  LHyd
> 10      Fusion  90      0.35    0.0049  LHyd
> 10      AND     1100    0.80    0.04    D/T water

I have some problems with some of the figures for nuclear rockets.  Taking
into account the differences in density of HRF and LHyd (0.3 vs 0.07) the
thrust to reaction mass ratios for some of the nuclear rockets are a bit
to low. 

The Isp of Lhyd LOX rockets is around 450 seconds for conventional, solid
core nuclear rockets it's around 800 Adjusting for fuel densities the
difference in thrust per kg of fuel/reaction mass between a TL 8 NTR & a
TL 8 LH chemical rocket is 0.57.  450/800 = 0.56, so we are on target
here. 

However, I'm assuming that the TL 8 advanced NTR is a liquid core nuclear
rocket.  The Isp of such a rocket is around 1500 seconds. The fuel
consumption should be more like 3.1 m3/hr/kN not the 4.17 listed. 

Also, the gas core nuclear rocket is rather under-powered.  All the
figures I've seen have rated it as having an Isp of between 2500 & 10,000
seconds.  Even at 2500 it's fuel consumption should be 1.9, and if we
assume it's performance is more like 5000 seconds we get a fuel
consumption of around 0.95 m3/hr/kN.  This doesn't seem unreasonable since
we are talking about TL 9 here. 

Comments?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2123
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2124



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Web Site
Re: using sensors for survey or science
Free traders & econ 101
Re: Sector Data Question
Re: Black globe gun?
Detection tasks
Re: using sensors for survey or science
Re: Sector data revisions
Re: Free traders & econ 101
SV: Traveller-digest V1997 #2122
Re: Copyright messages
Re: Leaked memo to "Uncie Hengie"
Re:  Starports
Re: Sector data revisions
Solomani Rim project update

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:40:41 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Web Site

OK! I've got my web site back on line. I just hope there's no
more hidden surprises left.

Now I've got a request (beg) for any of you graphically gifted
geniuses out there--would you be interested in creating a theme
for the site? That's one of the neat new features of FrontPage,
but all I've been able to do is kludge something clumsy together.
I'd really like to have a snazzier, futuristic look than what
I've got.

Basically, a FrontPage theme consists of the following elements:
	* Buttons used for vertical navigation bars: these are blank
buttons (FP automatically adds the appropriate text in the
specified font). Up to three different buttons can be used:
normal, "pushed" (used when displaying the button for the current
page), and hover (used when the cursor is hovering over a button)
	* Buttons used for horizontal navigation bars: same as above,
except the buttons are laid out horizontally
	* Buttons used for "tape-deck" style button bars: Next,
Previous, Parent and Home
	* Buttons used for "top bar" style bars: used for a navigation
bar that points to the top-level pages regardless of where you
are.
	* Horizontal divider that replaces horizontal rules
	* Banner image, used for the title images
	* Three different bullet images, used for different levels of
indent
	* Background image, used for the foundation--I like a starry
background, but the one I've got is too busy.

If you're interested, email me. Thanks!
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 17:31:34 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: using sensors for survey or science

At 04:51 pm 11/24/97 -0500, you wrote:
>   PPS, if this is too complicated for you to implement in a
game, then
>   you can always set an average time for a turn, and rule that
the
>   players only get one roll, as was originally suggested.
After all,
>   this statistical effect only illustrates what we all know
already:
>   that if you don't see something the first time you look, you
probably
>   won't see it the second time either.

	Actually, I prefer something like this to an arbitrary "you can
only try once"--especially if it's something where looking longer
really does make a difference. Up to a point, of course. But to
exaggerate, if I look for a planet for 1 second, my chances of
finding it are miniscule. But compound those 1 second data
collects into hours, and days, and the odds increase. Agreed, not
linearly, but off the top of my head, your rules sound fair.
It'll still have close to the same effect--players won't sit
there rolling dice until they get the answer they want*--but it
doesn't sound so arbitrary.

*Especially when they don't know whether they're failing because
the rolls are going against them, or there's really nothing
there. In addition to using some form of uncertain task, this is
another reason I like task systems with a fixed number of dice. I
can just tell them to roll, and tell me what level task the roll
would succeed at. That way I don't have to give them _any_
information about how hard it really is (especially if it's not
possible at all!).
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 19:17:25 -0600
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
Subject: Free traders & econ 101

OK,
 I've fought with the various (excellent) spreadsheets long enough. Is
there any way to put a ******* free/far trader in the black using SSDS
_or_ FFS2 rules???? Catch- NO effing subsidy... The classic canonical A2
would not be built in the universe of T4. Period. (Of course, I'm an old
socialist, from almost as far back as I've been in the US Army (!!!)
(what, don't like contradictions? Too bad, so sad, ... ;'P
))

Seriously, can it be done in the current rules or does this (too)
require a hand wave?

- --
William A. Barnett-Lewis
wlewis@mailbag.com
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

"We are artists.  Poets paint motion  and light.  Historians paint
stills.  It can be dangerous to get history from a poet.  It can also be
the greatest blessing."
      Larry Miller Murdock
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:39:26 -0500 (EST)
From: CardSharks@aol.com
Subject: Re: Sector Data Question

In a message dated 97-11-24 11:54:43 EST, you write:

<< 
 Does anyone know what the following codes in the remarks section of 
 the data listings mean?  Any help is greatly appreciated.

Some answers off the top of my memory.

Marc Miller

 An  Ancient Site
 Bl
 C0 Small Chirper Population
 C1 10% Chirper population
 C2
 C3
 C4
 C5
 C6
 C7
 C8 80% Chirper Population
 C:0
 C:1
 C:2
 C:3
 C:5
 Cs  Client State (of the Imperium).
 Cw
 Cw
 Cx
 D0 Small Droyne Population
 D1 10% Droyne Population
 D2
 D3
 D4
 D5
 D6
 D7
 D8
 D9 90% Droyne Population
 D:2
 D:3
 D:4
 D:5
 Dw
 Ex
 Ex
 FA
 Li
 Mr
 NH
 Pr
 Re
 Rn
 Rs Research Station
 RsA Research Station Alpha
 RsB
 RsD
 RsE
 RsG Research Station Gamma
 RsZ
 Rv
 Si
 Sv
 Sw
 Wi
 Xb
 
  >>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 20:57:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Dave Biggs <dbiggs@magicnet.net>
Subject: Re: Black globe gun?

At 01:13 PM 11/24/97 -0800, you wrote:
>> Date:          Sun, 23 Nov 1997 00:33:00 -0800
>> From:          Giovanni <giovanni@bellatlantic.net>
>>
>> Does any one on the list have any info on the black globe gun?  I
>> thought I remembered hearing something about this weapon years ago, but
>> the info was very fuzzy.  All I do remember is that they were used for
>> chewing up planets.  ...
>
>I don't recall ever hearing of a black globe gun.  Perhaps you are 
>thinking of the anti-particle accelerator described in JTAS#20, which 
>could chew up planets.

He maybe confused with the Black Glode generator that was equiped of the
Keniter (sp?) crusiers.  They were one of the original ships listed in the
original Trav. release what 15 almost 20 years ago.  But that was a
defensive weapon.  It was like a giant heat sink, it bleed the laser fire
out into space and protected the ship.

Dave Biggs --------------------------->dbiggs@magicnet.net
"Sauron" on FIBS, NOBS, GG, and IBS
"stupid races don't build starships" -- Robert Hinlein

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 97 22:43:41 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Detection tasks

On 11/24/97 at 09:56 AM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>>>Multiple attempts to detect the same gas giant by a given ship
>>>are not allowed.

>>        Why not? As long as you're willing to waste the time and keep
>>looking for something that may not even be there ... In fact, I'd
>>think that with repeated searches you could increase your odds of
>>detecting something (if it's there) with all the data piling up

I agree, multiple attempts should be allowed, but whether they make
detetion easier or not should be up to the GM..circumstances.

>The problem is probabilities; if you allow multiple attempts to accomplish
>any task, you can pretty much guarantee that players will always succeed
>in moderate amounts of time - only 3-4 attempts, given how painfully easy
>even "Staggering" tasks are in the T4 system, even if the operator isn't
>very skilled. 

Now, doesn't that indicate to you that "Staggering" tasks are too easy (no
I won't start that debate again ;-), and/or that detection is too easy at
too long a range?  That one I might have to crank up.  Anyway, some sorts
of tasks might be "Impossible" or "Hopeless" or just plain impossible, and
the players can make as many attempts on an impossible one as they want and
never succeed.

The other part of it is the time element, each detection attempt might take
a full 30 minutes..or multiples of 30 minutes..depending on what you are
trying to detect, the range, etc.  Heck, you might be scanning only parts
of the sky on each attempt and it takes X scans to cover the entire
elliptic.  If each attempt takes an hour and you have to make 3, 4, 5 or
more attempts for *each* "gas giant" detection, well, I could live with
that.



Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 97 23:14:48 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: using sensors for survey or science

On 11/24/97 at 05:31 PM,  "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net> said:

>*Especially when they don't know whether they're failing because the rolls
>are going against them, or there's really nothing there. In addition to using >some form of uncertain task, this is another reason I like task systems with a >fixed number of dice. I can just tell them to roll, and tell me what level task >the roll would succeed at. That way I don't have to give them _any_
>information about how hard it really is (especially if it's not possible
>at all!).

There *is* an advantage in rolling a fixed number of dice, but there are
ways to get around the problems.

In a FTF game where the players are rolling dice in an uncertain situation
I won't tell them exactly how hard a task is.  I'll tell them to roll some
number of dice, and I'll roll several at the same time. Then I might use
their roll plus some of mine, or just mine, or just their's or do something
else entirely to determine what happened.  A quick glance at the second
hand of the wall clock is good for all sorts of randomization.  ;-)

My rule when it comes to just how hard tasks are..and just how skilled PC's
really are for that matter..is lie, Lie LIE!  ;-> Never tell them how hard
something *really* is unless they would know, but always be willing to tell
them how hard they *think* some task is.  Never tell them just how good
they are at something, but always be willing to tell them how good they
*think* they are.

Ah, hum!  I was, of course, following my rule in the previous paragraph.
Really! ;->
   

Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:24:48 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

Harold,

I think we are more in agreemnet than it seems. I am speaking from the stand
point of an early M0 campaign, where most of the worlds haven't been
recontacted yet. The current data from The M0 Campaign (First Survey) seems
to reflect a much higher percentage of construction capable 'ports on low
tech planets than is (IMHO) reasonable when layed out againt the percentages
of contact worlds in given sectors, also form M0 data. I merely wahted to
throw this point out for consideration if the data is EVER reconstructed. I
also think it reflects the problem with a world generation system that was
'built' for a Classic Traveller universe, where most of the worlds have
already had some contact with starfareing races.

At the end of the Long Night, I would expect to see far more planets in the
"degraded" catagory than not. Yet the available data, and the random
genration rules, don't really reflect this.

Of course this is all in MVHO, and filtered through the eyes of my own
campaign setting, so it's more in the "food for thought" catagory.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Harold D. Hale <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 9:52 PM
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions


<snip of my original message>

>   I always assumed in the *Third Imperium setting* that the starport and
>the local TL didn't necessarily have a correlation.  Thus if you had a
world
>that had a TL of 6 and a starport of 'A' because either an outside
>corporation or the local inhabitants imported all the technology necessary
>to make the starport function.  Even if it is a low population system, this
>can be explained away as the employees of the starport are not local
>inhabitants, they are imported workers who stay in the system for a fixed
>period of time and then rotate out.  Naturally if the system were to be cut
>off from the rest of interstellar society (by war, etc.), the starport
would
>rapidly degrade until it reached a more "natural" state for the local TL,
>which in the case of TL 6 would mean that class 'A' starport would probably
>drop to 'D'

<snip>

>Regards,
>
>Harold
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 00:38:36 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Free traders & econ 101

Sheeesh!
And all this time I thought it was just me! 20 designs thrown out and still
haven't had ONE that could support itself! The closest I've come it my
1000000 std ship, which only makes out if it can clear all 700,000 tons out
of it's holds at EVERY port of call and then refill them for the next stop!

Mayby the pricing is a little skewed ? Anyone working on this? I'm very
interested as well.

Mike Peter
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, November 24, 1997 10:34 PM
Subject: Free traders & econ 101


>OK,
> I've fought with the various (excellent) spreadsheets long enough. Is
>there any way to put a ******* free/far trader in the black using SSDS
>_or_ FFS2 rules???? Catch- NO effing subsidy... The classic canonical A2
>would not be built in the universe of T4. Period. (Of course, I'm an old
>socialist, from almost as far back as I've been in the US Army (!!!)
>(what, don't like contradictions? Too bad, so sad, ... ;'P
>))
>
>Seriously, can it be done in the current rules or does this (too)
>require a hand wave?
>
>--
>William A. Barnett-Lewis
>wlewis@mailbag.com
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>"We are artists.  Poets paint motion  and light.  Historians paint
>stills.  It can be dangerous to get history from a poet.  It can also be
>the greatest blessing."
>      Larry Miller Murdock
>-------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 06:32:43 +0100
From: "Mats Erlandsson" <mats.erlandsson@mailbox.swipnet.se>
Subject: SV: Traveller-digest V1997 #2122

- -----Ursprungligt meddelande-----
Fr=E5n: Traveller-digest <owner-traveller-digest@MPGN.COM>
Till: traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM
<traveller-digest@Phaser.ShowCase.MPGN.COM>
Datum: den 24 november 1997 21.26
=C4mne: Traveller-digest V1997 #2122

>
>Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 08:45:09 -0500
>From: "Clark, William" <Clark@bessemer.com>
>Subject: Sector Data Question
>
>Does anyone know what the following codes in the remarks section of
>the data listings mean?  Any help is greatly appreciated.
>
>An
>( ..snip...)
>Xb
>
>
>Bill Clark
>clark@bessemer.com

Some of the codes looks likes Allegiance codes. Like FA ("Fa" is the
official designation) -
Fedeartion of Arden etc.

These are the codes i got:
Ag  Agricultural World.
An  Ancient Site (Known or discovered).
As  Asteroid Belt.
Ba  Barren World.
C1  10% Chirper Population.
C2  20% Chirper Population.
C3  30% Chirper Population.
C4  40% Chirper Population.
C5  50% Chirper Population.
C6  60% Chirper Population.
C7  70% Chirper Population.
C8  80% Chirper Population.
C9  90% Chirper Population.
Co  Colony World.
Cp  Subsector Capital.
Cx  Sector or Regional Capital.
D1  10% Droyne Population.
D2  20% Droyne Population.
D3  30% Droyne Population.
D4  40% Droyne Population.
D5  50% Droyne Population.
D6  60% Droyne Population.
D7  70% Droyne Population.
D8  80% Droyne Population.
D9  90% Droyne Population.
Dc  Duchy of Oasis
De  Desert World.
Ex  Exile Camp.
Fa  Farming World.
Fc  Facinating World.
Fl  Fluid Hydrographics.
Hi  High Population World.
Ic  Ice-Capped World.
In  Industrial World.
Lo  Low Population World.
Mb  Military Base.
Mi  Mining World.
Mr  Military Rule.
Na  Non-Agricultural World.
Nh  Non-Hiver population in Hiver Space.
Ni  Non-Industrial World.
Nk  Non-K'kree population in K'kree Space.
Nv  Naval Base.
Po  Poor World.
Pr  Prison Camp.
Re  Ressearch Lab (Reserve ?).
Ri  Rich World.
Rs  Research Station.
Sc  Scout Base.
St  Steppeworld (K'kree).
Tn  Terran-Norm World.
Tp  Terran-Prime World.
Va  Vacuum World.
Vt  Vargr Trading Station.
Wa  Water World.
Xb  Xboat Station.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 21:51:07 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Copyright messages

In mail you write:

>><< It seems strange to me that it is required to have a text about a
>>copyright
>> that has expired, but perhaps it hasn't been updated.
>>  >>
>>
>>Expired? Copyrights last at least 50 years.
>
> Well, I am not exactly familiar with the laws concerning such things, but
> the text says "Copyright =A91977-1996". If this does not mean that the
> copyright has expired, what exactly does it mean?

It means that different parts have different copyright dates, and the
dates cover the range from 1977 to 1996.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:31:17 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Leaked memo to "Uncie Hengie"

Ian or Katts wrote:

>This is Cousin Ditzie here. It's boooooring here at Compliance. A couple of
>us saw the tapes about Winnie and the fun she was having, so we put our
>heads together.
>
>I reckon we could take a teensy weensie baby particle accelerator and build
>it to stay within the hunnerd kilos or so you can carry in a BDE body
>BeeeeDeeeEeeee body suit. And weeeeee reckon the beam would stay together
>to six hunnerd kilometers or so.
[snip]
>So Uncie, can we build one ? Can we can we can we can we ???
>
>Your loving cousein,
>
>Ditzie

Pleeeze pleeeze pleeeze build one!  If that nasty old grouch Hengie won't
front up for the parts and labor and insurance costs, the Sayat Bureau for
Oversight and Operationalization of Munitions would be all too delighted to
support this promising technology development initiative.

SayBOOM is currently fooling around with the FF&S1 spreadsheets from Antti
Lahtinen's site, trying to finalize a design for the Laser-Assisted
Biological Rubble Yield System (LABRYS), a standard-issue longarm.  Yes,
<yawn>.  Can someone gearier than me say whether FF&S2 has any significant
improvments in this sequence?  I'm still wondering whether it's worth the
money... despite the really horrible things I can see all too clearly being
done with it by others on this list.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang Homepage: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:58:01 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re:  Starports

In my own work, I generally ignore the requirement for a beacon for a Class
E starport....my own bastardised definition goes something like:

E:    Frontier or no facilities - a beacon may or may not be present.
X:    Interdicted world         - facilities may be present, but the world
is
                                  currently interdicted.

Doesn't quite fit in with the published rules, but seems to work.  Also
allows a little more scope for the much maligned D class starport - these
tend to pop up a lot as 'crudports'.

Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
Clubs!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 22:15:49 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

In mail you write:

> I've basically been declassifying any planet with a TL 0 - 4 as an X,  TL
> 4 - 6 as an E (Airports are noted but do not have facilities for star/space
> craft), and TL 6 - 9 as D class ports (Spaceports but not equipt for
> Starships).

Sorry, but by the definition of E *any* plamnet can have one once
contacted. The ancient Egyptians could have managed a damn good type E.
One almost up to D standards, except for the lack of fuel (though if
you count water as unrefined fuel, they could manage a D by running
canals to the port.

Type D on a lot of planets (again, once contacted) can be any of a
number of things depending on TL. Examples:

A major seaport can handle starships easily. And they'll have cargo
facilities. Ditto for a major rail hub. If the US had been contacted in
the 1870s or 80 I fully expect that the starport would have either been
in Kansas City (major railhead) or Chicago (major railhead *and* major
port).

Airports can handle even starships pretty well. They,ll just set aside
an area off to one side for the VTOL types, and the horizontal landing
and takeoff types can be integrated into the existing traffic patterns
with a bit of work.

Note that in *all* these cases the locals can modify something they
already have to turn it into a starport, with varying degrees of
difficulty. Concrete dates back to Roman times. And the Romans (though
not the Egyptians) could have gotten around the lack of handy bedrock
by using the same techniques they used to build their roads. 

They "big" change is that for TLs where the locals don't have radio,
you either have to give them a radio, or arrange for heliograph type
signals. 

I rather like the idea of having the infrequent starship vists use a
facility that was built for *existing* traffic, and just had the
landing facilities tacked on.

I figure that during the Long night there will have been *very*
infrequent visits from other systems that haven't lost starflight
capability, and want to trade.

Figure Earth at the various TLs if it had starships visiting at
intervals of from 5 years to 50 years. There'd be provisions made for
them, because the visits would be *important*, but they'd mostly be
"add-ons". 

And I rather like the idea of the players contacting the starport and
getting hold of the seaport's portmaster, or the guy in charge of rail
traffic at a railhead. Getting the tower at an airport isn't as much of
a shock.

And getting a *real* low tech port (say the sort of thing the Romans or
Egyptians might have built) could be *real* interesting. "Land in the
middle of the square formed by the pyramids, please...."

Starport facility types
TL	type	facilities
- --	----	-------------------------
0	E	dedicated chunk of cleared rock. Will have "markers"
		such as pyramids, or at the very least something like
		the Nazca lines or megaliths such as at Stonehenge.
		Port buildings will be wood, stone, adobe, etc.
1	E	May be coexistent with seaport or river port. May be
		cleared bedrock, or constructed of worked
		stone/concrete over *very* well made foundations (Roman
		roads had foundations of various grades of stone that
		went almost 10 feet into the ground!) Primitive cranes
		for cargo handling, wagons and carts for moving cargo.
	D	As for E except that there is an ample water supply
		piped in for use as unrefined fuel.
2	D	Coexists with sea or river port. Water piped in for
		fuel. Landing field well constructed of stone/concrete,
		with some understanding of things like blast
		deflectors. Cargo handling gear is muscle or water
		powered.
3	D	May be at sea/river port *or* at rail junction. Steam
		power used for cargo handling. Actual hydrogen gas or
		possibly even liquid hydrogen available. Some
		electrical work, and machine tool work available.
4	D	Coexists with river/sea port, or rail junction. May
		have dirigible service available. Reinforced concrete
		used. Electrical power available.
5	D	Coexists with airfield. Radio used. 
6	D	Coexists with airport or possibly space launch
		facilities. Some electronics and computer facilities
		present. LH2 definitely avialable, as are fissionables
		and even deuterium, tritium and purified hydrogen (ie
		no D or T). Would be C or even B port if full repair
		facilities were present.

After TL 7, the locals *definitely* have at least orbital flight, and
thus should count as a "B" port.

Note that in the above, I'm assuming that everything except ship to
ground comm is *native*. At TL 5 and 6, even *that* is native. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:32:09 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Solomani Rim project update

The next version of the project is now available on my Web pages as a Word
'97 document, or as HTML.  Note that only the Word doc has been checked for
formating - the HTML is a straight conversion using MS Word (and given
Microgouge's reputation for 'features', I make no representations as to it's
quality).

Major changes include:

* All 16 subsector maps are now present, UPP data has been hived off into a
separate section.
* _Some_ historical material detailing the latter days of the Rule of Man
and the Long Night
  Big gaps in here still though.
* Added info on the 'Hellfire Movement' - by Andrew Vallance
* Cosmetic, grammatical and spelling changes

Once again, if anyone interested could take a look, and let me know what
they like/don't line, as well as point out any errors, inconsistencies and
violations of the 'c' word, I'd be grateful.

Point yer browser to:

http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/Traveller/solrim_intro.html

or alternatively, to

http://www.iinet.net.au/~mickb/Traveller/trav_splash.html

and have a look around at my (sparsely populated) pages.


If you need the document in another format, let me know...


Thanx,

Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
Clubs!

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2124
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2125



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2119
re: sector names
Vilani Society, a commentary
Re: Sector data revisions
L.A.B.R.Y.S.?
re: Naval Ships and Transponders
High Tech Treasures...
Re: Dulinor and Strephon
Re: Low-Frequency weapons
Re: Copyright messages
Re: Low-Frequency weapons
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: Alternate star mapping
Re: Vilani Society, a commentary
Re: Sector Data Question
Re: Looking For
Linking up the Virtual Archive
Re: [T97#2117] Sector Names
Free traders & econ 101
Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2123
re: Detection tasks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:59:43 +0000
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2119

>The other way to have done the rules would be to redo the table with a complex
>chart giving typical integration time to make a detection as a function
>of distance and planet orbit and sensor size, with successful skill rolls
>giving only a small boost in success chances - that would be more accurate
>(and almost completely deterministic) but harder to use in practice. Making
>it a skill roll to detect seemed better from a rollplaying standpoint but
>does mean one has to have artificial kludges to make things work out right...
>
>Bruce

Or you could make the task roll result an (hidden) modifier to sensitivity:
Outstanding success: +1
Success:             +0.5
Failure:              0
Spectacular failure: -1

If the player wants to continue integrating just add to signal for time
integrated. I use something like this for all sensore tasks to simplify
things - especially when rolling for NPCs.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:34:50 +0000
From: Timothy.Collinson@solent.ac.uk
Subject: re: sector names

Steve Bonneville wrote:

>Oh, and yet another source of compiled sector names is at the URL
>  http://www.cs.umn.edu/~bonnevil/traveller/sector-3.1.txt
>It's a bit easier to read than the recent postings, and includes the
>components of Imperial domains and Zhodani provinces, as well as most
>alternate names.


Yes, much easier to read (and using the system I 'invented' for my
bibliography - so much for originality, ah well), Steve, you've compiled an
excellent list here.


One comment (as you ask for them!), the end of the file has this quote:
/quote
"Sigma Zephyrus" sector has now been located at (-5 -3).  This is the only
example I know of where a sector is named in print which has never had its'
location specified in print.  [Private communication with Clay Bush, HIWG.]
/endquote

I believe I may have another for you.  'Mission to Zephor' (a Group One
'adventure' - actually more just a world description) mentions the Xova II
sector which I've never seen located anywhere.  Anyone have any ideas?
(I've always worked on the assumption it doesn't actually fit into the
'standard' map in much the same way as my own Astoria Reaches is a
'standalone' sector).

Just in case it helps

tc

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 09:23:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Vilani Society, a commentary

     As my research of the past few days into the sum total of available
information on the Vilani for the TravLang lists development of their culture
and history has passed I've come to develop something of a dislike for them.
They're arrogant, silently superior and more importantly so consumed with the
conservation of barely workable traditions and customs they'd shoot the
solution a problem and then, as per tradition, pound it into a greasy puddle
of goo on the ground and then immolate that for good measure!  I find I have
little if any sympathy for them and their supposed plight, especially if you
read between the lines of the historical timeline I've compiled to point out
the obvious excesses they've committed and will commit throughout the history
of the 3I, which will eventually lead to the 3I's downfall and destruction.
     BUT...  Something I've been mulling of in light of the historical
timeline I uncovered is this...

> -300,000 or thereabouts: Final War was waged.
> The Vilani were intelligent enough to notice this BTW.  They have legends
> of wars amongst the Gods, terrible destruction and the god's occassional
> intervention in Human affairs.  From other sources we know that the Final
> War last about 1,000 years using TL21+ weapons and ranged across all of
> Known Space and perhaps beyond.
     Now think about the implications of this for a moment.  Around 300,000
BCE here on Earth our remote ancestors were solomnly considering if coming
out of the forest and leaving the safety of the trees was a good idea or not!
They were NOT constructing legends to be handed down for the next few hundred
thousand years of the goings on around them!  Yet the Vilani were, according
to Vilani & Vargr and some other tantalizing trace references in CT material.
     This means they obviously had frequent contact with the Droyne arround
them and intelligent contact at that!  Perhaps this means that Grandfather
had brought his sample Human populations across the Boca Divide of
intelligence.  If so that opens up a Real Can of Worms STS!  It's quite
possible if this is the case that those early Vilani immitated the social and
cultural norms and structures of the Droyne around them.
     Look at how soon the Vilani developed the caste system....

- -299,000 to -100,000: Encounters with Ancient War Machines.
- -99,999 to -20,000: Age of the Ancient's War Machines Empires.
- -19,000 to -11,000: Early Vilani Civilization.
     The last of the Ancient's War Machine's collapses and the Vilani no
longer have access through them to advanced technologies.  By this time
however the elements of the Early Vilani Civilization where in place as the
ballance of the Vilani had left their remote, if safe, mountain valley's.
Society both stratified and stabilized throughout this time.  Evolving first
classes and then into a caste system.

     BOOM!  As soon as the Ancient's War Machines get out of the way Vilani
culture explodes out of it's mountain retreats with this Caste system fairly
much already in place save for minor details of accomidation for local
situations.  So I'm wondering now if Vilani society and culture isn't so much
an invention of theirs as much as it may well be an ancient copying and echo
of the Droyne society and culture their ancestors observed and mimiced.

     Thoughts?  Because if this is the case it's going to have some impact on
the very roots of the Vilani language you realize. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:36:42 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

twolf@unix.tfs.net wrote:
> 
> > > Try the method I use: When you run into an odd UPP then spend 15 minutes
> > > trying to come up with an explanation for them that works and that you
> > > haven't already used too often (Like the "exotic biosphere" to explain
> > > agricultural planets outside life zones). If you can't come up with
> > > something, roll a die. On a result of 1-5 you make the smallest change
> > > necessary to make the UPP make sense. On a 6, try for another 15 minutes
> > > and also consider reusing ideas that you've already used too often; perhaps
> > > one of them can stand one more use. If you still can't come up with anything,
> > > give up and change something.
> >
> > However, some changes (to FS data) do need to be made in any case:
> > -The Canon-violating B-Pop worlds must be changed down, to A or lower
> 
> Where in canon does it say there cannot be B-Pop worlds?
Well, they cannot be created by normal World-Genm, it is stated there,
that A is max.
They skew the entire population structure of the imperium.
> 
> > -Those worlds, where canon info states facts that contradict FS-Data
> >
> Just because one source of 'canon' states one thing and another
> 'canon' source states another, doesn't mean that there is a
> contradict.  An example would be late 1700 history on earth.  The
> British Empire had one version of the American Revolution and the
> United States another.  I look at 'canon' sources with a wary eye.

I do not consider FS as Canon, where older stuff contradicts it. I
consider FS a badly researched piece of C...

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 06:40:31 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: L.A.B.R.Y.S.?

Kenji wrote:

>
>Pleeeze pleeeze pleeeze build one!  If that nasty old grouch Hengie won't
>front up for the parts and labor and insurance costs, the Sayat Bureau for
>Oversight and Operationalization of Munitions would be all too delighted to
>support this promising technology development initiative.
>
>SayBOOM is currently fooling around with the FF&S1 spreadsheets from Antti
>Lahtinen's site, trying to finalize a design for the Laser-Assisted
                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Biological Rubble Yield System (LABRYS), a standard-issue longarm.  Yes,
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ->?????
><yawn>.  Can someone gearier than me say whether FF&S2 has any significant
>improvments in this sequence?  I'm still wondering whether it's worth the
>money... despite the really horrible things I can see all too clearly being
>done with it by others on this list.


	I'm afraid.  I'm very afraid.  That acronym has just got to be
attached to something so totally warped...

	FF&S is pretty darn cool.  I dunno whether any changes have been
made in the energy weapons sequences, but the gauss and firearms sequences
are more accurate; it is no longer possible to design an M-16 that comes
out at 20lbs.  There's still a problem with high-powered rifle recievers
coming out overweight and overlong, but other than that it's close enough
to keep me happy.


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:10:10 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: re: Naval Ships and Transponders

On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Tommy Grav wrote:

> But why can't you just put an on/off switch on the cable running from the
> transponder to its antenna. Or something that will fool the transponder
> into thinking that it is sending. That would keep the athourities from
> ever knowing about why you switched it off, unless they do a fine search
> of the ship and finds the switch.
>=20
Detatching the Antenna from the transponder isn=B4t quite a good idea. If==20
you do this on a very powerful transponder, a try to send on it without=20
the antenna would end in a fried one! A friend of mine working as=20
Saveguard on a motor boat did just this to the built-in one ...
So there would be a chance to see that the transponder has been switched=20
off - even once, but that=B4s enough.

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 11:44:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: High Tech Treasures...

     I've been thinking of adventures for the Scholars of late as I start
thinking about doing a Milieu 0 campaign without a mercenary/maximum
firepower bent.  And in doing so I came up with a couple of utterly logical
ideas that definately have some humor potential when the non-Scholar type
PC's find them...

     After hacking through dense jungle, fighting off a bunch of Really Nasty
local lifeforms and finally digging through a few hundred feet of blast rated
rock at the bottom of a couple of lakes formed by the nukes dropped on the
site back durring the Interstellar Wars... no radiation of note OC. ;) The
PC's put in an airlock and gingerly follow the Scholars who hired them for
this expedition through it and down into the remains of the installation from
the Ziru Sirka, visions of treasures dancing in their heads STS...
     To find the Scholars shouting they're FOUND IT!!!  In the middle of a
vault of data storage crystals???  Turns out the "treasure" the Scholars were
after were the Back up files for that Sector of the Ziru Sirka.  Yup, three
thousand years of bureaucratic memos, reports and other files.  To scholars
it's PRICELESS!!!  It's value on the open market?  For thousand year old data
crystals with thousand year old bureaucratic memos for a government long dead
and gone? ROTFLMOL!!!!! <GRIN>

     The PC's and the Scholars have been jumping across half the subsector,
surveying one system after another until suddenly the sensors light up like a
bonfire!  With due precautions the PCs close on the object in orbit around
the world and discover... An abandoned shipyard!  And wonders of wonders
there are a couple of Warships in the docking slips!!!
     Then the PC's board them and find out the ships have been sitting their
for the past thousand or so years, open to space, the perfect examples of the
height of TL11 Vilani technology!  And just as the PCs are starting to get
ideas...  The Imperial Navy shows up!  The Naval Officer is very polite to
the Scholars, after all they've got plans to conduct an archeological
inspection of the site.  For the unacredited PCs however... <GRIN>

     The PC's get a call from a Scholar, he needs them to take him to a world
easily a dozen parsecs away out past the fringe to Sieze the Prize he says!
After many travails and troubles the PCs and the Scholar jump into the system
and land on the Primary.  The Scholar practically wets himself trying to get
outside, rushes up to the first few natives and records everything they say
for about an hour, then makes image copies of a couple of the TL3 inhabitants
documents and tells you he's got it!
     When questioned a bit more closely... it turns out "The Prize" is
evidence to prove an obscure bit of linguistic drift theory.  For the Scholar
his vocal recording and image copies of written materials is all he needs to
publish and secure tenure.  For the PCs... well they did help to advance the
cause of science and knowledge.  Perhaps a mention in footnotes of his
paper???

     <GRIN> Scholars and their adventures could make things really
interesting... if you do them just right! ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:33:58 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Dulinor and Strephon

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:

>=20
> On Tue, 18 Nov 1997, Lars Adler wrote:
>=20
> > On Mon, 10 Nov 1997, Erwin Fritz wrote:
> > > Alan Rickman is, arguably, the greatest villain since Vader.
> >=20
> > I agree with that if you mean Gruber in "Die Hard".
> > His Sheriff of Nottingham performance was a little poor, IMHO.
>=20
> Come now..."Cancel Christmas!" has _got_ to be one of the greatest cheesy
> villain lines in the history of film!
>=20
That=B4s why I see him as a Joker figure in that film. That made him less==20
vicious. As Gruber he was a really evil, fearsome person.
Do you know =B4Januaray Man=B4 (w. Kevin Kline, Mary E. Mastrantonio)?=20
Although he played one of the goodies in this movie, he had a scene that=20
reminded me again of Gruber, when he and his friend saved the new victim=20
of a serial killer - I think the poor woman did not know whom to trust ...

But we=B4re getting away from this list, now let=B4s stop it!

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:51:49 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Low-Frequency weapons

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> I remember reading a while ago about the ultra-low freqency weapons various
> folks were trying out. One was a riot-control 'sonic cannon', but the other
> was much more fun.
> 
> The idea was that a powerful low-frequency wave passed throught the Mantle
> could cause tectonic activity due to resonance along fault lines. The fear
> amongst the few who knew about this was that the Chinese had one, poised to
> shake the San Andreas Fault to bits.
> 
> This one ranks (to me) alongside the Alternative Roswell Theory. Daft, but
> interesting.
> 
Now as we are at The Conspiracy Theory, do you remember the earthquake 
weapon tested by the NASA with the Space Shuttle, and Whisper-Mode 
Helicopters?

Now see, what sonic weapons can do (uh, no, they have found mee ...)

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:54:43 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Copyright messages

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 CardSharks@aol.com wrote:

> In a message dated 97-11-23 19:30:59 EST, you write:
> 
> << 
>  	The one Marc Miller gave me way back when was "Traveller is a
>  registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises. Portions of this
>  material may be (c)
>  1977-1996 Far Future Enterprises." That's what I've been using
>  ever since, although now there should probably be something in
>  there about IG as well ...
>   >>
> 
> And that should be revised to say:
> 
> "Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises. Portions of
> this
>  material are (c) 1977-1997 Far Future Enterprises."
> 

Would it be better to say (c) Far Future Enterprises since 1977 ?
Then it had to be changed only when it was _really_ expired.

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:51:49 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Low-Frequency weapons

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, MJ Dougherty wrote:

> I remember reading a while ago about the ultra-low freqency weapons various
> folks were trying out. One was a riot-control 'sonic cannon', but the other
> was much more fun.
> 
> The idea was that a powerful low-frequency wave passed throught the Mantle
> could cause tectonic activity due to resonance along fault lines. The fear
> amongst the few who knew about this was that the Chinese had one, poised to
> shake the San Andreas Fault to bits.
> 
> This one ranks (to me) alongside the Alternative Roswell Theory. Daft, but
> interesting.
> 
Now as we are at The Conspiracy Theory, do you remember the earthquake 
weapon tested by the NASA with the Space Shuttle, and Whisper-Mode 
Helicopters?

Now see, what sonic weapons can do (uh, no, they have found mee ...)

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:21:44 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

On Fri, 21 Nov 1997, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> (Actually, that's an interesting question - how do you measure distance
> to a nearby star well enough to astrogate to it? It's probably a 
> surprisingly time-consuming process - involving moving all over a nearby
> solar system to get good parallax baselines, using a ship with survey sensors - 
> and even then you probably get errors at the 20 AU level - first-time
> jumps can leave you nearly anywhere.)
> 
I think that also can give an explanation why jumps further than 6 parsek 
cannot be safe ... sorry for the turn in the parsek-lightyear definition, 
I meant it the other way!

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:27:48 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Alternate star mapping

On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:

> I have always had the opinion that a jumping ship emerges pretty close to
> anywhere in the target system, to reflect this uncertanity. In effect, the
> exit point is random, although safety functions prevents the shipfrom
> emerging in a gravity well (i.e. inside or very near a planet).
> 
The fact that a ship does not exit in a gravity well was explained as 
being part of the jumpspace physics, so it is not possible to jump into a 
planet or asteroid. That would also mean that you can set the course 
directly to the sun of your target system and get out somewhere at the 
100 radius sphere.

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:08:22 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Vilani Society, a commentary

>     BOOM!  As soon as the Ancient's War Machines get out of the way Vilani
>culture explodes out of it's mountain retreats with this Caste system fairly
>much already in place save for minor details of accomidation for local
>situations.  So I'm wondering now if Vilani society and culture isn't so much
>an invention of theirs as much as it may well be an ancient copying and echo
>of the Droyne society and culture their ancestors observed and mimiced.
>
>     Thoughts?  Because if this is the case it's going to have some impact on
>the very roots of the Vilani language you realize. ;)
>
>Stephen

A very interesting deduction (Vilani tracing its cultural roots to Droyne
and Ancients customs). As for disliking them I'd say that I prefer Vilani
to Solomani any day in light of what they have done during the Stellar wars
and later.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:11:20 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Sector Data Question

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Clark, William wrote:

> Does anyone know what the following codes in the remarks section of=20
> the data listings mean?  Any help is greatly appreciated.
>=20
> An=09Ancient Site
> Bl
> C0=09Chirpers: 100%
> C1=09Chripers:  10%
> C2
> C3
> C4
> C5
> C6
> C7
> C8
> C:0=09see above
> C:1
> C:2
> C:3
> C:5
> Cs=09Client State
> Cw=09Chirper World
  Cp    Subsector Capital
> Cx=09Sector Capital
> D0=09Droyne: 100%
> D1
> D2
> D3
> D4
> D5
> D6
> D7
> D8
> D9
> D:2=09see above
> D:3
> D:4
> D:5
> Dw=09Droyne World
> Ex=09Exile World
> FA=09Federation of Arden
> Li=09Lucan=B4s Imperium
> Mr=09Military Ruled
> NH
> Pr=09Prison World
> Re=09Regency
> Rn
> Rs=09Research Station
> RsA=09Rs Alpha
> RsB=09Rs Beta
> RsD=09Rs Delta
> RsE=09Rs Epsilon
> RsG=09Rs Gamma
  Rs H=09Rs Eta
> RsZ=09Rs Zeta
> Rv=09Restored Ziru Sirka
> Si
> Sv
> Sw=09Sword Worlds=09
> Wi=09Wilds
> Xb=09Xboat Station
>=20
>=20
That=B4s what I could find in my memory.=20

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:05:49 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Looking For

On Mon, 24 Nov 1997, Clark, William wrote:

> Does anyone have, in electronic form, Xboat Routes?  I am looking for=20
> the information so that it ideally contains from Sector and Hex Number=20
> to Sector and Hex Number.  Any help is greatly appreciated.
>=20
I made such data for my little Astrogator=B4s program. I put the xboat data==20
in a single file, so it can be edited from outside. The xboat routes of=20
each sector I could find in my DGP material are given in the form

Sector Name
0001-0302-0506-0410 0509-0506-0711-....

for example.
I included by now the sectors Spinward Marches, Deneb, Reft, Riftspan=20
Reaches, Trojan Reach, Corridor, Vland, Ealiasiyw, Dark Nebula, Solomani=20
Rim, Magyar. I=B4m still searching for more.

The Borders shown on these maps I have included in a similar way, giving=20
the hex of the border with some data about the frame of the hex belonging=
=20
to the border. With a special editing program it should be no problem to=20
get all the data into the files.

This Astrogator=B4s Guide was not intended to be used outside of my=20
campaign, but if someone is interested, he may get a copy to see how I=20
solved some problems. It runs under QBasic/DOS and is not yet complete.

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1997 09:04 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Linking up the Virtual Archive

Gentle Travellers,

The responses I've gotten are sound.  For us who have
tried to compile listings, to the rest of the group:
there is a lot of data, and it shifts around periodically.
Wow, big surprise, eh?

Okay, then I'll try another experiment.  Before now,
I've aksed for existing campaigns from which to form a
document.  Also, I asked for home-grown Imperial
corporations (less of a turnout there).  Now I'll go
out on a limb and ask you webpage owners to itemize
your webpage.

Post this information about your webpage for others'
reference, sticking as closely as possible to this sample 
format: (here goes!)



Your_e-mail_address_(optional)		Your Name
Your_Traveller_Top_Page_URL		Your Trav Webpage's Name
Subject_Link				Subject Name
Subject_Link				Subject Name
....


For "Subject Name", try to use key words that might be turned
up with a search engine: deckplans, character, starport, etc.
Is it clear?  Here's an example:

eaglesto@nortel.ca			Robert Eaglestone
users.why.net/rje/trav/index.htm	Rob's Dead Traveller Webpage
users.why.net/rje/trav/foo.htm		Deckplans
users.why.net/rje/trav/bar.htm		Character Sheets
users.why.net/rje/trav/baz.htm		Orbital starport monitor
users.why.net/rje/trav/baq.htm		Article about starports
users.why.net/rje/trav/qux.htm		Article about Bilandian


This is reasonably parsable by text formatting programs.

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 07:05:27 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: [T97#2117] Sector Names

>Subject: [T97#2117] Sector Names
>Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 23:10:04 GMT

>
>Marc, I don't know if you're aware of it, or if perhaps you've
>rejected it for some reason, but Jim Vassilakos's GALACTIC
>program has a fairly complete list of sector names and locations,
>including multiple languages for sectors that were named by
>multiple stellar powers.  I don't remember Jim's URL for it, but
>I do know that you can get it by visiting Freelance Traveller and
>following the links to INFORMATION and then Traveller Support
>Software for Your Computer.  It doesn't quite use the same
>coordinate system that you did in your post, although the "sign"
>of the coordinates follow the same pattern (i.e., "increasing"
>toward Hiver space).

I was browsing the web, and found a "very large" spreadsheet of sector 
names on the website listed below.  I don't know if they have been 
looked at as far as acuracy goes, but thought I'd throw it out there for 
what its worth......    
http://members.aol.com/kagekiha/traveller/subsec.htm

Any comments?

Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:01:55 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Free traders & econ 101

William Barnett-Lewis <wlewis@mailbag.com> wrote:

> I've fought with the various (excellent) spreadsheets long enough. Is
>there any way to put a ******* free/far trader in the black using SSDS
>_or_ FFS2 rules???? Catch- NO effing subsidy... The classic canonical A2
>would not be built in the universe of T4. Period.
>
><snip>
>
>Seriously, can it be done in the current rules or does this (too)
>require a hand wave?

IIRC you need to speculate to make a profit on a far trader (A2), even in
CT and MT. That is if it isn't paid off.. it's reasonably easy then. T4 is
just following precedent.


Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:56:29 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Traveller-digest V1997 #2123

>I have some problems with some of the figures for nuclear rockets.

>However, I'm assuming that the TL 8 advanced NTR is a liquid core nuclear
>rocket.  The Isp of such a rocket is around 1500 seconds. The fuel
>consumption should be more like 3.1 m3/hr/kN not the 4.17 listed. 

>Also, the gas core nuclear rocket is rather under-powered.  All the
>figures I've seen have rated it as having an Isp of between 2500 & 10,000
>seconds.

I used George Herbert's numbers (which were what were supposed to go in
FFS2 in the first place). He has ISP=850 for a low-tech NTR (basically
NERVA.) The TL-8 advanced NTR is actually Timberwind (ISP 1200); there 
isn't a liquid NTR present. He quotes ISP 2000 for the gas core NTR,
which is conservative, but not overly so for a rocket type never yet 
constructed...In a variant campaign without contra-grav you might consider
cranking it up for the late TL-9/early TL-10 versions, I suppose. 
George does rocket science for a living - further criticism should be taken 
to him on Trav Tech, I think.

(My personal beef with the table - which I didn't change - is that the
TL-8 rockets are actually allmost all 1970s things like SSME and RD-180,
which gets into the whole definition of tech level question...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:06:47 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Detection tasks

>>The problem is probabilities; if you allow multiple attempts to accomplish
>>any task, you can pretty much guarantee that players will always succeed
>>in moderate amounts of time - only 3-4 attempts, given how painfully easy
>>even "Staggering" tasks are in the T4 system, even if the operator isn't
>>very skilled. 

>Now, doesn't that indicate to you that "Staggering" tasks are too easy (no
>I won't start that debate again ;-)

Yes, it does - but I got tired of making everything "Impossible" and
I could never remember "Hopeless". The task system does need some tweaking...
too many names for marginally-different tasks at the medium range, not enough
at the hard end.

>detection is too easy at
>too long a range?
To be honest, detection should really be a pretty deterministic process; 
it either works or it doesn't, with a given total time translating into a 
given sensitivity. There's image processing and setting-up-the-sensor 
involved, but that would all be automated. I decided to go with skill rolls
instead to make PC's matter more - which isn't an unreasonable thing.
(And, also, truth be told, so that I only had to run one simulation (which
became the unmodified task) and could put in rather arbitrary modifiers for
different situations.)

>Heck, you might be scanning only parts
>of the sky on each attempt and it takes X scans to cover the entire
>elliptic.

That's possible; you certainly have to roll the spacecraft repeatedly to
scan properly and to scan the whole target system (though I sort-of averaged
this into the integration times.)

Hmm - informally, how many people would prefer a table that tells you
how long you have to look in a given situation, with no real task rolls
involved, to the approach I previously posted.

Bruce

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2125
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Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2126



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

detection tasks
Re: Free traders & econ 101      
Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive
Virtual Archive
Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive
Re: Copyright messages
Star Diameters
Re: Free traders & econ 101
Re: Sector data revisions
Re: L.A.B.R.Y.S.?
detection tasks
Unix Traveller Programs
Vilani Society, a commentary
THUDDD 7 Results!
re: Detection tasks
Re: Sector data revisions

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:24:12 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: detection tasks

How about"

The task may be attempted multiple times. Each additional attempt requires
four times longer than the previous attempt; however, it is rolled at 1 DM
easier.

For example, a PEMS-13 is trying to detect a gas giant 1 parsec away
in the inner zone of a target system, a (Difficult+3=Impossible) task. 
The initial attempt requires one day. If this fails, a second attempt
may be made after four days of integration; this second attempt will be
Impossible-1=Staggering. A third attempt could be made after sixteen
days; this attempt would be Impossible-2 = Formidable.

(Someone should check my task names - I can't remember all the interminable,
interchangeable T4 task names.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 09:51:46 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Free traders & econ 101      

>Seriously, can it be done in the current rules or does this (too)
>require a hand wave?

Including the mass-production discount, using automation to keep the 
crew down, using cheap low-performance technologies like HEPlaR, buying
and refining unrefined fuel are the classic things to help...but even those
may not help enough; this mostly underscores that the cargo prices are too
low.

(This was somewhat true in the Old Days too - a Far Trader couldn't support
itself with cargo and passengers, but only with successful speculative
trading.)

bruce

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:13:13 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive

here's mine:

johnson@pharmacy.arizona.edu	Bruce Johnson
www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/traveller.html	Main Trav Page
www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/tprogs.html		Computer programs DOS Mac
www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/csc_page.html	vehicle designs
www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/deckplans.html	Starship deckplans
www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/tadven.html		adventures

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On 25 Nov 1997, Robert Eaglestone wrote:

> Gentle Travellers,
> 
> The responses I've gotten are sound.  For us who have
> tried to compile listings, to the rest of the group:
> there is a lot of data, and it shifts around periodically.
> Wow, big surprise, eh?
> 
> Okay, then I'll try another experiment.  Before now,
> I've aksed for existing campaigns from which to form a
> document.  Also, I asked for home-grown Imperial
> corporations (less of a turnout there).  Now I'll go
> out on a limb and ask you webpage owners to itemize
> your webpage.
> 
> Post this information about your webpage for others'
> reference, sticking as closely as possible to this sample 
> format: (here goes!)
> 
> 
> 
> Your_e-mail_address_(optional)		Your Name
> Your_Traveller_Top_Page_URL		Your Trav Webpage's Name
> Subject_Link				Subject Name
> Subject_Link				Subject Name
> ...
> 
> 
> For "Subject Name", try to use key words that might be turned
> up with a search engine: deckplans, character, starport, etc.
> Is it clear?  Here's an example:
> 
> eaglesto@nortel.ca			Robert Eaglestone
> users.why.net/rje/trav/index.htm	Rob's Dead Traveller Webpage
> users.why.net/rje/trav/foo.htm		Deckplans
> users.why.net/rje/trav/bar.htm		Character Sheets
> users.why.net/rje/trav/baz.htm		Orbital starport monitor
> users.why.net/rje/trav/baq.htm		Article about starports
> users.why.net/rje/trav/qux.htm		Article about Bilandian
> 
> 
> This is reasonably parsable by text formatting programs.
> 
> -Rob
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:30:21 -0600
From: Chris Olson <Chris_Olson@itd.sterling.com>
Subject: Virtual Archive

Chris_Olson@Sterling.COM                Chris Olson
www.novia.net/~pern/chris/index.html    Chris Olson's Traveller Page
www.novia.net/~pern/chris/fury.html     Epoch Class Medium Range Trader
Starship Design
www.novia.net/~pern/chris/Language.zip  Windows 95 Traveller Word Generation
Software

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:12:48 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive

Robert Eaglestone wrote:
> 
> Okay, then I'll try another experiment.  Before now,
> I've aksed for existing campaigns from which to form a
> document.  Also, I asked for home-grown Imperial
> corporations (less of a turnout there).  Now I'll go
> out on a limb and ask you webpage owners to itemize
> your webpage.
> 
> Post this information about your webpage for others'
> reference, sticking as closely as possible to this sample
> format: (here goes!)
> 
> Your_e-mail_address_(optional)          Your Name
> Your_Traveller_Top_Page_URL             Your Trav Webpage's Name
> Subject_Link                            Subject Name
> Subject_Link                            Subject Name
> ...
> 
> For "Subject Name", try to use key words that might be turned
> up with a search engine: deckplans, character, starport, etc.
> Is it clear?  Here's an example:
> 
> eaglesto@nortel.ca                      Robert Eaglestone
> users.why.net/rje/trav/index.htm        Rob's Dead Traveller Webpage
> users.why.net/rje/trav/foo.htm          Deckplans
> users.why.net/rje/trav/bar.htm          Character Sheets
> users.why.net/rje/trav/baz.htm          Orbital starport monitor
> users.why.net/rje/trav/baq.htm          Article about starports
> users.why.net/rje/trav/qux.htm          Article about Bilandian
> 
> This is reasonably parsable by text formatting programs.

Two recommendations:

(1) Add the link type (mailto, http, ftp, etc.)

(2) Enclose links in angle brackets <foo> 
    This is a common convention, and some software makes links enclosed
in these brackets "hot". Also, it aids in parsing and extracting links
from the text automatically.

New Examples:
<mailto:eaglesto@nortel.ca>                  Robert Eaglestone
<http://users.why.net/rje/trav/index.htm>    Rob's Dead Traveller
Webpage
<http://users.why.net/rje/trav/foo.htm>      Deckplans
<http://users.why.net/rje/trav/bar.htm>      Character Sheets
<http://users.why.net/rje/trav/baz.htm>      Orbital starport monitor
<http://users.why.net/rje/trav/baq.htm>      Article about starports
<http://users.why.net/rje/trav/qux.htm>      Article about Bilandian
<ftp://users.why.net/rje/trav/foo2.zip>      PC Character Generation
<ftp://users.why.net/rje/trav/atlas.hqx>     Mac Stellar Atlas Software


A third comment, about Metacontent and webpages:

We might want to consider compiling a list of common keywords, plus one
master keyword that could be "unique". There's lots of Traveller sites
out there that have nothing to do with the game. Y'know, "World
Travellers! Free Air Miles! Order Now!" Let's cut some deadwood from our
web searches.

These "Traveller standard" keywords can be kept in a central repository,
ideally a Traveller FAQ (aside: where's the TML FAQ again? I remember
seeing one...) Those who want to search the web for Traveller stuff
could use it as a starting point.

Designers of webpages are encouraged to use the META tag so their pages
can be searched and indexed by all those marvellous web search engines.
(aside#2: do all search engines search META info, and give it extra
search "weight"? I understand that Altavista and Infoseek do for
sure...)

For the Master Keyword, I suggest: TravellerRPG
(one word, for uniqueness)

To start the ball rolling, other keywords could be: Character, Design,
Deckplans, Technical, Timeline, Filk, Contact, Amber Zone, Casual
Encounter, Sector, Starship, Vehicle, Spreadsheet, Mac Software, PC
Software, Worlds, Adventure, Errata, Aliens, plus all those other
acronyms we toss around here FFS, MMT, T4, CT, MT, TNE, RCES . . .


ADDENDA:

Here's info on META tags I gleaned from <http://www.htmlhelp.com/>


Appearance:     <META NAME=string CONTENT=string>
Attributes:     HTTP-EQUIV=string|NAME=string, CONTENT=string
Contents:       None (Empty).
May occur in:   HEAD.


The META tag is used to convey meta-information about the document, but
can also be used to specify headers for the document. You can use either
HTTP-EQUIV or NAME to name the meta-information, but CONTENT must be
used in both cases. By using HTTP-EQUIV, a server should use the name
indicated as a header, with the specified CONTENT as its value. For
example, 

<META HTTP-EQUIV="Expires" CONTENT="Tue, 04 Dec 1993 21:29:02 GMT">
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Keywords" CONTENT="Nanotechnology, Biochemistry">
<META HTTP-EQUIV="Reply-to" CONTENT="dsr@w3.org (Dave Raggett)">

The server should include the following response headers when the
document is requested: 

Expires: Tue, 04 Dec 1993 21:29:02 GMT
Keywords: Nanotechnology, Biochemistry
Reply-to: dsr@w3.org (Dave Raggett)

Popular uses for META include: 

<META NAME="generator" CONTENT="Some program"> 
     This indicates the program used to generate this document. It is
often the name of the HTML editor used.
 
<META NAME="author" CONTENT="Name"> 
     This indicates the name of the author. 

<META NAME="keywords" CONTENT="keyword keyword keyword"> 
     Provides keywords for search engines such as Infoseek or Alta
Vista.
 These are added to the keywords found in the document itself. If you
insert a keyword more than seven times here, the whole tag will be
ignored! 

<META NAME="description" CONTENT="This is a site"> 
     Search engines which support the above tag will now display the
text you specify here, rather than the first few lines of text from the
actual document when the document shows up in a search result. You have
about 1,000 characters for your description, but not all these will be
used. 

<META HTTP-EQUIV="refresh" CONTENT="n; URL=http://foo.bar/"> 
     This is a so-called "meta refresh", which on certain browsers
causes the document mentioned in the URL to be loaded after n seconds.
This can be used for slide shows or for often-changing information, but
has some drawbacks. In particular, if you use a value of zero seconds,
the user can no longer go "Back" with his back button. He will be
transferred to the specified URL, and when he presses "back" there, he
will go back to the document with the refresh, which immediately
redirects him to the document he tried to get away from.

<META HTTP-EQUIV="expires" CONTENT="Tue, 20 Aug 1996 14:25:27 GMT"> 
     This indicates that the document containing this META tag will
expire at this date. If the document is requested after this date, the
browser should load a new copy from the server, instead of using the
copy in its cache. 

Notes:

     Not all servers use the information from META tags to generate
headers, although some browsers will treat what they find in here like
it was a header. 
     The "keywords" and "description" values are currently only used by
Alta Vista and Infoseek.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:11:58 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Copyright messages

On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Lars Adler wrote:

> On Mon, 24 Nov 1997 CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> > In a message dated 97-11-23 19:30:59 EST, you write:
> > 
> > << 
> >  	The one Marc Miller gave me way back when was "Traveller is a
> >  registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises. Portions of this
> >  material may be (c)
> >  1977-1996 Far Future Enterprises." That's what I've been using
> >  ever since, although now there should probably be something in
> >  there about IG as well ...
> >   >>
> > 
> > And that should be revised to say:
> > 
> > "Traveller is a registered trademark of Far Future Enterprises. Portions of
> > this
> >  material are (c) 1977-1997 Far Future Enterprises."
> > 
> Would it be better to say (c) Far Future Enterprises since 1977 ?
> Then it had to be changed only when it was _really_ expired.
> 
> Greetings from L.A.
> 

Unfortunately, common sense no longer seems to have anything remotely to
do with legal-eze.

douglas

- --------------------------------------------
Any sufficiently reliable magic is indistinguishable from technology
                                              -Merlin
e-mail: douglas@teleport.com
http:\\www.teleport.com\~douglas\
MCSE: Windows95, Windows NT 3.51 Server, Windows NT 3.51 Workstation, 
      Exchange Server, Basic Networking, TCP/IP
*Unsolicited advertisements will be reported to the originating ISP*
- --------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: 25 Nov 1997 09:54 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Star Diameters

Gentle Travellers,

Is there a formula we use to find the 100-diameter limit of a star?
For instance,

	d(G2V) = ?
	d(F7V) = ?
	d(M8D) = ?
	d(M6V) = ?


1. What is the simple formula?
2. What is the complex formula?

If I expect d(G2V) to yield just under 1 AU, then I suppose the
formula would be something like

	[ f(G) * 2 * g(V) / 500 ] AU
	
x	f(x)		y	g(y)
- ------------		------------
O	16		I	70
B	14		II	60
A	12		III	50
F	10		IV	40
G	8		V	30
K	6		VI	20
M	4		VII	10
			D	5
	
	d(G2V) = 0.9 AU
	d(F7V) = 4.2 AU
	d(M8D) = 0.3 AU
	d(M6V) = 1.4 AU

?

- -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:16:18 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Free traders & econ 101

At 12:38 AM 11/25/97 -0500, Mike Peter wrote:
>Mayby the pricing is a little skewed ? Anyone working on this? I'm very
>interested as well.

I finally decided the following for my game:

Military ships run approximately 1MCr/ton.

Civilian ships run roughly 20-40KCr/ton.

They can use roughly 80% of their space for mission payload for a J1 ship,
and about 60% for a J3, so a J1 civilian ship costs about 25KCr/ton of
cargo or passengers.  Since I assume 50% capacity, and 25 jumps a year, and
a minimal revenue of 10% of cost per year, one only need get a return of
200CR/jump/ton of cargo for break even.

This also makes star travel far cheaper, which was part of why I did this.

(To implement this, you need to decide what gets cheaper.  Since the
current system involves about a third of the cost of a ship being jump
drive, and another third being power plant and maneuver drives, all of
these need to drop in price substantially.)

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:25:12 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

At 01:11 PM 11/24/97 +1100, Barry / Michael James wrote:
>I like the suggestions people are making about 'logical' revisions to the
>sector data. I'd just like to say one thing: it's a big galaxy. 
>In other words, there should be *illogical* (or marginally logical) worlds
>out there too. Although there won't be very many size 1 vacuum worlds with
>tens of billions of inhabitants, it will make a hell of a game when the
>players *do* make planetfall on one of them! 

I fully agree.

My view, and why I am trying to clean up most of those, is that it should
be unusual to land on a world that exports food, but that also has a
tainted atmosphere, or where a billion people live on a size one world, or
a system with a size zero mainworld, when there is a habitable planet nearby.

All of these are great adventure fodder, and you will see them in 11,000
systems, but you should not see them in one system in three or four.  The
current sysgen rules produce some know interesting bits, but the first
survey reduction made a few areas a lot worse, such that I end up spending
more time explaining away data flaws than coming up with goodies.
Fortunately, this can and will be fixed.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:50:40 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: L.A.B.R.Y.S.?

Roderick wrote:

>Kenji wrote:
[snip]
>>
>>SayBOOM is currently fooling around with the FF&S1 spreadsheets from Antti
>>Lahtinen's site, trying to finalize a design for the Laser-Assisted
>                                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>Biological Rubble Yield System (LABRYS), a standard-issue longarm.  Yes,
>^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ->?????
>><yawn>.  Can someone gearier than me say whether FF&S2 has any significant
>>improvments in this sequence?  I'm still wondering whether it's worth the
>>money... despite the really horrible things I can see all too clearly being
>>done with it by others on this list.
>
>
>        I'm afraid.  I'm very afraid.  That acronym has just got to be
>attached to something so totally warped...

Actually... not really.  A "labrys" is a double-bladed axehead; it was
particualrly common as a design motif (in masonry) in the Minoan
civilization (and is the source of the term "labyrinth", I'm told.)
Somehow or another it was also associated with the Amazons in later Greek
literature.  Nowadays it's been "reclaimed" and is a pretty popular
jewelry/T-shirt/tattoo/whatever design among womon-identified womyn.  And
anyone else trying to score some of that chic/make a buck of that market.

The Sayat LABRYS is just a TL-12 laser rifle.  Tries to be Sayatish in
style (long range, low ROF, lightweight, great batteries).  But, like I
said, yawn.

>        FF&S is pretty darn cool.  I dunno whether any changes have been
>made in the energy weapons sequences, but the gauss and firearms sequences
>are more accurate; it is no longer possible to design an M-16 that comes
>out at 20lbs.  There's still a problem with high-powered rifle recievers
>coming out overweight and overlong, but other than that it's close enough
>to keep me happy.

Close enough to WHAT?  That doesn't sound... public safety-conscious.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang Web Page: http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:34:36 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: detection tasks

>
   Hi.
   
> From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
> How about"
> The task may be attempted multiple times. Each additional attempt requires
> four times longer than the previous attempt; however, it is rolled at 1 DM
> easier.
   
> For example, a PEMS-13 is trying to detect a gas giant 1 parsec away
> in the inner zone of a target system, a (Difficult+3=Impossible) task. 
> The initial attempt requires one day. If this fails, a second attempt
> may be made after four days of integration; this second attempt will be
> Impossible-1=Staggering. A third attempt could be made after sixteen
> days; this attempt would be Impossible-2 = Formidable.
   
   Making the task duration for N tries equal to 4^(N-1) days is a pretty
   hefty increase.  The `N^2 days' duration I mentioned earlier is more
   realistic.  Keep in mind that the `N^2 days' convention is not some
   game rule that I made up; it is a real-life law of nature used by us
   physicists when we schedule time on atom smashers and telescopes.
   
   -Rob
   

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:49:49 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Unix Traveller Programs

I just recently made the switch to Linux, and I was wondering if there
were any unix programs out there that people have written or are using
for Traveller and RPGs in general.

Thanks.

- -- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:56:49 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Vilani Society, a commentary

>
   Hi.
   
> From: s.johnson107@genie.com
   
>> -300,000 or thereabouts: Final War was waged.
>> The Vilani were intelligent enough to notice this BTW.  They have legends
>> of wars amongst the Gods, terrible destruction and the god's occassional
>> intervention in Human affairs.  From other sources we know that the Final
>> War last about 1,000 years using TL21+ weapons and ranged across all of
>> Known Space and perhaps beyond.
>      Now think about the implications of this for a moment.  Around 300,000
> BCE here on Earth our remote ancestors were solomnly considering if coming
> out of the forest and leaving the safety of the trees was a good idea or not!
> They were NOT constructing legends to be handed down for the next few hundred
> thousand years of the goings on around them!  Yet the Vilani were, according
> to Vilani & Vargr and some other tantalizing trace references in CT material.
   [snip]
   
   This is an interesting thesis, but I have a few problems with what you
   said.  300k years ago we had already come out of the forests.  Homo
   erectus shows all the adaptations of savanna-dwelling runners from
   1.5M years or so, IIRC.  Early Homo sapiens had evolved by 700k years
   ago.  Human brains 300k years ago were not so much smaller than ours;
   it is quite conceivable that they were constructing legends by that
   time.  (Of course, it's also conceivable that they were not.)
   
   It does seem rather implausible, though, that an oral tradition could
   survive for that long in any definitive form.  You have a point there.
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:05:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 7 Results!

On behalf of the Imperial Shipbuilders Association, the THUDDD Board of
Directors, the Imperial Navy, and most especially our gracious sovereign,
Cleon I, I am very please to announce the winner of the IN-50 Heavy
Fighter prototype development contract...

The MF357 Drachen Jaeger Class Heavy Fighter, submitted by Zusa and
Associates!

[Fanfare, round of applause, much eye-rolling among representatives of
other firms]

We are fortunate enough to have the lead designer on this project, Brian
Songy, with us this evening.  Mr. Songy, please come on up here to accept
the THUDDD trophy.  My congratulations to you, your firm, and to all
entrants in this seventh THUDDD competition.  By fostering friendly
competition among Imperial shipbuilding firms, we are ensuring that our
young Imperium will enjoy continued peace and prosperity for millenia --
peace and prosperity built on the foundation of capable spacecraft, both
military and civilian.  Ladies and gentleman, another warm round of
applause for Mr Songy and his firm! 

====

Here are the results for THUDDD 7.  As you can see, the Drachen Jaeger
swept every category but 'Unusualness', which was won by new THUDDD
entrant Rob Day's intriguing meson fighter, the Tsiko.  By the way, in
addition to placing second in 'Unusualness', Andy Akins deserves special
recognition for having provided the FFS2 spreadsheet used to generate all
but one of the THUDDD 7 entries.  Thanks, Andy!

Overall Design:
  2.50 - MF357 Drachen Jaeger Class Heavy Fighter (Brian Songy)
  3.20 - XTF-4 Delta Fighter (Bill Prankard)
  3.36 - X-1108 FireFly class Prototype Fighter (Danny Moody)

Usability in a Game:
  2.60 - MF357 Drachen Jaeger Class Heavy Fighter (Brian Songy)
  2.91 - X-1108 FireFly class Prototype Fighter (Danny Moody)
  3.00 - Gentle Breeze class Heavy Fighter (Martin F. C. Pickett)

Closeness to Spec:
  2.20 - MF357 Drachen Jaeger Class Heavy Fighter (Brian Songy)
  3.36 - X-1108 FireFly class Prototype Fighter (Danny Moody)
  3.40 - XTF-4 Delta Fighter (Bill Prankard)

Efficiency:
  2.80 - MF357 Drachen Jaeger Class Heavy Fighter (Brian Songy)
  3.18 - X-1108 FireFly class Prototype Fighter (Danny Moody)
  3.50 - XTF-4 Delta Fighter (Bill Prankard)

Unusualness:
  1.91 - Tsiko class Heavy Fighter (Rob Day)
  3.10 - Gede class Strike Fighter (Andy Akins)
  3.90 - MF357 Drachen Jaeger Class Heavy Fighter (Brian Songy)

All of this data will appear at the THUDDD website within a few days.
Thanks once again to everyone who designed, voted, or otherwise got
involved in making THUDDD work.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:23:40 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: re: Detection tasks

At 09:06 AM 11/25/97 -0800, bmac wrote:
>Hmm - informally, how many people would prefer a table that tells you
>how long you have to look in a given situation, with no real task rolls
>involved, to the approach I previously posted.

Meeeee.  Me Me Me.  Meeeee.

Sufficient enthusiasm?

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 18:14:48 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

I appologize for beating this subject up some more, I realize that I haven't
made my thoughts very clear and feel the need to try one more time. Sorry.

I think that it all comes down to the point of view of exactly when the game
is set. My comments come from the point of view of the first few decades of
the Third Imperrium when contact between worlds out side of Core sector is
VERY rare ( again clouded by my own perception of the Long Night ). From
this point of view the number of High Level starports (most capable of
construction), not Contacted, low tech ports as you descrbe, is the problem.
I agree that once a world has even occational contact with freetraders and
such, that facilities like you describe will be available, but what about
world that haven't seen a ship in hundreds of years?

Granted a modern airport can easily handle a Trav starship, but there will
be no maintanence facilities IN PLACE, nor beacons etc. until AFTER Contact
is made. Lower tech worlds are even less likely to have facilities standing
around until AFTER contact (unless they are preserved RELICS from the Firts
or Second Imperiums).

The Data, as presented in M0 (or First Survey) is more like data from a TNE
point of view, Not 2000 years of lost contact, but a couple of hundred.
Glancing through Illelish Sector shows that most world Starports and Tech
Levels rate very close to those found in the Core subsector, yet Illelish
was still 22% unContacted in year 200. That, to me, makes the data a bit
skewwed to the high side for an early M0 setting. Why didn't all those
planets with A starports come and meet the Imperium? And why did
interstellar trade stop, or nearly so, if so high a percentage could still
produce, repair, and support star ship?

I thisnk how the data needs to be changed, (and how I am attemting to do it
for my universe) is that the further from the seats of resurging
civilization (Viland, Sylea, Old Earth Union, Aslan, Sowrd Worlds, etc.) the
lower the number of medium to high tech worlds, and the (greatly) lessened
chance that starport facilities exist. Naturally as these worlds are
re-Contacted, more and more 'ports and higher tech levels will develope.

I think a sliding scale based somewhat on the Imperal Expansion charts from
M0 are what I'm really driving at. With the occational Pocket Empire and
Barbarian Kingdom thrown in for fun.

Of course this is all in my own, very humble opinion and can readily be
disregarded as foolish babble ;> ( my wife says I tend to do that far too
much since getting re-involved with Traveller, she gets really annoyed when
I wake her up in the middle of the night to show here a new FFS starship
spread sheet, I just don't understand her!)

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com


- -----Original Message-----
From: Leonard Erickson <shadow@krypton.rain.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, November 25, 1997 4:42 AM
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions


>In mail you write:
>
>> I've basically been declassifying any planet with a TL 0 - 4 as an X,  TL
>> 4 - 6 as an E (Airports are noted but do not have facilities for
star/space
>> craft), and TL 6 - 9 as D class ports (Spaceports but not equipt for
>> Starships).
>
>Sorry, but by the definition of E *any* plamnet can have one once
>contacted. The ancient Egyptians could have managed a damn good type E.
>One almost up to D standards, except for the lack of fuel (though if
>you count water as unrefined fuel, they could manage a D by running
>canals to the port.

<Some excellent ideas saved and snipped>

>Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
> shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
>leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2126
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, November 25 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2127



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Unix Traveller Programs
SayBOOM is ashamed to present...
Re: Sector data revisions
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2125 
THUDDD 7 - Results on Web
Insurance rates
Re: THUDDD 7 - Results on Web
Re: Al Morai
Voting for top game
Starport Procedures and Fees, and other questions.
Re: Detection tasks
Traveller/MT Auction 
Re: Unix Traveller Programs
FFS2 Advanced Scout design

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:41:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Unix Traveller Programs

There are a bunch of generic C programs out there from the old sunbane
archives, either through Joe Heck's site or from the MPGN archives.

They were originally written, iirc with Unix in mind.

I have a very nice postscript subsector mapping program (sub2ps) which was
part of these at my web site: 

<http://www.u.arizona.edu/~bjohnson/tprogs.html>

It doesn't use the 'standard' sector datafiles, but a real kludge of a
Quickbasic program (sectmass) is on my web site to break them up into
datafiles for the mapping program. I take all the blame for that one...

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs


On Tue, 25 Nov 1997, Andrew Akins wrote:

> I just recently made the switch to Linux, and I was wondering if there
> were any unix programs out there that people have written or are using
> for Traveller and RPGs in general.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> -- 
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | Andrew Akins                                                       |
> | Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
> | Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
> | May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
> | sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
> | daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
> | gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
> | lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
> |                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
> +--------------------------------------------------------------------+
> 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:53:28 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: SayBOOM is ashamed to present...

The L.I.M.P. (Laser Irritant Mechanism, Pelvic)

SayBOOM have realized that certain less-developed, inadequate little life
forms have scaredy-cat "reservations" about using everyone's favorite adult
military novelty, the PMPP.  For these _wimps_, who need all the help they
can get, there is now the LIMP: a CLC laser front-arm with nearly the
damage potential of the PMPP and none of the recoil.  This makes it
suitable for use by expectant mothers, as well -- who are perhaps the
_only_ group who shouldn't be ashamed and humiliated beyond words to pack
such a flaccid knockoff of the PMPP.

Heating of the barrel is still a hazard, as is wobble and "boing" when
firing in motion.  The frame has been reinforced for melee combat, to
compensate for its patheic lameness.  The pop-up holster and laser
targeting sight of the original PMPP are retained.  (Unlike those cheap,
shoddy battery-powered novelty items imported from the Solomani Rim, the
L.I.M.P. carries a ten-year, no-questions-asked warrantee.)

Weapon Type:            TL-12 5cm CLC laser handgun
Pulse Energy:           26 kJ, required energy: 47.3 kJ
Weapon Length:          29.3 cm
Weapon Weight:          3.793 kg loaded, 3.226 kg empty, with no magazine
Weapon Price:           Cr2417
Magazine Weight:        0.567 kg
Magazine Price:         Cr2.84 (6-shot grip magazine)
Features:               no stock or sight, melee weapon frame, laser sight

Mark Miller's Traveller
Name                  Damage  TL   Range   Shots  Mass    Reloads   Cost
Dildo, 13x38mm laser    8     12   Medium    6   3.8 kg   0.567 kg  2420

              Short   Medium  Long    Extreme
Range         80      160     320     640
Intensity     0.026   0.010   0.003   0.001
DV            0       0       0       0
Dam Dice      8       5       3       1
IPR           0       0       0       0
Pen Rtg       Nil     Nil     Nil     Nil

Traveller: TNE
Name              ROF   DamVal  PenRtg  Bulk   Magaz  SS  Burst   S Range
5cm CLC novelty   SA 1    8      Nil     1      6     0     0     80 (80)
                  1x3     5
                  1x5     4
                  1x10    3
                  1x50    1

(Designed using FF&S1 Excel spreadsheets created by Antti Lahtinen.)

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang Page:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:20:21 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

Michael D. Peters writes:

>I think we are more in agreemnet than it seems. I am speaking from the stand
>point of an early M0 campaign, where most of the worlds haven't been
>recontacted yet. The current data from The M0 Campaign (First Survey) seems
>to reflect a much higher percentage of construction capable 'ports on low
>tech planets than is (IMHO) reasonable when layed out againt the percentages
>of contact worlds in given sectors, also form M0 data. I merely wahted to
>throw this point out for consideration if the data is EVER reconstructed. I
>also think it reflects the problem with a world generation system that was
>'built' for a Classic Traveller universe, where most of the worlds have
>already had some contact with starfareing races.

   You raise an interesting point.  The situation relative to interstellar
contact (or lack thereof) is different in different eras.  While it would
make perfect sense that worlds with a 'X' starport are interdicted if we are
talking about M:1100, it is a much fuzzier issue when you are talking about
M:0, or even M:1200.  In fact in the latter case many worlds have had their
starports and spaceports destroyed and never rebuilt.

   Same goes for worlds that have starports in excess of their
technology--easy to justify in M:1100 and M:1200, much more dificult to
justify in M:0 and impossible to justify when you go back even further to
the era when there was genuine "uninhabited" regions (in quotes because the
native non-starfaring, non-human populations may object to not being counted
:-)  ).

>At the end of the Long Night, I would expect to see far more planets in the
>"degraded" catagory than not. Yet the available data, and the random
>genration rules, don't really reflect this.

   Ultimately there may need to be seperate rules for generating worlds in
each era as was done with M:1200 (actually the "seperate rules" for creating
subsectors in TNE consisted of the standard subsector generation sequence
which yielded a nice healthy, civilized subsector which you then "collapsed"
using the Collapse Determination sequence).  I would like to see things be a
universal as possible however, since it will make reading the data easier
(and less complex).

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 15:33:28 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2125 

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:
>"John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>:
>>I have some problems with some of the figures for nuclear rockets.
>>[...]
>>However, I'm assuming that the TL 8 advanced NTR is a liquid core nuclear
>>rocket.  The Isp of such a rocket is around 1500 seconds. The fuel
>>consumption should be more like 3.1 m3/hr/kN not the 4.17 listed. 
>>Also, the gas core nuclear rocket is rather under-powered.  All the
>>figures I've seen have rated it as having an Isp of between 2500 & 10,000
>>seconds.
>
>I used George Herbert's numbers (which were what were supposed to go in
>FFS2 in the first place). He has ISP=850 for a low-tech NTR (basically
>NERVA.) The TL-8 advanced NTR is actually Timberwind (ISP 1200); there 
>isn't a liquid NTR present. He quotes ISP 2000 for the gas core NTR,
>which is conservative, but not overly so for a rocket type never yet 
>constructed...In a variant campaign without contra-grav you might consider
>cranking it up for the late TL-9/early TL-10 versions, I suppose. 
>George does rocket science for a living - further criticism should be taken 
>to him on Trav Tech, I think.

If this turns into an extensive discussion, yes, it should go
to trav-tech, but a bit more on the general lists won't hurt (I hope 8-)

Liquid-core NTRs are not as simple as people make them out to be.
I do not believe that a liquid-core engine or advanced gas core
engine will be practical in the next 15 years.  If you play
the traveller tech level game you get fusion before the more
advanced NTRs come into feasibility.  Alternate technology
proposals are interesting but not terribly game-efficient
(you should see the extra info in the early versions of the
new rockets table!  8-)

>(My personal beef with the table - which I didn't change - is that the
>TL-8 rockets are actually allmost all 1970s things like SSME and RD-180,
>which gets into the whole definition of tech level question...)

Yeah, this never really settled out to everyone's satisfaction.
The logic behind my selection was that while those engines were
prototyped in the 70s, they really weren't operational until
the mid-1980s, so they were placed at the point they became
practical rather than earliest possibly available.  
Several of the other group members didn't like that.
I would be happy to discuss the details (and provide
anyone with the earlier working versions of the tables,
for the serious gearheads) on more appropriate lists
as I have time available.  

And now back to re-reading the newest edition of Huzel & Hwang...


- -george william herbert
Retro Aerospace
gherbert@crl.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:50:09 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 7 - Results on Web

A bit sooner than I'd expected, THUDDD 7 results are available online at
the THUDDD site,

  http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/thuddd.html

Follow the link to THUDDD 7.

As nearly all discussion of the entries this time around happened publicly
on one or more of these lists, I'm not going to re-post these discussion.
For THUDDD 8, there will be an text-box field into which comments may be
entered while voting.

Speaking of THUDDD 8, our tentative schedule for future THUDDDs shows us
doing a Subsidized Merchant next.  Is that OK with everyone, or is there
strong preference for something else? 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 16:23:47 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Insurance rates

Hello,
>>>the pirate is 10%. Finally, let's assume that most pirates are loopy enough
>>>to only capture cargoes and that the chance of losing the ship is only 10% of
>>>the chance of losing the cargo. Insurance payments would then come to an
>>>addtional Cr360/T for cargo carried to the dangerous system.

  Sorry, your calculations are correct. However, wouldn't the cargo
insurance charge be the problem of the owner of the goods (whether
that be the party at either pick-up or delivery end)? In that case,
the carrier may not be liable short of a court case.

  For spec cargos, a trader would still want third party insurance.

  FWIW, even a 0.1% chance of a ship-stealing piracy event seems high,
or most small ships would be stolen before their 40-year nominal life
was over.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:28:36 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 7 - Results on Web

At 04:50 PM 11/25/97 -0800, you wrote:

>Speaking of THUDDD 8, our tentative schedule for future THUDDDs shows us
>doing a Subsidized Merchant next.  Is that OK with everyone, or is there
>strong preference for something else? 

Do a subby... with the Andy Akins spreadsheet, you'll get some interesting
results..

Some suggestions for future THUDDDS:

Luxury Liner, ala The King Richard of FASA fame

Very low tech in-system hauler.

Survey scout.

We might also consider placing budget limits and stricter performance
requirements..  so far, there has been an element of free spending which
leads to many designs showing a "gold-plated" aspect that only a Pentagon
procurement officer could love.
- --
+-------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry        dberry@hooked.net |
|       http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
+-------------------------------------------+
| "The concentration of troops can be done  |
|         fast and easy, on paper."         |
|            -Field Marshal Radomir Putnik  |
+-------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:41:57 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Al Morai

>Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:13:08 +0100 (MET)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: Re: Insurance & Mega-corps
....
>of cargo space and carries 30 passengers. Crew size is not mentioned, but the
>Tukera carrier has 15 crew. It is Jump-4 and 1G.

  The canonical Cr 1000 per jump can reasonably be assumed to allow
some sort of premium for longer-jumps/faster deliveries.

  A ship this size may also want its own TL 11/12 cargo handling kit;
the staff can double as security guards. Maintenance lay-ups can also
be minimized by having an extra warm body or two (/guards) doing pull
and replace operations, etc.

>Operating expenses for one of these babies would be:
....
>Maintenance: 809,000/year; and profit and bank payments: 50,562,500/year, for
>a total of Cr57,432,700.

  Odd question for the economists/accountants out there - if the corp
finances its own ships from capital, how would the return on the total
investment work out? I guesstimate max revenue (see below) of ~MCr 80,
less 5-8 MCr ship-specific outlay, for approx. MCr 75 net, or around
9%, before reinvestment/depreciation, and dividends, and less lost
(partial) interest earnings for the ship construction period.

>if you assume less than 100% utilization and more trips per year (IMO a 
>scheduled liner should be able to make a jump every 10 days on the average,
>but that is, of course, not canonical)).

  IIRC, compelling arguments have been made for the two-week period
being for spec traders. The ten day period makes a good guideline
for optimized scheduled runs.

>1) How does four patrol ships protect Al Morai carriers in 52 different
>   systems at a time? By implied threat?

  These space-cows produce 120 (HG) EP's. Two for c-4, 30 for Agility
one, and 88 for lots of safety lights? Or twenty-something triple beam
turrets and possibly a comp 5? This means external pirates and small
warships can go <beep> themselves, or just die. Gunnery crew (HG) is a
bit over one or two per battery. IN subsidies for upgraded (fib?) comps
for use as wartime auxiliaries may exist.

>   close to MCr60 per year, but they only net about MCr10. 

  If they run to tight schedules - no on-site speculation, just booked
priority cargo and passengers in a hurry, then ten-day turnaround is a
good thing, and reasonable (~"economics drives [most] things"). This
roughly changes things to 80 MCr gross, and close to MCr 30 net, even
with over-rated operations costs; ~4% is much more believable. Ground
facility charges are separate, but integral brokerage services and
contract service providers should minimize payouts. In fact, these may
run at a small profit while covering charges that are effectively
invisible in the game (to prevent it from becoming "cost-accountancy
in sp-a-a-ce...").

>2) Does Al Morai's four _Gazelles_ protect all the competition as well

  How about if the Gazelles are the in-house trouble-shooting vessels
for the company, or are available for really hot priority small packages.
The company has a clear interest in ensuring compliance to internal
security by its own staff, and to provide security against hostile ops.
Again, as CE's, IN subsidy for purchase (from the IN, obviously) may exist.

BTW, if anyone has a spare copy of _Spinward Marches Campaign_, I'd
be very interested in purchasing it or trading.

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1997 00:30:18 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Voting for top game

I found this on the B5 list.  Maybe we should all send in votes?

==========

Salutations. Some of you may remember the UK magazine, Arcane?

Issue #14 (December 1996) featured a top fifty Roleplaying Games of
all times article. This was voted for by the readership of Arcane, who
sent the magazine their top ten nominations. The numbers were then
added up to form a top fifty.

As a reminder, the top ten were as follows:

10  CYBERPUNK 2020
09  STAR WARS
08  SHADOWRUN
07  PARANOIA
06  VAMPIRE : THE MASQUERADE
05  RUNEQUEST
04  WARHAMMER FANTASY ROLEPLAY
03  TRAVELLER
02  ADVANCED DUNGEONS & DRAGONS
01  CALL OF CTHULHU


I'm curious to see how the top fifty would be affected by the new
games, new editions et cetera introduced in the past year or so, and so
I'm (possibly rather foolishly... :)  ) conducting a survey...



The Top Fifty Roleplaying Games Of All Time Survey (TOP50)
==========================================================

Purpose :   To determine the top fifty roleplaying games of all time,
			as voted for by the subscribers of rec.games.frp.misc.


Method  :   E-mail your top ten RPGs (with number 1 your absolute
			favourite, all the way down to ten, your 'least favourite'
			favourite (er... does that make sense? :)  )


Scoring :   Position        Points
               10             01
               09             02
               08             03
               07             04
               06             05
               05             06
               04             07
               03             08
               02             09
               01             10

            The RPGs will then be fitted into the top fifty according
            to the points they garner, with the top (#1) RPG being the
            one with the most points, the fiftieth being the one with
            the least points and so on.


Voting  :   Please send your votes to TOP50@magus.powernet.co.uk.

			You can do a quick response by replying to this mail, as it has
            a 'voting form' somewhere around here somewhere...

			Alternatively, you can go so far as to send me a 'new' mail. 

            I'll need to know your name and e-mail address* (just to
            make sure as much as possible that no vote-rigging occurs
            :) ) and your list of top ten RPGs. If you only have an
            opinion on some, just vote for the ones you know.

            The closing date for voting will be Wednesday, December 31
            1997.


Results :   The results will be posted to rec.games.frp.misc on or
            around Sunday, January 3rd 1998.


Rules   :   1) One entry per person only.

            2) Any roleplaying game released in 1997 or previously,
               whether or not currently in print, may be voted for. 

            3) Games with multiple editions will be considered a single
               game, i.e. votes for Vampire and Vampire : Second
               Edition will be considered votes for Vampire.


VOTING FORM 

If you like you can simply reply to this e-mail, using the rough 'form'
below:


=======================================================================
Your Name           :

Your e-mail address :

=======================================================================

TOP TEN:

Position    Points      Title
========    ====== ====================================================
   01         10
   02         09
   03         08
   04         07
   05         06
   06         05
   07         04
   08         03
   09         02
   10         01
========    ====== ====================================================

         
I'd be grateful if you would participate in my survey. Aside from a bit of
thinking time to select your top ten (if you haven't already done so long 
ago :)
) it should not take long.

I know that 'best' is an awfully subjective term, and that it is largely a
matter of personal taste, but I'm keen to see whether with a large enough 
number
of voters we can perhaps see if there is a consensus out there on some of 
the
best...

I'd like to thank you (in advance) for your assistance. If you have any
questions, comments, suggestions or criticisms please feel free to e-mail 
me. 



Thanks very much!


Martin Goodson (Kaemaril@magus.powernet.co.uk)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:45:30 -0500
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Starport Procedures and Fees, and other questions.

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I'm a new TML member, and this is my first post... so be kind.  :o)

Let's say my Free Trader jumps into a system and proceeds to the main
world starport (up or down).  Obviously there must be approach
procedures, 'inbound' and 'outbound' lanes, communication protocols, and
traffic control.  Can anyone give me pointers to info on this?

Once docked, there must be more red tape, inspections, paperwork
(electronic, I'd assume), and fees.  Any info on this as well?

On an unrelated topic:  is there any good reason why the Imperium has
physical currency?  Why would electronic funds transfers NOT be
universal?  Is this simply an artifact of the age of the Traveller game?

Lastly: The way computers are handled in the Traveller game is obviously
dated, coming from the mainframe mindset.  Does anyone have better
background info on how to run computers in Traveller?  Here's an example
of the kind of thing I'm talking about:  Joe PC has Navigation 2.  Joe's
computer has a Nav program that gives it the equivalent of Nav 2.  Does
Joe's Nav tasks get the advantage of Nav 2?  Does the computer need Joe
at all to use the Nav 2 skill?  Perspiring Readers want to know.
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------------------------------

Date: 26 Nov 1997 00:38:26 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Detection tasks

Bruce, I've had an idea:

Rather than vary the task difficulty, have the randomness tell the referee
how long it would take to notice whatever the players are looking for?  The
more patient they are, the more they will see.  Greater range and camoflage
would increase required time, better equipment and skill would lower it.

For time-critical situations (eg. starship combat), we could still have a
task roll to notice something _within a turn_.


Would this be workable?

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:42:21 -0500
From: Craig Janssen <daili@remove.me.gate.net>
Subject: Traveller/MT Auction 

In a vain attempt to get some more space, I am going to be auctioning off quite
a few items. There is a large Traveller related section.

The auction will be held off my WWW pages, and posted to .marketplace newsgroups
every 3 days or so.

The url is:

http://www.gate.net/~daili/auction.htm

I am in the process of getting the bids online, so don't panic ;-)

Craig Janssen

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 21:55:34 -0600
From: Me as a regular user <markn@wavefront.com>
Subject: Re: Unix Traveller Programs

> I just recently made the switch to Linux, and I was wondering if there
                                     ^^^^^^^^
Smart move.
> were any unix programs out there that people have written or are using
> for Traveller and RPGs in general.

Funny you should ask.  I've just recently rejoined this list after
relocating, and have been working on a suite of programs for
sector/system/world editing.  I'm using a cross platform set of
libraries which allow me to move the source to several other OSes
(or what passes for an OS....).  I have a completed sector viewer
(with the exception of printing under windows), and am working on 
a system generator/editor (looking like these will be split into
two programs.....).  I also text only version of something which
makes WBH data (pretty rough, my first c++ program), which I hope
to move to a more GUI front end (how, I don't know yet).

I haven't done anything about trying to get it out yet because of
the GNU liscensing and my current library scheme (which is pretty
hideous), and I really don't have good ftp/http location to put it
up at (any offers? :)

> Thanks.
Don't thank me yet ;), there's a long way to go.....

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 19:52:21 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: FFS2 Advanced Scout design

Ferret class advanced Scout (FF&S v2)				
Designed by Bruce Macintosh (BAMTech)				
				
Statistics				
Tons: 100std ( SL Wedge Hypersonic ) Crew: 2/2	Cargo: 8std (1/0)
Volume: 1,400m3		   Passengers High/Med: 0/0	Cost: 231.039 MCr
Mass (L/C): 1,258t/1,162t  Passengers Low: 0	Maintenance Points: 45
Dimensions: 35.0m x 24.0m x 10.0m Troops/Science: 0/0	Tech Level: 12
Size: 8		Frozen Watch: 0(0 group)	
				
Electronics				
Controls: Dynamic, High automation. 3xComp (CM:0.4 CP:2.5). 
	Terrain following sensors (TF:480, NOE:160). No bridge.			
Communications: 1xRadio (500,000km, 0.17MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW). 			
Sensors: 1xSci PEMS (13.5 [16mkm] Sci, 0.01MW). 1xAEMS (11.5 [.5mkm], 2.50MW). 1xLIDAR (14.5 [500kkm], 0.60MW). 			
Survey/Science: 1xDensiometer (7.5 [16km]). 1xNeutrino (8 [50km], 1.00MW). 			
ECM: advanced masking, military black hull			
Signatures: Vis:-1.5, IR:-0.5 (-1.0 at 10MW), Act:-0.5, Neu:0, Grav:0			
				
Weaponry		Performance	
1 Empty turret 		2	Jump (10std/pc fuel)
  socket (3 std,2.3 MW)	2.0/2.3	Maneuver (/Thruster:63MW)
	 		1.4/1.6	Contra-grav (31MW)
	 		3,383kph/3,524kph Atmosphere 
			(/Crus:2,537kph/2,643kph)
	 		2	Power (/Fusion:104MW,1.0)
	 		21.1	Fuel (/Scoop:2 /Purif:6,2MW)
		 	0/0/4/0/0	Accomodations
	 		24	Life Support (/Type:Ex /FQ:Nm /'Sto)
		 	2	G-Comp 
	 		10 [29]	Armor, Structure 6
				
Features				
			1xDecontamination Airlock	
	 		1xShip's locker (0.05std ea.)	 
	 		1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:0)			
				
				
Small Craft				
	1xMinimal Hangar (4std air/raft, 1 hatches)		 	 
	 		 	 				
Backups				
	Sensors: 1xSci PEMS (13 [5mkm] Sci). 			
				
Crew Details				
	1xMnvr. 1xElec.


The Ferret class advanced scout is a BAMTech design concept study for a 
 replacement for the standard scout/courier, optimized for exploration -
 with an extremely advanced sensor suite, centered around a P1350S science
 array, capable of resolving human-sized targets at ranges of 100,000km or
 mapping the surface of a planet at the 1km level from 1 AU away.
 The ship also has a secondary military intelligence gathering roll, with
 a MidNite black hull coating and advanced IR masking; the same sensor
 suite allows it to detect powered-down military targets at a range of
 several million km.

Much of the cost of the ship is its sensor suite. Courier and military
 versions often delete the neutrino sensor and the science optimization on
 the main sensor array, reducing the cost by MCr 100 and freeing up an 
 additional 1 MW for weaponry.

The scout is also designed for long-endurance operations, with closed-
 cycle air and water recycling and 16 weeks of carried food supplies.

If the advanced scout is in common useage, Scout characters can obtain one
 in place of a regular type S (when awarded on mustering out) on a roll of
 10+, +1 for Pilot 3+. Such ships usually have the reduced sensor capability;
 roll 10+ again, +1 for Sensor 3+, to retain the full sensor suite.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2127
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 26 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2128



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

re: Detection tasks
Re: Unix Traveller Programs
re: Detection tasks
Re: L.A.B.R.Y.S.?
Re: Injury
re: Detection tasks
Re: Starport Procedures and Fees, and other questions.
re: Detection tasks
Re: using sensors for survey or science
Going to UK - CORE/BITS Stuff
Re: THUDDD 7 Results!
Re: THUDDD 7 - Ideas?
Re: Star Diameters
Scholars
Re:Vilani Society, a commentar
Re: Detection tasks
Re: Sector data revisions
Re: sector names
Re: Going to UK - CORE/BITS Stuff
Re: Unix Traveller Programs
re: Detection tasks

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:04:32 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Detection tasks

>   Making the task duration for N tries equal to 4^(N-1) days is a pretty
>   hefty increase.  The `N^2 days' duration I mentioned earlier is more
>   realistic.

Note that I was making the task one level easier on each successive
iteration - which (roughly for T4, precisely for TNE) doubles your
chance of success. Doubling your chance of success requires (2)^2=4
times as much time for each successive iteration. (Although, on mature
consideration (and some checks on my latest Keck exoplanet models) I think
the first attempt for GG planets should be ~2 hours, not ~1 day.)

>Keep in mind that the `N^2 days' convention is not some
>   game rule that I made up; it is a real-life law of nature used by us
>   physicists when we schedule time on atom smashers and telescopes.

Physicists don't schedule time on telescopes. Astronomers do. I'm perfectly
well aware of how signal-to-noise scales in a background-noise limited;
it's less clear how to model that in T4's weird task system. 

Dr. Bruce Macintosh (PhD, astronomy, UCLA, 1994)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 20:57:22 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Unix Traveller Programs

>I just recently made the switch to Linux, and I was wondering if there
>were any unix programs out there that people have written or are using
>for Traveller and RPGs in general.

This isn't going to be of much help, but....

Way back in '92 or '93 there was a program being developed for Linux that
had something to do with RPGs, but I think it was D&D related.  You can
probably find it on tsx-11.mit.edu or sunsite.unc.edu I think it would be
in the games section, but who knows.  It's been years, but it's probably
still on one of those two sites, stuff from that era always ended up on one
of those two if not both.

I think Joe Heck has something on his web page that you can compile.  Look
for SYSGEN it's a MegaTraveller era system generator based on the old DGP
World book.  I've compiled it on the Mac, don't know if I ever compiled it
on Linux.

Grab Executor (the Mac Emulator), and you can run CSC, and maybe a few
other Mac programs.  Some of the _OLD_ PC stuff might run in the Dos
Emulator.

				Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                       |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them.    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html            |

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 97 22:28:10 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: re: Detection tasks

On 11/25/97 at 09:06 AM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>Hmm - informally, how many people would prefer a table that tells you how
>long you have to look in a given situation, with no real task rolls
>involved, to the approach I previously posted.

For tasks like detecting a planet sized object it might make more sense to
do it with a table.  Guidelines about times and distances would be good
too, that way GM's can "adjust" the effort needed to make detections to the
needs of the game.

Eris 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:34:24 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: L.A.B.R.Y.S.?

Kenji wrote:

>Roderick wrote:
>
[snip]>>        I'm afraid.  I'm very afraid.  That acronym has just got to be
>>attached to something so totally warped...
>
>Actually... not really.  A "labrys" is a double-bladed axehead; it was
>particualrly common as a design motif (in masonry) in the Minoan
>civilization (and is the source of the term "labyrinth", I'm told.)
>Somehow or another it was also associated with the Amazons in later Greek
>literature.  Nowadays it's been "reclaimed" and is a pretty popular
>jewelry/T-shirt/tattoo/whatever design among womon-identified womyn.  And
>anyone else trying to score some of that chic/make a buck of that market.
>


	Yeah.  This I was aware of.  That, in the light of SAYBOOM's recent
PMPP effort, had me reaching for the ol' superdense athletic supporter-14
:).


>The Sayat LABRYS is just a TL-12 laser rifle.  Tries to be Sayatish in
>style (long range, low ROF, lightweight, great batteries).  But, like I
>said, yawn.

	Yeah... one of the reasons I haven't been doing any energy weapons
is, aside from the lower humor potential (at least I thought so until the
PMPP), the design sequence isn't really detailed to the point where you can
get over-the-top and twisted...


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 23:21:33 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Injury

At 04:10 PM 11/24/97 -0700, Dave Golden wrote:
>snip<
>	Agreed--but 240 meters in _anything?

Hmm.. I had the 250kg iron bomb from EA penetrating alot less that
240meters, did you remember to to divide by two? ? But I can recheck my
figures.

>snip<
>	Interesting. What kind of stone? I based my original disbelief
>of the CSC results on a rather nifty program left over from my
>first assignment--calculates cratering, projectile damage, etc.
>for both small nuclear and HE explosions in earth over stone. I
>set the earth thickness to 0, and came up with a MUCH smaller
>number for crater radius than 240m. Or perhaps it was crater
>depth--the point is, a damage system that doesn't account for the
>differences between penetration, blast, energy and cratering-type
>damage can lead to some ridiculous numbers. And I can guarantee
>you that none of the examples you provided will penetrate to a
>bunker under 240m of granite. The US Air Force just updated its
>deep-penetration bunker killer, and it's a nuke with quite a bit
>more destructive capability* than a 250kg iron bomb AND a
>specially-designed casing to ensure it penetrates quite a ways
>into dirt or soft surface materials before detonating.

As to what type of stone what ever makes up Goat Island off the california
coast. I am not clsoe tobe any type of geolgist.<G>
The !6 inch naval rifle's semi armor piercing projo will penetrate over ten
meters of ground/soil(earth, stone etc.) before detonating. The Armor
piercing projo from a 16 inch will penetrate more than 20 meters of soil
before detonating.

But will the AF talk about the nuke called "Davy Crocket" our version of
the polish nuclear handgrenade. It was nuke tipped bazooka that the firer
could not get out of the primary blast radii. It was may undertanding that
the USSR had some interesting warheads for NORAD to get down to the roots
so to speak.

AS for what CSC means by stone well it could be sandstone or limestone not
always granite.

>	As for that being a minor quirk, any of the people who run more
>military oriented or mercenary type campaigns might disagree.
>It's one thing to apply common sense to the TNE rule that a
>shotgun in the mouth has a 15% chance of missing. It's quite
>another thing to give completely bogus results to players with NO
>way of estimating the real results (which you can do with the
>shotgun; quite a bit harder to do with large explosions ...)

Well in that case I would suggest ME rather than T4. But by the same token
the IS types find fault with ENIAC sized computers that FFS2 uses.

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 06:34:46 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: re: Detection tasks

Just one question on the detection task. What should one role against?
The obvious quess is to use the sensor-skill, but that dosn't really
sound right. Maybe a joined astrogation/astronomy and sensor-task.
Has anybody any thoughts on this? 

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "That which do not kill you, 
Norway                      makes you stronger."

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 22:53:30 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: Starport Procedures and Fees, and other questions.

Michael Kent wrote:
>I'm a new TML member, and this is my first post... so be kind.  :o)

Howdy.

>Let's say my Free Trader jumps into a system and proceeds to the main
>world starport (up or down).  Obviously there must be approach
>procedures, 'inbound' and 'outbound' lanes, communication protocols, and
>traffic control.  Can anyone give me pointers to info on this?

Little is described in the official rules.  I settle it by using what I
remember from pilot classes, with the wretched airspace near LAX modelling
a typical class B, and the friendly open skies of the great plains as the
approach to the average class D.
>
>Once docked, there must be more red tape, inspections, paperwork
>(electronic, I'd assume), and fees.  Any info on this as well?

Much of the paperwork is still going to be physical in the early Imperium,
as computer systems should not yet be screamingly compatible.  Later in the
Imperial era, the Imperium's military contracts are large enough to wag the
corporate dogs, and so there ends up a lot more consistency.

>On an unrelated topic:  is there any good reason why the Imperium has
>physical currency?  Why would electronic funds transfers NOT be
>universal?  Is this simply an artifact of the age of the Traveller game?

Electronic funds transfers require electronic speeds.  This makes perfect
sense on one world, but makes less sense across multiple worlds.
Especially since Traveller has always had a (imho far to significant) tech
level spread, this means that if the currency is the product of the highest
tech worlds, they only have to watch for counterfeiters at similar places.
Lower tech worlds cannot comprehend the stuff, let alone fake it.

Given the one week per jump feature of the system, I suspect EFTs will not
become popular.  I do play that they are used regularly on single worlds,
just not when travelling.

>Lastly: The way computers are handled in the Traveller game is obviously
>dated, coming from the mainframe mindset.

I am now thinking that they might be closer than I first thought.  I do
tend to underemphasize just what people are doing with all of that
computing power, but having recently had the pleasure of looking at the
control systems for a large oil refinery, I now am ok with the size of the
traveller computers.  Embedded controls systems are just huge.  Admittedly,
the actual board doing the computation is the size of a small book, but the
garbage hanging off of it is monstrous, and seems to get larger as the tech
gets better.

>  Does anyone have better
>background info on how to run computers in Traveller?  Here's an example
>of the kind of thing I'm talking about:  Joe PC has Navigation 2.  Joe's
>computer has a Nav program that gives it the equivalent of Nav 2.  Does
>Joe's Nav tasks get the advantage of Nav 2?  Does the computer need Joe
>at all to use the Nav 2 skill?  Perspiring Readers want to know.

The computer is a decent expert system that can handle everyday tasks.  I
have my game set up so that a rather unimaginative level one computer is
pretty easy to find.  Anything worth doing, though, is done with the aid
and assistance of a level 2 or higher person, who can use the level one
machine to sweat the small stuff, while they look for anomalies.

Along the same lines, I play that when a person is bereft of the computer
support they usually use, they may lose up to a level of skill, because
they are now being hit with details they usually can ignore.  People who
routinely play their characters as doing things cautiously do not suffer
from this negative, as they are assumed to do back of the envelope
calculations as a matter of course, but this kind of person tends to be
rather slow.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:41:22 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: re: Detection tasks

>Hmm - informally, how many people would prefer a table that tells you
>how long you have to look in a given situation, with no real task rolls
>involved, to the approach I previously posted.
>
>Bruce

I'd go for that but that is because I'll have to adopt the figures to my
own task system which is far easier this way. As most of you probably use
T4 I'd say my vote doesn't really count.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:50:54 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: using sensors for survey or science

>Sensor Sensivitity      Maximum Range (parsecs)
>13                      2
>13.5                    20
>14                      200
>14.5                    500
>15.0+                   1000

Isn't there some error here?
Each +0.5 equals x10 surface area or signature decreases as range squared
and thus the table should be like this:

Sensitivity   Range
===================
13            2
14            20
15            200
16            2000

BTW Couldn't we just calculate this based on surface area of a typical
gasgiant with illumination from Luminosity = 1 star at say 5 AU, then
adding a modifier for integration time?


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:26:37 -0600
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Going to UK - CORE/BITS Stuff

Tomorrow (Wednesday), my wife and I will begin a two-week long vacation to
the British Isles.  Does anyone know of any really good game shops in
London or Edinburgh?  Especially one where I might purchase some of the
CORE/BITS products?


Thanks!

- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:19:55 -0600
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 7 Results!

> From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
> 
> On behalf of the Imperial Shipbuilders Association, the THUDDD Board of
> Directors, the Imperial Navy, and most especially our gracious
sovereign,
> Cleon I, I am very please to announce the winner of the IN-50 Heavy
> Fighter prototype development contract...
> 
> The MF357 Drachen Jaeger Class Heavy Fighter, submitted by Zusa and
> Associates!


Congratulations to Zusa and Associates!

Also, Thanks, Craig for your labor.  WhizzoDyne salutes you! 


<WHIZZ>

Sa-Lute!

<\WHIZZ>


- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:15:49 -0600
From: "vanya" <vanya@partyline.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 7 - Ideas?

> >Speaking of THUDDD 8, our tentative schedule for future THUDDDs shows
us
> >doing a Subsidized Merchant next.  Is that OK with everyone, or is
there
> >strong preference for something else? 
> 
> Do a subby... with the Andy Akins spreadsheet, you'll get some
interesting
> results..

Agreed!

> Some suggestions for future THUDDDS:

Long Endurance Scout Ship/ System Survey Ship
:	A medium-sized (3k-5k dt?) scout ship capable of extended exploration
and mapping missions.

Seeker:
	In-system asteroid prospector boat.  (I've been playing too much Belter
lately.)


> We might also consider placing budget limits and stricter performance
> requirements..  so far, there has been an element of free spending which
> leads to many designs showing a "gold-plated" aspect that only a
Pentagon
> procurement officer could love.

Speak for yourself!:)  WhizzoDyne Propulsion's entry for THUDDD7 was the
lowest-priced fighter craft.  The next THUDDD entry will continue the
*proud* tradition of WhizzoDyne's Trademarked Slogan "Quality on the
Cheap!(TM)"

- -Vanya                                         UPP-8D9B85
Traveller ---------------- Science Fiction Adventure in the Far Future
Meyers-Briggs personality type:ENTJ          | vanya@partyline.net
"...the ENTJ is not one to be trifled with." | dmoody@bridge.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:59:40 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Star Diameters

On 25 Nov 1997, Robert Eaglestone wrote:
[On formula for star diameter]
> 
> If I expect d(G2V) to yield just under 1 AU, then I suppose the
> formula would be something like

This would mean that the Earth's orbit would be just over the surface of
the Sun. Not good. B-)

(The diameter of the Sun is 6,96E8 metres, that is about 700 000 km. IIRC
the main sequence stars are all about the same size. Can't confirm that,
though)

Mikko Parviainen
- -- 
Respect you in the morning?  I don't respect you now!

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:53:04 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Scholars

Last Wednesday, while the group were fighting off a spacewreck
survivor-gone-mad, some security bots and several primitives who thought
the above were a god and his angels, Dr Arvni (anthrophogist) was beaten up
by Dr Brandt (linguist) over a theory sparked by a scrap of old date found
on a relic computer. Cjharacters came racing back upon hearing the sounds
of a ruckus, to find the scientists not desperately fending off a horde of
primitives, but bashing one another. (The reasons are a long story, but Dr
Arvni is definately Persona Non Grata.)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 97 11:47:00 GMT 
From: s.johnson107@genie.com
Subject: Re:Vilani Society, a commentar

On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:08:22 anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Wrote...
> A very interesting deduction (Vilani tracing its cultural roots to
> Droyne and Ancients customs). As for disliking them I'd say that I
> prefer Vilani to Solomani any day in light of what they have done
> during the Stellar wars and later.
     Given what the Vilani did to found the Ziru Sirka and then durring it...
whatever the Terrans did was MILD in comparison. ;)

>> Now think about the implications of this for a moment.  Around 300,000
>> BCE here on Earth our remote ancestors were solomnly considering if
>> coming out of the forest and leaving the safety of the trees was a good
>> idea or not!
>> They were NOT constructing legends to be handed down for the next few
>> hundred thousand years of the goings on around them!  Yet the Vilani
>> were, according to Vilani & Vargr and some other tantalizing trace
>> references in CT material.
>> [snip]
> This is an interesting thesis, but I have a few problems with what you
> said.  300k years ago we had already come out of the forests.  Homo
> erectus shows all the adaptations of savanna-dwelling runners from 1.5M
> years or so, IIRC.  Early Homo sapiens had evolved by 700k years ago.
> Human brains 300k years ago were not so much smaller than ours; it is
> quite conceivable that they were constructing legends by that time.
> (Of course, it's also conceivable that they were not.)
     Thank you, when I reread it I realized I'd badly Goofed the timeframe
for Human evolution.  Something about doing it at three in the morning to get
the idea up on the screen STS.  Thanks for catching and correcting me on
this, ;)

> It does seem rather implausible, though, that an oral tradition could
> survive for that long in any definitive form.  You have a point there.
     Well about the time of the Final War the early Vilani retreated to
REMOTE Mountain Valleys and stayed in them for hundreds of thousands of
years.  By necessity BTW, the Ancients left a BUNCH of nasty TL21+ war
machines behind to fight out the rest of the conflict for the rest of that
time.  So I suppose it's remotely possible that the Vilani invented writting
at some point and started putting those legends down on paper...  But writing
is SUCH a POWERFUL CATALYST that I really don't want it to have happened that
way.
     Still, I'm at a loss to explain the survival of such legends through
290,000+ years of oral transmission.  Heck even a century or two can distort
a known and recorded in writting incident beyond all recognition when passed
down that way.  Either V&V is wrong... or we've got some Very Interesting
explainations in store for us. ;)

Stephen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 01:46:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Detection tasks

In mail you write:

> Hmm - informally, how many people would prefer a table that tells you
> how long you have to look in a given situation, with no real task rolls
> involved, to the approach I previously posted.

How about a table that lists time to have a X in Y chance of detecting
what's there. On second thought, make that X in Y chance of *not* detecting.

That way you could have something like this:

???	1 in 6
???	1 in 36
???	1 in 216

There's a method to my madness. Say the players look for something for
the first period. You roll a die where they can't see it (if there's
nothing to find, this is just window dressing). If they keep trying,
when they hit the next break point, you roll *one* more die. And add
the result from the last time (which, we assume will be one). Or in
actuality, you just roll one die, and if it comes up 1, they missed
again.

This *is* realistic, as the "rolls" *do* add that way! The first
failure put them in the tail of the curve, subsequent rolls just move
them farther out.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 01:31:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Sector data revisions

In mail you write:

> My view, and why I am trying to clean up most of those, is that it should
> be unusual to land on a world that exports food, but that also has a
> tainted atmosphere,

Just consider that a high CO2 content is deadly, and thus counts as a
taint, but is easily handled by filtermasks, and wouldn't bother
planets at all. In fact the plants would love it.

There are some places in Africa where volcanic CO2 seeps to the surface
and accumulates in depressions in the terrain. The plants grow quite
nicely. Especially considering all the fertilizer they get from animals
that wander in and die.

I'd say that "excess CO2" as a taint *should* be pretty common. It fits
in nicely with the way we know planetary atmospheres work. And it has
some easy consequences. Such as either the local animal life is adapted
to it, or there's very little local animal life. In the later case it's
a "temporary" situation. In a few millenia, the CO2 level will go down
due to the work of the plants.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 02:11:02 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: sector names

In mail you write:

> One comment (as you ask for them!), the end of the file has this quote:
> /quote
> "Sigma Zephyrus" sector has now been located at (-5 -3).  This is the only
> example I know of where a sector is named in print which has never had its'
> location specified in print.  [Private communication with Clay Bush, HIWG.]
> /endquote
>
> I believe I may have another for you.  'Mission to Zephor' (a Group One
> 'adventure' - actually more just a world description) mentions the Xova II
> sector which I've never seen located anywhere.  Anyone have any ideas?
> (I've always worked on the assumption it doesn't actually fit into the
> 'standard' map in much the same way as my own Astoria Reaches is a
> 'standalone' sector).

There were some subsectors in a few adventures (for example the FASA
"Sky Raiders" stuff) that were never given an official position in the
sector. I may have picked a bad example, now that I think about it. I
think someone said that the FASA subsectors *were* given locations
later. But I still suspect that there are similar cases.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:56:53 +0000
From: Bruce E J Lewis <bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Going to UK - CORE/BITS Stuff

At 02:26 26/11/97 -0600, vanya wrote:
>Tomorrow (Wednesday), my wife and I will begin a two-week long vacation to
>the British Isles.  Does anyone know of any really good game shops in
>London or Edinburgh?  Especially one where I might purchase some of the
>CORE/BITS products?
>
Hi,

	You can get Traveller and BITS stuff from the following stores in London...

	Leisure Games
	91 Ballards Lane
	Finchley

	Call them on 0181-346-2327. They're not open on Sundays. Nearest Tube is
Finchley Central. Turn right after getting to the main road, and it's just
five minutes walk away.

	Also,

	Orc's Nest
	6 Earlham St
	London

	They sell Traveller stuff too. Earlham Street is at Cambridge Circus,
junction of Shaftesbury Avenue and Charing Cross Road, so isn't difficult
to find. Nearest Tube is Leicester Square and Tottenham Court Road. You can
call them on 0171-379-4254.

	Also,

	The Virgin Megastore in Oxford Street, corner of Oxford Street and
Tottenham Court Road sell IG stuff. Nearest Tube is also Tottenham Court
Road. You can call them on 0171-580-5822.

	And if you have trouble getting around or have trouble finding these
places, call me on the number below, as I work near the latter two mentioned.

	Good luck!


	See ya...

Bruce E J Lewis - mailto:bruce@legend.ftech.co.uk
Telephone - 0956-506527

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:45:19 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: Re: Unix Traveller Programs

The first generation of SYSGEN was UNIX, but that was a long, long time
ago. Most of the code is cross-platform and should probably still work,
though.

My recent work is all in Java and, of course, works on UNIX. I've tried it
all on Solaris with no problems. Is there a Java 1.1.4 engine for Linux?

Currently my X-term access has been cut off. If you have access to a Unix
machine with some form of Java 1.1 I'd be interested in a playtester for a
Traveller Trading game.

Cheers,

Jo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:28:37 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: re: Detection tasks

>
   Hi.
   
> From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
   
   [snippage --- my criticism of Bruce's suggestion]
   
> Note that I was making the task one level easier on each successive
> iteration - which (roughly for T4, precisely for TNE) doubles your
> chance of success. Doubling your chance of success requires (2)^2=4
   
   Doh!  I missed that completely.  Mea maxima culpa.
   
>>Keep in mind that the `N^2 days' convention is not some
>>   game rule that I made up; it is a real-life law of nature used by us
>>   physicists when we schedule time on atom smashers and telescopes.
   
> Physicists don't schedule time on telescopes. Astronomers do. I'm perfectly
> well aware of how signal-to-noise scales in a background-noise limited;
> it's less clear how to model that in T4's weird task system. 
   
   I guess my point came out as sounding snooty.  Astronomers certainly
   do the vast majority of all telescopic work in science --- I didn't
   mean to imply otherwise.  I merely wanted to point out that I've had
   some real experience with this issue (as have you, obviously).
   
> Dr. Bruce Macintosh (PhD, astronomy, UCLA, 1994)
   
   I apologize for assuming (without reason) you were a layman
   enthusiast.  Looking at the archives, I can plainly see that I would
   have known better if I hadn't just started reading this thread
   recently.  (Still, I should have guessed from your email address
   alone. )^8
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2128
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, November 26 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2129



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Did anyone scan in Diaspora from the Astrogator's Guide?
Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive
Re:Vilani Society, a commentar
Re: THUDDD 7 - Results on Web
Re:  Detection tasks
Re:  Detection tasks
Re:  using sensors for survey or science
Re: THUDDD 7 Results!
re: Detection tasks
THUDDD 7/8
Re: TML C&W song...
Re: Compiled Sector Data Available
Re:  Star Diameters
Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive
re: Vilani Society, a commentary
Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive
THUDDD 8 planning
Goodbye and Best wishes
Re: THUDDD 7 - Results on Web
Re: A modest CSC proposal
womon-identified womyn?
We have Fusion?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:15:48 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Did anyone scan in Diaspora from the Astrogator's Guide?

When I looked at the data from the 1100s, I noted that it did not seem to
have the names which were given in the Astrogator's Guide.

Anyone gotten those names in any machine readable form?

Scott


Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 08:45:19 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive

Robert Eaglestone <eaglesto@nortel.ca> suggested:
>Post information about your webpage for others' reference

jimv@empirenet.com                      Jim Vassilakos
www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv                    jimv's dinky little homepage
www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/progs.html         Programs (including "Galactic")
www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/tca/tca.html       Traveller Copyright Archive
www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/harrison.html      Harrison Chapters (story)

Heating the links as per Glenn's suggestion yields:

<mailto:jimv@empirenet.com>                  Jim Vassilakos
<http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv>                jimv's dinky little homepage
<http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/progs.html>     Programs (including "Galactic")
<http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/tca/tca.html>   Traveller Copyright Archive
<http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv/harrison.html>  Harrison Chapters (story)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:09:31 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re:Vilani Society, a commentar

Stephen Johnson wrote:

>     Still, I'm at a loss to explain the survival of such legends through
>290,000+ years of oral transmission.  Heck even a century or two can distort
>a known and recorded in writting incident beyond all recognition when passed
>down that way.  Either V&V is wrong... or we've got some Very Interesting
>explainations in store for us. ;)

These "legends" and "oral traditions" needn't actually date from the period
~-200k.y.a., they just need to be _attributed_ to that period.  Maybe they
actually grew up at certain point(s) in later Vilani civilization,
reflecting ambivalence about technologically-induced changes in society, as
colored by archeological understanding of the Ancients, etc., etc.?

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang Page:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/index.html

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:25:34 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: THUDDD 7 - Results on Web

>Some suggestions for future THUDDDS:

I know that the roleplaying rationale for THUDD is Milleu-0, but it would
still be interesting to see some higher-tech designs - perhaps a 
"Concept 100" design for a TL-13 warship?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:29:52 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Detection tasks

>Rather than vary the task difficulty, have the randomness tell the referee
>how long it would take to notice whatever the players are looking for?  The
>more patient they are, the more they will see.  Greater range and camoflage
>would increase required time, better equipment and skill would lower it.

It's an interesting idea. One problem with it is that there isn't a 
good mechanism for varying degrees of success in the current skill system
(aside from "spectacular success", which in the last T4 version I saw was
independent of the skill level of the operator...); if you just use task
rolls all you can have is something like 
spectacular success = integration time reduced by 1/2
success=normal integration time
failure=double integration time

which is again sort of coarse. Still, it's not a bad idea (functionally
very similar to what Anders likes, with skill roll modifying sensor
sensitivity...)

>For time-critical situations (eg. starship combat), we could still have a
>task roll to notice something _within a turn_.

I think I'd like to leave the starship-detecting part mostly unchanged...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:50:48 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Detection tasks

>Just one question on the [planet] detection task. What should one role against?
>The obvious quess is to use the sensor-skill, but that dosn't really
>sound right. Maybe a joined astrogation/astronomy and sensor-task.
>Has anybody any thoughts on this? 

Good question. I was certainly visualizing sensor skill, but as you say,
maybe astrogation or science/astronomy are more relevant. Is there an official
T4 or T4.1 mechanism for tasks using different skills together?

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 10:01:01 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  using sensors for survey or science

>Isn't there some error here?
>Each +0.5 equals x10 surface area or signature decreases as range squared
>and thus the table should be like this:

>Sensitivity   Range
>===================
>13            2
>14            20

Nope. It's a (sensor diameter)^4 task - sensitivity goes up as collecting
area (obviously) but also as the resolution, because the higher your 
resolution the less background light is "mixed in" with the (faint) 
planetary target. (There are additional factors because a bigger sensor 
collects more background light too, but also because the scattered light from
the primary star is less scattered with a bigger sensor, and because the
farther away the star is the closer the planet is projected to the star
and hence the worst the scattered light is. It's fairly complicated and 
should really be a different max range scaling with area for inner/habitable/
outer planets, and depends on the layout of the sensor, etc. I cheated and
just took a simulation our group did for ground-based detection of outer
gas giants with the Keck, back-of-the-envelope removed the atmosphere, 
and settled on D^4 as a rough approximation to the real scaling.)
(For the earth-sized detections I also cheated, and just took the 
baseline NASA "Terrestrial Planet Finder" spacecraft and matched it to the
closest Traveller sensor.)

>BTW Couldn't we just calculate this based on surface area of a typical
>gasgiant with illumination from Luminosity = 1 star at say 5 AU, then
>adding a modifier for integration time?

The sensitivity is sharply limited by scattered light from the primary star
(even for short ranges and big sensors and 20 AU gas giants), so you can't just
use the "free space" sensor rules.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:21:16 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 7 Results!

Congratulations to the designers!  I love reading these things.

>Subject: THUDDD 7 Results!

>I am very please to announce the winner of the IN-50 Heavy
>Fighter prototype development contract...
>
>The MF357 Drachen Jaeger Class Heavy Fighter, submitted by Zusa and
>Associates!
>
- -- Snip --
>
>Here are the results for THUDDD 7.  As you can see, the Drachen Jaeger
>swept every category but 'Unusualness', which was won by new THUDDD
>entrant Rob Day's intriguing meson fighter, the Tsiko.  By the way, in
>addition to placing second in 'Unusualness', Andy Akins deserves 
special
>recognition for having provided the FFS2 spreadsheet used to generate 
all
>but one of the THUDDD 7 entries.  Thanks, Andy!

- -- Snip --
>
>Overall Design:
>  2.50 - MF357 Drachen Jaeger Class Heavy Fighter (Brian Songy)
>  3.20 - XTF-4 Delta Fighter (Bill Prankard)
>  3.36 - X-1108 FireFly class Prototype Fighter (Danny Moody)
>
>Usability in a Game:
>  2.60 - MF357 Drachen Jaeger Class Heavy Fighter (Brian Songy)
>  2.91 - X-1108 FireFly class Prototype Fighter (Danny Moody)
>  3.00 - Gentle Breeze class Heavy Fighter (Martin F. C. Pickett)
>
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------
>   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
> --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
>   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
>       "Every man and every woman is a star."
>

Is there any effort on the part of the THUDD group to have follow up 
posting of any deckplans for the submitted designs, especially the 
winners?  

We have some very skilled deckplan designers (I'd love to learn how they 
do it, hint, hint).  Do you think that perhaps they could be enticed to 
submit some deckplans....?

S/f
Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:14:11 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: re: Detection tasks

>> From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
>   
>   [snippage --- my criticism of Bruce's suggestion]
>   
>   I guess my point came out as sounding snooty.  Astronomers certainly
>   do the vast majority of all telescopic work in science --- I didn't
>   mean to imply otherwise.  I merely wanted to point out that I've had
>   some real experience with this issue (as have you, obviously).
>   
>> Dr. Bruce Macintosh (PhD, astronomy, UCLA, 1994)
>   
>   I apologize for assuming (without reason) you were a layman
>   enthusiast.  Looking at the archives, I can plainly see that I would
>   have known better if I hadn't just started reading this thread
>   recently.  (Still, I should have guessed from your email address
>   alone. )^8
>   
>   -Rob

I appreciate Rob's comments here, and his attitude.  Many of us ARE 
laymen, though, and I for one appreciate the insight of those who do 
this stuff [various subject matters] for a living.  One of the things 
that amazes me is the diversity of the group on this list.  

I've been out of traveller for almost 15 years, having only played CT 
for a couple of years.

During that time, I've been in the Marine Corps, (floated with an 
infantry landing team, done airborne training/platoon time, worked 
maintenance, been the Logistics officer for battalions and brigades), 
but missed going Desert Storm (Drat the luck!), and been a security 
officer (all the classified top secret stuff) for about 5 years.

I am learning all the time, and am intrigued by the learned and 
experienced people playing traveller.  I'd appreciate (and maybe some 
others would too) a little background information on people.  Not a huge 
bragging opportunity, but just a few words about your areas of 
expertise....  

We have some real experts in our midst!

S/f
Greg

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:18:42 +0000
From: Rob Day <rob@glisten.demon.co.uk>
Subject: THUDDD 7/8

Hi,

THUDDD7 : Well, I expected to come last, and I think I pretty did so.
Still, coming top of the 'Unusual' category was something (not quite
sure what, though). :) If only we were allowed to enter more than one
design then I could have done something sensible.

Craig Berry wrote:
>
>Speaking of THUDDD 8, our tentative schedule for future THUDDDs shows us
>doing a Subsidized Merchant next.  Is that OK with everyone, or is there
>strong preference for something else? 

I'm happy with the sub. merchant idea (What? No overpowered monsters for
the MunchKin company to design? :( ). So, time for another Munchausen
Indeustries subsidary, what about Munchausen Industries Space Equipment
ans Resources (MISER)? Sounds about right for a sub. merchant!

Regards,
- -- 
Rob Day
rob@glisten.demon.co.uk

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:21:31 +0000
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: TML C&W song...

At 07:01 AM 11/24/97 -0600, you wrote:
>
	<Large, probably overagressive snip>
>
>* The SpacePort Bar(tm): an enormous chain of franchised drinking
>establishments with identical decor and wares, found across the Imperium.
>There is one in every Imperial starport rated above E.  Due to obscure
>Solomani heraldic influences, the chain's logo is a stylized, curvilinear,
>yellow-coloured capital letter "M".
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
>
	I liked the song. It confirms my suspicion that true culture
	exists only in insanity.

	This business with the "M" is REALLY sick, however.


Tim Connors

Why is it that the day you'ld sell your soul to get something,
	souls are a glut on the market?

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 12:06:25 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Compiled Sector Data Available

I posted the new spreadsheets last night, including the Gvurrdon sector.  I
currently have data on the following sectors: Alpha Crucis, Antares, Core,
Corridor,
Dagudashaag, Daibei, Dark Nebula, Delphi, Deneb, Diaspora, Ealiyasiyw, Empty
Quarter, Fornast, Glimmerdrift, Gushemege, Gvurrdon, Hinterworld, Hlakhoi,
Ilelish, Iwahfuah, Ley, Lishun, Magyar, Massilia, Mendan, Old Expanses, Reavers
Deep, Reft, Riftspan, Solomani Rim, Spica, Spinward Marches, Staihaia, Trojan
Reach, Verge, Vland, and Zarushagar.

I would be interested in getting any data on any sectors I do not have listed,
as well as any additional data (SubSector names, Planet names, corrections,
etc..) for the sector data I have posted already.  :)  The data is (assumed to
be) correct for @1116.

Note - the database has not been updated, I am waiting on some more sector
information (which I hope to get by the end of the Thanksgiving weekend) and
then I will recompile it.  So if you have the old Access database file, it's
still the most recent version posted!

Finally, for those US subscribers - Happy Thanksgiving!  For the non-US
subscribers: be patient with us!  :)

douglas

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 16:05:58 -0500 (EST)
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: Re:  Star Diameters

>Date: 25 Nov 1997 09:54 EST

>From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>

>Subject: Star Diameters

>

>Gentle Travellers,

>

>Is there a formula we use to find the 100-diameter limit of a star?

>For instance,

>

>	d(G2V) = ?

>	d(F7V) = ?

>	d(M8D) = ?

>   d(M6V) = ?

>

>

>1. What is the simple formula?


  The simple formula is to find the local sun's radius in Stellar Radii
(Earth's sun == 1) and use that number of A.U. as the 100-diameter
boundary.  A table of basic Stellar Radii can be found in the Classic
Traveller Book 6: Scouts. I've repeated it here (view in a monospace
font):


             Stellar Radii (Sol == 1)

Spectral					Size											
Class  Ia     Ib     II    III     IV      V     VI      D	
B0     52     30     22     16     13     10      -       .018
B5     75     35     20     10      5.3    4.4    -
A0    135     50     18      6.2    4.5    3.2    -       .017
A5    149     55     14      4.6    2.7    1.8    -
F0    174     59     16      4.7    2.7    1.7    -       .013
F5    204     60     18      5.2    2.6    1.4    1.14
G0    298     84     25      7.1    2.5    1.03   1.02    .012
G5    454    128     37     11      2.8     .91    .55
K0    654    216     54     16      3.3     .908   .40    .009
K5   1010    392    124     42      -       .566   .308
M0   1467    857    237     63      -       .549   .256   .006
M5   3020   2073    712    228      -       .358   .104
M9   3499   2876    913    360      -       .201   .053

  (following the recent discussions here, I would normally put a
copyright notice here for the table. However, I suspect that the
data could be found in a decent Astrophysics text...)

  Parts of this table are likely to drive certain astronomers on
this list nuts :)
  Type VI stars were dropped from Traveller's sector data and
generation tables when several people mentioned loudly that such
stars are vanishingly rare in local galactic space.

  While not exact, the conversion of Stellar Radii to Safe Jump
Distance in AU is close enough, and gives a low math solution to
the "problem". It also gives, in easy tabular form, a feel for
just how deep the no-jump wells can be for the big stars. By way
of example, Pluto averages in Traveller terms a distance of
some 38 AU out (39.5 AU average in real life)...


>
>2. What is the complex formula?

>


  Check the TML archive for the past two or three weeks. Buried in all of
his carryings-on, Leroy Guatney posted a longish bit on calculating the
100-diameter boundary of a star based on diameter and density of the
star. If you happen to be a collecter of old Traveller material, much
of the same article appeared in one of the last JTAS' before GDW switched
to the name Challenge.

  That help?


GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:59:13 +0100
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive

Here's mine:

<mailto:mark@dk-online.dk>                  Mark Seemann
<http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann/traveller.htm>    Mark
Seemann's Traveller page
<http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann/library/index.htm>     Library
Data
<http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann/worlds.htm>      Canonical
World List
<http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann/corsair.htm>      Deckplan of
the Nishemani Class Corsair

Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:12:48 -0600 Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> For the Master Keyword, I suggest: TravellerRPG
> (one word, for uniqueness)

Seconded and implemented!

> To start the ball rolling, other keywords could be: Character, Design,
> Deckplans, Technical, Timeline, Filk, Contact, Amber Zone, Casual
> Encounter, Sector, Starship, Vehicle, Spreadsheet, Mac Software, PC
> Software, Worlds, Adventure, Errata, Aliens, plus all those other
> acronyms we toss around here FFS, MMT, T4, CT, MT, TNE, RCES . . .

Let's not forget the real names behind the acronyms: MegaTraveller, Marc
Miller's Traveller, etc. Someone 'unknowledgeable' might want to search for
these words, too...

Also, keywords should contain the longest reasonable string representation
of the word (probably pluralis): Characters, Sectors, Starships, etc. That
way, both a search for i.e. 'sector' and 'sectors' would return the
appropriate page, whereas if the keyword was 'sector' only a search for
'sector' would return true.

What about cases? I'm not sure how case-sensitive search engines are, but
just to be sure, I've written most of my keywords in all lower-case.

If we could get such a standard working, it could prove a very valuable
tool!

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:25:34 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Vilani Society, a commentary

>     As my research of the past few days into the sum total of available
>information on the Vilani for the TravLang lists development of their culture
>and history has passed I've come to develop something of a dislike for them.
>They're arrogant, silently superior and more importantly so consumed with the
>conservation of barely workable traditions and customs they'd shoot the
>solution a problem and then, as per tradition, pound it into a greasy puddle
>of goo on the ground and then immolate that for good measure!

They would fit *right* in on this mailing list.

(Interesting question - what race would different TML posters be identified
with? It's pretty easy to spot the crazed Solomani supremacist, and the 
various Vargr...and the tradtionalist Vilani...I'm probably an
obsessed-with-my-own-project and generally-in-favour-of-rearranging-everyting
Hiver.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 13:47:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive

> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:12:48 -0600
> From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>

Per Robert Eaglestone's request, I've submitted the THUDDD site data.  I
sent it directly to him, but I see others doing it on-list.  What's the
proper way, Robert?

> Two recommendations:
> 
> (1) Add the link type (mailto, http, ftp, etc.)

Yes, definitely.

> (2) Enclose links in angle brackets <foo> 
>     This is a common convention, and some software makes links enclosed
> in these brackets "hot". Also, it aids in parsing and extracting links
> from the text automatically.

Yes on this too...all us Perl hackers will thank you. :)

> A third comment, about Metacontent and webpages:
> 
> We might want to consider compiling a list of common keywords, plus one
> master keyword that could be "unique". There's lots of Traveller sites
> out there that have nothing to do with the game. Y'know, "World
> Travellers! Free Air Miles! Order Now!" Let's cut some deadwood from our
> web searches.
[snip]

Great idea!  I've already updated the main THUDDD page to have
'TravellerRPG' and 'Starships' in its 'keywords' meta, and I encourage all
other Trav web folk to do the same. 

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 14:11:57 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: THUDDD 8 planning

> Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 17:28:36 -0800
> From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
> 
> Some suggestions for future THUDDDS:
> 
> Luxury Liner, ala The King Richard of FASA fame

This will probably come up next spring or summer.

> Very low tech in-system hauler.

Interesting...I'm just worried there'd be little room for design
differentiation.  Big engines, cargo pods, minimal crew section...what
would allow one ship to stand out relative to another?

> Survey scout.

That was already on my mind for THUDDD 10, next May.

> We might also consider placing budget limits and stricter performance
> requirements..  so far, there has been an element of free spending which
> leads to many designs showing a "gold-plated" aspect that only a Pentagon
> procurement officer could love.

Well, in the case of Imperial warships, I think this is justified -- the
Imperium *does* have deep pockets, and the IN is in part a mobile showcase
for Imperial technology.  However, on other THUDDD contests (the free
trader, the low-tech SDB) price has been a definite limitation.  So also
will it be with the Subsidized Merchant we'll be doing next.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:54:10 -1000
From: Harry <paharris@postoffice.newnham.utas.edu.au>
Subject: Goodbye and Best wishes

Well, It's coming to the end of the semester and I am about to lose my free
email account. So the time has come for me to unsubscribe from all the
Traveller lists that I am on..... (sob)

I'm hoping to be able to subscribe again sometime in the new year.

I would like to wish Everyone a Merry Christmas and you all the best for
the New Year. 


Harry

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:15:42 +1100
From: Jason Anderson <midnight@kagi.com>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 7 - Results on Web

>I know that the roleplaying rationale for THUDD is Milleu-0, but it would
>still be interesting to see some higher-tech designs - perhaps a
>"Concept 100" design for a TL-13 warship?

As someone who is planning on running a TL-13 Milleu-600 (Emperors of the
Flag) campaign next year, I would definitely be in that.

Cheers,
Jason

- -------
Beyond Midnight Software                               <midnight@kagi.com>
                                      <http://www.vision.net.au/~midnight>

             If it's not on fire then it's a software problem.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 15:26:45 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: A modest CSC proposal

Just got a chance to try CSC out.  It is just AMAZING.

Congratulations!

BTW, ISTR you were using a 68k machine.  Do you have need of a program to
generate postscript sectors/subsector maps?  I mentioned this a while ago,
but I could not coerce a 68k version of my program out of CW until the
latest release graced my desk.

Be warned, the docs are so scanty as to be nonexistent, which is something
I hope to fix this weekend.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 1997 01:03:46 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: womon-identified womyn?

Could someone please translate "womon-identified womyn" into English?

Thanks.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:10:14 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Subject: We have Fusion?

http://www.eurekalert.org/releases/altfusion-powerfutr.html

To quote the important bit:
	"Rostoker, Monkhorst and Binderbauer instead propose a colliding
	beam fusion reactor that would be fueled by protons and boron..."

[techhead explanation]
Remember the aneutronic B11-p fusion reaction everyone goes "oooo" over
but needs 100x the ignition temp*pressure figure of merit that the other
fusion reactions do?  Well, if you use colliding beams from particle
acellerators, you can easily push past that energy barrier (plenty of
effective KE in a beam...).  Using pulsed beams and reverse
synchrotrons (if I'm reading it right) operating in the beam off-phase
to capture the charged particles coming off the fusion reactions and
directly convert their energy to electrical power.  

Can also be used as a low thrust fusion rocket, if you pull the
power generator off one end of the reaction chamber...

Not quite traveller's fusion, but it looks like TL9 fusion may be
possible after all ;-)


- -george william herbert
Retro Aerospace
gherbert@crl.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2129
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Traveller-digest    Thursday, November 27 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2130



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Unix Traveller Programs
Re: womon-identified womyn?
re: Detection tasks
re: Vilani Society, a commentary
Re: Free traders & econ 101
Re: womon-identified womyn?
Trouble In Toyland
Re: Vilani Society, a commentar
Auction updated: Traveller/MT items
Re: womon-identified womyn?
Future THUDDD proposals
Re: THUDDD 7 Results!
Re: womon-identified womyn?
Re: Vilani Society, a commentary
Re: Starports in MIlieu o (was Re: Sector Data Revisions)
Re: womon-identified womyn?
Re: L.A.B.R.Y.S.?
Re: womon-identified womyn?
Races of the TML
Re: Goodbye and Best wishes
Thruster Plate and the Mass function (was Jumppoints ...)
THUDD Merchant
Re: Thruster Plate and the Mass function (was Jumppoints ...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 18:36:38 -0800
From: "Zane H. Healy" <healyzh@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Unix Traveller Programs

>My recent work is all in Java and, of course, works on UNIX. I've tried it
>all on Solaris with no problems. Is there a Java 1.1.4 engine for Linux?

I know that the latest Linux Kernals have support for running Java apps.
Apparently it's able to run them as if they were native applications.  I'm
really not up on anything dealing with Java, as I tend to avoid it.
Although for this kind of stuff it can definitly be a good thing.

				Zane


| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Adminstrator  |
| healyzh@ix.netcom.com (primary)  | Linux Enthusiast           |
| healyzh@holonet.net (alternate)  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
| For Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/                       |
| For the collecting of Classic Computers with info on them.    |
| see http://www.dragonfire.net/~healyzh/museum.html            |

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 12:18:37 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: womon-identified womyn?

At 01:03 27/11/97 GMT, you wrote:
>Could someone please translate "womon-identified womyn" into English?
>
>Thanks.
>
Could you quote this in context.  Sounds like current embittered femminist
jargon.
Colin

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:10:20 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Detection tasks

At 09:06 am 11/25/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Hmm - informally, how many people would prefer a table that
tells you
>how long you have to look in a given situation, with no real
task rolls
>involved, to the approach I previously posted.

	I guess I'll have to be contrary again, and ask for neither! I
_like_ the idea of task rolls. But I hate arbitrary,
"unrealistic" rules like "you can only try once."  What I'd
really like is something that mixes both ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:22:58 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: re: Vilani Society, a commentary

At 01:25 pm 11/26/97 -0800, you wrote:
>(Interesting question - what race would different TML posters be
identified
>with? It's pretty easy to spot the crazed Solomani supremacist,
and the 
>various Vargr...and the tradtionalist Vilani...I'm probably an
>obsessed-with-my-own-project and
generally-in-favour-of-rearranging-everyting
>Hiver.)

	No fair identifying yourself--I think people should try to come
up with what race they'd expect OTHERS to be, based on their
postings ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:01:27 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Free traders & econ 101

At 07:17 pm 11/24/97 -0600, you wrote:
>OK,
> I've fought with the various (excellent) spreadsheets long
enough. Is
>there any way to put a ******* free/far trader in the black
using SSDS
>_or_ FFS2 rules???? Catch- NO effing subsidy... The classic
canonical A2
>would not be built in the universe of T4. Period. (Of course,
I'm an old

	If I recall correctly, it wouldn't be built in ANY Traveller
universe, from an economical standpoint. Certainly not doing
straight freight runs. Speculative trading has always been the
only way to make small vessels work ... which I'm will to bet was
quite intentional on Marc's part. Hauling freight for Cr1,000 per
ton from point A to point B is quite boring. On the other hand,
trying to find something you can buy cheap and sell high, plus
maybe a few odd jobs, or something just the other side of where a
narrow-minded bureaucrat would draw the legal line, or ...
Plenty of room for Science Fiction Adventure In The Far Future
(to steal a phrase ...).
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 21:34:06 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: womon-identified womyn?

At 01:03 am 11/27/97 GMT, you wrote:
>Could someone please translate "womon-identified womyn" into
English?

	Certainly. They're human beings of the gender without protruding
primary sexual characteristics, who object to the white
protestant patriarchal slaveholding repressive unnatural society,
and the domination of language implicit in referring to them as
"woMEN" as the inclusion of three letters designating the evil
sex clearly declares to the world their inferior status, and
hence have chosen to liberate themselves from the aforementioned
WPPShRUS by freeing their designation from that slave collar. The
proper singular noun to refer to a human being of the gender
without PPSC is womon, and the plural is womyn.

	Is that clear enough english? <G>
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:03:05 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Trouble In Toyland

This just in from rec.games.frp.misc...

From: dperrin@mag7.com (Don Perrin)
Newsgroups: rec.games.frp.misc
Subject: Re: Every wanted to help run a game company?
Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 19:21:24 -0600
Organization: The Barn
Lines: 21
Message-ID: <dperrin-2611971921250001@ip-205-254-198-117.pensys.com>
References: <34730af4.11545784@news.wenet.net> 
<19971121102301.FAA28181@ladder01.news.aol.com> 
<archangel-2211971232090001@usr-ppp-40.elknet.net>
<34777ec1.4748156@news.wenet.net>
NNTP-Posting-Host: ip-205-254-198-117.pensys.com
Path:
news.siscom.net!news-xfer.siscom.net!news-spur1.maxwell.syr.edu!news.maxwell.syr.edu!newsfeeds.sol.net!homer.alpha.net!ip-205-254-198-117.pensys.com!user


>In article <34777ec1.4748156@news.wenet.net>, dberry@nospam.hooked.net wrote:
>
>> Ken, I'm one of the people who defended you to the hilt at the
>> beginning.  I've written for Traveller, and what did I get?  
>> 
>> Starships.
>
>Oh blow me! Imperium Games has *never* paid me for writing Starships or a
>short story for JTAS. They owe me in excess of $5,000. It's the new
>administration of Imperium that is doing this to me, not Ken. In fact, I
>had a hope of getting paid when Ken was President. They are in violation
>of two contracts, and I'm in the process of taking them to court. I've
>written for Traveller, and what did *I* get? 
>
>Don Perrin
>
>
>================================================================
> Don Perrin              Visit our Web Site: http://www.mag7.com
> Archangel Entertainment, Authority Publishing, Freelance Writer
>================================================================

   Now the question becomes, does he *deserve* payment after laying the
eggs he laid?  The answer in the end is 'yes'.  It is not the
responsibility of Mr. Perrin to publish worthwhile material, it is the
responsibility of Imperium Games.  I don't blame him a bit for being
bitter.  If someone promised you US$5,000 and wouldn't pay up, you'd be
pissed too.  The paying (or refusal to pay despite contracts) of
professional freelancers has been one of my soapbox issues for a while
now, and this appears to be another case where a freelancer is getting
ripped off.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 20:43:45 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Vilani Society, a commentar

In mail you write:

>      Still, I'm at a loss to explain the survival of such legends through
> 290,000+ years of oral transmission.  Heck even a century or two can distort
> a known and recorded in writting incident beyond all recognition when passed
> down that way.  Either V&V is wrong... or we've got some Very Interesting
> explainations in store for us. ;)

Actually, it turns out that in cultures that rely on oral history,
incidents *do* get passed on pretty faithfully. They did some research
in the Pacific and found that the tribal tales of volcanic eruptions
and the like could be confirmed for at least 300 years back. 

It's when writing comes in that folks start getting careless with the
details.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:27:16 -0500
From: Craig Janssen <daili@remove.me.gate.net>
Subject: Auction updated: Traveller/MT items

Hello, 

I have the WWW page updated. I have posted updates to various .marketplace
newsgroups.

A Q&A page was added.

The url is:

http://www.gate.net/~daili/auction.htm


Craig Janssen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:32:51 +0800
From: Colin Hutchinson <chutchin@cyllene.uwa.edu.au>
Subject: Re: womon-identified womyn?

At 21:34 26/11/97 -0700, you wrote:
>At 01:03 am 11/27/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>Could someone please translate "womon-identified womyn" into
>English?
>
>	Certainly. They're human beings of the gender without protruding
>primary sexual characteristics, who object to the white
>protestant patriarchal slaveholding repressive unnatural society,
>and the domination of language implicit in referring to them as
>"woMEN" as the inclusion of three letters designating the evil
>sex clearly declares to the world their inferior status, and
>hence have chosen to liberate themselves from the aforementioned
>WPPShRUS by freeing their designation from that slave collar. The
>proper singular noun to refer to a human being of the gender
>without PPSC is womon, and the plural is womyn.
>
Do not forget that a false etymolgy is assumed:  woe-man - man's woe or
curse.  Even in the name we oppress!
Colin

>	Is that clear enough english? <G>
>-- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
>--
>   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
>    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***
>
> "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
>  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
>establishes
>  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine
>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 22:59:02 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Future THUDDD proposals

> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 09:25:34 -0800
> From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
> 
> >Some suggestions for future THUDDDS:
> 
> I know that the roleplaying rationale for THUDD is Milleu-0, but it would
> still be interesting to see some higher-tech designs - perhaps a 
> "Concept 100" design for a TL-13 warship?

Interesting idea.  I know this is asked about once a week on the TML, but
I can't find the info -- when in canon history does the increase to TL-13
occur?  I'm picturing a small warship, circa 1000 dt, built late in M:0 as
a technology demonstrator for emerging TL-13 equipment...sort of the
Kinunir of its time.  Maybe we'll do this next late spring or summer.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 23:06:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD 7 Results!

> Date: Wed, 26 Nov 1997 11:21:16 PST
> From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
> 
> Is there any effort on the part of the THUDD group to have follow up 
> posting of any deckplans for the submitted designs, especially the 
> winners?  
> 
> We have some very skilled deckplan designers (I'd love to learn how they 
> do it, hint, hint).  Do you think that perhaps they could be enticed to 
> submit some deckplans....?

I think that's a great idea.  Some past THUDDD entries have already
included links to deckplans and exterior views hosted at other sites
(those of the authors).  Owing to space constraints, I can't host graphics
at the THUDDD site, but I'd be more than happy to install links to any
central deckplan sites others might want to create (and also will continue
to support in-entry links to deckplans, as mentioned above).

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:11:30 -0500 (CDT)
From: "Victor J. Raymond" <RAYMOND@macalester.edu>
Subject: Re: womon-identified womyn?

 
"womon-identified womyn" probably refers to a woman who is (a) placing a high priority on distancing herself from the male gender, (b) more interested in associating with other women, and (c) quite possibly a lesbian separatist.
 
Seriously.  
 
<shrug>  There is a strong dialogue within the women's movement, and particularly among lesbian women, about the relationship between language and identity politics.  And trying to simplify it down to a phrase can make it seem either inaccessable or just silly (either of which would be inaccurate, but, hey....).
 
If you want to discuss this further, feel free to email me directly.
 
Victor Raymond
(just this bi-guy with lots of lesbian friends)
 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 01:21:48 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Vilani Society, a commentary

Stephen Johnson wrote:

>     Still, I'm at a loss to explain the survival of such legends through
>290,000+ years of oral transmission.  Heck even a century or two can distort
>a known and recorded in writting incident beyond all recognition when passed
>down that way.  Either V&V is wrong... or we've got some Very Interesting
>explainations in store for us. ;)

I don't know about 290,000 years, but 20,000 is very possible.  I had an
archeology professor who did work in Pakistan.  He dug up these oddly
patterned triangular stones from early Neolithic settlements (~ 20 K BP). 
They were always set up in the center of the settlements, on a special
altar. 

However, he knew nothing of what the stones were used for.  Then, one day
while he was excavating the pieces of one of these stones one of the
locals walked up, pointed his rifle at my professor and demanded to know
why he had broken one of the sacred stones.  My professor explained that
this stone was thousands of years old, the local became very excited and
rushed back to show my prof the stone they had in the center of their
village, on the same type of altar.  20,000 years, same stones, set up in
the same way.  290,000 may be a bit long, but maybe not... 

Happy Thanksgiving all-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com  

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:15:13 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Starports in MIlieu o (was Re: Sector Data Revisions)

Varios persons on the list have suggested that the Milieo 0 starport
data includes too many high quality starports.

I disagree.  I think that what we are missing in starport data
information is data on the size and volume of the starports.

Lets take the example of Vland.  Vilani and Vargr says (pg 21) "Vland,
our homeworld, plumeted from a high of TL 12 around -1800 all the way to
the brink of low TL 9 by about -1550.  Jump capable ships were seen as
needless waste, with little promise of profit.  Occasional interstellar
trade was done, but the total journeys leaving Vland numbered in the
dozens per year.  Only the most shrewd starship operators could scratch
out a living from offworld trade during those bleak times."

Notice that this data does not say that the starports were bombed during
the rebellion, the starports were destroyed by Virus, we destroyed the
starports because they reminded us of the bad things out there, etc or
any of the things that happened in The New Era.  All it says is that
there was not much _money_ in it.

Somewhere on Vland someone was making some money building, repairing,
and catering to starships the whole time.  All that is needed for an A
starport is for these people, and their niche business to be located at
or near a good airport.  I think that in Milieu 0 the number of A ports
reflects this reality.  Remember that in Vilani society it was
traditional for learning to be by apprenticeship so this business could
continue to have an adequate supply of adequately trained (although I am
reluctant to use that word for Vilani) workers.

Citizens of the Imperium 1100 years later might be startled by how small
and low in traffict the starports of Millieu 0 were but they would not
be startled to see them or expect different ammenities.  Surprised that
Vland was generating only the volume of trafic that in Milieu 1100 would
be typical of a D port on a poor planet jump 4 from anything perhaps,
but that would not be reflected in the starport type.  I thnk that in
Milieu 0 most planets should have at least a D port, as someone pointed
out the ancient Egyptians (low TL 1) could almost have managed a D port.

Cleon is just trying to make the spacelanes safe enough for trafic that
high volume, routine, traffic, in non luxury goods can return.  (So he
can tax it & rule it ....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:50:12 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: womon-identified womyn?

>Date: 27 Nov 1997 01:03:46 GMT
>From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
>Subject: womon-identified womyn?
>
>Could someone please translate "womon-identified womyn" into English?
>
>Thanks.

Lesbian and bisexual womem.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 00:22:35 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: L.A.B.R.Y.S.?

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net> wrote

> > >'m afraid.  I'm very afraid.  That acronym has just got to be
> > >attached to something so totally warped...

> >Actually... not really.  A "labrys" is a double-bladed axehead
> >literature.  Nowadays it's been "reclaimed" and is a pretty popular
> >jewelry/T-shirt/tattoo/whatever design among womon-identified womyn.

I have seen this written, with no apparent irony, as wymn identified
wymn by seperatists who seem to believe that vowels are a patriarchal
relic....
 
>Yeah.  This I was aware of.  That, in the light of SAYBOOM's recent
> PMPP effort, had me reaching for the ol' superdense athletic supporter-14

Not being a sports fan I have always thought that all athletic
supporters (of whatever TL) were superdense. :) but don't you sometimes
refer to yourselves as fans ?

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 04:47:05 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: womon-identified womyn?

At 01:03 AM 11/27/97 GMT, you wrote:
>Could someone please translate "womon-identified womyn" into English?

Dyke.

Aggesively overley-political dyke.

The kind Doug and I are sick of dealing with.  They keep telling me that
I'm not bisexual, but really gay and "submitting to the patriarchal
paradigm."
- --
Kirsten M. Berry, Techno-Dyke at Large               kirib@hooked.net
http://www.hooked.net/~kirib/         Home of the Samurai Webmistress
- -=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-=+=-
  "I like the feeling of getting angry at stupid things.  Like sex,
   it lets me know that I am indeed still alive."
                                              -Sarah J. Groenewegen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 09:01:38 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Races of the TML

How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
wise)
Me:
Solomani 50%
Vargr 35%
Sword Worlder 15%

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:20:41 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: Goodbye and Best wishes

Harry wrote:

> Well, It's coming to the end of the semester and I am about to lose my free
> email account. So the time has come for me to unsubscribe from all the
> Traveller lists that I am on..... (sob)

Harry,

If it is the free e-mail that you need, you can try Hotmail or Excite's free
e-mail service (of course, you need ISP service to use them, so maybe this is
what you mean).

Just trying to help.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 10:07:31 -0700
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Thruster Plate and the Mass function (was Jumppoints ...)

A special note to Dom: sorry, but I found it irresistable to not
cross-post this reply.

On Wed Nov 12 08:18:52 1997
starwolf@online.no (StarWolf) wrote:
Subject: Re: hiwg - Jumppoints (JTAS 22) revisited
>
>On Sun, 9 Nov 1997 12:29:15 -0700, lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy
>William Lu Guatney) wrote:
>
>[a lot of interesting stuff about jump point]
>
>Leroy,
>Thos was interesting. What about the 1000 diameter limit of Thruster
>drives according to T4? Shouldn't that me controlled by the mass of
>the planet? And do you have any good explanation on how we are to
>calculate that?


Roger, note that my Jump-0 point (JTAS#22) was a 1000 diameter point,
which my note makes a mass-related calculation possible.  As we have
now found, the Thruster drives are a 2000 A.U. calculation for a Sol-
like star (FFS2 pg. 65).  Note that the Sun's 1000 diameter point
turns out to be at roughly 9.3 A.U. << 2000.0 A.U.  You are right, and
not just planets should effect the T-plate function, any significant
mass should.

Now that I have finally found this reference (I have been looking for
quite awhile since J.P. told me about, and then you followed up with
the same), I can say that the FF&S2 material gives us very little
material to go on, but try this on for size.

On page 65, FF&S2 says:

          One of the many effects of the TL11 mastery of
          is the invention of the reactionless thrusters,
          also known as thruster plates.  Where "contra-
          gravity" at earlier tech levels can only interact
          with the local gravitational field (and is hence
          limited to working near a planetary surface),
       1  thruster plates actually use the curvature of
          space in a different manner, basically by "grabbing"
          on to it.  However, thruster plates have a limitation
          as well.  Rather than degrading slowly with local
          gravity, like contragravity, thruster plates work
          normally until the curvature reaches a threashold.
          Below that threshold, quantum-gravitic effects
       2  drastically cut the effectiveness, by a factor of
          a hundred or more.  That cutoff level turns out to
       3  be around 2,000 AU for a normal, Sol-like star.
          Thus, thruster-plate equipped ships can't maneuver
          effectively in deep space although they can still
          hold position and make minor course changes.  Ships
          intended to routinely work out beyond the cutoff are
          generally designed with some form of auxiliary
          propulsion that isn't similarly affected (fusion
          rockets or HEPlaR are the most popular).

I can conclude from (1) above that thruster plates do not act in the 1/R^2
(Inverse Square Law) fashion of normal gravity, and that its function is
somewhat less than exponential (this is like saying that it is more than
$0.10 and less than the United States' national debt ~$5x10^12).  Then,
from (2) we know that this function drops off drastically at a given
distance, so beyond that the drive is worthless.  We are only given one
data point for one mass value.

We can solve "n" equations with "n" unknowns, for 0 < n < ?, but here we
don't even have the equation.

If we assumed that the equation was linear, then the 2 billion solar mass
black hole at the center of the Milky Way would have an effective thruster
plate radius given by (2x10^9 SMU x 2000 AU x 499.005 ls/AU x 60 s/m x 60 m/h
x 24 h/d x 365 d/y) = 63,293,379 light years, or a fifth of the way to the
heart of the Coma-Virgo cluster--over intergalactic distances--which the
Local Group (where we are in the Milky Way) lies on the outskirts of.

If we assumed that it fell off (until the cutoff) like square root of
the mass, then the black hole in our galaxy would only effect out to ~1415
light years radius, leaving room for stars to have their own thruster
plate fields of effect.

Even better, assuming that the same "quantum-gravitic" effect was what
causes my Jump-0 point to dropoff at the cube root of the mass,
times a constant, the super-black-hole in the Milky Way's center would
allow thruster plate operation out to just under 40 light years.

The difference in constants could be explained by the values of those
constants in hyperspace vs. normal space.

So, for the thruster plate effectivness function, make a two piece-wise
continuous function:

 TP = cube-root(SMU)*1997.11:  thruster-plates at 100%

      else:                    thruster-plates at 1% (out to infinity)


If anyone has knowledge of other T4 references related to this post, I
would appreciate hearing about it.  Please send it to hiwg list or my
e-mail directly (I am behind on TML digests, as usual).

Happy Thanksgiving,


Leroy


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: 27 Nov 1997 18:46:14 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: THUDD Merchant

How about giving us a route for this ship, and going for the best profit with
that route?

It would be easy to simulate expected freight and passenger loads, fuel,
salary and maintenance costs, and so forth.


Things like survivability and flexibility could still be decided by vote.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 15:06:45 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Thruster Plate and the Mass function (was Jumppoints ...)

Leroy William Lu Guatney wrote:

>

> starwolf@online.no (StarWolf) wrote:

> >Leroy,

> >Thos was interesting. What about the 1000 diameter limit of Thruster

> >drives according to T4? Shouldn't that me controlled by the mass of

> >the planet? And do you have any good explanation on how we are to

> >calculate that?



<snippage>

> turns out to be at roughly 9.3 A.U. << 2000.0 A.U.  You are right, and

> not just planets should effect [sic] the T-plate function, any significant

> mass should.

<snippage>


On page 65, FF&S2 says:

<snippage>

>           on to it.  However, thruster plates have a limitation
>           as well.  Rather than degrading slowly with local
>           gravity, like contragravity, thruster plates work
>           normally until the curvature reaches a threashold.

                               ^^^^^^^^^

                    this will be important. see below.



>           Below that threshold, quantum-gravitic effects
>        2  drastically cut the effectiveness, by a factor of
>           a hundred or more.  That cutoff level turns out to
>        3  be around 2,000 AU for a normal, Sol-like star.

<snippage>



> I can conclude from (1) above that thruster plates do not act in the 1/R^2
> (Inverse Square Law) fashion of normal gravity, and that its function is
> somewhat less than exponential (this is like saying that it is more than
> $0.10 and less than the United States' national debt ~$5x10^12).  Then,
> from (2) we know that this function drops off drastically at a given
> distance, so beyond that the drive is worthless.  We are only given one
> data point for one mass value.



Since the efficiency of Thrust plates drops off drastically at a
particular distance, we can conclude that the efficiency is governed by
a "step-function". We don't need more datapoints than one: the point
where efficiency drops.



Efficiency is 100% up to a specific "steepness" of the gravitational
field, then drops to "less than 1%". In other words, T-plates aren't
efficient in "flat" space.



> We can solve "n" equations with "n" unknowns, for 0 < n < ?, but here we

> don't even have the equation.



That's because it's the same sort of rule as the jump distance rule. The
only equation needed is the one to calculate the "curvature" of space.
That will be the point where the efficiency drops to its 1% level.



<snip waste of BW> 



The curvature of space is akin to tidal forces, or the differential of
the force of gravity. Without going into the derevation, it is directly
proportional to the cube root of the density, since distance is
expressed in terms of the diameter of the gravity source.


So, for example, to calculate the 10 diameter limit, just use the
following equation:


distance (planetary dia.) = cuberoot(density rel. to Terra) * 10

Couldn't be easier!

The T-plate distance is expressed in AU, though. And we rarely know the
density of the Star in terms of Sol. But that's ok, since we *do*
usually know the mass and radius of the Star in terms of Sol.

Since density = Mass / Volume (proportional to r^3), we can substitute
this for the density. Since we express the distance in AU instead of
stellar Radii, r cancels out neatly!

If you want the T-Plate efficiency cutoff distance in AU, when given the
Mass of the Star in solar masses:

distance (AU) = 2000 * cuberoot(Mass)

Simple.


In short: Those looking for more detail can calculate a T-Plate cutoff
in exactly the same way as jump limits can be calculated.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2130
***********************************

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Traveller-digest     Friday, November 28 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2131



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Starports in MIlieu o (was Re: Sector Data Revisions)
List subscription, unsubscription etc.
Re: Races of the TML
Understanding the Milleu 0 data
B5 and Cyroberths (Spoiler Warning, possibly)
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Races of the TML
Re: womon-identified womyn?
Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Races of the TML
Re: A modest CSC proposal
Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive
Imperium map and sector reference
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data
Traveller Software - An idea
Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 16:20:01 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Starports in MIlieu o (was Re: Sector Data Revisions)

I do not disagree with the fact that low tech worlds can operate starports.
Nor do I disagree that a world, ONCE CONTACTED or RE-CONTACTED, would have,
at least minimal facilities. However, unless I miss the mark on just what
the Long Night was like (and this I admit, is very possible!) I don't feel
that the amount of interstellar contact and commerse during the 1700+ years
warrent the number of high level starports that are present in the data.

 A Tech level 2-3 world has, again in my opinion, far more pressing concerns
than to maintain a facility that would be classified by anyone as an A class
facility (and remember, this is a facility that, by the books, can not only
repair but construct star ships) on the off chance that some trader may come
along. Once commerce, even intermitant, is established, then the type of low
tech 'ports listed Leonard's post would be very appropriate. This being
upgraded to "modern" Imperial levels as the trade and usage warrents. Level
3-6

As I suggested in an earlier post, I believe that the starport, and,
possibly even the tech level data for M0 should be adjusted by proximity to
the "major" centers of resurgent civilization. Those nearer the worlds
engageing in intersteller trade and exploration, should have a higher
possibility of having a higher level starport, while those further from
these centers would would have fewer and lesser level facilities. Then a
sliding scale could be applied by data simulair to the % of Re-Contact as
listed in the M0 Campaign book.

Of course the biggest problem here is identifying the "Centers". Since
starting this discussion I've thought about trying to do this from current
materail, but time hasn't allowed me to get to it yet. Again M0 Campaign
book lists several "Pocket Empires" and larger stellar organizations. Others
that come to mind are the Darrens (I'm not sure of their status in Year 0),
the Sword Worlds, the Julian Protectorate, Zhodani, Vargr, Aslan, and theOld
Earth Union. Perhaps the mapping work that seems to be going on currently
will help in this area, even though it seems to be aimed at the Classic era.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
To: traveller@mpgn.com <traveller@mpgn.com>
Date: Thursday, November 27, 1997 6:11 AM
Subject: Re: Starports in MIlieu o (was Re: Sector Data Revisions)


>Varios persons on the list have suggested that the Milieo 0 starport
>data includes too many high quality starports.
>
>I disagree.  I think that what we are missing in starport data
>information is data on the size and volume of the starports.
>
>Lets take the example of Vland.  Vilani and Vargr says (pg 21) "Vland,
>our homeworld, plumeted from a high of TL 12 around -1800 all the way to
>the brink of low TL 9 by about -1550.  Jump capable ships were seen as
>needless waste, with little promise of profit.  Occasional interstellar
>trade was done, but the total journeys leaving Vland numbered in the
>dozens per year.  Only the most shrewd starship operators could scratch
>out a living from offworld trade during those bleak times."
>
>Notice that this data does not say that the starports were bombed during
>the rebellion, the starports were destroyed by Virus, we destroyed the
>starports because they reminded us of the bad things out there, etc or
>any of the things that happened in The New Era.  All it says is that
>there was not much _money_ in it.
<Snipped>

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 23:46:54 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: List subscription, unsubscription etc.

I forgot ...

How do I subscribe, unsubscribe, request list FAQ, search teh archive and
other important stuff?


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 14:24:57 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

At 09:01 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
>wise)
>Me:
>Solomani 50%
>Vargr 35%
>Sword Worlder 15%

Vargr.


- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 00:33:30 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Understanding the Milleu 0 data

While flipping through my brand new Milleu 0: Campaign I got confused.

The descriptions of the worlds include more data than the standard UWP. I
understand the UWP, the remarks and the "B" column (bases).

There is a column called PBG. I have understood what P is for (population),
but not B and G, and I cannot seem to find them (it's pretty late in the
evening here in Sweden, but ...).

The stellar data is also somewhat of a mystery to me. Ever star (more than
one in some systems) is described something like "G4 V". G is probably the
spectral class (meaning a yellow dwarf star, like the Sun), but I do not
understand the rest of it.

An explanation of this would be very helpful.

Another question: What is the population of the Third Imperium composed of?
There is demographics data for the nearby pocket empires, but not for the
Imperium itself (not that I can seem to find, anyway).


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 01:22:17 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: B5 and Cyroberths (Spoiler Warning, possibly)

Spoiler Warning.
Spoiler Warning.
Spoiler Warning.
Spoiler Warning.
Spoiler Warning.
Spoiler Warning.
Spoiler Warning.
Spoiler Warning.

Spoiler Warning.

Spoiler Warning.

Spoiler Warning.

Spoiler Warning.

Spoiler Warning.

I'll phrase this circumspectly so it doesn't ruin it for those that haven't
seen it yet.

Tonight, UK TV has shown a series 4 Babylon 5 episode in which a major
character is injured, and Sheridan takes command of the Agamnemnon. An
episode that Doug Berry quoted from on his sig file not so long ago. Title
is something like 'between the darkness and the light.'

(This may give US readers an idea how far behind you we are).

My question is: We know that B5 has cyrotechnology like low berths, so why
didn't they put the major character in it to give them time to find a way
to heal her?

ObTrav: Can a character be too seriously wounded to be placed in a cryo
tube / low berth for later treatment?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:07:05 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

At 09:01 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
>wise)
>Me:
>Solomani 50%
>Vargr 35%
>Sword Worlder 15%
>

Vargr 75%
Sword Worlders 20%
Solomani 5%

- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 18:21:11 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

At 09:01 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
>wise)
>Me:
>Solomani 50%
>Vargr 35%
>Sword Worlder 15%
>
>

Me, 100% Sword Worlder.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 21:29:23 -0600
From: "Joseph R. Dietrich" <yikes@evansville.net>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

- -----Original Message-----
From: Glenn Crawford <glennc@nelvana.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Thursday, November 27, 1997 11:31 AM
Subject: Races of the TML


>
>How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
>wise)
>Me:
>Solomani 50%
>Vargr 35%
>Sword Worlder 15%
>

Grandfather ... };-)

Joseph R. Dietrich
yikes@evansville.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:20:12 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

At 02:24 PM 11/27/97 -0800, you wrote:
>At 09:01 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
>>wise)
>>Me:
>>Solomani 50%
>>Vargr 35%
>>Sword Worlder 15%
>
>Vargr.
>
>>

You dawg....;)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 20:35:46 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: womon-identified womyn?

A>The kind Doug and I are sick of dealing with.  They keep telling me that
>I'm not bisexual, but really gay and "submitting to the patriarchal
>paradigm."
>--


Umm, what the hell planet are they from?  sheesh.  Bi is just what it is,
bi.  People get the damndest ideas when they start making assumptions.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 06:40:51 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data

On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:

Well, lets see if I can help.

> While flipping through my brand new Milleu 0: Campaign I got confused.
>=20
> The descriptions of the worlds include more data than the standard UWP. I
> understand the UWP, the remarks and the "B" column (bases).
>=20
> There is a column called PBG. I have understood what P is for (population=
),
> but not B and G, and I cannot seem to find them (it's pretty late in the
> evening here in Sweden, but ...).

The P is the population modifier. A world with a UWP of 222444-8 and a P
value of 5 would have 50.000 inhabitants.

The B is the numbers of belts in the system. If the main world is an
asteroid belt it is not included in this number I belive.

The G is the number of gas giants in the system.

>=20
> The stellar data is also somewhat of a mystery to me. Ever star (more tha=
n
> one in some systems) is described something like "G4 V". G is probably th=
e
> spectral class (meaning a yellow dwarf star, like the Sun), but I do not
> understand the rest of it.
>=20

Well your right in your guess evn though you might not know it. The G4 is
the spectral classification of the star. There are seven main classes,=20
O B A F G K M, which each is divided into ten subclasses. A G0 star is
very close to a F9 star. Check out info on the Harvard spectral
classification for more info.

The V behind the spectral classification is the Yerkes spectral
classification. It indicates what type of star one is dealing with

       Ia  - most luminous supergiants
       Ib  - less luminous supergiants
       II  - luminous giants
       III - normal giants
       IV  - subgiants
       V   - main sequence stars (dwarves)
sometimes D is used for white dwarves.=20

> An explanation of this would be very helpful.
>=20
Hope this helps :-)

> Another question: What is the population of the Third Imperium composed o=
f?
> There is demographics data for the nearby pocket empires, but not for the
> Imperium itself (not that I can seem to find, anyway).
>=20

This I leave to the more experienced of the list.

>=20
> Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no   =20
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere=20
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5=20

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 01:37:10 EST
From: DustyLV769 <DustyLV769@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

In a message dated 97-11-28 01:15:28 EST, you write:

<< How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
 >wise)
 >Me: >>

Zhodani actually...75%
Solomani 25%

Ed

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 08:34:46 +0200 (EET)
From: "Mikko V. I. Parviainen" <mvparvia@cc.hut.fi>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Glenn Crawford wrote:
> How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
> wise)

Hiver. 100%

Mikko Parviainen
- -- 
Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop eating.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 01:12:39 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: A modest CSC proposal

NB: my post which I quote below was going to go privately to Rob Prior.
Sigh - a slip of the finger will do it every time.

>Just got a chance to try CSC out.  It is just AMAZING.

This is still true.  Just amazing work.

>BTW, ISTR you were using a 68k machine.  Do you have need of a program to
>generate postscript sectors/subsector maps?  I mentioned this a while ago,
>but I could not coerce a 68k version of my program out of CW until the
>latest release graced my desk.

I might have phrased this differently had I been planning on sending it to
the list at large.  Essentailly, I have written something in the spirit of
sub2ps, but with a somewhat larger mission.  It is still focussed on
creating a PostScript map of a secot or subsector from a data file like the
M0 one, or the subnbane files.

Good points:

Handling map files like Marc's M0 file.

Ability to deal with producing a subsector map, 16 subsector maps, or a
single sector map.

Allows group definitions, which can be used to do borders, shading, or display.

Ability to print just physical stats, presence, or full stats of a group.

Subsector displays are either in a traditional half page form with data, or
a full page form that puts most of the data within the printed hexes.

Downsides:

no color

No UI, solely command line

PPC and 68k mac versions seem to work, but I have been getting crashes on
the PC version.

I have not yet tested it on the old sunbane/Genie files.  It should be able
to deal with them, but "should" is not the same as "verified to work".

No real docs.  Perhaps I will find a few hours this weekend.

Legends are still too rought for my happiness.  Might replaces them with
pure text.

My current plans:

Translating it to Java, so I can get a decent UI on both the platforms I
work with.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 23:32:17 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive

Robert Eaglestone <eaglesto@nortel.ca> did write
>>Post information about your webpage for others' reference

a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz                      Andrew Moffatt-Vallance
user.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/traveller         Andrew's Traveller Page
user.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/vehic/vehicles    Andrew's Used Gravcar Lot
user.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/weapons/weaapons  Andrew's Arms Bazaar
user.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/library/int_wars  History of the Interstellar Wars

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 05:29:11 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Imperium map and sector reference

I've put together all of the information from the recent posts on the list
and remade an Excell file of all of the currently known (to me) sector
names. It includes multiple language entries where known, and has a letter
and number reference grid. I've also created a JPEG map based on one
published in the '80 showing the Imperium and surrounding cultures. Together
they are pretty handy for locating sectors and what race dominates them, if
a little course in scale. Anyone interested in a .zip of the two files
please drop me an email. To those that have recieved earlier version(s) of
the Excell file, the JPEG has made it conciderably larger, so rather than
just fill you email box with what might be junk mail, just let me know if
you what the revised files.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:05:08 +0000 (GMT)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

Me, well lets see ...

40% Solomani
40% Vilani
20% assorted other

basically 100% Imperial ... :-)


	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'
	http://www.comp.it.bton.ac.uk/~edq/
                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 27 Nov 1997 17:23:46 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

Glenn Crawford wrote:
> 
> How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
> wise)
> Me:
> Solomani 50%
> Vargr 35%
> Sword Worlder 15%

Me: 
Solomani 39%
Zhodani 25 %
Aslan 20 %
Vargr 10 %
Other 06 %

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:11:38 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

On Thu, 27 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> At 09:01 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
> >
> >How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or=
 %
> >wise)
> >Me:
> >Solomani 50%
> >Vargr 35%
> >Sword Worlder 15%
>=20
> Vargr.
>=20
>=20
Aslan in the first, then Zhodani, then Hiver

L.A.

=B4Nothing is easier than insulting an Aslan
 Nothing is more difficult than surviving this.=B4

old proverb, source unknown (perhaps a trader of the first contact?)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:19:58 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data

On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:

> While flipping through my brand new Milleu 0: Campaign I got confused.
>=20
> The descriptions of the worlds include more data than the standard UWP. I
> understand the UWP, the remarks and the "B" column (bases).
>=20
> There is a column called PBG. I have understood what P is for (population=
),
> but not B and G, and I cannot seem to find them (it's pretty late in the
> evening here in Sweden, but ...).

Strange, this TPPG Code has been used since MegaTraveller and is found on=
=20
almost all of the sector data DGP and GDW published since then. Perhaps=20
you are missing this material, so here is the legend (which in fact ought=
=20
to be written at the data you=B4ve got).

T: Travel Zone (discarded in Milieu:0)
P: Population Multiplier
B: Number of Asteroid Belts
G: Number of Gas Giants

> The stellar data is also somewhat of a mystery to me. Ever star (more tha=
n
> one in some systems) is described something like "G4 V". G is probably th=
e
> spectral class (meaning a yellow dwarf star, like the Sun), but I do not
> understand the rest of it.
>=20
> An explanation of this would be very helpful.

In the classic Traveller Book =B4Scouts=B4 as in the World Builder=B4s Hand=book=20
these codes were tabled. These tables are not so small, so I don=B4t now=20
them all from my memory, but you=B4re right with the spectral class (G4) an=
d=20
size (V) codes. I think they are the same that are used by astronomers, as=
=20
I#m not one of them, you=B4ll get an answer if ask one of them.

> Another question: What is the population of the Third Imperium composed o=
f?
> There is demographics data for the nearby pocket empires, but not for the
> Imperium itself (not that I can seem to find, anyway).

I leave this, too, up to another one who knows more about it than I now.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:24:43 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Traveller Software - An idea

Over the last few months there's been the usual discussion about the
software that we all want (not to mention the platform debate!) for our
Traveller needs. It set me off thinking about what software I'd like to
see...

Obviously, software like Rob Prior's Metator and Infini-V (ex-CSC) are
things that are vital to a referee short on time. Andrew Atkins FFS2
spreadsheet does similar things for PC owners, as does the Dulinor suite.
Useful tools, real aides for a referee.

But what I'd *really* like to see is something like Battle Rider done in
3D, with access for multiple players. A game that combines strategy with
tactics. Imagine using Trillion Credit Squadron and being able to control
and dispatch fleets *in the dark of what your enemy is doing*. And when a
battle occurs being able to go in and give tactical orders to specific
ships.

It's something that hasn't really been done before - you may say Star Fleet
Academy does something similar but I'd disagree - because almost every game
that has big ships in treats them like fighters. I'd like a game that gives
a chance to select formations, to manuever lumbering battle wagons.  To
plan production from your conquests, maybe even design your own ships. To
link against computers or humans or both at once. Maybe some nice CGI like
B5... Being a Mac owner, it's be nice to have it on both Mac and PC
platforms.

I suppose what I'm describing is a big ships and strategy version of Total
Annhilation. What do you think?

Dom (who thinks that it's more likely than a Traveller movie).

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 09:01:50 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data

At 12:33 AM 11/28/97 +0100, you wrote:
>While flipping through my brand new Milleu 0: Campaign I got confused.
>
>The descriptions of the worlds include more data than the standard UWP. I
>understand the UWP, the remarks and the "B" column (bases).
>
>There is a column called PBG. I have understood what P is for (population),
>but not B and G, and I cannot seem to find them (it's pretty late in the
>evening here in Sweden, but ...).

P: Population Multiplier
B: Planetoid Belts
G: Gas Giant

>The stellar data is also somewhat of a mystery to me. Ever star (more than
>one in some systems) is described something like "G4 V". G is probably the
>spectral class (meaning a yellow dwarf star, like the Sun), but I do not
>understand the rest of it.

The letter is the Stellar Class.. these are O B A F G K M, from hottest to
coolest.

The number is a subclassification, from 0-9, and indicate variants of the
basic type.  A G1 is hotter than a G9

The Roman numeral is size.

Ia: Bright Supergiant
Ib: Weaker Supergiant
II: Bright Giant
III: Giant
IV: Subgiant
V: Main Sequence
VI: Dwarf
D: Subdwarf

Our Sun is a G2v.

>Another question: What is the population of the Third Imperium composed of?
>There is demographics data for the nearby pocket empires, but not for the
>Imperium itself (not that I can seem to find, anyway).

From what I can tell, over 90% of the 3I is humans of varying race.
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2131
***********************************
Traveller-digest     Friday, November 28 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2132



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2131
Whatever Happened to TravIRC?
Re: womon-identified womyn?
Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data
Re: Races of the TML
re: Races of the TML
I'm back!
Kuvasz-class Escort
re: Thruster Plate and the Mass function (was Jumppoints ...)
re: Races of the TML
a couple of comments on Andrew's spreadsheet
Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data
Re: THUDDD Merchant
Looking for PBeM Archives
Traveller Software - An idea
Web pages updated
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data
Re:  Web pages updated
New starship miniatures
Re: womon-identified womyn?
Web page directory contribution
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Whatever Happened to TravIRC?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 28 Nov 1997 17:39:26 GMT
From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2131

traveller@mpgn.com,UUCP writes:
But what I'd *really* like to see is something like Battle Rider done in
3D, with access for multiple players. A game that combines strategy with
tactics. Imagine using Trillion Credit Squadron and being able to control
and dispatch fleets *in the dark of what your enemy is doing*. And when a
battle occurs being able to go in and give tactical orders to specific
ships.

It's something that hasn't really been done before - you may say Star Fleet
Academy does something similar but I'd disagree - because almost every game
that has big ships in treats them like fighters. I'd like a game that gives
a chance to select formations, to manuever lumbering battle wagons.  To
plan production from your conquests, maybe even design your own ships. To
link against computers or humans or both at once. Maybe some nice CGI like
B5... Being a Mac owner, it's be nice to have it on both Mac and PC
platforms.

- ----------

I'm planning on (eventually) doing Pocket Empires as a computer game. 
Actually, I'm hoping someone else will do it first (for the Mac) so that I
can just enjoy it.  :-)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 12:57:29 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Whatever Happened to TravIRC?

I was gone from home and email for most of the summer, and too busy to
worry during this past fall... but whatever happened to the regular
Thursday night Traveller IRC get-togethers?

Did IG decide to shut down their server (I note it's no longer up)?  Was
attendance too sparse?  Did the TML flamewars I seem to recall from then
drive people away?

I sort of miss those fun real-time meetings and discussions.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 97 18:25 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: womon-identified womyn?

In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971126213406.007d19e0@mail.pcisys.net>

David,

> Certainly. They're human beings of the gender without protruding
> primary sexual characteristics, who object to the white
> protestant patriarchal slaveholding repressive unnatural society,
> and the domination of language implicit in referring to them as
> "woMEN" as the inclusion of three letters designating the evil
> sex clearly declares to the world their inferior status, and
> hence have chosen to liberate themselves from the aforementioned
> WPPShRUS by freeing their designation from that slave collar. The
> proper singular noun to refer to a human being of the gender
> without PPSC is womon, and the plural is womyn.

<sigh>

Sometimes I think a .1c dinosaur-killer would be the best thing for 
this planet.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 10:00:47 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data

At 12:33 am 11/28/97 +0100, you wrote:

>There is a column called PBG. I have understood what P is for
(population),
>but not B and G, and I cannot seem to find them (it's pretty
late in the
>evening here in Sweden, but ...).


	P= Population Multiplier
	B= # Asteroid Belts
	G= # Gas Giants

>The stellar data is also somewhat of a mystery to me. Ever star
(more than
>one in some systems) is described something like "G4 V". G is
probably the
>spectral class (meaning a yellow dwarf star, like the Sun), but
I do not
>understand the rest of it.

	G4= Spectral class and subclass (IIRC, our sun is G0)
	V=  Stellar Size

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:05:30 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

At 09:01 AM 11/27/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
>wise)
>Me:
>Solomani 50%
>Vargr 35%
>Sword Worlder 15%
>
>


	Pure, 100% Spofulam.  All in the Famille :).

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 13:59:42 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Races of the TML

Doug Berry writes
>Vargr

Somehow, I would have guessed that...

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 16:12:29 -0600
From: "K.C. Komosky" <umkomosk@cc.UManitoba.CA>
Subject: I'm back!

>(Interesting question - what race would different TML posters be identified
>with? It's pretty easy to spot the crazed Solomani supremacist, and the 
>various Vargr...and the tradtionalist Vilani...I'm probably an
>obsessed-with-my-own-project and generally-in-favour-of-rearranging-everyting
>Hiver.)

	Well, I'd have to call myself:

90% K'kree!!!
9% Darrian
1% Hiver

	Oh, and I just wanted to warn everyone that I'm back, after a much-longer than-anticipated absence 'for the summer'.

K.C. Komosky
umkomosk@cc.umanitoba.ca

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:11:58 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Kuvasz-class Escort

Kuvasz class FFE				
Designed by Bruce Macintosh (BAMTech)				
				
Statistics				
	Tons: 500std ( USL Med Cylinder )  Crew: 31/47  Cargo: 22std (1/0)
	Volume: 7,000m3  Passengers High/Med: 0/0	Cost: 1,325.901 MCr
	Mass (L/C): 12,659t/12,045t  Passengers Low: 0	Maintenance Points: 363
	Dimensions: 33.0m x 16.4m x 16.4m		Troops/Science: 0/0	
	Tech Level: 12 Size: 8		Frozen Watch: 0(0 group)	
				
Electronics				
	Controls: Dynamic, Standard automation. 3xFibComp (CM:0.4 CP:2.5). 
		  Bridge			
	Communications: 1xRadio (500,000km, 0.17MW). 4xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW). 			
	Sensors: 1xPas. Scanner (14 [50mkm], 0.08MW). 
		 1xPas. Tracker (13.5 [16mkm], 0.01MW). 
		 1xPEMS (13.5 [16mkm], 0.01MW). 
		 1xAEMS (12 [1.6mkm], 25.00MW). 
		 2xLIDAR (15.5 [5mkm], 6.00MW). 			
	Survey/Science: 			
	ECM: 1xArea. Jammer (11, 125.00MW). 1xPas. Jammer (15, 1.00MW). 			
	Signatures: Vis:-0.5, IR:0.5 (0.0 at 167MW), Act:0.5, Neu:1, Grav:1			
				
Weaponry					Performance	
4xMaster Fire Directors (+4 0MW 300,000km)	2	Jump (50std/pc fuel)
4xLaser (+0) 1/2-1-0-0 [1,10/41-35-17-9]	3.0/3.2	Maneuver 
							(Thruster:963MW)
10xLaser (+4) 1/2-0-0-0 [1,200/24-12-6-3]	0.0/0.0	Contra-grav (0MW)
	 					n/a	Atmosphere
	 					7	Power 
							(Fusion:1,170MW,1.0 
							Fusion+:500MW,120.0)
2xMissile Laun 1/1 (12)				112.5	Fuel
w/13 FIM DetLaser
10 kT Warhead (1d6x1)[36:1/20]			35/4/4/0/0  Accomodations
20G/2 G-hour AND Drive 				250	Life Support 
LIDAR 14.5 laser com 500,000						        (Type:St FQ:Mn Sto)
		 				2	G-Comp 
	 					0	ESA
	 					1	Sandcasters 
							(AV:200 Cans:10)
	 					0	Damper Turrets
	 					0	Damper Screen 
	 					0	Meson Screen 
	 					0	Force Field
	 					0	Gravtics
	 					60 [300]Armor, Structure 14
				
Features				
5xAirlock			1xDocking Umbilical
	 		 	 
1xShip's locker (0.25std ea.)	 
	 		 	 
	 		 	 
1xOrdinary Galley (Cap:42)			
				
				
Small Craft				
	 		 	 
1xDocking Ring (10std craft). No craft normally carried.	 
	 		 	 
	 		 	 
				
Backups				
	Drives: 			
	Screens: 			
	Communications: 1xRadio (50,000km). 			
	Sensors: 			
	Survey/Science: 			
	ECM: 			
	Power & Fuel: 			
				
Crew Details				
	3xMnvr. 3xElec. 16xEngr. 2xMain. 16xGunn. 1xScrn. 7xCmnd. 			

The Kuvasz is designed as a moderate-cost moderate-performance escort vessel
for defending larger warships or merchant craft against fighters, missiles,
pirates, relativistic rocks, and Templars. The ship is armed with 4
heavy laser barbettes for engaging other warships, but its main armament
is 10 high ROF short-ranged laser turrets. In addition it has two launchers
for light short-ranged fire-and-forget homing missiles. (In T4 terms
these missiles are only useable out to Short range but require no guidance;
in BL terms they have 20G maneuver capability but only 4 G-turns of fuel and
may be launched against other missiles or fighters in the same hex as the
launching ship, in which case they fire before the
incoming missile or fighter can fire. They may also be used against fighters or ships
using the normal combat rules.

The sensor suite, as one would expect from a BAMTech design, is elaborate;
a long-range scanner for initial detection, and LIDARs for fire control,
with backup PEMS trackers and multifunction arrays. This gives it the 
capability to detect even highly stealthy fighters out to million-km ranges and
engage them at 500,000km range.

One innovative feature is the use of a Fusion+ "boost plant" to power the
weapons in combat; in non-combat situations it is shut down, so that the
high maintenance requirements and limited endurance of Fusion+ does not
affect performance. 

The ship is unstreamlined and incapable of field 
refuelling, as it is intended to operate with fleets or with convoys travelling
between starports. The crew is slightly oversized to provide potential
replacements for other ships in the fleet. The docking ring will accomodate
a standard skiff, though one is not normally carried. One major limitation
is the Jump-2 capability. Although this was deemed sufficient for operations 
with merchant convoys and second-line warfleets, it will be unable to keep
up with Jump-3 main battle fleets.


Designers notes: This was designed using Andrew's impressive spreadsheet
(with some tweaks, such as using 300,000 and 150,000km beam pointers and
MFDs.)
Aside from showing off a couple of tricks - like the
fusion+ auxilliary power plant - the main point of this design (which it
arrives too late for) is providing an opponent for THUDD 7 fighters. Using
BL rules it could completely destroy any number of
Gede fighters (whose PAW would
be unable to penetrate the hull) and Tsikio fighters (having enough
acceleration to keep out of meson gun range while destroying it with its
lasers.) The Drachen Jaeger is the only one that is a serious
threat to the Kuvasz - for the price of one Kuvasz you get 16 Jaegers,
which can pick the Kuvasz appart at long range. (Of course, that
doesn't include the price of a carrier for the Kuvasz.)

Also note the sensor suite; making the biggest sensor scanner-only saves 
MCr 125, while once a target is detected it can be engaged with the LIDAR.

In BL terms, the heavy laser battery is rated 10:41 20:35 40:17 80:9 with a
penetration of 1/10 at all ranges; the rapid-fire lasers are
(-3) 5:24 10:24 20:24 40:24 with a penetration of 1/10 and an integral MFD.
(Laser penetration independent of intensity is a suggested FFS2 fix.) 
The warhead in the missiles is 36 with a penetration of 1/10.


This ship will often be used on in-system partrol (operating from a suitable
starport or base) and could generally be used for encounters - sort of a 
Milleu 0 version of the Gazelle (with more firepower and lower performance.)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:18:23 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Thruster Plate and the Mass function (was Jumppoints ...)

I'm not completely sure how it becamse 2000 AU in FFS2 - the original intent
(which most of the other T4 products reflect) was 2000 *diameters*,
around 20 AU - to make the Kuiper belt (and incidently pluto) hard to get to.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 22:06:39 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Races of the TML

 Glenn Crawford <glennc@nelvana.com> wrote:

>How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
>wise)
>Me:
>Solomani 50%
>Vargr 35%
>Sword Worlder 15%
>

Solomani 80%
Darrian 20%
Soft spot for the Aslan and Zho's.

Race I most detest - K'Kree.  (Not from a race perspective - it's just
their culture makes me cold and I saw there big saucers in Independence
Day! ;-) )

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:17:42 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: a couple of comments on Andrew's spreadsheet

(Which is generally excellent, of course - these are just comments from
some playing around with it.)

(1) Weapon ranges and MFD sizes are kind of funny. This is more a flaw with
FFS2, of course - since we had no idea what the weapons range bands were going
to be we only put in 50,000 and 500,000km beam pointers and MFDs, but for
SSDS you need to rate performance at 300,000km. We should put back in the
300,000km beam pointer and mFD from the original FFS, and designers designing
for T4 should use that - and possibly put back in the other intermediate-range
MFDs for people designing for BL; but at the minimum, people designing for
T4 should be required to have 500,000km MFDs or beam pointers (or 300,000km
if we put them in.)

(2) Prices are mixed up for life support types (because the minimal life
support price is missing.)

(3) Missile launchers seem to always be forced to have a laser comm - which
they only need if they have a workstation - and always get charged for an
MFD whether one is installed or not. (This makes it hard to design 
light single-shot tubes for FIMs.)

(4) At least in the Excel verison I have, much of the crew calculation is
disabled.

(5) Tracker-only and Scanner-only sensors at TL10+ should be 75% cheaper

(6) Should have an option for installing multiple sensors of a given type -
military ships will often want 4-6 LIDArs, for example.

Generally a great product - certainly makes FFS2 life much easier!

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 23:24:19 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data

On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> The Roman numeral is size.
> 
> Ia: Bright Supergiant
> Ib: Weaker Supergiant
> II: Bright Giant
> III: Giant
> IV: Subgiant
> V: Main Sequence
> VI: Dwarf
> D: Subdwarf

Here you should be very careful. According to Yerkes classification there
is no VI or D class stars, both are accounted for in V, although I have 
seen D used for white dwarves.

> | Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 14:40:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: THUDDD Merchant

> Date: 27 Nov 1997 18:46:14 GMT
> From: Rob_Prior@nybe.north-york.on.ca (Rob Prior)
> 
> How about giving us a route for this ship, and going for the best profit with
> that route?
> 
> It would be easy to simulate expected freight and passenger loads, fuel,
> salary and maintenance costs, and so forth.
> 
> Things like survivability and flexibility could still be decided by vote.

Excellent plan.  I would be very pleased to solicit help from the List on
developing a route for our THUDDD 8 Subsidized Merchant.  What we're
looking for is a loop of 3-6 systems, Jump-2 linked by successive pairs,
with one or at most two "well-developed" worlds and the rest worlds which
the Imperium wishes to prod into greater economic importance.  Worlds in
the latter category will generally be in potentially strategic positions
near the Imperial border, and will have lowish populations and non-T-prime
UPPs.  Finally, the loop should not be intrinsically profitable --
otherwise, there'd be no need to subsidize merchants to cover it.

Suggestions?

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:10:43 -0800
From: "Kelly St.Clair" <kellys@efn.org>
Subject: Looking for PBeM Archives

Hello, hello... *taps commdot*

I'm trying to find the current location of the archives of the Traveller 
PBeM, run by (?) and later the team of Mike Metlay and Mark Cook, in which
I was a player many moons ago.  I'm hoping that someone saved a copy when
sunbane vanished.

Thanks in advance.


- --------------
Kelly St.Clair
kellys@efn.org

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:22:57 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Traveller Software - An idea

>traveller@mpgn.com,UUCP writes:
>But what I'd *really* like to see is something like Battle Rider done in
>3D, with access for multiple players. A game that combines strategy with
>tactics. Imagine using Trillion Credit Squadron and being able to control
>and dispatch fleets *in the dark of what your enemy is doing*. And when a
>battle occurs being able to go in and give tactical orders to specific
>ships.
....
>Being a Mac owner, it's be nice to have it on both Mac and PC
>platforms.
>
>I'm planning on (eventually) doing Pocket Empires as a computer game.
>Actually, I'm hoping someone else will do it first (for the Mac) so that I
>can just enjoy it.  :-)

Rob - please do FF&S first!  After seeing CSC, I figure you woul;d so a
really impresive FF&S.

I am hoping to do PE eventually, once I adapt the sector mapper to Java,
and then add a front end.  With any luck, Jo Grant's work will save me a
bunch of time, so I can get to the ecenomic engine.

Of course, if you get it done first, I would be very happy to see it.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 17:53:18 -0700
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Web pages updated

I have updated my web pages, adding two for the public to view, although
one was advertised before on TML, the other had previously only been
circulated at my University.  It is now accessible through my "What's
New" section.

HIWG: Roger - Do I have the HIWG links correct?  Let me know.

Oh Yeah, My Classic Traveller For Sale page does not have a couple of
items on it that I recently came across.  If anyone is looking for a
slightly used copy of High Guard (2nd printing, CT Book 5) or Mercenary
(CT Book 4), send me an e-mail offlist and I'll judge what it is worth
to sell, so if interested, send what you would be willing to pay for
either of them.  (Note: this is not an offer to sell, only a solicitation.
Qualified buyers should negotiate terms by e-mail. [the lawyers made me
put that in. :) ] )

For those of you who continue to discover my page, and tolerate the fact
that it had not been updated since May '97, I continue to thank you for
your kind words, and providing me inspiration to get back to work.


Leroy       http://ouray.cudenver.edu/~lwlguatn


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:26:18 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

In mail you write:

> How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
> wise)
> Me:
> Solomani 50%
> Vargr 35%
> Sword Worlder 15%

I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:33:37 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data

In mail you write:

> While flipping through my brand new Milleu 0: Campaign I got confused.
>
> The descriptions of the worlds include more data than the standard UWP. I
> understand the UWP, the remarks and the "B" column (bases).
>
> There is a column called PBG. I have understood what P is for (population),
> but not B and G, and I cannot seem to find them (it's pretty late in the
> evening here in Sweden, but ...).

B is "belts" as in asteriod/planetoid belts.
G is gas giants (I think).

> The stellar data is also somewhat of a mystery to me. Ever star (more than
> one in some systems) is described something like "G4 V". G is probably the
> spectral class (meaning a yellow dwarf star, like the Sun), but I do not
> understand the rest of it.

The G4 is the spectral type. Each spectral type is sub-divided into 10
subtypes by astronomers, as otherwise the scale is too coarse. So a G4
is 4/10ths of the way from G to F (or is it G to K? I can never remember).

The V is the *size* of the star. Remember, there are red giants and red
dwarfs that have the *same* spectral class (surface temp), but vastly
different sizes. The ratings are roman numerals (I, II, III, IV, V, VI)
and "D" for "dwarf" (as in "white dwarf", *not* "red dwarf"). The "VI"
was in the older rules bu has been dropped after someone pointed out
that they are just *too* rare to be found.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 18:11:14 -0700
From: lguatney@carbon.cudenver.edu (Leroy William Lu Guatney)
Subject: Re:  Web pages updated

Oh yeah, for our readers in Germany, the first item on my "What's New"
page may be something you had heard about.

Leroy       http://ouray.cudenver.edu/~lwlguatn


Leroy Guatney - lwlg@usa.net
 University of Mars, NorthAm Campus
 Class of '98

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 15:20:35 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: New starship miniatures

I just saw some new starship miniatures, in pewter, suitable for
Traveller.  One series is from the Japanese anime series Star Blazers,
and features a variety of nice ships, including the sea-going battleship
Yamato, converted to a star-faring warship.  The other series has small
ships from Babylon 5.  They're all a little pricey, averaging $9 per
blister pack at Games of Berkeley.  Check 'em out.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 19:20:11 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: womon-identified womyn?

Andrew Boulton wrote:

>In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971126213406.007d19e0@mail.pcisys.net>
>
>David,
>
>> Certainly. They're human beings of the gender without protruding
>> primary sexual characteristics, who object to the white
>> protestant patriarchal slaveholding repressive unnatural society,
>> and the domination of language implicit in referring to them as
>> "woMEN" as the inclusion of three letters designating the evil
>> sex clearly declares to the world their inferior status, and
>> hence have chosen to liberate themselves from the aforementioned
>> WPPShRUS by freeing their designation from that slave collar. The
>> proper singular noun to refer to a human being of the gender
>> without PPSC is womon, and the plural is womyn.
>
><sigh>
>
>Sometimes I think a .1c dinosaur-killer would be the best thing for
>this planet.

Nah, there are much better ways of killing the dinosaurs.  All you really
need to do is get rid of the "Y" chromosome-parasite that Grandfather set
loose.  Besides, a .1c rock might damage the environment. :|

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 20:28:57 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Web page directory contribution

My links are ('scuse the long addresses [and haphazard HTMLing]):

<mailto:kenji@accessone.com>             Kenji Schwarz
<http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/index.html>
      Traveller main directory/home page/whatever
<http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html>
      Traveller Language List Homepage, including resource page in progress and
      drafts of the Vilani project
<http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/sayat.html>
      Sayat Homepage (supplementary info. to the Freelance Traveller article)

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 22:17:59 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

Wow,cool question...

50% Virushi - I'm big and non-violent...
25% Aslan - I'd like to think I have a kind of honor...
25% Darrian - I love art and technology (heck, I see them as one
  and the same, sometimes).

- -- 
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                        |
| Igor Software - igor@ames.net, www.ames.net/igor/                   |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your   |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your  |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love      |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your   |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has toched mine.                |
|                      - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"             |
+---------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 28 Nov 1997 21:22:26 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: Whatever Happened to TravIRC?

Funny you should mention this...

> I was gone from home and email for most of the summer, and too busy to
> worry during this past fall... but whatever happened to the regular
> Thursday night Traveller IRC get-togethers?
> 
> Did IG decide to shut down their server (I note it's no longer up)?  Was
> attendance too sparse?  Did the TML flamewars I seem to recall from then
> drive people away?

The IG server is down. This happened when the webmaster of the day 
ceased being webmaster for the site. I have no information as to the 
intentions of IG for any possible future for this site.

At first, I'd hoped it would be brought back online, so I put off 
posting any 'Traveller Chat' posts. Then I was just plain 
in-over-my-head busy, so I didn't post. By that time, it had been so 
long...


> I sort of miss those fun real-time meetings and discussions.

But I miss them, too, so...

Back to Undernet we go, with all its problems. As always, I need 
topics. I can't come up with them week after week, so please help me! 

I'd like some input as to the best day to hold Traveller Chat. For 
this coming week, however, we'll hold it on Thursday, as is 
traditional, at 7:00pm Central time. The server of choice is 
StLouis.MO.us.undernet.org, ports 6660-6669.

Suz


Suzette C. Dollar
#Traveller Channel Manager
suzd@goodnet.com

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2132
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Sunday, November 30 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2133



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data
Races of the TML
Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data
TravTech sub address?
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Races of the TML
re: Races of the TML
Magnetic Sails and Interstellar Braking
Re: a couple of comments on Andrew's spreadsheet
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Races of the TML
Re: I'm back!
Laser Rifles
Alien
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2132 
Sword Worlders
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Laser Rifles
Re: womon-identified womyn?
Re: a couple of comments on Andrew's spreadsheet

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:23:08 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data

Tommy Grav wrote:

>On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:
>
>> The Roman numeral is size.
>> 
>> Ia: Bright Supergiant
>> Ib: Weaker Supergiant
>> II: Bright Giant
>> III: Giant
>> IV: Subgiant
>> V: Main Sequence
>> VI: Dwarf
>> D: Subdwarf
>
>Here you should be very careful. According to Yerkes classification there
>is no VI or D class stars, both are accounted for in V, although I have 
>seen D used for white dwarves.

   Well this is what I remember from Astronomy class:

Ia: Bright Supergiant
Ib: Supergiant
II: Bright Giant
III: Giant
IV: Subgiant
V: Dwarf (aka "main sequence")
VI: Subdwarf
D: White dwarf

Note: White dwarfs used to be 'VII', but that designation is rarely used
now.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 20:06:03 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Races of the TML

Fun for all the family, just assign a traveller race to well known TML
personalities

Please fill in the following form and add names as you see fit. Anybody
you don't recognise just leave blank.

Dave Golden:
Harold Hale
The Berry Bro.:
Suzette Dollar:
Kenji Schwartz:
Hans Rancke:
Jeff Zeitlin:
Bill Prankard:
Rob Prior:
Joseph Lockett:
Mike Bailey:
Andrew Boulton:
Roderick Darroch Elliott:
Leonard Erickson:
Eris the Heretic:
Andrew Moffatt-Vallance:
Jim Vassilakos:

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 02:09:57 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Understanding the Milleu 0 data

Leonard Erickson writes:

In mail you write:

>> While flipping through my brand new Milleu 0: Campaign I got 
>>confused.
>>
>> The descriptions of the worlds include more data than the standard 
>>UWP. I understand the UWP, the remarks and the "B" column (bases).
>>
>> There is a column called PBG. I have understood what P is for 
>>(population), but not B and G, and I cannot seem to find them (it's
>>pretty late in the
>>evening here in Sweden, but ...).
>
>B is "belts" as in asteriod/planetoid belts.
>G is gas giants (I think).

   That is correct.

>> The stellar data is also somewhat of a mystery to me. Ever star (more than
>> one in some systems) is described something like "G4 V". G is probably the
>> spectral class (meaning a yellow dwarf star, like the Sun), but I do not
>> understand the rest of it.
>
>The G4 is the spectral type. Each spectral type is sub-divided into 10
>subtypes by astronomers, as otherwise the scale is too coarse. So a G4
>is 4/10ths of the way from G to F (or is it G to K? I can never remember).

   The order is OBAFGKM, with O being the hottest and M being the
coolest (there are also type R, N, and S stars, please ignore them for
purposes of this discussion).  The best way to remember them is the
phrase "Oh Be A Fine Girl Kiss Me", in which the word 'girl' can be
substituted with the word 'guy' if you prefer.  There are indeed 10
subtypes which are designed 0 - 9, O being warmer than 9 (i.e. a G2 star
is warmer than a G3, a G3 warmer than a G4, a G9 being warmer than a K0,
and so on).

   Type M stars are the most numerous, followed by type K, G, F, A, B
and then O.  Type O stars are generally the shortest lived, type M the
longest (depending upon their size).

>The V is the *size* of the star. Remember, there are red giants and red
>dwarfs that have the *same* spectral class (surface temp), but vastly
>different sizes. The ratings are roman numerals (I, II, III, IV, V, VI)
>and "D" for "dwarf" (as in "white dwarf", *not* "red dwarf"). The "VI"
>was in the older rules bu has been dropped after someone pointed out
>that they are just *too* rare to be found.

   Stars evolve from lumps of gas in a nebula through the T Tauri stage
and eventually end up on the main sequence.  Depending upon their mass
and how hot they are, a typical star will evolve off the main sequence
when it runs out of hydrogen to fuse and begin to expand into a red
giant.  Red giants stars burn fuse helium into heavier elements. 
Eventually that source of energy also runs out, and the star collapses
in on itself.  The result is either a white dwarf (if the star's final
mass is 1.3 solar masses or below) or a neutron star (if the final mass
is above 1.3 solar masses).  Rapidly rotating neutron stars become
pulars.  The more massive the star, the smaller the diameter of the
final object.  This is because the larger the mass, the stronger the
pull on the object's atoms.

   Supergiant stars are massive freaks of nature which have a very short
life followed by a violent end (usually a supernova).  They quickly burn
the bulk of their hydrogen, then helium, working their way up the
periodic table until they reach iron (there is sufficent mass so that
these heavier elements can be created through fusion).  At that point
they catastrophically collapse, throwing debris everywhere (you are here
today because of a supernova).  The result is usually a black hole.

   Subdwarfs are stars that lack elements heavier than hydrogen in any
quantity large enough to create large planetary systems (around 2
percent or less than what the Solar System possesses).  They are
commonly found a globular clusters (primitive clusters of stars), but
can also be found traversing independently through the galactic plain. 
Because of these factors, subdwarfs would be extremely uncommon in the
Traveller universe, or at least they would not be found as companions to
main sequence stars.

   One further note: The older stellar data includes a lot of 'M' type
white dwarfs.  This was done in error, a result of a flawed generation
sequence, a bit of ignorance, and a great deal of "somebody else's
problem" thinking.  The easiest fix for the data is simply to make all
MxD (where 'x' is a number from 0 to 9) stars into MxV (where 'x' is a
number from 0 to 9) stars.  This is one of the major issues that will
have to be addressed when it comes time to edit all the collected sector
data.

Regards,

Harold

P.S. The real astronomers on this list (as in those known as doctor or
professor for short) may feel free to add to or correct my "Reader's
Digest" version of stars above.

- --h

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 00:05:42 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: TravTech sub address?

I seem to have deleted the message with the subscription address.

Anyone care to remind me?

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 03:04:58 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

Glenn Crawford wrote:
> 
> How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
> wise)

50% Darrian
50% Sayat

(Genetically impossible, I suppose. Oh well...)

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
             "Don't be so dark." -- Onan Goopta

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 00:09:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

Myself?

  30% Daryen ("Hmmm...and what happens if we push *this* butBOOOOOOOM")
  50% Hiver  ("Making them want to eat each other seems so...extreme.
              Not to say that's a *bad* thing...")
  20% Droyne ("No, it's just a little thing we've done for...a while,
              now.  No, you wouldn't understand.  Really.")

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:17:08 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

Darrian 60% (hey, they are *way* cool)
Hiver 40% (subtle, tentacled manipulators, I love 'em)

Least favorite:  

K'Kree (does *anyone* like these dudes)
Sword Worlders (too militaristic)
Vilani (too many Vilani bureaucrat villains in the games I was in)


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:22:17 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: re: Races of the TML

At 01:59 PM 11/28/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>Doug Berry writes
>>Vargr
>
>Somehow, I would have guessed that...

Well, I was wearing my best tie-dyed Grateful Dead outfit when I wrote
that, so I have the fashion sense down pat...
- --
+--------------------------------------------------------+
|   Douglas E. Berry                 dberry@hooked.net   |
|             http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/             |
+--------------------------------------------------------+
| "In the long run luck is given only to the efficient." |
|     -Helmuth von Moltke, founder, German Imperial Army |
+--------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 01:21:22 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Magnetic Sails and Interstellar Braking

This may not be strictly on topic, but I know there are a number of folks
who know a heck of a lot more about physics and engineering than I do
here, so I thought I'd ask. 

I've been reading a bit about magnetic sails (huge loops of
superconducting wire carrying lots of current, which are used to "sail"
the solar wind). The articles I've read have all talked about their use as
in-system propulsion.  There are references to articles about their use in
interstellar travel, but I can't get a hold of them. 

So, I've some questions:

The articles I've read mention that magsails can be used to decelerate
starships by using the galactic magnetic field to slow down.  Is this
substantially accurate, and if so, can magsails actually be used to
decelerate a ship going a considerable fraction of C (say 15%-50%C)? 

Also, what sort of deceleration are we talking about, 0.0001 Gs, 0.1 Gs,
what?  About how long would you need to be decelerating, and roughly how
much power and how much sail (diameter) would you need per ton of ship? 

Many Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:15:09 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: a couple of comments on Andrew's spreadsheet

At 02:17 pm 11/28/97 -0800, Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:
>
>(Which is generally excellent, of course - these are just
comments from
>some playing around with it.)
>
>(1) Weapon ranges and MFD sizes are kind of funny. This is more
a flaw with
>FFS2, of course - since we had no idea what the weapons range
bands were going
>to be we only put in 50,000 and 500,000km beam pointers and
MFDs, but for
>SSDS you need to rate performance at 300,000km. We should put
back in the
>300,000km beam pointer and mFD from the original FFS, and
designers designing
>for T4 should use that - and possibly put back in the other
intermediate-range
>MFDs for people designing for BL; but at the minimum, people
designing for
>T4 should be required to have 500,000km MFDs or beam pointers
(or 300,000km
>if we put them in.)

	For what it's worth, the FF&S1 MFDs remain compatible with
FF&S2. That's because, when we ran out of time, all I did for
communicators and MFDs was a straight-line interpolation between
the FF&S1 entries ...

	For spreadsheet gurus out there, your absolute best bet is to
put in the tables from FF&S1, then interpolate based on range
(i.e. for the 50,000km versions, it's part way between FF&S1's
30,000 and 60,000km versions ...). The 500,000km jobbie is a
straightline extrapolation based on the 270,000 and 300,000
versions.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 08:44:47 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:

> In mail you write:
> 
> > How about everybody say what race they personally relate to the most (or %
> > wise)
> > Me:
> > Solomani 50%
> > Vargr 35%
> > Sword Worlder 15%
> 
> I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. :-)

Ahhh, so you're SolSec....

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

> 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 07:54:51 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

At 08:06 PM 11/29/97 +1300, you wrote:

>Harold Hale: Aslan
>The Berry Bro.: Ancients (Yaskodray's smarter brothers, TBE)
>Suzette Dollar: Newt
>Kenji Schwartz: Vargr
>Hans Rancke: Vilani
>Bill Prankard: Geonee
>Rob Prior: Solomani
>Mike Bailey:you mean Australian isn't an alien race?
>Roderick Darroch Elliott: Vargr on LSD
>Leonard Erickson: Droyne Technician
>Eris the Heretic: Klingon (hey, he is a heretic...)

- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 07:48:55 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

At 01:17 AM 11/29/97 -0800, John Snead wrote:

>Least favorite:  
>
>K'Kree (does *anyone* like these dudes)

The K'kree make a great menace.  They are ruthless, powerful, and feel that
it is a good thing to kill every meat-eater in the galaxy.  I ran a MT game
set in the Gateway Sector that made the PCs very afraid of those oversized
ships.

>Sword Worlders (too militaristic)

The Sword Worlders are the main villians in my current game.  Done
correctly, they are scarier than the Zhodani.


- --
+--------------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry               dberry@hooked.net |
|          http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
+--------------------------------------------------+
| "Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver.  The |
|  greater the general, the more he contributes in |
|  maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter."    |
|                     -Sir Winston L. S. Churchill |
+--------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 09:24:57 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: I'm back!

K.C. Komosky wrote:

>        Well, I'd have to call myself:
>
>90% K'kree!!!
>9% Darrian
>1% Hiver

Far to the disturbing side of peculiar... but good to have you back!

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 13:43:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Dralasite@aol.com
Subject: Laser Rifles

   Greetings all!  I caught the end part of a discussion about LABRYS.
Someone wrote that it was a TL-12 laser rifle.  I was wondering if anyone
could E-mail me the stats for it and/or a BMP or GIF of what it looks like.
My address is Dralasite@aol.com.
   I'm currently running a campaign where most of the party are armed
with projectile weapons(auto pistols, advanced combat rifles), except
two marine officers have 4cm chemical cartridge laser rifles.  I want to
introduce some more energy weapons to them(via exploring new star
systems), but I'm unsure which ones I want to use.  At what tech level
did chemical lasers start? TL-13 or sooner?  When did they develop
weapons with self contained power units as opposed to wearing bulky
units on their backs?
               Thanks for the help,
                      Ken Morefield(Dralasite@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 22:49:48 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Alien

Raz&Kat wrote:

> >It wasn't very good
>
> Are you kidding?  I loved it.

I'm seeing a strange dichotomy with this new Alien movie.  There are
those who think its a pretty good movie, and there are those who don't
like it at all.

I went with three other people.  Two of us hated it--I mean really hated
it.  I gave it a 1 out of 5 stars because I thought the special effects
were good.  The other person who hated it wanted to give it a 0, but
settled on a 1 as well after I pointed out the good special effects.

Then, the other two of us, both gave it a 3--rating it a pretty good
movie on our 0-5 scale.

From the reviews I've seen, I see that my group is fairly representative
of many other people's opinons.  I haven't seen anybody who thought it
was the best Alien movie or even an incredible, great, excellent movie,
but I've seen several who think it was a very good movie well worth
seeing.

Then there are others, like me, who thought it was total crap and didn't
get much out of it at all.


The best I can say about Alien Resurrection is to make the analogy of
Rambo.

First Blood was a top notch, very well written/directed/and acted film.
Rambo was a comic book.

Alien 4 is just like that.  It's a comic book complete with a new
superhuman Ripley with acid for blood and space mercenaries who can
shoot a guy behind them (whose holding a gun to their head) by
richoceting a bullet off the ceiling.

I thought it was dumb and a bad direction for the dark, realistic, hard
science series to take.  Others like this sort of thing--with fantastic,
Arnold S. type of stunts and Freddy Kruger gore.

The best thing I can say about the film is that I like Alien 3 better,
and I thought Alien 3 sucked a big enchilada.

For the record, here's what I thought of all the Alien movies.

Alien    3 stars.  A good suspense film, although a little slow.

Aliens   5 stars.  I LOVED this movie, and I still do.

Alien 3  2 stars.  Nice cinematography, but the story didn't go anywhere
interesting.

Alien Resurrection   1 star.  A comic book with some nice special
effects.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:23:41 -0800
From: George Herbert <gherbert@crl.com>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2132 

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) writes:
>Doug Berry writes
>>Vargr
>
>Somehow, I would have guessed that...

Yes, it's easy to tell that Doug leads a Ruff life...


- -george william herbert
Retro Aerospace
gherbert@crl.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 16:06:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Sword Worlders

Quoth Douglas E. Berry:
> The Sword Worlders are the main villians in my current game.  Done
> correctly, they are scarier than the Zhodani.

How would that be?  Story, story!  :-)

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 97 21:30:23 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

On 11/29/97 at 07:54 AM,  "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> said:

>>Harold Hale: Aslan
>>The Berry Bro.: Ancients (Yaskodray's smarter brothers, TBE)

Where did this message come from?  I certainly didn't get the original.

>>Eris the Heretic: Klingon (hey, he is a heretic...)

Hey! I resemble that remark!  ;->  

If you are talking about TOS Klingons I'll buy it...sneaky, sly, and
underhanded.  If you are talking TNG/DS9, then I'd probably be closer to a
scatterbrained Trill or a "politically correct" Ferengi.  

Eris,
    would you believe...Gallifreian? 
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 18:33:27 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Laser Rifles

At 01:43 PM 11/29/97 -0500, Ken wrote:

>   I'm currently running a campaign where most of the party are armed
>with projectile weapons(auto pistols, advanced combat rifles), except
>two marine officers have 4cm chemical cartridge laser rifles.  I want to
>introduce some more energy weapons to them(via exploring new star
>systems), but I'm unsure which ones I want to use.  At what tech level
>did chemical lasers start? TL-13 or sooner?  When did they develop
>weapons with self contained power units as opposed to wearing bulky
>units on their backs?

Canonically, the first appearance of CLC weapons is around TL12/13.  I
think they first showed up in TNE, where the Hivers were supplying some of
the parts for RC laser weapons.

My personal designs (all TL12) use chemical cartridges for reasons of
weight and efficiency.
- --
+---------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry          dberry@hooked.net |
|        http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/       |
+---------------------------------------------+
| "Fixed fortifications are monuments to the  |
|  stupidity of man."  -Gen. George S. Patton |
+---------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 17:17:56 +0000
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: womon-identified womyn?

At 06:25 PM 11/28/97 +0000, you wrote:
>In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971126213406.007d19e0@mail.pcisys.net>
>
>David,
>
>> Certainly. They're human beings of the gender without protruding
>> primary sexual characteristics, who object to the white
>> protestant patriarchal slaveholding repressive unnatural society,
>> and the domination of language implicit in referring to them as
>> "woMEN" as the inclusion of three letters designating the evil
>> sex clearly declares to the world their inferior status, and
>> hence have chosen to liberate themselves from the aforementioned
>> WPPShRUS by freeing their designation from that slave collar. The
>> proper singular noun to refer to a human being of the gender
>> without PPSC is womon, and the plural is womyn.
>
><sigh>
>
>Sometimes I think a .1c dinosaur-killer would be the best thing for 
>this planet.
>______________________________________________________________________
>Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
> "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
>
	Suck down another beer; give a hearty 
	toast to the world at large; and just remember that
	there aren't enough horses.


Tim Connors

Why is it that the day you'ld sell your soul to get something,
	souls are a glut on the market?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:04:08 +0000
From: Tim Crowfoot <tcrowfoot@dial.pipex.com>
Subject: Re: a couple of comments on Andrew's spreadsheet

Greetings and felicitations to the list.

Yes, I'm new so here's a simple question, where can I get this spreadsheet from?

Thanks

Tim


Bruce Alan Macintosh wrote:

> (Which is generally excellent, of course - these are just comments from
> some playing around with it.)
>
> (1) Weapon ranges and MFD sizes are kind of funny. This is more a flaw with
> FFS2, of course - since we had no idea what the weapons range bands were going
> to be we only put in 50,000 and 500,000km beam pointers and MFDs, but for
> SSDS you need to rate performance at 300,000km. We should put back in the
> 300,000km beam pointer and mFD from the original FFS, and designers designing
> for T4 should use that - and possibly put back in the other intermediate-range
> MFDs for people designing for BL; but at the minimum, people designing for
> T4 should be required to have 500,000km MFDs or beam pointers (or 300,000km
> if we put them in.)
>
> (2) Prices are mixed up for life support types (because the minimal life
> support price is missing.)
>
> (3) Missile launchers seem to always be forced to have a laser comm - which
> they only need if they have a workstation - and always get charged for an
> MFD whether one is installed or not. (This makes it hard to design
> light single-shot tubes for FIMs.)
>
> (4) At least in the Excel verison I have, much of the crew calculation is
> disabled.
>
> (5) Tracker-only and Scanner-only sensors at TL10+ should be 75% cheaper
>
> (6) Should have an option for installing multiple sensors of a given type -
> military ships will often want 4-6 LIDArs, for example.
>
> Generally a great product - certainly makes FFS2 life much easier!
>
> Bruce

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2133
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Sunday, November 30 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2134



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

EMail and me....
Re: Races.
Re: Alien
re: strange question
Bridled Steed constellation
Re: Sword Worlders
Re:  Races on the TML
Re: Bridled Steed constellation
Re: Sword Worlders
Zero
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Races.
Re: Races.
Re: Alien
Re: Alien
FFS2 Armour Choice
Some Start Ship Design Questions
Re: Alien
Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:10:02 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: EMail and me....

Hi everyone. My Email software got cabbaged a while ago. The fix lost me
all the saved messages and my address book contents. Could I ask the people
who've been talking to me privately to recontact me please? I've revovered
some addresses but most are truly gone....

Sorry about that.
MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 21:17:46 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Races.

Me?
Solomani (Black leather gloves are cool)
Aslan (I'm furry and no good with money. I never have any anyway.)
Sword Worlders. (Yeah! don't bother with wimpy sensors on your tanks! 
FIT MORE GUNS! BUILD MORE TANKS! 
JUST ROLL OVER EVERYTHING AND WHO CARES WHAT IT IS! 
WHAT YOU LOOKIN' AT ANYWAY? YOU WANT A PUNCH?)

Ahem. Races I don't identify with?
Darrians (Snooty wimps! But at least the Star Trigger was cool. Can I get a
pelvic-mounted version?)

MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 02:41:45 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alien

>I went with three other people.  Two of us hated it--I mean really hated
>it.  I gave it a 1 out of 5 stars because I thought the special effects
>were good.  The other person who hated it wanted to give it a 0, but
>settled on a 1 as well after I pointed out the good special effects.

I went and saw it with two of my friends.  We are all pretty big fans of the
series in the sense that we all own the Alien trilogy boxed sets.  I was
probably the biggest fan of the movies in the group though, from a "film
geek" perspective.

All of us loved it.  It was incredible, my friend Brendan was in awe of it
(as a note, he's a much more artsy than sciencey fellow) like really, mouth
gaping throughout the whole thing.  I must admit, I was really, really
entertained...

But, and there's always a but, isn't there?

BUT, the ending sucked so badly that I am still fuming.  I don't mean the
"ending" directly.  Storywise, the ending was fine, but suddenly, about 15
minutes from the ending the movie just starts getting really stupid and
throws logic, consistency, and decent special effects out the window and just
starts getting _terrible_...

At the risk of being involved in another "ST-like" debacle, my favorites in
the series are, in this order:

Alien - The best of the group.  It scared the pants off me as a child, and,
well, it has surface suits designed by Moebius.  Too cool.

Alien 3 - In my opinion stays closest to the original in feel, flavor, and
look.  Some problems with the plot, but a gripping movie nonetheless.

Aliens - An action film in space.  Eh.  A great movie, but I was expecting to
be scared.

Alien:  Resurrection - If it wasn't for the ending, this movie would be much
higher on the scale.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 01:48:29 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: re: strange question

>Least favorite:  
>
>K'Kree (does *anyone* like these dudes)

  Yes.

>90% K'kree!!!

  It's nice to see someone breaking away from the herd :)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 11:37:03 +0100
From: "Mark Seemann" <dko3835@vip.cybercity.dk>
Subject: Bridled Steed constellation

A short question: Does anyone know which actual stars are members of the
Bridled Steed constellation?

Here's what MTJ 1 has to say about it:

"Bridled Steed: Taking its subject from the horned-horse of Terran
mythology, the "Bridled Steed", an emergent unicorn, is a constellation
spanning the Chronor and Jewell subsectors. Archduke Norris' family has
always used the image as a symbol of its own holdings in the Spinward
Marches. When Norris required a symbol to represent the Domain of Deneb,
the unicorn seemed a natural choice."

Mark Seemann
mark@dk-online.dk (home)
mse@oticon.dk (work)
http://www2.dk-online.dk/users/mark_seemann

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 07:22:31 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Sword Worlders

Joseph Chepe Lockett wrote:
> 
> Quoth Douglas E. Berry:
> > The Sword Worlders are the main villians in my current game.  Done
> > correctly, they are scarier than the Zhodani.
> 
> How would that be?  Story, story!  :-)
> 

Yes, Vargr-gone-it!
- -- 
Erwin Fritz
Unix/NT/LAN Guy
Gilbert Laustsen Jung Associates Ltd.
http://www.glja.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:46:40 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: Re:  Races on the TML

>Mike Bailey:you mean Australian isn't an alien race?

*rotflmao*

wait 'till I do my write-up on the Eyre Cluster (Subsector B/Aldebaran)!

Seriously tho...given the current controversy down here about the Native
Title debate, I thougth I'd use the Eyre Cluster to highlight some of the
more interesting facets of indigenous and National Australian culture
(borrowing liberally from Terry Dowling's brilliant 'Rynosseros' tales).

Bring on the Tribation!

....although I'd prolly class myself as:

75%    'phin
15%    pan-sophontist Solomani
5%    Guinness
5%    Stolichnaya

Slainte,

Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
Clubs!

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:01:57 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: Bridled Steed constellation

>A short question: Does anyone know which actual stars are members of the
>Bridled Steed constellation?
>
>Here's what MTJ 1 has to say about it:
>
>"Bridled Steed: Taking its subject from the horned-horse of Terran
>mythology, the "Bridled Steed", an emergent unicorn, is a constellation
>spanning the Chronor and Jewell subsectors. Archduke Norris' family has
>always used the image as a symbol of its own holdings in the Spinward
>Marches. When Norris required a symbol to represent the Domain of Deneb,
>the unicorn seemed a natural choice."

One scientific remark:

Constellations only exist as such when viewed from specific worlds. If you
move to another world, you will not recognize the constellation. The stars
will be spread out relative to each other, and other stars will probably be
among the stars of the constellation.


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 08:08:45 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Sword Worlders

At 04:06 PM 11/29/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Quoth Douglas E. Berry:
>> The Sword Worlders are the main villians in my current game.  Done
>> correctly, they are scarier than the Zhodani.
>
>How would that be?  Story, story!  :-)

My current campaign is about half-way through 1106.  The Zhodani are
starting to gear up for the Fifth War of Containment.  The SWC is hoping
for a massive land grab.

My model for the Sword Worlds is Israel in the 1950s.  They are tiny,
surrounded by states that either hate them or could crush them without a
second thought, and have a strong cultural identity.  They have a strong
sense of manifest destiny.  They truly believe that the ends justify the
means.

The Confederation's Bureau of Information Management is coordinating piracy
in the Lunion, Glisten, and D-268 subsectors in an effort to force the
Imperial navy to waste time and energy chasing down privateers (see?
SOMEBODY read all those pirate threads!).

The BIM is the worst aspects of the Stasi, KGB, and Mossad rolled into one.
 They think anyone who isn't a Sword Worlder is untermenschen, deserving
only to serve the chosen people.

I'll admit that I've added a bit of Christian Identity to the mix, but
these guys are fanatics, blinded to the reality of what they are doing.
For those of you who read "Honor Harrington", think of the religious
fanatics from "The Honor of the Queen."
- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 16:27:40 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Zero

Some of you may remember Ken Whitman asking for reviewers for his new game
'Zero'. Forgive me for taking up bandwidth with 'way off list stuff, but
here's my review for those who're interested. And for those who're not...
here it is anyway:

Zero - A Review
MJ Dougherty

I believe that every RPG should be unique. Each should have something that
makes it different from all the others. Something other than the type of
dice used, that is. Whether its setting, style or concept, a new game
should have something about it that helps the prospective player decide
between this game and all the others. Otherwise, why publish? Why add one
more game to the market if theres nothing new about it?	It was with this
thought in mind that I opened my review copy of Zero.	
	Zero is a new SF game from Arcangel Entertainment. Its certainly not
mainstream SF - no interstellar travel. Instead it uses a rather grim
setting vaguely reminiscent of Paranoia (without the humor) meets Star
Treks Borg. But a good deal nastier.	
	Visually the game is striking. Its based around Steve Stones rather
weird artwork, which mainly depicts biological/cybernetic creatures. The
basic rulebook (79 pages) is a slim volume in soft, light card covers which
seem reasonably robust (they survived a couple of trips in my notorious
Game Stuff Bag undamaged). The covers look good in black and green - no,
just mainly black. That sums up the game setting as well.	
	Rules are simple, with characters having a few specialist or Focus
skills and being capable of performing any other task with at least some
chance of success. Characters belong to one of five castes: Archivists,
Breeders, Drones, Soldiers or Technicians, with each caste having certain
advantages and disadvantages.
	All characters have a Focus level - equal to the number of Focus skills
the character has. The lower this level is, the better the character is at
those skills - so you can have less Focus skills and be better at them, or
more and be poorer. The characters can perform other skills, but not nearly
so well.
	Combat is quick and simple, with damage based upon how well an attack
succeeds as well as weapon type - a marginal shot with a blaster can be
less damaging than a knife thrown by an expert. With characters able to
take 10 wounds, and a flamer doing 4 per success level, it is possible for
a character with a low Focus level to devastate a target in a single shot.
Combat against skilled opponents can be very deadly.
	The characters begin the game with very little idea about their world.
They are biomechanoids - a combination of human and cybernetic parts. They
are part of the Hive, an underground complex of unknown size and origin.
They were all linked in telepathic unity under the leadership of Queen
Zero, until a few seconds ago. 
	Now the characters suddenly find themselves cut off from the rest of the
Hive, with no idea why or how. They must survive and try to understand what
has happened to them. Now that they have suddenly become individuals the
Hive has rejected them. They have only their caste tools and skills. They
dont even have names - just numbers.
	The characters must struggle to survive first of all, then to discover
what has happened to them. Maybe theyll discover new goals for themselves.
There are many opportunities to be messily killed while this is going
on....	
	The rulebook presents a minimum to start playing the game. Enough
background to get started, enough equipment and being details to run a
game, enough background to let the characters find a little out about the
world. But only just enough.
	Theres plenty the rulebook doesnt tell, and deliberately so. The referee
is not given all the facts in the first book. Instead there is a short
section on the Zero story arc, a discussion on what the game should feel
like, and an injunction to Take the ball and run with it.	
	In some ways this is frustrating - I like answers - but in other ways its
a good idea. The referee has to be creative, because the facts arent
presented. This creativity is guided, but not restricted, by the game
concept. Sort of like youd expect from a game that came from an artists
imagination.	
	The Adventures and Campaigns section offers some advice on running games -
motivating characters, staging adventures, making adventures memorable. The
advice is sound, and covers many areas a beginning referee would struggle
with. Experienced  players might gain a few insights too.
	Lastly, the rulebook contains a sample adventure, which is linear and
somewhat simplistic. With enough GM pressure and some good staging, it
could be a memorable adventure - and in fairness, its hard to write
complex scenarios for first-session games, especially where the setting is
so alien.

	Overall:
	Zero is a very competent product. Its different enough to stand out from
the rest, easy to learn, and well set out. Beginners are guided well enough
to cope - indeed, some things about the game seem targeted at a beginner
audience - but to really make something of this game requires an
experienced referee who can take the setting and concepts and develop them
into something special. There is an ongoing story arc to be developed
through several supplements, and enough mystery to keep GMs and players
interested. The strange - and very gritty, grim and unpleasant -  setting
and the unsusal artwork might be a little off-putting to some, but thats a
matter of taste. Others will love it.	
	I think Zero is a little lightweight at $25 for the rulebook, but at the
same time I found the setting intriguing, and want to know more. Youre not
so much buying a game as a concept here, and theres loads of mileage in
the storyline. Maybe Ill play it out, just to see what happens....	
	I dont think Zero will appeal to everyone, but its well worth looking at
to find out. 
	MJD 30/11/97	

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 09:38:12 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote:

>Fun for all the family, just assign a traveller race to well known TML
>personalities

I'm so shocked to have become a well-known TML personality that I don't
think I can contribute meaningfully.  Well, if I ever have, that is.

Can I quit my day job yet?

(FWIW, the Traveller species I can relate to best is Virus, actually.)

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 18:11 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Races.

In-Reply-To: <199711292124.VAA09048@sand.global.net.uk>

Races I identify with? Probably something like:

50% Solomani
25% Darrian
25% Vargr

With possibly a hint of Hiver.

Definitely no K'Kree.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 18:11 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Races.

In-Reply-To: <199711292124.VAA09048@sand.global.net.uk>

Races I identify with? Probably something like:

50% Solomani
25% Darrian
25% Vargr

With possibly a hint of Hiver.

Definitely no K'Kree.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 18:10 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Alien

In-Reply-To: <34810C8C.40319581@brokersys.com>

Kenneth,

> I'm seeing a strange dichotomy with this new Alien movie.  There are
> those who think its a pretty good movie, and there are those who don't
> like it at all.

It only opened here on Friday (I'm hoping to see it some time this 
week), but this is the story I'm getting from reviewers here, too. 
Everybody agrees it's not as good as the first two, but half the people 
think it was a big improvement on 3, while the rest think it's the worst 
yet.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 18:11 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Re: Alien

In-Reply-To: <971130024144_1215075359@mrin51.mail.aol.com>

> At the risk of being involved in another "ST-like" debacle, my favorites in
> the series are, in this order:
>  
> Alien - The best of the group.  It scared the pants off me as a child, and,
> well, it has surface suits designed by Moebius.  Too cool.

Agreed.


> Alien 3 - In my opinion stays closest to the original in feel, flavor, and
> look.

Yeah, I'd agree with that.

> Some problems with the plot, but a gripping movie nonetheless.

Um. Major plot problems, IMHO (starting with what the **** were those face 
huggers doing there at the start?) Yes, killing off Hicks and Newt kind of fits 
in with the generally hopeless we're-all-going-to-die feel, but it makes a 
complete mockery of all the heroics in the second film. If you don't want them 
in the film, just stick them in a different lifeboat. Also, the fact that 
everybody looks, sounds, and acts pretty much the same (not to mention the fact 
that they're all rapists and murderers) makes it hard to like any of them, 
which means you don't *care* when one of them gets shredded. Wasn't too keen on 
Ripley's death, either.

> Aliens - An action film in space.  Eh.  A great movie, but I was expecting to
> be scared.

Alien was a hard act to follow, and Cameron's best at action films. I'd rate it 
better than 3, but not quite as good as 1.
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 13:00:50 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: FFS2 Armour Choice

Which would you folks prefer:

a) select armour thickness

b) select armour factor


(I'm tinkering with FFS2, and want to avoid too many complications and
rewrites.)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:38:23 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Some Start Ship Design Questions

I have several questions that I'd like to throw out for comment by the list.
They involve a star ship design I'm working on. It's kind of a forerunner to
the infamous Annic Nove (with out the solar collectors of accumulators!).
Any way, I'm interested in utilizing the unique manuver setup of the 'Nova,
i.e. a non-streamlined ship that carries a shuttle with the shuttle acting
as a tug in normal space, while the main ship houses the Jump drive.

Yes, I know that if some one hijacks the shuttle it leaves the main ship in
a bad way. That's part of the idea! (heh, heh, heh)

Anyway, the questions come into docking and the using the shuttle to
manuver. Would a standard docking ring (in FFS2) be able to handle the
strain of using the shuttle for 1 g manuvering of the entire ship ( I'm
pictureing a 400 std ship with a 90 std shuttle, by the rules this becomes a
300 +/- std main ship, the docking ring set up simulair to the 'Nova, nose
in at the stern of the main ship.) ?

Next, how would you all recommend sizing the shuttle drive to increase the
power to operate for both ships? I've checked the mass and displacement of a
standard M-drive for the main ship. Then increased the M-drive of the
shuttle to match, is this an acceptable way to do this or are there some
better ideas out there?

Third is control. I'm assuming that the shuttle computer can be slaved to
the main ship computer, which can then be used for control. Would this
require a pilot on board the shuttle? Also should the computers be "matched"
as far a size and capacity, or can the shuttle be a less sophisticated
model?

Well, thanks for any help you can give. I appriciate it!

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 12:23:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Rose Ketterling <rezznor@quad.quadrunner.com>
Subject: Re: Alien

On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Andrew Boulton wrote:

> In-Reply-To: <34810C8C.40319581@brokersys.com>
> 
> Kenneth,
> 
> > I'm seeing a strange dichotomy with this new Alien movie.  There are
> > those who think its a pretty good movie, and there are those who don't
> > like it at all.
> 
> It only opened here on Friday (I'm hoping to see it some time this 
> week), but this is the story I'm getting from reviewers here, too. 
> Everybody agrees it's not as good as the first two, but half the people 
> think it was a big improvement on 3, while the rest think it's the worst 
> yet.
> ______________________________________________________________________
> Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
>  "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
> 



I think it is the worst yet:


Don't read any further if you don't want the spoiler!!!!


























They introduced an element of the aliens being intelligent into the movie;
but other than the escape scene, they went right back to being dumb aliens
from the other 3 movies.


Ripley having alien blood in her was a cool idea and they used it here and
there; though I think they could have done MUCH more with it than they
did.


Introducing another android into the movie was lame, though I am sure that
some of the guys out there enjoyed winona ryder scenes =)


The plot simply wasn't there at all. There were far too many disjointed
"let's do this because we don't have the budget to make the plot flow"
scenes.


And finally,


How many times can 'kill the aliens in the ship' be run into the ground?




Rezz-

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 15:17:07 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

MULTIPLE TL's

The monolithic TL is a good way to approximate the tech level of a culture,
but it certainly isn't able to give a detailed picture of a society's
technology.  This ground has been worked already, but I'm investigating
breaking the TL down into functional areas.  It isn't possible to cover
*everything*, so I'm trying to keep these areas very broad, but focused on
the technologies we use in Traveller.  Here are the seven I'm considering:

 Materials 
 Gravitics
 Drives
 Power
 Electronics
 Medical
 Weapons
 
Am I leaving any major groupings out? 

Should they be organized differently?

TL VARIATIONS

1.  Generate a TL as normal.  This is the *approximate* level of
    technology in a culture, and how an outsider would rate it. 
    
2.  Modify the TL for each area.  This is this culture's detailed level
    of technology in that area. 
    
    a.  Roll (2d6-7)/10.  This will produce a normal distribution
        ranging from -0.5 to 0.5, with a 0 mean, and 0.1 steps.
        
    b.  Add the number to the General-TL.    
        
    c.  The GM can, of course, adjust the generated TL's as she sees
        fit.
        
[Example:  Malone has a General-TL of 10, and we want to find out exactly
what their Materials-TL is.  We roll (6-7)/10 and get -0.1, so Malone's
Materials-TL is 10 + (-0.1), or 9.9...

 General-TL                 10.0
 Materials-TL   (6-7)/10     9.9
 Gravitics-TL   (5-7)/10     9.8
 Drives-TL      (4-7)/10     9.7     (All actual rolls)
 Power-TL       (8-7)/10    10.1
 Electronics-TL (10-7)/10   10.3
 Medical-TL     (5-7)/10     9.8
 Weapons-TL     (12-7)/10   10.5
 
....So, Malone lags in several technical areas, but is pretty advanced in
Electronics and Weapons.  PC's wouldn't want to have their drives worked on
a Malone, but would probably get better (and lower priced) weaponry there.]

3.  Modify the TL for the Company actually doing the work. 

    a.  Roll (2d6-7)/10.  This will produce a normal distribution
        ranging from -0.5 to 0.5, with a 0 mean, and 0.1 steps.
        
    b.  Add this number to the detailed technology in question.
    
    c.  Again the GM can adjust results as she sees fit.
    
[Example:  Our PC's have landed on Malone and *have* to have their TL-10
drive repaired before they continue.  They find there are three companies
that work on drives:

 Zellers Motors         9.7 + (12-7)/10     10.2
 Hobert and Sons        9.7 + (4-7)/10       9.4
 MDRU, Corp             9.7 + (7-7)/10       9.7
 
Obviously, they would do better with Zellers Motors, but do they know that? 
The GM could let them discover it through roleplaying...or not.] 

I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to apply these ideas, but I wanted to
toss them out for examination.  A couple of ideas...

1.  The *cost* of a component varies by the detailed TL used to
    manufacture or service it.
    
    a.  If the TL used to work on a component (DTL) is above the
        available TL then cost is:
        
        Cost * (1 + (TL - DTL)*10)
        
    b.  If the TL used to work on a component (DTL) is lower than the
        available TL then cost is:
        
        Cost / (1+(DTL - TL)*10)
        
    c.  If the TL used (DTL) is equal to the available TL then cost is:
    
        Cost     
        
[Example:  Zellers Motors (DTL=10.2) is servicing a TL10 drive with a base
cost of 1000Cr. Their DTL is higher than the 10 needed so...
        
            Cost = 1000 / (1 + (10.2 - 10)*10) = 333cr
            
Hobert and Sons (DTL=9.4), doing the same job, has a DTL lower than 10
so...

            Cost = 1000 * (1 + (10 - 9.4)*10) = 7,000cr
            
That's a pretty big spread! ;->]

2.  The performance of components vary by the detailed TL used to build
    it.  This would allow for significant differences in performance
    between warships of cultures of nominally equal tech levels.  Say
    Boaz and Malone, both TL10, are at war.  Drive-TL is actually 10.2
    for Boaz and 9.7 for Malone...Boaz's ships should have an advantage
    with regards to drive performance/volume/cost.  Weapons-TL is 9.8
    for Boaz and 10.5 for Malone..Malone's weapons should have the
    advantage in performance.
    
    I'm a little unsure how to apply this one, but I like the concept.

What does everyone think? 
  
Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2134
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, December 1 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2135



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re:  Tech Levels
Re: Races.
Re: FFS2 Armour Choice
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Laser Rifles
Re:  Tech Levels
Re: FFS2 Armour Choice
Re: Alien and Races
Re: Sword Worlders
Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)
Re: EMail and me....
Dhu'ul Fiqar Assault Sled (TL 12)
re: FFS2 Armour Choice
re: Some Start Ship Design Questions
Re: Sword Worlders

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:27:53 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re:  Tech Levels

You might consider less functional groupings and more fundamental ones.
For example, rather than having both lasers and slugthrowers lumped under
"weapons", you could have "physics" or "optics" goeoverning lasers,
"metallurgy" or "machinery" governing slugthrowers, etc. You'd end up with
a more complex chart but with more realism. (For example, in the Real World,
we'll have TL-9 ETC weapons long before we have even TL-8 lasers...and we
certainly have TL-8 slug weapons now.)


Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 14:21:27 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Races.

MJ Dougherty wrote:

>Ahem. Races I don't identify with?
>Darrians (Snooty wimps! But at least the Star Trigger was cool. Can I get a
>pelvic-mounted version?)

Just think of the cheesy pickup lines that would make possible!  "Hey,
baby... what's a nice starlet like you doing in a place like this?  You
wanna come back to my place and go nova?"

I think an entire Traveller adventure could (and should) be built around
such an encounter.  In a Starport Bar(tm), of course.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 97 15:46:47 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: FFS2 Armour Choice

On 11/30/97 at 01:00 PM,  Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) said:

>Which would you folks prefer:

>a) select armour thickness

>b) select armour factor

Personally, I always pick the armor factor for ships, and calculate the
thickness from that.  OTOH, for recreating existing vehicles I'd want to
enter a thickness and have the AV calculated.

Of course, given either you can calculate the other. For your computer
program I'd like you to allow inputing ether Thickness or AV, and have the
program figure out the other.  That shouldn't be *too* hard. ;->


Eris,

ps. If I *have* to pick, I'd vote for AV...but I hope I don't have to pick.
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:52:21 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

	Andrew Moffat-Vallance stirred up the following kettle of fish:

>
>Fun for all the family, just assign a traveller race to well known TML
>personalities
>
>Please fill in the following form and add names as you see fit. Anybody
>you don't recognise just leave blank.
>
>Dave Golden: Generic Human Imperial
>Harold Hale: Either Solomani or Aslan.
>The Berry Bro.: Doug Vargr.  Def.  Craig is hard to classify.  Therefore a
>Templar.
>Suzette Dollar: Bwap.
>Kenji Schwartz: Hiver.
>Hans Rancke: Vilani.
>Jeff Zeitlin: AAB librarian.
>Bill Prankard: Vargr.
>Rob Prior: Too technically advanced to be anything but Darrian.
>Andrew Boulton: Vilani.
>Leonard Erickson: I'll go with Doug: Droyne Technician fits.
>Eris the Heretic: Q.
>Andrew Moffatt-Vallance: Hiver... just what is he try to pull here?  Hmmm..:)


	And let's not forget:

Glenn Grant:
Bruce Johnson:
K.C. Komosky: K'kree... after all, he is a Reformer... welcome back :).
Bruce Alan Macintosh:
Leroy Guatney:

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:49:50 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Laser Rifles

Ken Morefield wrote:

>   Greetings all!  I caught the end part of a discussion about LABRYS.
>Someone wrote that it was a TL-12 laser rifle.  I was wondering if anyone
>could E-mail me the stats for it and/or a BMP or GIF of what it looks like.
>My address is Dralasite@aol.com.

When I get the design finished I'll mail it to you; it'll also go up on the
supplementary Sayat website,
www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/sayat.html.

>   I'm currently running a campaign where most of the party are armed
>with projectile weapons(auto pistols, advanced combat rifles), except
>two marine officers have 4cm chemical cartridge laser rifles.  I want to
>introduce some more energy weapons to them(via exploring new star
>systems), but I'm unsure which ones I want to use.  At what tech level
>did chemical lasers start? TL-13 or sooner?  When did they develop
>weapons with self contained power units as opposed to wearing bulky
>units on their backs?

I think Doug Berry already answered this, but it does seem that you can
build lower-tech but self-contained direct energy input lasers.  They've
got enough oomph for torching butterflies, which admittedly limits their
usefulness in conventional military applications.

Hm.  I'll run one up tomorrow if I get a chance.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html>

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 19:17:27 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re:  Tech Levels

At 02:27 PM 11/30/97 -0800, you wrote:
>
>
>You might consider less functional groupings and more fundamental ones.
>For example, rather than having both lasers and slugthrowers lumped under
>"weapons", you could have "physics" or "optics" goeoverning lasers,
>"metallurgy" or "machinery" governing slugthrowers, etc. You'd end up with
>a more complex chart but with more realism. (For example, in the Real World,
>we'll have TL-9 ETC weapons long before we have even TL-8 lasers...and we
>certainly have TL-8 slug weapons now.)

Also in the CPR Tech levels would be the Binary Propellant and Liquid
Propellant weapons advantage over ETC no casing to eject. Liquid Propellant
and ETC both use and electrical charge, but the Liquid use a lesser amount
of electrical energy input. Both Binary and Liquid propellants have greatly
reduced recoil and muzzle flash signatures.
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 17:42:39 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: FFS2 Armour Choice

Rob:

>Which would you folks prefer:
>
>a) select armour thickness
>
>b) select armour factor

Regrettably, I have three measures I use, depending on task.

1.  AV, for when I want the ship to stop a specific weapon.  This is likely
the most common.

2.  Thickness, for when I have decided that this ship has armor "that
thick"  This is what I use the least.

3.  Percentage of volume.  This I use a lot in my concept craft.  For
example - I am designing a 90kt Shield class battleship, which is round,
and a 90kt Lance class battleship, which is pointy.  The one is designed to
flatten targets at long range, and the other at short.  Once I fill the box
with other systems, I know the remaining space available to apportion among
weapons, sensors, and armor, and being able to just say 10% of the ship
goes to armor, 10% to weapons, and 10% to point defense weapons, sensors,
controls, and so on, would make the early phases easier.

To wit: the Shield class currently has an armor rating of 6000, which
requires 300 cm. of superdense armor, and thus it takes roughly 10% of the
hull, more or less.  When I first laid it out, I figured out that I had
roughly 10% of my internal volume free, and it would have been nice to just
type that number in, and let it become the appropriate armor value as the
size of the ship changed.

>(I'm tinkering with FFS2, and want to avoid too many complications and
>rewrites.)

One request - besides letting me see a copy some time, would be conversions
in dialogs.  For example, in the above system, if I click "By volume", type
10% in, and then click "by rating", it would be really nice of the entry
field got the value "3000" instead of "0.1"

Take it or leave it as you wish, of course.

Scott

- -------
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu.  http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz/
"You die, she dies, EVERYbody dies" - Heavy Metal
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment results" -
Calvin Coolidge, attrib. by Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:58:07 -0500 (EST)
From: Dralasite@aol.com
Subject: Re: Alien and Races

   Greetings again!  I found that my biggest gripe with the new Alien movie
was how Quick the military abandoned ship.  Surely with their advanced
technology and higher numbers the could have taken the aliens.  The
general(if he lived) would have been court martialed for abandoning a star
- -ship the size of that one.
    Also I loved seeing Winona in it.  It was weird to hear her curse.  I
hope
that she's in the next one.
    Currently I'm playing in a Traveller based game in which the known major
races are at war with an intelligent version of the aliens.  Ones capable of 
building and flying starships.  They also have laser tips on their claws.
                          See Ya,
                                 Ken
(By the way my races are Vargr:40%, Aslan:40%, Droyne:10%, Vilani:8%,
  and Ithklar:2%)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 20:27:30 -0900
From: Peter Newman <pnewman@alaska.net>
Subject: Re: Sword Worlders

"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote

> At 04:06 PM 11/29/97 -0600, you wrote:
> >Quoth Douglas E. Berry:
> >> The Sword Worlders are the main villians in my current game.  Done
> >> correctly, they are scarier than the Zhodani.
> >
> >How would that be?  Story, story!  :-)
> 
> My current campaign is about half-way through 1106.  The Zhodani are
> starting to gear up for the Fifth War of Containment.  The SWC is hoping
> for a massive land grab.
> 
> My model for the Sword Worlds is Israel in the 1950s.  They are tiny,
> surrounded by states that either hate them or could crush them without a
> second thought, and have a strong cultural identity.  They have a strong
> sense of manifest destiny.  They truly believe that the ends justify the
> means.
> 
> The Confederation's Bureau of Information Management is coordinating piracy
> in the Lunion, Glisten, and D-268 subsectors in an effort to force the
> Imperial navy to waste time and energy chasing down privateers (see?
> SOMEBODY read all those pirate threads!).
> 
> The BIM is the worst aspects of the Stasi, KGB, and Mossad rolled into one.
>  They think anyone who isn't a Sword Worlder is untermenschen, deserving
> only to serve the chosen people.
> 
> I'll admit that I've added a bit of Christian Identity to the mix, but
> these guys are fanatics, blinded to the reality of what they are doing.

This sounds _great_ for story purposes but given the lower population
and Tech Levels how can the Sword Worlds be a serious threat to the
sector (much less to the Imperium) ?

The fact that that they "have a strong cultural identity.  They have a
strong sense of manifest destiny." may help to explain why they are
trying this but does not explain why they would have a chance of
success.  Israel in the 50's was outnumbered but it had IMHO a higher
military tech level than its neighbors, or at least it had equipment of
(possibly fractionally) higher tech level that it had received from the
USA.  Do you have the Zhodhani funneling arms into the Sword Worlds ?
Given that the counselate is TL 14 and has TL 13 reserve forces (source
5thFW) it seems unlikely that it could/would be giving arms transfers of
better than TL 12-13.  This is a step up from the Sword Worlds native
military tech level of 10 - 12, but is it enough improvement to threaten
the area ?

On the other hand the neighboring subsectors are pretty weak & low tech.
If the Imperium is more worried about the Zhodani and has most of its
military forces farher coreward than the area the Sword Worlds just
might be able to step on their neighboring subsectors (see data below -
Sup 3 Spinward Marches & The Regency SB).

Important (Population 8+, TL 10+) Sword Worlds (J) Subsector Worlds

Name            Population      Tech    Bases   Charecteristics
                (Millions)      Level

Tizon           300             10      M
Narsil          20,000          10      M       Industrial
Anduril         200             11      M
Gram            6,000           12      M       Industrial, Capital
Sacnoth         8,000           12      M       Industrial
Sting           300             10      M

It looks as if the Sword Worlds have 14 billion (1x10^9) people at TL
12, 200 million at TL 11, and 20.6 billion at TL 10.  All their
important planets have military bases.

                        
Important (Population 8+, TL 10+) Worlds in Villis (N) Subsector Worlds


Name            Population      Tech    Bases   Charecteristics
                (Millions)      Level

Garda-Villis    900             10      S       owned by Villis,
                                                hates Villis
Villis          8,000           10              Industrial

The Villis Subsector has 8.9 billion people at Tl 10.  The planet Villis
uses much of its miltary strength to hold down Garda-Villis, leaving
less available for other needs.


Important (Population 8+, TL 10+) Worlds in  Darrian (I) Subsector
Worlds

Name            Population      Tech    Bases   Charecteristics
                (Millions)      Level

Garoo           200             10              independant 
Nonym           600             10      M       independant, Poor
Zamine          2,000           10              Industrial
Mire            10,000          11      M       Capital
Darrian         2,000           16              
(this is a relic TL actual current military TL is more like TL 13  & Tl
15 for ships - AM8
Darrians pg 17)

The Darrian Confederation has 2 billion people (on Darrian) with a
military TL of about 13, a ship building TL of 15, and some relic
technology of TL 16.  It has 10 billion people at TL 11 and 2 billion
people at TL 10.The independant worlds have .8 billion people at TL 10.


Important (Population 8+, TL 10+) Worlds in  Lunion (K) Subsector Worlds

Name            Population      Tech    Bases   Charecteristics
                (Millions)      Level

Adabicci        800             11      N
Lunion          8,000           13      S,N     Industrial, Capital
Persephone      900             10      W
Strouden        9,000           13      N       Industrial      

Lunion Subsector has 17 billion people at TL 13 (with Naval bases). It
also has 0.8 billion people at TL 11 and 0.9 billion people at TL 10.


Important (Population 8+, TL 10+) Worlds in District 268 (N) Subsector

Name            Population      Tech    Bases   Charecteristics
                (Millions)      Level

Collace         1,000           13              Industrial
Trexalon        900             12              Rich
Forine          6,000           10              Industrial

District 268 has 1 billon people at TL 13, 0.9 billion at TL 12 and 6
billion at Tl 10.  District 268 is not formally part of the Imperium but
it is under Imperial "protection" (i.e. control)

It sure looks as if the Sword Worlds are a more than a match for Villis
Subsector or District 268 (or both).  They might be able to handle the
Darrians (if not for the Darrians higher technology).  They might be
able to handle Lunion subsectors forces.  The Imperium, or even the
Domain should be able to squash them like a bug.

If we assume Imperial Military assets within the Marches are deployed
primarily in response to the Zhodani threat with the Sword Worlds being
considered a secondary, or tertiary problem for local forces they might
well be able to do quite well until the Imperium could spare & bring in
reinforcements.  This is all that is needed for them to be perceived as
a threat.  Doug seems to have a plausible threat here.

I had always dismissed the Sword Worlds as a joke until I just did this
miltary analysis.

Comments ?

PS - Re: Races of the TML - I am a genius psionic Roth Thokken Vargr
whose TL 16 cyberwear implant computer is infected with Virus.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:45:06 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

At 03:17 pm 11/30/97 -0600, you wrote:
>MULTIPLE TL's
>
>The monolithic TL is a good way to approximate the tech level of a culture,
>but it certainly isn't able to give a detailed picture of a society's
>technology.  This ground has been worked already, but I'm investigating
>breaking the TL down into functional areas.  It isn't possible to cover
>*everything*, so I'm trying to keep these areas very broad, but focused on
>the technologies we use in Traveller.  Here are the seven I'm considering:
>
> Materials 
> Gravitics
> Drives
> Power
> Electronics
> Medical
> Weapons
>
>Am I leaving any major groupings out? 
>
>Should they be organized differently?
>

	From my favoritest MT supplement:

	High Common
	Low Common

	Energy
	Computers/Robotics
	Communications
	Medical
	Environment

	Land Transport
	Water Transport
	Air Transport
	Space Transport

	Personal Military
	High Military

	Novelty

	Note: Once grav technology arrives, land, water and air
transport merge. As grav technology improves, they also merge
into space transport.


>TL VARIATIONS

	Basic Sequence, per WBH:
>
>1.  Generate a TL as normal.  This is the *approximate* level of
>    technology in a culture, and how an outsider would rate it. 

	This would be High Common--the world's UWP TL

	Low Common lower limit is HC/2, upper limit is HC. LC=
Population TL Modifier (+1 for pop 5-, -1 for pop 9+),plus Global
Expansiveness modifier (i.e. monolithic, discordant, or
fragmented), plus a 2D table-based TL modifier

	Energy TL is High Common plus a 2D random table-based modifier.

	etc., etc.  It's set up so there is some common link between
different TLs, to keep from getting completely random and
unbelievable difference, but still provide interesting variety.
And no, High Common is *not* the ceiling for all the different
categories ...

	If you'd like more details, I can provide them ...



- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 22:19:09 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: EMail and me....

At 09:10 PM 11/29/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Hi everyone. My Email software got cabbaged a while ago. The fix lost me
>all the saved messages and my address book contents. Could I ask the people
>who've been talking to me privately to recontact me please? I've revovered
>some addresses but most are truly gone....
>
>Sorry about that.
>MJD.
>
>

I think we were discussing my play by email game.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:07:56 -0800
From: Eric Evans <ebevans@fas.harvard.edu>
Subject: Dhu'ul Fiqar Assault Sled (TL 12)

I thought I'd try my hand at CSC; I've always wondered why designers put
turrets on grav tanks. Here's my attempt at an assault gun.

Dhu'ul Fiqar Assault Sled (TL12)
Designed by Eric Evans

Summary:
3.50 displacement ton wedge streamlined;  112 tonnes;  MCr 42.9

Chassis:
49.0 kL wedge streamlined (11 m long x 4.5 m wide x 2.9 m high)

Structure: 2.65 tonnes of superdense, rated for 2.0Gs, body 1.0 cm thick,
sealed to 10 atmArmour: 21 front (7.0 cm), 21 sides (7.0 cm), 21 rear (7.0
cm), 21 top (7.0 cm), 18 bottom (5.0 cm);  Stealth Structure: -3DM against
TL12- military and TL13- civilian sensors

Performance:
10.7 MW TL12 Fusion Plus power plant;  Fuel: 66.9 L of enriched water (66.9
kg), 20 hours supply

Propulsion System: 9.00 MW contragrav with 6 minutes emergency power;
Maximum Speed: 814 km/h; Range: 16218 km;  Agility: -8DM (11.3G)

Crew:
Crew roster: pilot, Commander, Gunner;  3 crew stations (0.50 cm of
Crystaliron armour, rating 7)Basic life support, water and waste handling;
Hatches: 2 power; Grav Compensation (2G), Only seating compensated

Armament:
Weapon                   Damage      Range       Shots Reloads Notes
Plasma Cannon, Medium-12 50 (12 exp) Subregional       40      +3DM, coaxial
Machinegun, RF-11        9           Long        3000  200     +3DM, remote

                                                               turret
Missile, Light-11        26 (16 exp) Long        1     8       +3DM, remote
Laser, RF PD-12          3           Short                     +3DM, remote
                                                               hardpoint

Communications:
Continental Radio (100 kW, TL12, SmVcl, MilSpec, DirAnt, DirFnd)
Orbital Maser (1.00 MW, TL12, SmVcl, MilSpec)
Subcontinental Jammer (10.00 kW, TL12, SmVcl, MilSpec)

Sensors:
Active Continental Gravitic (100 kW, MilSpec, DispArray)  Resolution: 2.0
cm per km of range
Active Subcontinental Jammer (10.00 kW, MilSpec, DispArray)  Resolution:
0.050 mm per km of range
Active Regional Optical (1.00 kW, MilSpec, DispArray)  Resolution: 0.020 mm
per km of range
Active Regional Lidar (1.00 kW, MilSpec, DispArray)  Resolution: 0.020 mm
per km of range

Other:
Options: kitchen for 1 simultaneous meal
Safety Features: fire suppression system
4.00 kL of cargo space; SmartCoat display on all unused surface area

The Dhu'ul Fiqar Assault Sled is a grav tank destroyer and direct fire
artillery platform for the Government of God, a major pocket empire in
Subsector B of The Old Expanses. The Dhu'ul Fiqar is too expensive to
deploy as a standard grav tank and is generally deployed several tens of
kilometers behind the forward edge of the battle area. Dhu'ul Fiqars are
organized into batteries of four and despite their enormous speed generally
operate close to the ground. When operating in a grav tank destroyer role,
they will indentify a grav tank target at Subregional range using their
Gravitic sensors, pop up to effective firing altitude and blanket the
target area with plasma bolts before returning to NOE operation. Their
extreme agility allows them to pop up extremely rapidly. When operating as
direct fire artillery, the Dhu'ul Fiqars engage targets designated by other
units in a roughly similar manner.

The Dhu'ul Fiqar is laid out as a compact wedge, with its Plasma Cannon
along its midline. The pilot sits to the right of the cannon, while the
gunner and commander share a "cockpit" (which includes the turret-mounted
Machinegun) on the left side. The design team for the Dhu'ul Fiqar
considered mounting the main armament in a turret, but rejected the notion
in favor of embedding the plasma cannon in the hull. The Dhu'ul Fiqar's
agility enables it to engage targets as rapidly as more conventional grav
tanks.

Designed with CSC (software =A9 Robert Prior, 1997)



- -----------------------------------------
Eric Evans

"There seemed an
                 inevitability in
          degradation"
			  --T.E. Lawrence

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:18:05 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: FFS2 Armour Choice

Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior) wrote:

>Which would you folks prefer:
>a) select armour thickness
>b) select armour factor

>(I'm tinkering with FFS2, and want to avoid too many complications and
>rewrites.)

Select thickness for vehicles (then you can use real world figures and play
with the results).

Select factor for starships (much bigger scale and not much in the way of
real world comparison to go by)

That doesn't make it any easier, does it?

Rob, could you put in two entries in the dialogue box? One to allow
thickness to be entered, and the other to allow factor. Only allow one or
the other, and the entry of one calculates the other...

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 23:25:14 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Some Start Ship Design Questions

 "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com> wrote:

>Next, how would you all recommend sizing the shuttle drive to increase the
>power to operate for both ships? I've checked the mass and displacement of a
>standard M-drive for the main ship. Then increased the M-drive of the
>shuttle to match, is this an acceptable way to do this or are there some
>better ideas out there?

The Gazelle was designed this way in High Guard. I'm not sure how the
modular clippers in TNE work, but I would assume that the acceleration
would be higher with no modules installed.

>Third is control. I'm assuming that the shuttle computer can be slaved to
>the main ship computer, which can then be used for control. Would this
>require a pilot on board the shuttle? Also should the computers be "matched"
>as far a size and capacity, or can the shuttle be a less sophisticated
>model?

I suppose it really depends on the jump performance - if the shuttle comp
exceeds the performance needed for jump, I would leave it. I've vague
recollections that the computer size and rating used to represent three
identical units for redundancy and back up. If this is so you could assume
that the shuttle contains 1 of these units, and interfaces with the other
two when it docks(*).

>Well, thanks for any help you can give. I appriciate it!

I doubt this help will be as much help as some of our gearhead friends...

(*) Can you say Marathon? Or Durandal?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 30 Nov 1997 15:36:15 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Sword Worlders

>> >> The Sword Worlders are the main villians in my current game.  Done
>> >> correctly, they are scarier than the Zhodani.
>> >
>> >How would that be?  Story, story!  :-)
>> 
>> My current campaign is about half-way through 1106.  The Zhodani are
>> starting to gear up for the Fifth War of Containment.  The SWC is hoping
>> for a massive land grab.
>> 
>> My model for the Sword Worlds is Israel in the 1950s.  They are tiny,
>> surrounded by states that either hate them or could crush them without a
>> second thought, and have a strong cultural identity.  They have a strong
>> sense of manifest destiny.  They truly believe that the ends justify the
>> means.
>> 
>> The Confederation's Bureau of Information Management is coordinating piracy
>> in the Lunion, Glisten, and D-268 subsectors in an effort to force the
>> Imperial navy to waste time and energy chasing down privateers (see?
>> SOMEBODY read all those pirate threads!).
>> 
>> The BIM is the worst aspects of the Stasi, KGB, and Mossad rolled into one.
>>  They think anyone who isn't a Sword Worlder is untermenschen, deserving
>> only to serve the chosen people.
>> 
>> I'll admit that I've added a bit of Christian Identity to the mix, but
>> these guys are fanatics, blinded to the reality of what they are doing.
>
>This sounds _great_ for story purposes but given the lower population
>and Tech Levels how can the Sword Worlds be a serious threat to the
>sector (much less to the Imperium) ?
>
>The fact that that they "have a strong cultural identity.  They have a
>strong sense of manifest destiny." may help to explain why they are
>trying this but does not explain why they would have a chance of
>success.  Israel in the 50's was outnumbered but it had IMHO a higher
>military tech level than its neighbors, or at least it had equipment of
>(possibly fractionally) higher tech level that it had received from the
>USA.  

The U.S. gave very little in the way actual hardware to Israel before the
early 50's, and yet Israel still beat a much larger British-trained Arab
legion, armed with then-modern weapons and armored vehicles.  They were
more motivated and better lead.  Leadership and supply are the keys, here.

Do you have the Zhodhani funneling arms into the Sword Worlds ?
>Given that the counselate is TL 14 and has TL 13 reserve forces (source
>5thFW) it seems unlikely that it could/would be giving arms transfers of
>better than TL 12-13.  This is a step up from the Sword Worlds native
>military tech level of 10 - 12, but is it enough improvement to threaten
>the area ?

If the model is Israel again, when the U.S. -did- begin to funnel weapons,
it funneled at least some front-line weaponry, partly because it had
liquidated its war stocks and partly because it wanted to test the new
systems in combat.

>On the other hand the neighboring subsectors are pretty weak & low tech.
>If the Imperium is more worried about the Zhodani and has most of its
>military forces farher coreward than the area the Sword Worlds just
>might be able to step on their neighboring subsectors (see data below -
>Sup 3 Spinward Marches & The Regency SB).

[Interesting analysis snipped]


>It sure looks as if the Sword Worlds are a more than a match for Villis
>Subsector or District 268 (or both).  They might be able to handle the
>Darrians (if not for the Darrians higher technology).  They might be
>able to handle Lunion subsectors forces.  The Imperium, or even the
>Domain should be able to squash them like a bug.

Yes.  But the consequences of doing so could be too costly.  It could start
an interstellar war.  Better to use the small fry as proxy combatants.  

Scott

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2135
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, December 1 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2136



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Deckplans / exploratory station
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)
I need a plot device...
Re: FFS2 Armour Choice
Re: Races of the TML
Re: (Marc) Milieu 0 Campaign (Review)
Re: Alien
Re: Races of the TML
Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)
The Latter Days of the Rule of Man (long)
Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)
Re: Sword Worlders
Re: I need a plot device...
RE: Insurance rates & Al Morai

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:15:22 +0100
From: "Sebastian Davids" <Dragonfly@flensburg.netsurf.de>
Subject: Deckplans / exploratory station

Hi y'all,

where could I find deckplans for the following spacecraft & modules:
- - Aurora-Class Clipper, RCEG, p. 131
- - Manta-Class Fueler, RCEG, p. 130
- - Maggart-Class Clipper, RCEG, pp.136 & 137
- - the various 'clipper modules', RCEG, pp. 132-5
- - the various cutter modules, especially the 'station modules', RCEG, pp.
143-5

Also, I want my characters to establish a small exploratory station/outpost
.... does anybody have information/deckplans/advice in coordinating this
endeavor (RPG-wise)?

I figure something like various cutter station modules attached to each
other or something along our _real world_ arctic research stations ... any
other ideas/suggestions/sites to look at etc.?

TIA,
  Sebastian Davids

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:24:28 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

On Sat, 29 Nov 1997, Douglas E. Berry wrote:

> The K'kree make a great menace.  They are ruthless, powerful, and feel th=
at
> it is a good thing to kill every meat-eater in the galaxy.  I ran a MT ga=
me
> set in the Gateway Sector that made the PCs very afraid of those oversize=
d
> ships.

I suppose if the two thousand worlds would not be that far away from the=20
edge of the Imperium, there had been a Frontier War that made the ones=20
against the Zhos nothing interesting for anyone. I mean - Humans and=20
militaristic vegetarians ... I am still afraid of getting a Centaur into=20
my Campaign!

> The Sword Worlders are the main villians in my current game.  Done
> correctly, they are scarier than the Zhodani.

Can you tell me how? That could make things easier for the Zho agent in=20
my players=B4 group.

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:45:58 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> MULTIPLE TL's
>=20
> The monolithic TL is a good way to approximate the tech level of a cultur=
e,
> but it certainly isn't able to give a detailed picture of a society's
> technology.  This ground has been worked already, but I'm investigating
> breaking the TL down into functional areas.  It isn't possible to cover
> *everything*, so I'm trying to keep these areas very broad, but focused o=
n
> the technologies we use in Traveller.  Here are the seven I'm considering=
:
>=20
>  Materials=20
>  Gravitics
>  Drives
>  Power
>  Electronics
>  Medical
>  Weapons
> =20
> Am I leaving any major groupings out?=20
>=20
> Should they be organized differently?
>=20
[snippedisnap]
>=20
> What does everyone think?=20
>  =20
This reminds me of the Technology Chart in MegaTraveller: Referee=B4s Compa=
nion

This one was seperated in, IIRC:

Personal/Military Weaponry (From Clubs over Blackpowder to Plasma Cannons)
Computer (Mathematics, Abacus, Relais Computer, Superconductors ...)
Communications (Telephone, TV, Holovideo ...)
Environment (Shacks, Cities, Weather Control)
Medicals (From crude surgery to Anagathics)
Transportation Land/Water/Air/Space (Wheels, Planes, Gravitics, Jump Drives=
)
Energy/Power Production (Fire, Coal, Wind, Solar, Atom, Fusion, Fusion+)

The Tech Levels shown on that chart went up to 18. I liked this one.
Gravitics should not be an own column, as it is a late tech and there are=
=20
alternatives before.

There was only one Column missing (but I understand why):

Psionics: from a mythological view of the universe over witchcraft to a=20
scientific theory of Psi.=20


Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 11:48:04 -0000
From: "Justin Durkan" <jdurkan@iol.ie>
Subject: I need a plot device...

Hi Folks,

Got a little problem with my players. They're Munchkins. I'm running foul of
a group of players whose first choice of equipment is PGMP or FPMG. They
always go for the big hit at the expense of everything else. I've introduced
various non-combative plot seeds but they players wither ignore these, or
feel the scenario was a bore.

What I'm looking for is a little twist in the tale to a hack and slay type
scenario. Something that leaves the palyers satisfied with having killed
something but adds a non-combative pull/push/enigma etc. that might appeal
to munchkins.

I'm basically trying to ween the players away from the kill-em, rob-em, next
victim mentality. Basic D&D (way way back in the mists of time) has a lot to
answer for.

/Justin Durkan

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:15:48 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: FFS2 Armour Choice

>Which would you folks prefer:
>
>a) select armour thickness
>
>b) select armour factor
>

My choice: a) select armour thickness
As there shure will be various combat systems to convert real world data
to/from the factor is easier to use (1 cm will be 1 cm across T4 editions
right? ;)


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 00:09:29 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

In mail you write:

>>Leonard Erickson: Droyne Technician

I think my ilustrious ancestor wishs to have a few words with you... :-)

(Sheesh! You could have at least made me one of Yaskodray's
grandchildren! :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:27:54 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: (Marc) Milieu 0 Campaign (Review)

CardSharks@aol.com wrote:
> 
> In a message dated 97-09-25 22:22:34 EDT, you write:
> 
> <<
>  How about it Marc?  Will you take care of your customers who rushed out
>  and bought first printings of FS and M0?
> 
>   >>
> Sure. Why not post them here on the list?
> 
> Marc

This was posted some months ago now...
Please, could someone who bought the M:0 Campaign book now post the
additional material to the list?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 07:51:29 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Alien

Haven't seen the latest one yet, but I'll stick my 0.02 cr in
here...

Alien...really, REALLY scary horror flick about a monster 8under the
bed...errr..in the airvents.

Aliens...really, REALLY good action flick, that somewhat coincidentally
had the same monster and hero.

Alien3...tried to be both, and so, failed, IMHO. The two kinds of movie
are hard to do at once. It turned out to be neither for me, but seemed
very formulaic. 

From all I've heard, the fourth is more akin to Aliens than Alien, which
is fine by me.The sheer spookiness of Alien would be impossible to
reproduce, we all know too much now. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 07:04:00 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

As far as races go, I'd say

Sworld World 60%
Zhodane      40%

Greg


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 09:55:29 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

Eris wrote:

> MULTIPLE TL's

Ye gads, like the creature that would not die, the 
"TL" of legend shambled out of what everyone thought 
was its grave...

>  Materials 
>  Gravitics
>  Drives
>  Power
>  Electronics
>  Medical
>  Weapons
>  
> Am I leaving any major groupings out? 

Maybe.

> Should they be organized differently?

Maybe.

Weapons for example - someone else pointed this out. One TL for
slug throwers, lasers, plasma weapons, sonic weapons, melee
weapons, etc? 

Also, does electronics == computers? My ability to make really
small radios has no direct relation to whether or not I can
make Quake.

In a lot of cases, things will end up falling into multiple
categories. Which may or may not be what you want.

> TL VARIATIONS
> 
> [Example:  Malone has a General-TL of 10, and we want to find out exactly
> what their Materials-TL is.  We roll (6-7)/10 and get -0.1, so Malone's
> Materials-TL is 10 + (-0.1), or 9.9...

9.9?? How is 9.9 any different from 10? Can 9.9 build really awesome TL
9 stuff but not TL 10? Or can it build crappy TL 10 stuff? At what point
do TL 10 items become available - TL 9.1? TL 10.0?

> ...So, Malone lags in several technical areas, but is pretty advanced in
> Electronics and Weapons.  PC's wouldn't want to have their drives worked on
> a Malone, but would probably get better (and lower priced) weaponry there.]

You'd probably see a +/-0.5 variation in TL just across different
companies
on a certain world. Rating a whole world to within 0.1 TLs seems to be
"measuring below the noise threshold" (for lack of a better
description).

> 3.  Modify the TL for the Company actually doing the work. 
> 
>     a.  Roll (2d6-7)/10.  This will produce a normal distribution
>         ranging from -0.5 to 0.5, with a 0 mean, and 0.1 steps.

I swear, I was reading your message in detail as I replied to it and
I didn't even know this was here when I wrote my last sentance above...
wierd. Anyway, fractional TL ratings would probably be the kind of 
thing that isn't present as a in-the-game-world item (which regular
TL is, somewhat debatably), so (IMO) players shouldn't be able to
go to the yellow pages and say "We want to find the company with the
highest fractional TL".

> I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to apply these ideas, but I wanted to
> toss them out for examination.  A couple of ideas...
> 
> 1.  The *cost* of a component varies by the detailed TL used to
>     manufacture or service it.
> 
> 2.  The performance of components vary by the detailed TL used to build
>     it.  

What's that old engineer's joke? "Low Cost, Easy to use, High
Performance 
- - pick any two." So, presumably, you left out ease of use as a third
thing 
that could improve. Of course, there is a lot of variation at a given
TL,
as the trade-offs will be different depending on where you are. For
example,
Vilani items are often engineered for complete ease of use, while
Solomani
ones are often built for performance.

> What does everyone think? 

Interesting. Although it may be of marginal use unless your players'
characters spend a lot time (in-game) reading "Consumers Reports" and
such. 

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:31:36 +0800
From: "Michael Bailey" <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au>
Subject: The Latter Days of the Rule of Man (long)

Working on the history of the Rim for M:0...any comments or corrections?



After a century of growth and prosperity, the Rule of Man began to founder.
The old Vilani customs had been swept away, but with nothing to replace them
the result was more often than not chaotic.  Industrial production dropped,
unemployment rose, and populations rose up in rebellion against their old
leaders.
Stability was also hindered by the fact that there was no established rule
of succession for Emperors.  An aspiring Emperor had to win the support of
the Council of Noble Officers, of which he or she was normally, but not
always, a part.  At the death of an Emperor, the Council members began
jockeying for position, calling in favours or using their influence to gain
a majority.  While these struggles were initially political, By 2000 they
had become increasingly ruthless and violent in nature.  Claimants began
building regional power bases as succession struggles began to be marked by
open warfare.  At first restricted to small scale actions and occasional
commerce raids on opposing corporate forces, they became more intense with
each succession crisis.
When Empress Juliana died in 1926, the Council of Noble Officers was split
into a half dozen rival factions, each with their own candidate.  Drawing on
their regional bases, they fought a series of increasingly large battles to
eliminate their rivals.  The fighting resulted in severe disruption of
interstellar trade and commerce, and contributed to the further decline of
the Second Imperium.
Admiral Paskevi defeated his last rival, Admiral Irina Yakovlev at the
Battle of Shantai in 1921.  Ascending the throne as Hiroshi V, ruled an
empire that was increasingly ungovernable.  The struggle for the throne had
encouraged regionalism at the expense of the Empire as a whole.  Individual
worlds became less and less concerned with their neighbors as the lingering
economic stagnation deepened into depression.  In response to this, Hiroshi
V enacted a series of reforms in -1915 aimed at revitalizing the Rule of
Man.  The last vestiges of the old Vilani caste system were swept away as he
outlawed bonded labour.  Recognising that central government from Hub/Ershur
was no longer possible, the government was decentralized.  Regional groups,
now known as provinces, were given considerable autonomy.  Finally, size
of the Imperial Navy was drasticly reduced, in an attempt to reduce the
power of the Fleet Admirals.  The provinces were allowed to field their own
naval forces, which were often transferred directly from the central navy.
Four provinces were recognized in the Solomani Rim:  Dingir, Vega , Terra
and Easter.  The Terran Mercantile Community, long at loggerheads with the
central authorities over its quasi-military merchant escorts, was now
able to openly field its own naval forces.

Twilight and the Rise of the Successor States

Hiroshi Vs reforms did little to slow the decay of the Rule of Man.  The
central authorities now had even less power to deal with regional dissent,
and the provinces payed less and less attention to directives from
Hub/Ershur. By 1880, large parts of the Rule of Man were disintegrating
into warring factions.  Without any clear succession procedure, pitched
battles for the throne became commonplace throughout the Empire.  Following
the death of Manuel III at the Battle of Esegarde in 1877, no claimant was
able to control more than a small part of the Rule of Man.  As conflict
became endemic, interstellar trade slowed and the economies of many worlds
were ruined.
The final destruction of the old Vilani caste system, hailed by Hiroshi V
and his supporters as a triumph for sentient rights, was the final nail in
the Rule of Mans coffin.  Within a generation of the reforms, industrial
production had plummeted, particularly in the areas that had held to the
Vilani culture the hardest.  Unemployment soared, leading to domestic
unrest, violence and revolution.  This drove production down still further,
fuelling a vicious circle of economic nd social collapse.
By 1860, the Solomani Rim was effectively cut off from the central Empire.
The systems of the sector strengthened their regional ties, and attempted to
shield their economies from the worst of the collapse.  The Terran
Mercantile Community quietly declared its independence from the Rule of Man
in -1803.  The other regional groups in the Rim soon followed, and continued
to chart their own course.  While historians date the official collapse of
the Rule of Man at 1776, this date holds little significance in the
Solomani Rim.  Here, the Empire had for all intents and purposes ceased to
exist almost a century beforehand.  In its place rose the fivce roughly
subsector-sized political units known locally as the Successor States.
While most of the Solomani Rim enjoyed peace, conflicts and struggles over
the remains of the Rule of Man did spill over into the sectors coreward
regions.  The worlds of the Easter Concord were the most affected, but
by 1700 had secured their defenses (see The Easter Concord).  A mood of
isolationism settled over the Rim, resulting in a gradual drop in
interstellar trade even within the individual Successor States.


Thanx,

Michael Bailey
mickb@opera.iinet.net.au

pillock-at-large and proud supporter of the Chelsea FC and Fremantle AFL
Clubs!

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:16:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Eris Reddoch wrote:

> MULTIPLE TL's
> 
> The monolithic TL is a good way to approximate the tech level of a culture,
> but it certainly isn't able to give a detailed picture of a society's
> technology.
>     
> 2.  Modify the TL for each area.  This is this culture's detailed level
>     of technology in that area. 

I think that you should generate at least a +1/-1 TL, if you're going to
do that, as fractional TL's get pretty unwieieldy. 

> 
> 3.  Modify the TL for the Company actually doing the work. 
>     
> [Example:  Our PC's have landed on Malone and *have* to have their TL-10
> drive repaired before they continue.  They find there are three companies
> that work on drives:
> 
>  Zellers Motors         9.7 + (12-7)/10     10.2
>  Hobert and Sons        9.7 + (4-7)/10       9.4
>  MDRU, Corp             9.7 + (7-7)/10       9.7
>  
> Obviously, they would do better with Zellers Motors, but do they know that? 
> The GM could let them discover it through roleplaying...or not.] 

Sure Zellers is the place with the spotless bays, every tool in existence,
and techs in clean white uniforms. Hobert and Sons is a beat up old
warehouse in a seedy part of town with convenient access to chop shops and
two dogs laying in the parking lot, and two mechanics, Sal and Vinny. 
They'll also be a lot cheaper on their initial estimate, but'll take
longer than they said, and eventually might cost you more, and the repair
_certainly_ won't be as reliable as Zellers. 
 
> I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to apply these ideas, but I wanted to
> toss them out for examination.  A couple of ideas...
> 
> 1.  The *cost* of a component varies by the detailed TL used to
>     manufacture or service it.
>     
>     a.  If the TL used to work on a component (DTL) is above the
>         available TL then cost is:
>         
>         Cost * (1 + (TL - DTL)*10)
>         
>     b.  If the TL used to work on a component (DTL) is lower than the
>         available TL then cost is:
>         
>         Cost / (1+(DTL - TL)*10)
>         
>     c.  If the TL used (DTL) is equal to the available TL then cost is:
>     
>         Cost     
>         
> [Example:  Zellers Motors (DTL=10.2) is servicing a TL10 drive with a base
> cost of 1000Cr. Their DTL is higher than the 10 needed so...
>         
>             Cost = 1000 / (1 + (10.2 - 10)*10) = 333cr
> Hobert and Sons (DTL=9.4), doing the same job, has a DTL lower than 10
> so...
> 
>             Cost = 1000 * (1 + (10 - 9.4)*10) = 7,000cr
>             
> That's a pretty big spread! ;->]

I also think that's going to be different. Think of an auto repair place.
The higher tech place will be able to charge a healthy premium for the
better and faster work they'll do, leaving H&S to scratch along, with
their only incentive being to lower prices. There's no way that H&S will
stay in business charging 21 _TIMES_ what a competitor does! I think a
more reasonable range, given your +/- 0.5 spread is to simply apply the
spread difference, and apply it in the _other_ direction. To user your
example Zellers is 10.2 which is .5 or 50 % higher, they'll charge 1500cr
to to the job, fast, on time and within estimate, using factory parts and
factory tools to do the job.

H&S are at 9.4 which is .3 or 30% lower. They'll do the job for 700cr.
They'll use cheap or refurbished parts, and their factory tools come from
Sears, if you're lucky. When the job calls for a 31 degree angled 9.4 mm
Zieback spanner, they'll jam in a vise-grip and hope the bolt doesn't
shear off.

They'll also struggle for two hours to do what the techs at Zellers can do
in five minutes because they have the proper tools. (On this I speak from
long personal experience, having owned an Italian motorcycle. The manual
has four pages detailing the special tools the factory shop must have.)

 
> 2.  The performance of components vary by the detailed TL used to build
>     it.  This would allow for significant differences in performance
>     between warships of cultures of nominally equal tech levels.  Say
>     Boaz and Malone, both TL10, are at war.  Drive-TL is actually 10.2
>     for Boaz and 9.7 for Malone...Boaz's ships should have an advantage
>     with regards to drive performance/volume/cost.  Weapons-TL is 9.8
>     for Boaz and 10.5 for Malone..Malone's weapons should have the
>     advantage in performance.

I'm not sure that you can model that very well given the coarse scale that
Traveller combat and ships work. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:26:24 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Sword Worlders

On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Scott Nolan wrote:
 
> The U.S. gave very little in the way actual hardware to Israel before the
> early 50's, and yet Israel still beat a much larger British-trained Arab
> legion, armed with then-modern weapons and armored vehicles.  They were
> more motivated and better lead.  Leadership and supply are the keys, here.
> 

Not to mention _damned_ good intelligence, and a real sense of having
their backs to the wall, which would be a very good description of the
Sword Worlders and the Zhodani. The Israeli's also beat them using
mostly small unit guerilla tactics which have consistently beat large
standing armies every time. In later conflicts the Israelis made damn sure
they had air superiority, which will make a large armor force extremely
vulnerable.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 16:34:35 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

>Got a little problem with my players. They're Munchkins. I'm running foul=
 of
>a group of players whose first choice of equipment is PGMP or FPMG. They
>always go for the big hit at the expense of everything else. I've=
 introduced
>various non-combative plot seeds but they players wither ignore these, or
>feel the scenario was a bore.

Problem confirmed.

>What I'm looking for is a little twist in the tale to a hack and slay type
>scenario. Something that leaves the palyers satisfied with having killed
>something but adds a non-combative pull/push/enigma etc. that might appeal
>to munchkins.

If they cannot get away from killing, sober them up by having them kill the
wrong persons (innocent civilians etc.). Be colorful in your descriptions.
Make them realize what they have done. Make them feel bad about it. Really
bad.


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:27:29 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: RE: Insurance rates & Al Morai

Steven Hudson writes:
>Subject: Insurance rates
>However, wouldn't the cargo
>insurance charge be the problem of the owner of the goods (whether
>that be the party at either pick-up or delivery end)? In that case,
>the carrier may not be liable short of a court case.

Quite possible, but the cost of the occasional lost ship alone accounts
for most of the Cr360, so it dosen't make much of a difference.
 
>   FWIW, even a 0.1% chance of a ship-stealing piracy event seems high,
>or most small ships would be stolen before their 40-year nominal life
>was over.

Exactly. I was trying to demonstrate that there is a discrepancy between
the number of ships/cargoes a pirate would need in order to make a living
and realistic loss rates. Whether I have done so is, of course, a matter
of opinion ;-)

>Subject: Re: Al Morai

>  The canonical Cr 1000 per jump can reasonably be assumed to allow
>some sort of premium for longer-jumps/faster deliveries.

I'm not using the canonical freight and passenger rates. Instead I'm
assuming that the profits of any regular shipping line is commensurate
with the canonical rate of interest for starship loans. That way you
avoid the discrepancy of ships that can't turn a profit merrily plying
the spacelanes in defiance of economic logic.
 
>>Operating expenses for one of these babies would be:
>...
>>Maintenance: 809,000/year; and profit and bank payments: 50,562,500/year, for
>>a total of Cr57,432,700.
> 
>  Odd question for the economists/accountants out there - if the corp
>finances its own ships from capital, how would the return on the total
>investment work out?

For simplicity's sake I'm assuming a rate of return of 6.25% for banks
and owners alike. This gives owners an effective rate of return slightly
higher than that of the banks, but that is quite reasonable since if an
owner goes bankrupt he loses everything while the bank still has title
to the ship. And it is so much simpler.

>I guesstimate max revenue (see below) of ~MCr 80,
>less 5-8 MCr ship-specific outlay, for approx. MCr 75 net, or around
>9%, before reinvestment/depreciation, and dividends, and less lost
>(partial) interest earnings for the ship construction period.

If a regular, established line took a profit much in excess of 6.25%,
surely some other line would move in and undercut it, wouldn't it?
 
>>1) How does four patrol ships protect Al Morai carriers in 52 different
>>   systems at a time? By implied threat?
> 
>  These space-cows produce 120 (HG) EP's. Two for c-4, 30 for Agility
>one, and 88 for lots of safety lights? Or twenty-something triple beam
>turrets and possibly a comp 5? This means external pirates and small
>warships can go <beep> themselves, or just die. Gunnery crew (HG) is a
>bit over one or two per battery. IN subsidies for upgraded (fib?) comps
>for use as wartime auxiliaries may exist.

OK, let me put it another way: How can four patrol ships make a difference
big enough to account for 3% of the gross? If the transport ships was
armed (at the cost of a reduction in cargo space, mind you), what do you
need the patrol ships for? And if you need the patrol ships, just how do
you use them?

>>   close to MCr60 per year, but they only net about MCr10. 
> 
>   If they run to tight schedules - no on-site speculation, just booked
>priority cargo and passengers in a hurry, then ten-day turnaround is a
>good thing, and reasonable (~"economics drives [most] things"). This
>roughly changes things to 80 MCr gross, and close to MCr 30 net, even
>with over-rated operations costs; 

IMO this would result in lesser freight and passenger charges, not greater
profits.

>>2) Does Al Morai's four _Gazelles_ protect all the competition as well
> 
>  How about if the Gazelles are the in-house trouble-shooting vessels
>for the company, or are available for really hot priority small packages.
>The company has a clear interest in ensuring compliance to internal
>security by its own staff, and to provide security against hostile ops.
>Again, as CE's, IN subsidy for purchase (from the IN, obviously) may exist.

Yes, but 3% of gross is not small potatoes. Does the result really justify
the expense unless it really improves the survival of the freighters
markedly? 



      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2136
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, December 1 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2137



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: (Marc) Milieu 0 Campaign (Review)
Re: (Marc) Milieu 0 Campaign (Review)
Re: I need a plot device...
Re: a couple of comments on Andrew's spreadsheet
Re: I need a plot device...
re: Some Start Ship Design Questions
Re: Laser Rifles
Re: Laser Rifles
Re: I need a plot device...
Re: Traveller Software - An idea
Re: New starship miniatures (other minis?)
TL-12 Laser Bugswatter
Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)
Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)
FF&S for T4 Math Question
Re: FFS2 Armour Choice
Re: I need a plot device...
Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive
Re: I need a plot device...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:01:07 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: (Marc) Milieu 0 Campaign (Review)

> >  How about it Marc?  Will you take care of your customers who rushed out
> >  and bought first printings of FS and M0?
 >   >>
> > Sure. Why not post them here on the list?
> > 
> > Marc
> 
> This was posted some months ago now...
> Please, could someone who bought the M:0 Campaign book now post the
> additional material to the list?

Marc's permission and IG's permission are two entirely different 
breeds of cat. Unless  I'm very much mistaken, IG holds the rights to 
this material at this time. If someone can get Courtney Solomon 
to issue a statement directly to me authorizing the release of this 
material on the net, preferably a signed letter,  I'd be happy to 
comply. I still have the original electronic version as submitted to 
IG.

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:06:01 +0000
From: "Suzette C. Dollar" <suzd@pop.goodnet.com>
Subject: Re: (Marc) Milieu 0 Campaign (Review)

> >  How about it Marc?  Will you take care of your customers who rushed out
> >  and bought first printings of FS and M0?
 >   >>
> > Sure. Why not post them here on the list?
> > 
> > Marc
> 
> This was posted some months ago now...
> Please, could someone who bought the M:0 Campaign book now post the
> additional material to the list?

Marc's permission and IG's permission are two entirely different 
breeds of cat. Unless  I'm very much mistaken, IG holds the rights to 
this material at this time.  For me to feel even remotely comfortable 
posting this copyrighted material to the list, I would want a signed 
letter from Courtney Solomon/Imperium Games authorizing it. 

FWIW, should such permission be forthcoming, I still have the 
original electronic version as submitted to IG.

Suz

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:55:41 -0500 (EST)
From: RSpake2064@aol.com
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

In a message dated 97-12-01 08:23:20 EST, you write:

<< Hi Folks,
 
 Got a little problem with my players. They're Munchkins. I'm running foul of
 a group of players whose first choice of equipment is PGMP or FPMG. They
 always go for the big hit at the expense of everything else. I've introduced
 various non-combative plot seeds but they players wither ignore these, or
 feel the scenario was a bore.
 
 What I'm looking for is a little twist in the tale to a hack and slay type
 scenario. Something that leaves the palyers satisfied with having killed
 something but adds a non-combative pull/push/enigma etc. that might appeal
 to munchkins.
 
 I'm basically trying to ween the players away from the kill-em, rob-em, next
 victim mentality. Basic D&D (way way back in the mists of time) has a lot to
 answer for.
 
 /Justin Durkan >>


best way to do this is sperrate them form their
weapons/equipment/powers/ablilites.  privately e-mail me and i will show you
how i took a very muchinkin group and turned them form the hack and slash
type players.

but a teaser...  always remeber taht there is someone out there with a much
bigger stick.  the 'these an equaliser somewere out there able to balance hte
karma scales...  make an NPC group taht is basicly your PC group with better
stuff, more resourses, ect.....  make super NPCs who can walk all over them.

Richard

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 10:45:32 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Re: a couple of comments on Andrew's spreadsheet

First of all, let me say thank you to Bruce and everyone else who has
pointed out bugs, offered critisms, and made suggestions. I've been a
software developer for almost a decade now, and I wish my customers
would be as direct and yet civil as you all have been.

The good news: I have made several fixes to the spreadsheet, and have
upgraded it to version 1.3. Here's the short list:

   * Fixed TL10+ scanners and trackers. 
   * Fixed sensors and jammers to allow for multiple components
   * Fixed crew calculations in the excel version
   * Fixed missile design MFD bug
   * Added missile MFD range selection
   * Fixed missile laser communicator placement
   * Fixed primitive thrust agencies
   * Added AND primitive thrust agency
   * Fixed life support costs

The most notable omission from the above list is the weapon range
question. I've made no changes to how my spreadsheet handles ranges,
because the verdict is still out as to how it should be handled.
Basically, if you pick FF&S ranges, the weapons center on a 1-2-4-8
progression and get a 50kkm beam pointer...if you pick SSDS ranges the
weapons center on a 10-20-40-80 progression and get a 500kkm beam
pointer. This should probibly be changed in some fashion, to allow
designers to tailor the design to specific weapons. However, since we
don't have a combat system yet, I'm going to leave it be for now. As
soon as something is finalized, I will make every effort to implement it
in the spreadsheet.

Also, I have not added calculations for penetration yet, again, because
I don't know if the combat system is going to use it. If the answer
comes back "yes" to penetration, it will be added.

You can download this updated spreadsheet at my site:

http://www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm

From the main page, move to the drydock section. The spreasheet can be
found there.

Please continue to use the spreadsheet, and let me know if you find any
more bugs, or have any other requests/enhancements...

Thanks...


- -- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:13:49 +0000 (GMT)
From: Ewan Quibell <E.D.Quibell@bton.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

I'd agree with Jens.

Let them kill the wrong people, make sure there somewhere with a navel
base, and get a BattleRon to turn up, with accompanying mariens, and
either blow them to hell if they don't surrender, of capture them and let
them rot in jail, or even get them to play Prison Planet (no weapons,
takes ages of game time, teaches them role playing) if they get out they
will be hunted accross the Imperium, so makeing big splashes with high
powered weapons is going to draw attention to them selves, and they will
start out pennyless anyway. The next time they use big guns, just have a
squadron of the local navy turn up and arrest them again, or blow them
away for good.

Hope this gives you some idears ...

Ewan


	Ewan Quibell
	Data Communications Technician        The Game's afoot:
	Computer Centre                       Follow your spirit, and apon
	University of Brighton                  this charge
                                              Cry 'God for Harry, England,
	E.D.Quibell@brighton.ac.uk              and Saint George !'
	http://www.comp.it.bton.ac.uk/~edq/
                                                    Henry V 3:1
	#include<stddisclamer.h>                    W. Shakespeare

	My spelling is entierly due to dyslexia, typoes and poetic license

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:39:11 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Some Start Ship Design Questions

>Anyway, the questions come into docking and the using the shuttle to
>manuver. Would a standard docking ring (in FFS2) be able to handle the
>strain of using the shuttle for 1 g manuvering of the entire ship ( I'm
>pictureing a 400 std ship with a 90 std shuttle, by the rules this becomes a
>300 +/- std main ship, the docking ring set up simulair to the 'Nova, nose
>in at the stern of the main ship.) ?

If I remember correctly, the Annic Nova moved at much less than 1 G - perhaps
a tenth of a G or even less. Those low accelerations are certainly practical
with a docking ring. As for larger ones - the docking ring can hold the shuttle
in place when the ship is accelerating at 6G (or maybe more - let's say 10
to make the math easy) in general; so by symmetry the ring should be able to
hold the shuttle when it's pushing the ship at 1 G *as long as the shuttle is 
10% of the mass of the ship or more*. 

Alternatively, use grapples; it's pretty clear (since you can use grapples
for modules/pods) that they can take the strain.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:51:34 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Laser Rifles

>At what tech level
>did chemical lasers start? TL-13 or sooner?  When did they develop
>weapons with self contained power units as opposed to wearing bulky
>units on their backs?

Chem lasers in FFS/FFS2 actually become possible at TL 10 (although I think,
like most lasers, they get a big boost going to TL12.) 

In the Real World, the first operational laser wpns will be chemical; 
I would modify FFS2 by allowing chemical lasers at TL8 (100 kg/Mj) and
TL9 (10 kg/Mj).

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 09:52:11 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Re: Laser Rifles

>At what tech level
>did chemical lasers start? TL-13 or sooner?  When did they develop
>weapons with self contained power units as opposed to wearing bulky
>units on their backs?

Chem lasers in FFS/FFS2 actually become possible at TL 10 (although I think,
like most lasers, they get a big boost going to TL12.) 

In the Real World, the first operational laser wpns will be chemical; 
I would modify FFS2 by allowing chemical lasers at TL8 (100 kg/Mj) and
TL9 (10 kg/Mj).

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 09:49:16 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

Justin Durkan wrote:

> Hi Folks,
>
> Got a little problem with my players. They're Munchkins. I'm running foul of
> a group of players whose first choice of equipment is PGMP or FPMG. They
> always go for the big hit at the expense of everything else. I've introduced
> various non-combative plot seeds but they players wither ignore these, or
> feel the scenario was a bore.
>
> What I'm looking for is a little twist in the tale to a hack and slay type
> scenario. Something that leaves the palyers satisfied with having killed
> something but adds a non-combative pull/push/enigma etc. that might appeal
> to munchkins.
>
> I'm basically trying to ween the players away from the kill-em, rob-em, next
> victim mentality. Basic D&D (way way back in the mists of time) has a lot to
> answer for.
>
> /Justin Durkan

 One of the things I have had as a standard in my game is the 'Scout Races'.
I'm thinking of trying to work it up as a written adventure - but I haven't had
a lot of time lately.

The basics are this:

3 to 4 times a year, somewhere in the Sector there is a high stakes race.
Officially, this is discouraged by the Scouts - usually there is damage either
to one or more ships, or to the scouts that pilot them.  Unofficially - it is
tolerated because it continues the training of scouts,  and adds to the mystique
(which is a effective recruiting tool -ask the Marines!).

The NPC - Black Harry is the guy who organizes the Race is a retired scout who
got his hands on a X-Boat Tender.  He uses this to make high performance
modifications to the Scout ships (at a profit), serves as the base of operations
for the race (and the party after the race) and generally has a good time living
in retirement.

The Hook - Black Harry gets 50% of all the entry fees (he has expenses).  He
then gives 75% of the remaining amount to the winner, 15% to second place, and
10% to third.  (if 20 ships are in the race, he gets 5 million, 1st place gets
1.875 MCr, 2nd place gets .375 MCr, and third place gets .25 MCr.

The Catch - the entry fee is 50,000 credits (figure on 15-20 ships in the
race).  Also, the location of the race is a guarded secret - asking around in
needed (formidible streetwise roll, +1 DM if starport B+, +2 DM if there is a
military base, +3 if there is a scout base.)

The Race - varies - I have used the race through the Asteroid belt (all the way)
in the past, I am currently gearing up for a 'capture the flag' type race, where
they start at an outer gas giant, stealth through the system to the mainworld,
land at a pre-designated spot (and receive the final destination from someone
waiting there), then stealth back out.  Detection during the trip would count
against you, boarding and/or interception would disqualify you.

There are all kinds of possibilties available - for personal combat (someone
really doesn't want you to race), to sabotage (or counter-sabotage), to
ship-to-ship combat - it can be fun!

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:25:16 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Traveller Software - An idea

On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, SD Mooney wrote:
<snip>
>It's something that hasn't really been done before - you may say
>Star Fleet Academy does something similar but I'd disagree - because
>almost every game that has big ships in treats them like fighters.
>I'd like a game that gives a chance to select formations, to manuever
>lumbering battle wagons.  To plan production from your conquests,
>maybe even design your own ships. To link against computers or humans
>or both at once. Maybe some nice CGI like B5... Being a Mac owner,
>it's be nice to have it on both Mac and PC platforms.
Personally I'm hoping 'Rebellion' from Lucas Arts does this to some
extent.  What it actually turns out to be we'll have to wait and see
....

Jim
 ________________________________________
|  Jim Heivilin                          |  "Remember, wherever you go,
|  Campus Computing, Help Desk, 882-5000 |     there you are!"
|  ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu          |               Buckaroo Banzai
- ------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 12:29:22 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: New starship miniatures (other minis?)

On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:
<snip>
>I just saw some new starship miniatures, in pewter, suitable for
>Traveller.  One series is from the Japanese anime series Star Blazers,
>and features a variety of nice ships, including the sea-going battleship
>Yamato, converted to a star-faring warship.  The other series has small
>ships from Babylon 5.  They're all a little pricey, averaging $9 per
>blister pack at Games of Berkeley.  Check 'em out.
>

I'm looking for figs suitable for scifi (Traveller or our new scifi
RPG Blue Planet).  We're running a marshal campaign and our orca
native patrolman player got himself a nice little orca fig and I want
one to play too!!!  Any suggestions?  I tried looking in ... okay, now
I've lost the catalog but I haven't found anything to suit.  

Jim
 ________________________________________
|  Jim Heivilin                          |  "Remember, wherever you go,
|  Campus Computing, Help Desk, 882-5000 |     there you are!"
|  ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu          |               Buckaroo Banzai
- ------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 10:30:05 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: TL-12 Laser Bugswatter

No, not a self-depreciatingly cute name for a whopping great manly
elephant-vaporizing sidearm; it's just what it's called.  Able to vaporize
small creepy and crawly things with a single shot, and suitable for
flash-frying lobsters and squab.

It's about as much zap as you can get at TL-12 with DEI from internal power
supply, and still keep it a reasonable weight/number of shots.

Designed with FFS1 rules, using Antti Lahtinen's Excel spreadsheet.

- -------------------------
Weapon Type:         TL-12 4cm DEI laser longarm
Pulse Energy:        5 kJ, required energy: 9.1 kJ
Weapon Length:       40 cm
Weapon Weight:       1.978 kg loaded, 1.876 kg empty, with no magazine
Weapon Price:        Cr470
Magazine Weight:     0.102 kg
Magazine Price:      Cr2.3 (30-shot grip battery)
Features:            plastic stock

Traveller: TNE
Name            ROF   DamVal  PenRtg  Bulk  Magaz  SS  Burst  S Range
LR-5-25 DEI      3      1      Nil     2     30    0     0    280 (275)

                15x3    1

                15x5    0

                15x10   0

                15x50   0


Mark Miller's Traveller
Name               Damage  TL   Range  Shots   Mass   Reloads  Cost

Rifle, 4cm laser     1     12   Long    30     2 kg   0.1 kg   470

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 12:25:08 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

David J. Golden wrote:
 
> Eris Reddoch wrote:
> > Materials
> > Gravitics
> > Drives
> > Power
> > Electronics
> > Medical
> > Weapons
> >
> >Am I leaving any major groupings out?
> >
> >Should they be organized differently?
> >
> 
>         From my favoritest MT supplement:
> 
>         High Common
>         Low Common
> 
>         Energy
>         Computers/Robotics
>         Communications
>         Medical
>         Environment
> 
>         Land Transport
>         Water Transport
>         Air Transport
>         Space Transport
> 
>         Personal Military
>         High Military
> 
>         Novelty
> 
>         Note: Once grav technology arrives, land, water and air
> transport merge. As grav technology improves, they also merge
> into space transport.

I like the WBH approach. It groups TL into areas that player characters
actually buy. What TL goods are available, not necessarily the
manufacturing ability. This may not be what you want if you're into a
Pocket Empires campaign, or want to fiddle every little part of a ff&s
design... (frighteningly, that appears to be Eris' desire. I'm not
surprised. ;-) )

As for calculating cost difference, one thing to consider is that the
Novelty TL is the TL of imported goods, so one can use the exchange rate
chart (by TL and starport) to calculate the cost of those goods.

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\  . . Enter Jumpspace --X->  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/ \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 12:25:01 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

Ethan Henry wrote:
> 
<snip>
> 
> Also, does electronics == computers? My ability to make really
> small radios has no direct relation to whether or not I can
> make Quake.

Not true. Your ability to make small radios *does* affect your ability
to make computers. Witness the evolution of vacuum tube -> transistor ->
integrated circuit. All components of radios *and* computers.

Your ability to make Quake is a different animal. That's Software
Engineering TL. Perhaps *that* should be a different group. Or perhaps
it should be grouped under a Mathematics/Logic TL. :)
 
> In a lot of cases, things will end up falling into multiple
> categories. Which may or may not be what you want.
> 
> > TL VARIATIONS
> >
> > [Example:  Malone has a General-TL of 10, and we want to find out exactly
> > what their Materials-TL is.  We roll (6-7)/10 and get -0.1, so Malone's
> > Materials-TL is 10 + (-0.1), or 9.9...
> 
> 9.9?? How is 9.9 any different from 10? Can 9.9 build really awesome TL
> 9 stuff but not TL 10? Or can it build crappy TL 10 stuff? At what point
> do TL 10 items become available - TL 9.1? TL 10.0?

I'm reminded of a JTAS article which broke down Nuclear Weapons
technology development into a decimal, 6.1, 6.2 etc.

> > ...So, Malone lags in several technical areas, but is pretty advanced in
> > Electronics and Weapons.  PC's wouldn't want to have their drives worked on
> > a Malone, but would probably get better (and lower priced) weaponry there.]
> 
> You'd probably see a +/-0.5 variation in TL just across different
> companies
> on a certain world. Rating a whole world to within 0.1 TLs seems to be
> "measuring below the noise threshold" (for lack of a better
> description).

I agree. There are more important factors that influence price.

<snip>
> > I'm not sure exactly how I'm going to apply these ideas, but I wanted to
> > toss them out for examination.  A couple of ideas...
> >
> > 1.  The *cost* of a component varies by the detailed TL used to
> >     manufacture or service it.
> >
> > 2.  The performance of components vary by the detailed TL used to build
> >     it.
> 
> What's that old engineer's joke? "Low Cost, Easy to use, High
> Performance
> - pick any two." So, presumably, you left out ease of use as a third
> thing
> that could improve. Of course, there is a lot of variation at a given
> TL,
> as the trade-offs will be different depending on where you are. For
> example,
> Vilani items are often engineered for complete ease of use, while
> Solomani
> ones are often built for performance.

Interesting. One mechanic for building "ease of use" into the game would
be extra penalties for unskilled/low skilled users when using a low
"ease of use" item, and bonuses when using a high "ease of use" item.

Here's a brainstorm. What if you rated equipment with 3 "attributes":

Cost         -- Self explanatory
Quality      -- Quality of manufacture, wear and tear. Items not
maintained 
                properly would be of lower Quality.
Ergonomics   -- That elusive "ease of use" factor.

You could rate them on a 1d6 scale, or -- knowing you're a fan of FUDGE,
Eris -- the Terrible-Superb scale.

To simulate the Engineer's old saw, "Pick two", you would have a set
number of points to allocate to all three. So average CQE, or good C,
average Q and poor E, etc.

Or, drop Cost as an attribute, and devise a formula to calculate Cost
variation based on Quality and Ergonomics. That's probably a better
approach.

One would need a table to show the effects of quality and ergonomics on
the task roll, maintenance, performance, etc... back in January I posted
a rough draft of my ideas for a quality table. If you're interested I
could send it directly or repost.

> > What does everyone think?
> 
> Interesting. Although it may be of marginal use unless your players'
> characters spend a lot time (in-game) reading "Consumers Reports" and
> such.

heh. true.

- -- 
====== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /---- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\  . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275/ \
 -----------------------/ \=========== Eschew Obfuscation ===========

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 12:06:19 -0700
From: taran <taran@pcisys.net>
Subject: FF&S for T4 Math Question

Hello,

I just recently picked up Fire, Fusion and Steel for T4 with the intent 
of building some ships, guns and vehicles for a pocket empire I'm working 
on.  FF&S was, for me, the only redeeming aspect of Traveller: The New 
Error, and I was excited that it had been redone for T4.

However, there are a few symbols in the formulae that I don't understand, 
and I was wondering if someone here could help.  If you refer to equation 
55 on page 96, this one features all the myster symbols.  Specifically, 
what does the double-headed arror mean, what does the line through the V 
mean (is it just a long negative, or does it have another meaning?), and 
the check mark at the end and the 90 degree angle with an arrowhead on 
the end.  What do all these mean?

Thanks in advance,
David
taran@pcisys.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:18:04 PST
From: "Paul Zumstein" <pzumstein@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: FFS2 Armour Choice

>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
>
>Which would you folks prefer:
>
>a) select armour thickness
>
>b) select armour factor
>

Select armor factor.

PZ

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:45:12 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  wrote: 

>
>Problem confirmed.
>
>>What I'm looking for is a little twist in the tale to a hack and slay 
type
>>scenario. Something that leaves the palyers satisfied with having 
killed
>>something but adds a non-combative pull/push/enigma etc. that might 
appeal
>>to munchkins.
>
>If they cannot get away from killing, sober them up by having them kill 
the
>wrong persons (innocent civilians etc.). Be colorful in your 
descriptions.
>Make them realize what they have done. Make them feel bad about it. 
Really
>bad.
>

I agree.  Maybe, just maybe, by their actions they should be the ones 
who really released the virus!  ;->

Greg
The Count 


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 21:22:48 
From: jamesd@spirit.com.au
Subject: Re: Linking up the Virtual Archive

Hello Glenn, on Nov 25 you wrote:

> We might want to consider compiling a list of common keywords, plus one
> master keyword that could be "unique". [...]
>
> These "Traveller standard" keywords can be kept in a central repository,
> ideally a Traveller FAQ (aside: where's the TML FAQ again? I remember
> seeing one...) Those who want to search the web for Traveller stuff
> could use it as a starting point.
>
  I am more than happy to add them to the FAQ. Which, BTW, is at
http://www.spirit.net.au/~jamesd/tml-faq.html. It should be updated in a
couple of days.

> For the Master Keyword, I suggest: TravellerRPG
> (one word, for uniqueness)
>
  Yep, that sounds good, as do the other ones you suggested.

Bye,
James Dempsey
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 email: jamesd@spirit.com.au             | Neptune, Titan, stars can frighten!
 WWW:   http://www.spirit.com.au/~jamesd |   Astronomy Domine - Pink Floyd

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:24:30 -0500
From: "Kevin L. Kitchens" <peiprog@feist.com>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

While I dislike hack-n-slash players, I think the "run into a brick wall" solution is 
tantamount to saying: "Play it my way or not at all".  Any semi-decent thinker will be 
able to see through this charade and realize the GM is "taking his ball and going home".

Sure they can RP it out, but I think the fair thing to do, rather than waste too much time 
would be to tell them up front that these consequences will occur and that they are 
basically playing out-of-character for the environment they are in.

On  1 Dec 97 at 17:13, Ewan Quibell wrote:

> I'd agree with Jens.
> 
> Let them kill the wrong people, make sure there somewhere with a navel
> base, and get a BattleRon to turn up, with accompanying mariens, and
> either blow them to hell if they don't surrender, of capture them and let
> them rot in jail, or even get them to play Prison Planet (no weapons,
> takes ages of game time, teaches them role playing) if they get out they
> will be hunted accross the Imperium, so makeing big splashes with high
> powered weapons is going to draw attention to them selves, and they will
> start out pennyless anyway. The next time they use big guns, just have a
> squadron of the local navy turn up and arrest them again, or blow them
> away for good.

 The Perfect Game - http://www.peiprog.com/PerfectGame
========================================================
 Serving enthusiasts of computer baseball simulations
========================================================

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2137
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Traveller-digest      Monday, December 1 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2138



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: I need a plot device...
Re: Sword Worlders
5th Frontier War Sourcebook?
Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)
Re: The Latter Days of the Rule of Man (long)
I'm (sorta) back!
AND missile drive
Re: I need a plot device...
SayBOOM presents --
Re: Alien and Races
Re: FFS2 Armour Choice
Re: New starship miniatures (other minis?)
And yet another version of the FF&S spreadsheet!
Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)
Re: I need a plot device...
Re: 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?
Life in the Future
Re: Plot Device Needed

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:14:13 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

At 11:48 AM 12/1/97 -0000, you wrote:
>Hi Folks,
>
>Got a little problem with my players. They're Munchkins. I'm running foul of
>a group of players whose first choice of equipment is PGMP or FPMG. They
>always go for the big hit at the expense of everything else. I've introduced
>various non-combative plot seeds but they players wither ignore these, or
>feel the scenario was a bore.
>
>What I'm looking for is a little twist in the tale to a hack and slay type
>scenario. Something that leaves the palyers satisfied with having killed
>something but adds a non-combative pull/push/enigma etc. that might appeal
>to munchkins.
>
>I'm basically trying to ween the players away from the kill-em, rob-em, next
>victim mentality. Basic D&D (way way back in the mists of time) has a lot to
>answer for.
>
>/Justin Durkan
>
>
>

Suggest you land them on a planet that has a virus that is tailor-made to
destroy technology.  See the book, "Web of the Chosen" by Jack L. Chalker.
A religious group with a sentient computer landed on this planet a century
or so earlier, and unbeknownst to the people on the colony ship, it's
computer began interpreting 'scripture' in it's own way, and designed a
'virus' that it could control to dissolve non-natural occuring substances.
It does not show up on any form of scan, and can eventually dissolve
anything technological.  It also eventually changes the 'people' into a
tailor-made sentient species much more devoted to biblical 'paradise'.  You
need to read this book to get the full gist of it.  But I gurantee it will
throw your FGMPers a loop or two.  :)  Soon they'll be sitting up and doing
some REAL role playing to get out of this predicament.  :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 11:42:16 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Sword Worlders

At 08:27 PM 11/30/97 -0900, you wrote:
>"Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net> wrote

>This sounds _great_ for story purposes but given the lower population
>and Tech Levels how can the Sword Worlds be a serious threat to the
>sector (much less to the Imperium) ?
>
>The fact that that they "have a strong cultural identity.  They have a
>strong sense of manifest destiny." may help to explain why they are
>trying this but does not explain why they would have a chance of
>success.  Israel in the 50's was outnumbered but it had IMHO a higher
>military tech level than its neighbors, or at least it had equipment of
>(possibly fractionally) higher tech level that it had received from the
>USA.  Do you have the Zhodhani funneling arms into the Sword Worlds ?
>Given that the counselate is TL 14 and has TL 13 reserve forces (source
>5thFW) it seems unlikely that it could/would be giving arms transfers of
>better than TL 12-13.  This is a step up from the Sword Worlds native
>military tech level of 10 - 12, but is it enough improvement to threaten
>the area ?

The Sword Worlds are recieveing extensive support from the Zhodani,
espeically in terms of Naval tonnage.  The 43rd (Lunion) and 100th
(Glisten) Fleets are in for a shock when the Confederation Force:Space
comes across the border.

The SWC plan depends on catching the Imperium off balance, by way of a
grand maskirova.  Increasing attacks by pirates and the Ine Givar, support
of dissident groups and criminal organizations, even clogging the Imperial
courts with claims against various government offcials.

>On the other hand the neighboring subsectors are pretty weak & low tech.
>If the Imperium is more worried about the Zhodani and has most of its
>military forces farher coreward than the area the Sword Worlds just
>might be able to step on their neighboring subsectors (see data below -
>Sup 3 Spinward Marches & The Regency SB).

<snip>       
>Important (Population 8+, TL 10+) Worlds in Villis (N) Subsector Worlds

>The Villis Subsector has 8.9 billion people at Tl 10.  The planet Villis
>uses much of its miltary strength to hold down Garda-Villis, leaving
>less available for other needs.

Other than the need to hold down the flank for their Zhodani allies, the
High Command sees Villis as unnecessary.

>Important (Population 8+, TL 10+) Worlds in  Darrian (I) Subsector

>The Darrian Confederation has 2 billion people (on Darrian) with a
>military TL of about 13, a ship building TL of 15, and some relic
>technology of TL 16.  It has 10 billion people at TL 11 and 2 billion
>people at TL 10.The independant worlds have .8 billion people at TL 10.

The Sword World position on the Darrians is "someday, but not today."  They
are content to wait until the tiome is ripe and the Imperium is unable to
respond.

>Important (Population 8+, TL 10+) Worlds in  Lunion (K) Subsector Worlds

>Lunion Subsector has 17 billion people at TL 13 (with Naval bases). It
>also has 0.8 billion people at TL 11 and 0.9 billion people at TL 10.

Lunion is the heart of the plan.  By taking the Lunion cluster, they cut
the Spinward Main isolating the Spin/Rimward portions of the Sector.

Part of the paln is to incite very bad feelings between Lunion and
Strouden, resulting in a reluctance to send Colonial forces to the aid of
the capital.

>Important (Population 8+, TL 10+) Worlds in District 268 (N) Subsector

>District 268 has 1 billon people at TL 13, 0.9 billion at TL 12 and 6
>billion at Tl 10.  District 268 is not formally part of the Imperium but
>it is under Imperial "protection" (i.e. control)

District 268 is to absorbed in a later operation, currently scheduled for
1120.

>It sure looks as if the Sword Worlds are a more than a match for Villis
>Subsector or District 268 (or both).  They might be able to handle the
>Darrians (if not for the Darrians higher technology).  They might be
>able to handle Lunion subsectors forces.  The Imperium, or even the
>Domain should be able to squash them like a bug.
>
>If we assume Imperial Military assets within the Marches are deployed
>primarily in response to the Zhodani threat with the Sword Worlds being
>considered a secondary, or tertiary problem for local forces they might
>well be able to do quite well until the Imperium could spare & bring in
>reinforcements.  This is all that is needed for them to be perceived as
>a threat.  Doug seems to have a plausible threat here.

Thank you.  I've played 5FW on a map of the entire sector with additional
units to represent the additional fleets.. when the SWC has the option of
acting in a way not dictated by the map (i.e., try to take Lanth and
Garda-Villis), they become a wild card to be repsected.

>I had always dismissed the Sword Worlds as a joke until I just did this
>miltary analysis.

So did the Imperium.


- --

+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry    | 
+-------------------------------------+
| "I created the universe; give ME    |
|  the gift certificate!!"            |
|        - Lisa Simpson, Overachiever |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:21:24 -0500
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?

Anyone know where I can get a copy of the 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 15:44:36 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

>Materials 
>Gravitics
>Drives
>Power
>Electronics
>Medical
>Weapons

My own belief is that "weapons" shouldn't be a seperate category.  If you're
going to use a category system like this, then weapons should be assigned
Tech Levels in different categories, but that can tend to get complicated
(unless you're making your own weapons from something like 3G3 or FFS/FFS2).

For example, an M-16 rifle might be Materials 7, Drives 6 (using the Drives
category to cover propellant here)...

I mainly say this because most weapons are merely an extension of other
developments.  The TL system I toyed with briefly (for a space strategy
wargame, not really Traveller), was:

Physics
Energy
Materials
Biotech
Nanotech (Sort of an extension of both materials and biotech, but I thought
it warranted its own category for game balance)
Electronics

And, um, I think there were a few others, but I forget now.  But, by my
reasoning, different things would come up at different tech levels throughout
the game.  Sufficiently high physics and energy TLs would allow the creation
of plasma guns, fusion guns, and eventually capital ship-type particle
weapons.  Biotech and materials TLs would allow the creation of life ships,
and larger colonies and such, Biotech, electronics and materials TLs would
come up with powered armor suits and such...

But, yeah, that's sort of what I'm getting at :)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:54:06 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: The Latter Days of the Rule of Man (long)

Michael Bailey <mickb@opera.iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
> After a century of growth and prosperity, the Rule of Man began to foun=
der.
> The old Vilani customs had been swept away, but with nothing to replace=
 them
> the result was more often than not chaotic.  Industrial production drop=
ped,
> unemployment rose, and populations rose up in rebellion against their o=
ld
> leaders.

Woo hoo! Nice work.

> When Empress Juliana died in =961926, the Council of Noble Officers was= split
> into a half dozen rival factions, each with their own candidate.  Drawi=ng on
> their regional bases, they fought a series of increasingly large battle=s to
> eliminate their rivals.  The fighting resulted in severe disruption of
> interstellar trade and commerce, and contributed to the further decline= of
> the Second Imperium.

This is, IMO, the interesting part. I never could quite connect why all
that interstellar commerce stopped. I mean, sure, the economy was bad, but
how was that stopping each and every interstellar trip? The idea that
regional states were engaging in extensive commerce raiding, motivated
by power-hungry rivals for the Irridium Crown really works for me.

Piracy in the 3I ain't goin' to have nothin' on the pirates from -1900.

Also, you describe what happened in the Rim, but what about the other=20
major 2I centers, like Vland? Did these areas follow the same pattern
of breakdown into smaller states before all the major worlds became
isolationist?

Anyway, awesome stuff,
Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 14:57:17 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: I'm (sorta) back!

Our Internet gateway seems to have some stray bits of Virus in residence. 
Some of my messages to Dom, for example, are being returned by the gateway
claiming that his host doesn't exist - others get through.  

(Dom, I've emailed you v1.4.11b of Infini-V twice now.  Let me know if you
haven't got it yet.)

Anyway, I've missed all teh discussion this weekend (both email problems
and a nasty case of the flu) so may be a bit behind.  Some updates:

I'm starting FFS2 with CPR Small Arms, mainly because I think that they
should be fairly simple.  So far this is a simple dialog box that lets you
change everything.  Once I've verified the formulae I'll generalize the
code to include vehicle-mounted support weapons, then start work on the
starships module.  I plan on taking a fair number of shortcuts to save
time so that I can get it out before T5 is published ;-)

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 13:58:27 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: AND missile drive

I little while ago I posted the AND drive optimized for missiles. The fuel
consumption as posted was somewhat wrong (I neglected the higher mass of 
AND fuel while trying to match 6G12 peformance.) The revised stats are:

TL      Type    Thrust  Price   Fuel    Ftype
                kn/m3   MCr/m3  m3/hr/kN
10      AND     1100    0.80    0.034   D/T water


D/T water       1.167 tonne/m3  Cr 20,000/m3

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:12:22 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

- -----Original Message-----
From: RSpake2064@aol.com <RSpake2064@aol.com>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, December 01, 1997 2:02 PM
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...
<snip of Justin's PC problem>
> /Justin Durkan >>
>
>
>best way to do this is sperrate them form their
>weapons/equipment/powers/ablilites.  privately e-mail me and i will show
you
>how i took a very muchinkin group and turned them form the hack and slash
>type players.
>
>but a teaser...  always remeber taht there is someone out there with a much
>bigger stick.  the 'these an equaliser somewere out there able to balance
hte
>karma scales...  make an NPC group taht is basicly your PC group with
better
>stuff, more resourses, ect.....  make super NPCs who can walk all over
them.
>
>Richard

Richard,

Why private mail?

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 14:09:56 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: SayBOOM presents --

                Laser Assisted Biological Rubble Yield System
                             (L.A.B.R.Y.S.)
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

The standard-issue infantry weapon in the modern Sayat military.  While not
especially powerful, nor useful for area-suppression fire, this carbine is
noteworthy for its extreme durability and reliability.  The body itself is
rugged, and like its ancient Terran namesake, nicely accessorizes
any melee combat situation.  The accurate marksmanship stressed by Sayat
military training is greatly enhanced by the capabilties of this weapon,
which includes a bipod mount and a telescopic scope.

Its small size and folding stock permit use as a handgun as well, with
reduced range; at closer ranges it can be a particularly deadly weapon
(approximately double damage under 90 meters).

- ------------------------------------
 Weapon Type:           TL-12 5.25 cm DEI laser longarm
 Pulse Energy:          23 kJ, required energy: 41.8 kJ
 Weapon Length:         43.4 cm
 Weapon Weight:         1.914 kg loaded, 1.914 kg empty
 Weapon Price:          Cr1027
 Magazine Weight:       4.98 kg (with 300-shot box battery)
 Features:              Folding stock, bipod, telescopic sight

Traveller: TNE
 Name             ROF   DamVal  PenRtg  Bulk  Magaz  SS  Burst    S Range
 L.A.B.R.Y.S.    SA 4     4       Nil    1/2   300    0    0     280 (275)

Mark Miller's Traveller
 Name             Damage   TL  Range   Shots     Mass    Reloads     Cost
 L.A.B.R.Y.S         4     12   Long    300     1.9 kg     5 kg     Cr1030

VL                Short    Medium     Long     Extreme
Range              275       550      1100      2200
Intensity         0.0057   0.0014    0.0004       0
DV                  0         0        0          0
Damage Dice         4         2        1          0
IPR                 0         0        0          0
Pen Rating         Nil       Nil      Nil        Nil

Designed with _Fire, Fusion and Steel_ rules, using the Excel spreadsheets
created by Antti Lahtinen.

- -------------------------------
Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
Sayat Extras: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/sayat.html>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:06:47 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Alien and Races

On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 Dralasite@aol.com wrote:
<snip>
>   Greetings again!  I found that my biggest gripe with the new Alien movie
>was how Quick the military abandoned ship.  Surely with their advanced
>technology and higher numbers the could have taken the aliens.  

The Marines in 2 had pretty high tech and I didn't see anything in
this one that was that much better than 2.  But they were outnumbered
and on unfamiliar turf.

>The general(if he lived) would have been court martialed for
>abandoning a star-ship the size of that one.

Not to start another ST debate, but he was outside controlled space
doing illegal experiments.  Ignoring the other inconsistancies, he did
good by sending the crew home, they could always try the 'I was only
following orders' line to see if it would protect them.  And it didn't
appear that he was trying to get out himself.  Since being courts
martialed for losing the ship would have been the least of the
charges!

Jim
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 02:47:11 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <BRuadh@southwest.net>
Subject: Re: FFS2 Armour Choice

At 11:18 AM 12/1/97 PST, you wrote:
>>From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
>>
>>Which would you folks prefer:
>>
>>a) select armour thickness
>>
>>b) select armour factor
>>
>
>Select armor factor.
>
Add one more (me) to armor factor cadre
Brian A. Howard

If you hear the sound of a Babel fish, run. 
For a Vogon constuctor fleet cannot be far behind.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 17:42:55 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: New starship miniatures (other minis?)

- -----Original Message-----
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Monday, December 01, 1997 4:44 PM
Subject: Re: New starship miniatures (other minis?)


Just an addition to Lim's comment/request. Are there any mini companies out
there making suitable 15 mm minis. I have a mess of Fasa and original deck
plans and maps made in 1/2 inch scale for use with 15 mm, unfortunately the
dozen or so Martian Metals minis that have survived numerous moves and
storage facilities are getting a bit thread bare, not to mention the lack of
variety. Please reply in private email so that we don't waste more
bandwidth.

Thanks
Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

>On Fri, 28 Nov 1997, Glenn M. Goffin, Esq. wrote:
><snip>
>>I just saw some new starship miniatures, in pewter, suitable for
>>Traveller.  One series is from the Japanese anime series Star Blazers,
>>and features a variety of nice ships, including the sea-going battleship
>>Yamato, converted to a star-faring warship.  The other series has small
>>ships from Babylon 5.  They're all a little pricey, averaging $9 per
>>blister pack at Games of Berkeley.  Check 'em out.
>>
>I'm looking for figs suitable for scifi (Traveller or our new scifi
>RPG Blue Planet).  We're running a marshal campaign and our orca
>native patrolman player got himself a nice little orca fig and I want
>one to play too!!!  Any suggestions?  I tried looking in ... okay, now
>I've lost the catalog but I haven't found anything to suit.
>
>Jim
> ________________________________________
>|  Jim Heivilin                          |  "Remember, wherever you go,
>|  Campus Computing, Help Desk, 882-5000 |     there you are!"
>|  ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu          |               Buckaroo Banzai
>------------------------------------------
>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 16:50:47 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: And yet another version of the FF&S spreadsheet!

Another new version of my FF&S spreadsheet is now available on my
website. This version (1.4) has the following improvements:

  * Weapons can have their own range brackets, 1-2-4-8 for "short-range"
weapons, and 10-20-40-80 for "long-range" weapons. The USPs have SR or
LR appended to them to set them apart.
  * Extra MFDs have been split into two types: Beam MFDs and Missile
MFDs. Missile MFDs include a laser commo.
  * A macro has been added that allows you to copy the base TL to all
the component slots (thus you don't have to do it). Hit ctrl-t to
activate the macro.
  * USPs are now calculated using the SSDS errata as far as ROF is
concerned (10=-1, 50=0, 100=+1, etc..)
  * And missile design is finally working, with the new AND drive type.
You can now design your own custom missiles.

  This version also corrects all of the bugs that I am aware of. Thank
you to all the people who have offered advice, criticisms and bug
reports.

Many thanks to Bruce Alan Macintosh for the great deal of help he
extended today (which prompted one cosmetic change - his name has been
added to the credits).

You can get the spreadsheet from my website:

http://www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm

Just Travel to the drydock page.

Let me know if there are any problems/requests/concerns/comments...

Thanks!

- -- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:48:05 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

Ooohhh... someone followed up my post.

I love it when I manage to avoid the "TML Black Hole".

Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote:
> > Also, does electronics == computers? My ability to make really
> > small radios has no direct relation to whether or not I can
> > make Quake.
> 
> Not true. Your ability to make small radios *does* affect your ability
> to make computers. Witness the evolution of vacuum tube -> transistor ->
> integrated circuit. All components of radios *and* computers.

The transistors you use in a computer and the ones you use in a radio
are pretty different. Now, it may seem silly, but just because you
invented Bipolar devices doesn't mean you've invented CMOS or vice-
versa. If you've never been forced to sit through hour after hour
of lectures about transistors they probably seem all the same, but
really, they're not. (I can't tell the difference between a GV and a
OII star, but I'm sure someone around here could, as an analogy).

It is, however, questionable whether this level of detail really
enhances the game.

> Your ability to make Quake is a different animal. That's Software
> Engineering TL. Perhaps *that* should be a different group. Or perhaps
> it should be grouped under a Mathematics/Logic TL. :)

A good idea. Odd as it may seem, a lack of a decent mathematical
background will prevent you from doing all kinds of neat stuff,
like encryption. Unfortunately, as programmers will attest, a lower
math/logic TL will translate into being able to produce more
software. ;) Abstract knowledge isn't usually modelled as it has
little direct bearing on what the players can and can't do in the 
game. 

GM: Sorry, you can't get a tuneable laser here.
Player: The planet is TL 15. Why not?
GM: Ah... their Math TL is only 7. They can't do double integrals.
Player: <slaps head>

Also, while the Pentium (or pick whatever piece of hardware you like)
may be neat, it isn't much without code. It is possible that you could
have hot hardware and absolute crap software (ok, no microsoft jokes)
or (again) vice-versa.

In general it is difficult to come up with realistic TL categories
because we really don't have a good idea of what technologies are
the real necessary preconditions for other technologies. We've only
ever seen it done one way. Do you have to invent 0.1-micron IC processes
before you can do Quake 3? Or did it just work out that way here?

> Here's a brainstorm. What if you rated equipment with 3 "attributes":
> 
> Cost         -- Self explanatory
> Quality      -- Quality of manufacture, wear and tear. Items not
>                 maintained properly would be of lower Quality.
> Ergonomics   -- That elusive "ease of use" factor.
> 
> You could rate them on a 1d6 scale, or -- knowing you're a fan of FUDGE,
> Eris -- the Terrible-Superb scale.
> 
> To simulate the Engineer's old saw, "Pick two", you would have a set
> number of points to allocate to all three. So average CQE, or good C,
> average Q and poor E, etc.
>
> Or, drop Cost as an attribute, and devise a formula to calculate Cost
> variation based on Quality and Ergonomics. That's probably a better
> approach.

This would be cool, although it is a bit excessive. I mean, if you were
doing whole 8"x11" equipment sheets, a la MT, then you could get this
kind of detail in, but otherwise you'd have descriptions for things
like knives and running shoes looking like a starship USP.

Personally, while I like the idea of a mechanic that allows you to model
crappy equipment versus good equipment, is it really practical? I mean,
do you want to tell your players "Well, you failed the task roll by one
point... you should have spent the extra cash for that really nice
Darrian PRIS instead of the cheap Sword World one...". 

<crabby>
If I want to get mad about having bought cheap, crappy equipment 
I'll go use my home PC, not simulate it in Traveller.
</crabby>

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ehenry@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:32:53 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Greg Smith wrote:
<snip>
>Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  wrote: 
>>>What I'm looking for is a little twist in the tale to a hack and slay 
>>>type scenario. Something that leaves the palyers satisfied with
>>>having killed something but adds a non-combative pull/push/enigma
>>>etc. that might appeal to munchkins.
>>
>>If they cannot get away from killing, sober them up by having them kill 
>>the wrong persons (innocent civilians etc.). Be colorful in your 
>>descriptions. Make them realize what they have done. Make them feel
>>bad about it. Really bad.
>>
Perhaps Player Character family members?  Perhaps Noble family members
(thus making them hunted to the ends of the sector/subsector)?  Split
them up and make the 'shoot anything that moves' mentality result in
friend fire casualties.  This is usually easier to do if you
physically separate the parties.  We used to run multimedia adventures
for Call of Cthulu and now Blue Planet with this and two or more
referees.

Jim

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, Help Desk, Campus Computing, (573) 882-5000       
  University of Missouri at Columbia, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
"You Yankees are so silly about matters of the heart, 
  Don't you know that women are the only works of art ..."
		Jackson Browne - "Driving with Your Eyes Closed"
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:12:04 -0800
From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?

Michael Kent wrote:

> Anyone know where I can get a copy of the 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?

I've never even heard of this before.  Was there such an animal?

I've got FFW, but I've never heard of a sourcebook.

Kenneth.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:19:01 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Life in the Future

OK. So Mileu 0 is all but paperless. That means that the old newspaper is
deader than Mr Dodo.

We all know you can buy a virtual paper on data chip or a direct download
to your comm at any 'newstand'. That's great. Does that mean that the TL 12
comm comes with a telescoping Dog-Chastiser, a Bug-swatter or laser
equivalent, Roll of ersatz toilet paper or cat-litter tray liner, and a
survival blanket for the local tramp to wrap himself in? Or is the
newspaper not truly obsolete?

In fun,
MJD.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 23:21:35 -0000
From: "MJ Dougherty" <martinjd@globalnet.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Plot Device Needed

>What I'm looking for is a little twist in the tale to a hack and slay type
>scenario. Something that leaves the players satisfied with having killed
>something but adds a non-combative pull/push/enigma etc. that might appeal
>to munchkins.

>If they cannot get away from killing, sober them up by having them kill
the
>wrong persons (innocent civilians etc.). Be colorful in your descriptions.
>Make them realize what they have done. Make them feel bad about it. Really
>bad.

Then what? Spot the ones who say 'whoohoo! We whacked the wrong dudes! Now
let's whack the RIGHT ones!!!' - and shoot them out of hand? 

Better yet - shoot the whole bunch and get some more pitiful worshippers!

Seriously, this kind of behavior is hard to cure. You can try the Really
Fascist approach - have the Imperial Authorities issue a Shoot on Sight
warrant on these destructive lunatics, and take them out with an OTT
combination of firepower and tactics. Then watch them rant and complain,
refuse to compromise and say 'OK - I'm trying for a little realism here.
You want on the 'most wanted' list, you got it. But this is what happens.' 
You'll lose half the players, of course, and have a huge argument to boot,
but maybe the fallout will contain something good.

Or here's an alternative I did for Morrow Project. 150 years after a
nuclear holocaust, the few scattered Morrow Teams are trying to put America
back together, against hopeless odds (Rather like TNE in some ways). Our
team (heavily armed and leaning towards the action-adventure side, fresh
from a shootout with some REALLY vicious beasties) drove into a deserted
town. Just smalltown USA. There's nothing here. Oh, they went looking,
searching for the secret base, the cannibal tribe, the rad-cockroaches.
Nothing.

Just an oversized graveyard, extended down the hill from the little wooden
church. Just a brooding emptiness where people once lived. Just three
desiccated bodies lying in the church and a plastic-wrapped notebook
telling how a bio-weapon infected the town. The folks stayed to die rather
than leave and risk infecting others - killed a few of their own to keep
the infection in. Buried the bodies until the last three were too weak to
dig any more. Wrote their records - named every grave - and slowly died.

All they left behind was the notebook, explaining what they'd done, and
expressing the hope that they had saved a few lives by not spreading the
plague. The characters knew otherwise, but saluted the sentiments behind
the last phrase in the book - 'May God Have Mercy. We did what we could.'

Three very sober characters gently carried the bodies outside and buried
them with their townsfolk, buried the book with them, and traveled on.
Their goal was to put civilisation back together again - and to see that
this never happened again.

I really didn't know if I'd get away with it. An adventure with no NPCs, no
gunfight, no challenge, just an empty town and three corpses? Real
munchkins would snarl and complain, but a player worth having would respond
to this sort of thing.

Why not give it a try?
MJD.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2138
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Monday, December 1 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2139



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

VDS review by Bertil Jonell
MT/WBH
Re: Tech Levels Ideas
Sector data database updated
[T97#2133] womon-identified womyn?
Re: I need a plot device...
Re: Races of the TML
I need a plot device...
Re: 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?
Re: I need a plot device...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:46:51 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: VDS review by Bertil Jonell

This was in rec.games.frp.announce, dated last Tuesday

To be clear...I DIDN'T write this, Bertil did (who IIRC is/was a tml
member, if it's _is_ I haven't seen anything by him lately)

I will add that I like VDS a lot, though.

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

- -------------------------------------------------------------------

- -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

VDS1.0 Vehicle Design System by Greg Porter, BTRC

A brief review by Bertil Jonell (d9bertil@dtek.chalmers.se)

  Even Briefer: Greg Porter's vehicle design system is finally here, but I'd
take late and good over crap in time for Gencon anyday:) Funny how all the good
stuff tend to come from small companies like BTRC or Pagan, but I digress.
  Does VDS do for vehicles what Greg Porter's Guns! Guns! Guns! (aka 3G3) did
for guns? I think so, yes. Even without taking into account that the area
'vehicles' is quite a bit larger than the area 'guns' I give it a 4.7 out of 5,
and taking it into account a 5 out of 5.

  My Bias: I'm a long time dyed in the wool BTRC fan, with a equally long
history of pestering Greg Porter with questions and unsolicited advice:)

  Format: The format of VDS is odd: it is only available in electronic format,
as a 4.6 meg Acrobat file (or as a 2.5 meg Acrobat file without the color
backgrounds on the chapter intro pages). The reason why it isn't in print
is said to be a combination of the hike in paper costs and that it is a
niche product.
  VDS is 162 pages long, some paragraphs are color-coded just like in the
CORPS 2nd Edition rules. There is a fair number of illustrations and diagrams,
and an abnormal (for being an BTRC product:) number of photographs (each
chapter intro, plus some others).

  Caveat: VDS is designed for CORPS, and it isn't as generic as 3G3. IMHO those
CORPS nutshell rules that BTRC gives away for free and the conversion notes in
3G3 should contain most of the information one needs to use VDS designs in other
systems (basically armour/weapon data to get a feel for what CORPS Armour Values
and Damage Values correspond to in other systems, as well as a short explanation
of the CORPS skill system).

  Disposition: Intro, nine chapters, eight sample designs, collected reference
tables, and three design forms:
    Special intro to the .pdf edition, 1 page
    Contents, 1 page
    Intro, 3 pages               Definitions, Hints and Author's Notes.
    Performance, 7 pages         What do you want out of the vehicle?
    Power Plant, 11 pages        The thing that makes it move.
    Power Train, 19 pages        The things that turn power into motion.
    Structure, 12 pages          Internal structure, Accomodations, Facilites,
                                 Crew.etc
    Surface Treatments, 15 pages Armour, Turrets, Streamlining, Waterproofing,
                                 Lifting surfaces etc
    Accessories, 26 pages        Controls, Computers, Sensors, Safety and
                                 Security equipments, Manipulators, Spare
                                 Parts, Life Support, Climate Control etc^2.
    Weapons, 3 pages (sic!)      A very elegant formula, and tables with 
                                 examples. Of course the whole 3G3 is
                                 available for this purpose:)
    Combat, 10 pages             Extends the CORPS combat system to cover
                                 vehicles betters.
    Campaigning, 18 pages        Vehicles from the roleplaying perspective.
    Sample Vehicles, 8 pages     TL  3 Trireme
                                 TL  5 DaVinci War Wagon
                                 TL  7 Armored Frigate (the Gloire)
                                 TL  9 Jet Fighter (Me-262)
                                 TL 11 Tank (M1A2)
                                 TL 13 Interstellar Freighter
                                 TL 15 Hypersonic Interceptor
                                 TL 17 Assassin Android
    Reference Tables, 30 pages...Various tables to make life easier for those
                                 who don't like equations. For example top speed
                                 as a function of power and vehicle mass.
  Each chapter (except the Intros, the Sample Vehicles, and the Reference 
Tables) concludes with a 'Am I doing This Right?' page with sample
calculations using the stuff in the chapter in question.

  Specifics:
  Being Generic: I was pretty doubtful wether it was even *possible* to make a
truly generic vehicle design system. The previous attempts that I've seen was
either too specific, or too wrong (and far too often both). But VDS pulls it
off. Let me illustrate with examples from the Power Plant and Power Train
chapters. The base output per kilo of power plant is Tech Level squared. This
is multiplied with the Type of the power plant, which is one of Biologic,
Durable (for example diesel or steam), Normal (auto engine), Enhanced (sports
car), Exotic (race car, jet, gas turbine), Dangerous (rocket engine), Extremely
Dangerous (nuclear), or Suicidal (antimatter), each with their output modifier,
cost multiplier, fuel consumption, and maintainance interval.
  (This is actually the first vehicle design system that I've seen that
introduces maintainance and durability as important design parameter in its 
own right. Several other design systems ignore it, or at best has something
tacked on like an afterthought that doesn't work well with the rest of the 
system.)
  Fuels are also rated in (similar) types, and hot stuff (like LOX and LHyd:
type Dangerous (cryogenic fluids at high pressures) naturally gives better
fuel performance but are quite troublesome to handle, and disastrous during
accidents).
  Several normal types of power plants are illustrated, along with special
subjects like the need for cooling, mixed fuels, reaction engines (yes, you
can design a NERVA, a PLUTO or a compared to them almost mundane solid fuel
ramjet), startup times, starter engines, the often overlooked fact that a
gas turbine doesn't deliver electricity directly, batteries, solar power, 
wind power (the sails are the engine, and the masts are the power train), and
magic power.
  The section on magical powerplants also include a rather interesting
discussion on the sale price of zombies, as well magic powerplants that 
work through voluntary or involuntary draining, and the effects on the
victims.
  Power Trains are apart from the rocket engines, divided into Wheels, Tracks,
Legs (small, medium or large feet), Indirect to Dense Medium (ie water: 
propellers, paddles, oars for zombie oarsmen), Indirect to Average Medium,
Indirect to Thin Medium (ie air: props, jets, turbofans, ducted fans), and 
the perennial favourite Antigrav.
  (One of those Venetian small boats would be a boat propelled by a leg
(the pole) for example).
  Special topics in the Power Train chapter are secondary power trains 
(like amphibious APC's), Earthborers, Hovercrafts, Articulated Vehicles, 
Jump Jets, Jump Drive, Railroads and Monorails, Towing, Antigrav and
Artificial gravity.
  (Especially Nice Point: The rocket engines use specific impulses. The
treatment of rockets in 3G3 has previously been a pet peeve of mine:)

  The Campaigning chapter is another high point of VDS. It holds hints and
advice on using vehicles as settings, antagonists, objects of adventure, 
transports, and money sinks. Stuff about doing tricks with or on the outside
of vehicles, commercial and legal considerations.
  Building vehicles gets several dedicated pages, how long it takes, how much 
it costs, (see also 'vehicle as a money sink'), how big a workforce is needed
etc, along with standardization, modular components, warranties, markup, and
the various bugs that might plague the new design, ranging from the humorous
via the annoying to the instantly lethal.

  (Another Especially Nice Point: Greg Porter has finally included a 40mm
automatic cannon. It is however a bit too heavy compared to the original)

  Customizability: How easy is it to hammer VDS into something usable for a 
specific background, and how easy is it to hammer something that doesn't exist
in VDS into it? Pretty easy IMHO. I tried to design a TL 10 turret-less tank
with a glacis sloped at 88 degrees and a fixed gun aimed by manipulating the
suspension, and it came out rather close to the original Strv 103. There is
even a bug on the bug table that matches the one the 103 suffers from in real
life:) (2 x double suspension maintainance required)

  Downsides: First of all, the lack of an alphabethic index. This is especially
noticeable if you print it out (like I did after the first reading), but even in
its electronic format the presence of a 'Find...' function in Acroread doesn't
entirely remove the need for an index. If I am looking for the price of spare
parts it is much easier to find it as a subheading under 'Spare Parts' than try
to figure out what exact search string to use: -0.10
  The lack of an index is made more severe by a slightly confused organisation
compared to 3G3. I'll admit that gun design is a much more linear subject, and
that it is hard to present such a wide and interrelated subject as vehicle 
design in a linear manner. But I still don't like that some Power Train cost
multipliers are found in the 'Performance' chapter: -0.10
  Autoloaders: No rules for autoloaders for large caliber weapons. Too big for
3G3 the main focus of which was smallarms, so it should have been found in VDS
but it isn't: -0.10
  Stabilization: The treatment of stabilization is strange.
  Sloped Armour: There should have been an equation for an arbitary slope in
addition to the values given in the table (the thickness multiplier is 
1/cos(slope), and the extra vehicle dimension is tan(slope)/2).

  Contacts: The One Who Made It:  http://members.aol.com/btrc/index.html
            The Ones Who Sell It: http://www.hyperbooks.com/

  VDS Is Especially Recommended To: Renegade Traveller fans that dislike cubic
yards:)

- - -bertil-
- - --
"It can be shown that for any nutty theory, beyond-the-fringe political
view or
 strange religion there exists a proponent on the Net. The proof is left
as an
 exercise for your kill-file."


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------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 97 00:01:30 +0000
From: David Scott <Snail@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: MT/WBH

More

>Also, does electronics =3D=3D computers? My ability to make really
>small radios has no direct relation to whether or not I can
>make Quake.

I always assumed that computers in this sense refers to early AI =
stuff with TL 12 being the base for usable robots everything earlier =
being stupid. Computers therefore doesn=B9t really mean electronics =
as it has a large section of =B3psychology=B2 added in to make the =
machines work like people should.


David

mailto:Snail@dircon.co.uk
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~snail/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 97 23:57:00 +0000
From: David Scott <Snail@dircon.co.uk>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels Ideas

Hi, I liked the MT/WBH tech level system:

>Personal/Military Weaponry (From Clubs over Blackpowder to Plasma Cannons)
>Computer (Mathematics, Abacus, Relais Computer, Superconductors ...)
>Communications (Telephone, TV, Holovideo ...)
>Environment (Shacks, Cities, Weather Control)
>Medicals (From crude surgery to Anagathics)
>Transportation Land/Water/Air/Space (Wheels, Planes, Gravitics, Jump =
Drives

Another technology grouping was mentioned somewhere in printed work =
(where I=B9m not Sure).
That was Metaconductors. This formed the basis for jump drives, =
gravitics, thrusters and probably stuff like black globes.

The mixing of some of the MT/WBH levels although simple and neat =
doesn=B9t really relate the above relationship of metaconductors. =
These seem to be the basis of tech level advance like jump the others =
are an out growth of this technology. Perhaps 

>  Materials
>  Gravitics
>  Drives
>  Power
>  Electronics
>  Medical
>  Weapons

needs to be merged a bit:

Personal/Military Weaponry
Computer
Communications
Environment
Medical
Transportation Land/Water/Air/Space
Metascience

Where Energy & meta science is the basis for other claculations (as =
per MT/WBH) or do people think Metaconductors are subsumed into =
Energy?

David

mailto:Snail@dircon.co.uk
http://www.users.dircon.co.uk/~snail/

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 15:55:09 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Sector data database updated

I've recompiled the database and loaded it onto the website.  This adds the
Gvurrdon and Diaspora sector data into the database, and brings it current with
the spreadsheets.  I also have added 'x' and 'y' coordinate fields for Sector
position, and broken up the pop. multiplier, planetoid belt, and gas giant code
into individual fields (I apologize to anyone who is already working with the
previous format, but I needed to add the sector position data to make that
infomation usable from the database, and it made more sense to break up the PBG
data).

I also fixed the links problem in the workbook version of the spreadsheet and
added a revision page (accessible from the 'last revised' date) so I won't have
to waste TML bandwidth to let people know what I fixed, and when it was fixed!

If anyone has any additional @1100 sector data (Sector Names, SubSector Names,
Planet Names, or UWP data) - please send it my way!  Additionally, if anyone has
any of the M:0 data in electronic form, please send it to me so that we can get
that posted as well!  :)

douglas

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 00:09:59 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2133] womon-identified womyn?

On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:46:31 -0500, Tim Connors
<tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu> wrote:

>At 06:25 PM 11/28/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971126213406.007d19e0@mail.pcisys.net>
>>
>>David,
>>
>>> Certainly. They're human beings of the gender without protruding

[bandwidthectomy]

>><sigh>
>>
>>Sometimes I think a .1c dinosaur-killer would be the best thing for=20
>>this planet.
>>______________________________________________________________________
>>Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
>> "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
>>
>	Suck down another beer; give a hearty=20
>	toast to the world at large; and just remember that
>	there aren't enough horses.

Strange - there are certainly more than enough horse's asses...

I remember when PC stood for "Personal Computer"...
- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:00:37 -0500
From: ringrose@ascent.com
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

Justin - 

A game is a collaborative effort between the players and the GMs.  If
you have a problem with the way they are playing, you owe it to them
to _tell_them_ rather than running them into a brick wall.  Preferably
without calling them munchkins to their face, that's a good way to
lose players instead of changing them.  Then, give them a chance to
change.  If they fail to change, run them into a brick wall.

Suggestions:

Tell the players that their enemies will be balanced for their power
level.  If they go buy PGMP or FPMG, their opponents will probably be
armed with the equivalent.  If they _fail_ to buy them, their
opponents will be appropriately armed.  Then do it (and make sure
their large-damage weapons damage and destroy their opponents' weapons
as well as their opponents).  Acquiring arms and armor is suddenly
pointless - they have to think about what to do with the money.

When it comes time to brick-wall them, consider carefully the results
you want, then figure out how to do it.  What do they care about?
Each other?  Not likely.  Their stuff?  Yup.  But if you just "take it
away", their reaction will be to say "awww, that's no fair.  We had no
chance."  Even if they had a chance.

Just damage their stuff.  Make them realize that the new equipment is
defective... occasionally fails to fire, for example, or has bad aim.
Of course they bought it someplace with a no-returns policy, and
defenses which become obvious and then give them a chance to slip away
(after all, the propieter doesn't want to have to deal with the cops
either).

Look at their ship.  Use a (gasp!) rigged space combat to pound it
into a hulk at the hands of a pirate.  The point at which their ship
is suitably damaged, their shots get through to something vital and
the pirate explodes.  Use care that they don't see it was rigged (like
roll _all_ the dice out of their sight, and make sure the pirate shows
damage too).  From then on, they're constantly repairing parts of
their ship... that should be a nice big money sink until they realize
that they need to roleplay to get money again.  Who knows, they might
limp in to have their ship declared "not spaceworthy until this, that,
and that are repaired" - no cargo for you until you do.  Hrm, what're
you going to sell to get the money?

Turn their tech against them.  If they all have IR/low light goggles,
consider putting them in a situation where the lighting is designed to
foil such (a military or para-military complex might have such), but
naked eyes work acceptably.  Use EMP on their equipment - but they
won't find out what works until they try; for this intermittent
failures are even better than breakage.  I don't recall if Traveller
has things where tech lets you get skills (like Gurps Space's chip
slots), but consider what _else_ could be granted by such.  Say, a
driving imperative to kill a specific person, accompanied with "don't
let anyone know, don't take out the chip".


Put them in a limited-area mystery.  Example setting: waterey planet.
They are invited out to dinner by a prospective client, or as a "thank
you" from a passenger after a rather hectic (pirate-infested) trip (in
which their ship may have been punded into a wreck, so they may hope
that this rich passenger will give them more money).  The "restraunt"
is essentially a very lare underwater structure on treads - it rolls
out to give the diners a nice view of the exotic underwater life.
Four hours or so from shore, there's a murder - possibly of their
host.  Be sure you've taken the time to write up the personalities of
the various people on board, and what they want.  Everybody should be
up to _something_, from smuggling to shady deals, to political stuff,
to wanting a promotion within the ship's crew....  It's hard, but it
is possible that they find the roleplaying adventures boring because
they, well, are.  Besides, anything which doesn't come up during the
adventure can be re-used.  Make sure the mystery can be solved, even
if they miss a few clues (because they _will_ miss a few clues).


What do they want?  They may want to impress the other players.  Let
one of them pull a gun in this restraunt.  Pass him a note which says
"That gun would probably go through both the target and the hull -
that'd be _really_bad_."  Now he knows something the other players
doesn't, and if you're lucky will use the fact to impress the other
players with his "forethought" (ie, not actually firing the gun).
Even though it wasn't quite what you had in mind (you didn't want any
guns down here anyway),  reward him for not firing with a clue to the
mystery.  Perhaps he scared the person enough for him to let something
slip, perhaps one of the people running from the area ran in the wrong
direction....


Use the character backgrounds.  If they don't have them, warn them
that you'll make it.  If they do, figure out interesting and
unexpected ways to fill in the holes.  Have a sister appear.  Uncle's
company's rival corp might decide to use the PCs against him.  God,
the possibilities are endless....  I once had someone want to play an
amnesiac.  My, was he surprised when he discovered (3 real-time months
later) that he wasn't even human.


Good luck.  It can be done.  Once it is done, you can give them
resources again.

	- Robert Ringrose
	  ringrose@ascent.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:13:18 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Races of the TML

Leonard Erickson wrote:

>
>In mail you write:
>
>>>Leonard Erickson: Droyne Technician
>
>I think my ilustrious ancestor wishs to have a few words with you... :-)
>
>(Sheesh! You could have at least made me one of Yaskodray's
>grandchildren! :-)


	Hey... at least nobody called you a Vargr on acid :).

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:37:14 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: I need a plot device...

	Justin Durkan wrote:

>
>Hi Folks,
>
>Got a little problem with my players. They're Munchkins. I'm running foul of
>a group of players whose first choice of equipment is PGMP or FPMG. They
>always go for the big hit at the expense of everything else. I've introduced
>various non-combative plot seeds but they players wither ignore these, or
>feel the scenario was a bore.
>
>What I'm looking for is a little twist in the tale to a hack and slay type
>scenario. Something that leaves the palyers satisfied with having killed
>something but adds a non-combative pull/push/enigma etc. that might appeal
>to munchkins.


	How about targets that big guns won't work on?  Big swarms of
really ugly little critters who are attracted by stray electromagnetic
current... and who attack by spraying sticky corrosive gunk that their
decontam airlock can't handle.  Or better yet, the electromagnetic current
triggers their mating urge, and their technotoys get covered in a thick
layer of (sticky, corrosive, smelly) alien, er, secretions and critters who
died exhausted but happy.

	Or herds of very large carnivores who stampede them for similar
reasons.

	Or if they aren't too physics-savvy to figure out whether this can
work or not (I'm not), just have a local planetary magnetosphere so strong
that it interferes with proper functioning of the weapon; blasts don't
travel straight, or the magnetic bottle deteriorates or _fails to form
altogether_ <boom>.

	If that isn't believable, have the bad guys in possession of some
TL-19 device that has the same effect.  If the players capture it, make
sure that they can't learn how to operate it.

	Or just put them in a situation that they clearly can't shoot their
way out of without winding up dead and have to negotiate their way out.

	Or have them hired by a patron who can't stand guns and whose
delicate sensing equipment suffers from interference whenever a FGMP is
powered up.

	Or have them attacked by a bunch of PMPP-wielding Sayat pirates.
If they survive, and the sarcasm goes miles over their heads, do not warn
them about the recoil when they attempt to use captured units.

	Or get some players whose mental age is over 13.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:38:50 -0500
From: "Daniel Poulin" <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?

I assume that you're talking about the Spinward Marches Campaign source
book (subtitled: Adventures ina War-Ravaged Sector)?

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

- ----------
> From: Kenneth Bearden <dreamer@brokersys.com>
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?
> Date: 1 d=E9c. 1997 20:12
>=20
> Michael Kent wrote:
>=20
> > Anyone know where I can get a copy of the 5th Frontier War Sourcebook=
?
>=20
> I've never even heard of this before.  Was there such an animal?
>=20
> I've got FFW, but I've never heard of a sourcebook.
>=20
> Kenneth.
>=20
>=20

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 19:35:11 -0500
From: "Daniel Poulin" <pould@netcom.ca>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

I don't understand something, how can they walk around with that stuff
anyway?  Any major planet will not accept that these people walk around
like a tank!  There should be major negative modifiers for interaction wi=
th
others (have you ever talked with someone who has a big gun?  This is a
major no-no on social etiquette).

Also, the local authorities (read police) would probably notice these
individuals walking around and would react accordingly.  They wouldn't se=
nd
a policeman with a small handgun against a group of heavily armed
individuals, they probably would select someone amongst them that has the
knowledge and the equipment (it is reasonnable to assume that even low te=
ch
police have the equivalent of a high tech SWAT team to react against
individuals like these players).

I would highly recommend stopping them at planetary customs (nothing
violent or dangerous, just a lone custom agent telling them that they
cannot bring that shit here.  Make sure there is a camera on the wall tha=
t
records individuals going through customs, someone with a big gun will
attract attention even before he answers any questions).  If they kill th=
at
individual, feel free to waste the characters using the above mentioned
team (if there is a naval base on the world, the Navy might interdict the
ship to please the planetary government) and have them start all over
again.  It might sound corny but violence breeds violence.  If they simpl=
y
pass him by, have him attempt to arrest them.  If they resist, they
probably will kill the man.  Waste the characters, you gave them a warnin=
g.

Ofter, a character who is a Noble will insist on a bodyguard indicating
that the bodyguard has a right to bear arms, remember that this is a
reasonnable right to bear arms (we're talking autopistols here or laser
pistols, not FGMP-15).

If the characters decide to use their own airrafts to leave the starport,
make sure there is no weapon mounted on it (when is the last time you saw=
 a
truck in the street with a machinegun on top).  If there is a weapon, hav=
e
them arrested (once again, use a simple policeman, if they kill him, this
is now murder: in some campaigns, a murder is an imperial crime, feel fre=
e
to waste the characters: you gave them a warning).

Have your games in heavily civilized areas (it tends to discourage
weapons).  Have a murder mystery (going around asking questions with a bi=
g
gun in not appreciated).

I hate to kill characters (I don't remember having done it in a while).  =
I
usually try to give my players a warning that what they are going to do i=
s
stupid and crazy and will end up costing them their lives (I then conside=
r
them warned).   You will notice that all the above mentioned solutions
contain a warning of some sort (the stup=EEd customs or police agent that
might end up dead).  If they don't understand, they are fair game.

The best solution remain ultimately to have a realistic universe with
realistic people and worlds.  AD&D players may succeed with violence (or
more precisely, violence is a realistic solution in AD&S because of the
nature of most of the universes).  This is not the case with Traveller.  =
On
the other hand, the solutions above are only available if you game in a
civilized area (like the Spinward Marches or the Solomani Rim).  Most of
the solutions  will not work in a Virus infected wilds.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

- ----------
> From: RSpake2064@aol.com
> To: traveller@MPGN.COM
> Subject: Re: I need a plot device...
> Date: 1 d=E9c. 1997 10:55
>=20
> In a message dated 97-12-01 08:23:20 EST, you write:
>=20
> << Hi Folks,
> =20
>  Got a little problem with my players. They're Munchkins. I'm running
foul of
>  a group of players whose first choice of equipment is PGMP or FPMG. Th=
ey
>  always go for the big hit at the expense of everything else. I've
introduced
>  various non-combative plot seeds but they players wither ignore these,
or
>  feel the scenario was a bore.
> =20
>  What I'm looking for is a little twist in the tale to a hack and slay
type
>  scenario. Something that leaves the palyers satisfied with having kill=
ed
>  something but adds a non-combative pull/push/enigma etc. that might
appeal
>  to munchkins.
> =20
>  I'm basically trying to ween the players away from the kill-em, rob-em=
,
next
>  victim mentality. Basic D&D (way way back in the mists of time) has a
lot to
>  answer for.
> =20
>  /Justin Durkan >>
>=20
>=20
> best way to do this is sperrate them form their
> weapons/equipment/powers/ablilites.  privately e-mail me and i will sho=
w
you
> how i took a very muchinkin group and turned them form the hack and sla=
sh
> type players.
>=20
> but a teaser...  always remeber taht there is someone out there with a
much
> bigger stick.  the 'these an equaliser somewere out there able to balan=
ce
hte
> karma scales...  make an NPC group taht is basicly your PC group with
better
> stuff, more resourses, ect.....  make super NPCs who can walk all over
them.
>=20
> Richard

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2139
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 2 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2140



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: I need a plot device...
Traveller Alexandria Project Update
Unruly Players...
Looking for a game
Re: 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?
Re: Deckplans / exploratory station
traveling clocks
traveling sports umbrellas
Tech Level Ideas
Auction updated, some Traveller items added
Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)
FF&S Spreadsheet
Re: FF&S Spreadsheet
Re: I need a plot device...
Gurps-Traveller
Re: traveling sports umbrellas
Re: The latter days of the RoM

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 17:02:22 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

hmmm....

This has been an... enlightening thread.

Don't get me wrong, I highly discourage my players from test-firing their high
energy weapons in shopping malls, but I do let them (occasionally) acquire
them.  I do run games (infrequently) where the side with the biggest bang wins.
If nothing else, it's a great money sink.  Buying PGMPs and FGMPs on the black
market is not a cheap thing.  Recently, my players bought one of those cargo
handlers, just so they could start training in it (they hope to acquire
battledress in the future).  They are currently engaged in the purchase of 4
armed grav-carriers which they are going to try and smuggle into a Amber Zone
(and supply to the insurgents there).  Up front cost to them is in the area of
2.0 MCr - Profit (if everything is as it is reputed to be... ;) will be about
6.0 MCr over and above expected costs  (they have not figured in ship damage - I
think they are hoping for the best).  I've used two gaming session just setting
up the meet, and now the purchase.  I expect to get 1 more in scouting out the
buyer, and at least 1 to get the ship in and past the customs and defense
patrols.  Will they get to play with some big guns?  Yer darn tootin!  Will they
need to fire them guns?  Only if someone screws the pooch in a major way...
(One of the questions they asked in a planning session was 'how will we be sure
they will pay once we are there?'  The answer [much to my amusement] 'man the
grav-carriers!')

There are many positive ways of channeling the players into a more constructive
groove, but just 'stomping' on 'em is not the path I would choose.  This is not
meant as a critism, just an observation and a remark on the variety of campaign
structures that exist.  I do tend to run adventures that skirt the edge (and
beyond) of legality, but that is where my players enjoy the game.  And, I don't
know about the rest of ya, I tend to enjoy games more when the people I'm
playing with enjoy it (tho' it's a well known fact of life in my games - when I
start laughing, they are in serious, serious trouble).

douglas

- ----
_____________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

All I ask of a firearm is that it be reliable, accurate, and capable of dropping
a god at 500 meters
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: 01 Dec 1997 11:51 EST
From: "Robert Eaglestone" <eaglesto@nortel.ca>
Subject: Traveller Alexandria Project Update

Gentle Travellers,

TAP is underway.  The alpha version was sent to four
contributors last Wednesday, and healthy suggestions
were received.  After reviewing suggestions, here is
the updated format for submitting your links to TAP:

<mailto:yourName@your.host.system>	Rob Eaglestone
<http://www.foo.net/~rje/t4>		Rob's T4 Web Pages
<http://www.foo.net/~rje/t4/bar>	Rob's Sad Starport
<ftp://www.foo.net/~rje/t4/stuff.zip>	Rob's Silly Utilities

The formatting program recognizes these key words in your descriptions:

	Article, House Rule, Story

	Campaign, Adventure, Scenario, Encounter, Character, PC

	Equipment, Weapon

	Program, Util, Software, Form, Generator

	Ship, Trader, Boat, Cruiser, Deckplan

	Vehicle

	Universe, Sector, Subsector, World, Port

Thank you for your help.

My plan is to ship the most current library version to all
contributors by the end of the week, to use and/or to post.

Rob

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:58:32 -0500 (EST)
From: Larry Hadley <lhadley@peterboro.net>
Subject: Unruly Players...

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Traveller-digest wrote:
>  
>> Got a little problem with my players. They're Munchkins. I'm running foul of
>> a group of players whose first choice of equipment is PGMP or FPMG. They
>> always go for the big hit at the expense of everything else. I've introduced
>> various non-combative plot seeds but they players wither ignore these or
>> feel the scenario was a bore.
[snip]
> best way to do this is sperrate them form their
> weapons/equipment/powers/ablilites.  privately e-mail me and i will show you
> how i took a very muchinkin group and turned them form the hack and slash
> type players.
> 
> but a teaser...  always remeber taht there is someone out there with a much
> bigger stick.  the 'these an equaliser somewere out there able to balance hte
> karma scales...  make an NPC group taht is basicly your PC group with better
> stuff, more resourses, ect.....  make super NPCs who can walk all over them.

   Hmmmm, this looks like a job for Famille Spofulam, or SayBOOM! ;)


- -- DLH                                 lhadley@peterboro.net

homepage: http://text.peterboro.net/~lhadley/index.html
bio: http://text.peterboro.net/~lhadley/Profile.html

  "Fight to fly, fly to fight, fight to win." - TOPGUN motto.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:54:07 -0500
From: "Jeff Fuller" <jfuller@frontiernet.net>
Subject: Looking for a game

I'm looking to join or start an IRC Traveller(T4) campain.
Is anyone either running a game right now or interested in being in a weekly
or bi weekly campain?


Jeff
jfuller@frontiernet.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 18:23:39 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?

At 03:21 PM 12/1/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Anyone know where I can get a copy of the 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?
>

Would you be referring to the Spinward Marches Campaign, by any chance?


- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:45:34 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: Deckplans / exploratory station

Quoth Sebastian Davids:
> where could I find deckplans for the following spacecraft & modules:
> - Aurora-Class Clipper, RCEG, p. 131
> - Manta-Class Fueler, RCEG, p. 130
> - Maggart-Class Clipper, RCEG, pp.136 & 137
> - the various 'clipper modules', RCEG, pp. 132-5

GDW _was_ to have produced a TNE book something akin to "Ships of the
RCES," but folded before it could be published.  I seem to recall Loren
Wiseman mentioning on this list that he was working on the Aurora...
I wonder if the outlines still exist?

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 19:10:42 PST
From: "Norm Ramiento" <storrm@hotmail.com>
Subject: traveling clocks

Wallet-Style Traveling Alarm Clock for sale below retail. All new.
Email for details.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 19:12:20 PST
From: "Norm Ramiento" <storrm@hotmail.com>
Subject: traveling sports umbrellas

Traveling Sports Umbrellas for sale in a variety of colors. All new.
Email for details.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 97 22:04:22 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Tech Level Ideas

Hi Folks!

Thanks for the many replies.  I haven't had a chance to go through them in
detail yet, but I am, however something I've noticed...

>Hi, I liked the MT/WBH tech level system:

>I like the WBH approach. It groups TL into areas that player characters
>actually buy. 

>	From my favoritest MT supplement:

Ah yes!  The legendary WBH rears it's head.  ;-> 

_World Builder's Handbook_, which I don't have, and have been looking for
since I learned of it's existence when I started paying attention to
Traveller again in the later TNE days.  I know better than to ask if anyone
wants to sell their copy, or for anyone to violate copyright, either. 
However...would it be possible/legal for one of the "honored ones" to post
a summary of how WBH extends things like TL..not to mention GL, LL, etc?


Eris,
    Ok, ok!  I had a hidden adgenda...trying to scare up detailed info on
WBH.  ;->
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 22:20:56 -0500
From: Craig Janssen <daili@remove.me.gate.net>
Subject: Auction updated, some Traveller items added

I have updated the bids and added some items for Traveller.

The url is:

http://www.gate.net/~daili/auction.htm

I do expect to add some more items later this week.

Craig Janssen
daili@gate.net

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 20:39:23 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

At 05:48 pm 12/1/97 -0500, you wrote:
>Ooohhh... someone followed up my post.
>
>I love it when I manage to avoid the "TML Black Hole".
>
>Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca> wrote:
>> > Also, does electronics == computers? My ability to make
really
>> > small radios has no direct relation to whether or not I can
>> > make Quake.
>> 
>> Not true. Your ability to make small radios *does* affect your
ability
>> to make computers. Witness the evolution of vacuum tube ->
transistor ->
>> integrated circuit. All components of radios *and* computers.
>
>The transistors you use in a computer and the ones you use in a
radio
>are pretty different. Now, it may seem silly, but just because
you

	I believe there's significant overlap in the fundamental
technology, especially at early levels ... the actual engineering
may be different, but the basic concepts are the same.

>may be neat, it isn't much without code. It is possible that you
could
>have hot hardware and absolute crap software (ok, no microsoft
jokes)

	There are no Microsoft jokes, it's all true.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 22:29:30 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: FF&S Spreadsheet

Hi-

I tried to access the web page at http://www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm
using lynx (hey, it's what I got) and got an empty page with no links.  
Could some kind soul please email me the spreadsheet program, attachements 
are fine.

Many Thanks-


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 04:17:38 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S Spreadsheet

At 10:29 PM 12/1/97 -0800, you wrote:
>Hi-
>
>I tried to access the web page at http://www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm
>using lynx (hey, it's what I got) and got an empty page with no links.  
>Could some kind soul please email me the spreadsheet program, attachements 
>are fine.

Sent you the latest version at 0416 PST.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 04:05:35 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

In mail you write:

> The Race - varies - I have used the race through the Asteroid belt
> (all the way) in the past, I am currently gearing up for a 'capture
> the flag' type race, where they start at an outer gas giant, stealth
> through the system to the mainworld, land at a pre-designated spot
> (and receive the final destination from someone waiting there), then
> stealth back out.  Detection during the trip would count against you,
> boarding and/or interception would disqualify you.

Well, you could steal an idea from "Rocket Jockey". I know that the old
Triplanetary game used the scenario.

You have a system with several planets. At least 8 or 9. Everbody
launches from the mainworld, and has to land (to check in) at each
planet (or the major moons in the case of gas giants). The one who
visits all of the planets in the least time wins.

Note that the only "order" required is that you start and end at the
mainworld. 

They key here is being able to accurately plot the movement of the
planets and moons. Because even with thruster plates, the planets and
moons are going to move *noticeably* in the course of the race. 

So the racers have to figure where things will be when they get there.
And you'll need ruules for close approaches to the star and the gas
giants. After all, someone may decide that a path that sdkims one or
the other is the key to winning.

This *requires* course plotting. And just think of the fun if you are
"commited" to heading for a planet and then discover that someone
jimmied the fuel gauge. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 14:09:01 +0100
From: Pablo Jaime Conill Querol <pconque@delta.cti.unav.es>
Subject: Gurps-Traveller

Hi! I have been lost this summer, so i couldn=B4t read anything about the
Gurps-Traveller suplement. I like anybody tells me anything about it.=20
 Lots of thanks!!

Pablo Jaime Conill Querol
C/ Padre Tomas Esteban 6, 2=BAD
31008 Pamplona SPAIN
E-mail: Pconque@fcom.cti.unav.es
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Pablo Jaime -PJ- Conill Querol
C/ Monasterio de Iratxe, 49, 1=BAB
31011    Pamplona  SPAIN
e-mail: pconque@cti.unav.es

"When all your wishes are granted
 many of your dreams will be destroyed".
                           M.M.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 14:32:34 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: traveling sports umbrellas

Norm Ramiento wrote:
> 
> Traveling Sports Umbrellas for sale in a variety of colors. All new.
> Email for details.
> 
> ______________________________________________________
> Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com
Get your silly spam off this mailing list.........
In return, i hereby offer you return-o-spam free of charge!

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kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
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kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnvgmgfbnh.hbk.j dfghdfg.lfjdbgk.hdbn mfdkjvmjksmdgksjhmvjksdnvm
kdvsnv

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:38:29 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: The latter days of the RoM

Michael Bailey writes:
 
>Working on the history of the Rim for M:0...any comments or corrections?

Not many corrections, just some points where my take is different from
yours. 

>After a century of growth and prosperity, the Rule of Man began to founder.
>The old Vilani customs had been swept away, but with nothing to replace them
>the result was more often than not chaotic.  Industrial production dropped,
>unemployment rose, and populations rose up in rebellion against their old
>leaders.

IMO that is far too early for the collapse to begin. The RoM holds together
for more than four centuries.

>Stability was also hindered by the fact that there was no established rule
>of succession for Emperors.

I've always assumed that each Emperor named his or her successor, the way
the Flavian emperors of Rome did (I do mean the Flavians, don't I?).

>An aspiring Emperor had to win the support of
>the Council of Noble Officers, of which he or she was normally, but not
>always, a part.  At the death of an Emperor, the Council members began
>jockeying for position, calling in favours or using their influence to gain
>a majority.  While these struggles were initially political, By -2000 they
>had become increasingly ruthless and violent in nature.

This is not really a recipe for a 300 year slow collapse. I think that
you'd either get a long war or series of wars with a complete breakdown
at the end or a long war with a resulting new, strong Imperial line.

>...In response to this, Hiroshi V enacted a series of reforms in -1915...

>...The Terran Mercantile Community, long at loggerheads with the
>central authorities over it's quasi-military "merchant escorts", was now
>able to openly field it's own naval forces.

I don't thinki your take on the TMC is completely compatible with the
official sources, but as I don't have the books with me, I may be
mistaken. I do remember that there are some problems with the various
official dates.

Here is my suggestion for resolving the various dates and events given for
Terra, the Terran Mercantile Community, the Old Earth Union, the Rule of
Man and such. (Btw. they were submitted to _The Traveller Chronicle_ and
several of them (naturally I can't remember which, sorry) were printed in
the Gralyn issue (#7), so they are at least semi-official (depends on how
official you think TTC is)). (Also note that some sentences were lifted
verbatim from _Solomani_).

- ------------------------------------------------------------------
LIBRARY DATA:

OLD EARTH UNION: Interstellar government from -1110 to 588 compri-
sing  Terra  and  the  worlds  closest to her:  Barnard,  Calgary,
Dismal,  Ember,  Fenris,  Forlorn,  Hades,  Heiphaistos,  Inferno,
Junction,  Loki,  Midway,  Peraspera,  Prometheus,  Sirius and Ys.
Fleet bases were also maintained at Aggida,  Markhashi, and Meshan
- -  all within jump-3 of Terra  -  but  these systems were not con-
sidered  part  of the Union proper;  Agidda was a balkanized world
and  thus  unable to send representatives to the Union Council and
both  Markhashi and Meshan had been abandoned during the recession
that followed the fall of the Rim Province (qv.) in -1690.
    The  OEU  was  formed  in  -1110  out of the Terran Mercantile
Community  (qv.)  as  a response to worsening economic conditions.
Although  experiencing some problems  -  a short, vicious tradewar
with  the  newly  formed  Dingir League  from -1106 to -1098 put a
severe  strain  on  both  sides  -  the Union proved strong enough
to  defend  itself  from any serious threat during the rest of the
Long Night,  and  in  588  it was peacefully incorporated into the
Imperium.


REAVERS:  Towards  the end of Twilight,  some of the less affected
states  in outlying sectors turned to plundering old Terran Confe-
deration worlds that had lost interstellar ship technology.  These
plunderers  were called Reavers and differed from ordinary pirates
in preying on whole worlds.  This lent their name a special horror
that has clung to it down to modern days. Most of the Reavers came
from Dark Nebula,  Alpha Crucis,  Magyar,  and of course, Reavers'
Deep.
    Some historians hold that the Reaver era ended in -1118 when a
Reaver  fleet  from  the Opljiok Defense League lost two thirds of
its  ships in an attack on Jarslav.  With the Aslans becoming ever
stronger  the various Reaver states in Magyar and Dark Nebula grew
unwilling to risk such losses.
    On  the other hand,  the name continued to be applied to inde-
pendent warlords who,  escaping with loyal fleet elements from the
breakup  or  takeover  of  a small state with a few working ships,
could easily make their way into the Great Unknown and have a good
chance of dominating one or several primitive planets. Some of the
most notorious Reaver lords like Blackjack Duquesne, Orchid Lu Wu,
and Grand Admiral Izanak belong to the period from -1120 to -1000.
    During  the  latter  half of the Long Night it became usual to
label  any  opponent a Reaver,  thereby justifying practically any
treatment of that opponent.


RIM PROVINCE: Administrative division of the Second Empire compri-
sing most of the defunct Terran Confederation. It is, depending on
what historian you ask, either one of the first or one of the last
parts of the Rule of Man to succumb to the Long Night.  It was one
of the first areas to loose contact with Hub;  in -1854 the second
new  governor  sent  out  from  Hub failed to reach the province's
capital, Dingir,  and Acting Governor Ayara Twofeathers instituted
the  custom  of  Governor-appointed successors,  a system that was
kept to the end of the provincial government.
    The  lessening  flow  of commerce between the rim and the core
was  already  rendering  taxes  more and more meaningless,  and 16
years later the province ceased to remit taxes to Hub except on an
intermittent  basis.  For a while Dingir tried to keep up payments
in the form of precious metals and gems, but when the third of the
treasure  fleets  carrying these payments failed to return,  these
too were discontinued.
    On  the  other hand,  the government at Dingir kept ruling "in
the  name of the Emperor" for another century and a half,  keeping
the  peace  and  enforcing  Rule of Man regulations.  It collapsed
finally in -1690, when a huge budget deficit forced the government
to  decommision  two  thirds  of  the already decimated provincial
fleets  and  turn  over the rest to various individual planets and
the Terran Mercantile Community (qv.).


TERRAN MERCANTILE COMMUNITY:  Loose  trade  association  formed in
- -1862  by Terra and her closest ex-colonies that later grew into a
corporation.  Ostensibly a purely commercial organisation,  it was
actually a means of circumventing Rule of Man prohibitions against
member  planets having their own navies.  The TMC built a merchant
fleet  that  toed  a  very  fine line between commercial ships and
naval vessels.  The ships carried enough armament to protect them-
selves  from pirates and raiders,  but not enough to classify them
as  naval vessels.  Their merchant fleet made Terra and her fellow
worlds in the TMC a formidable commercial force.
    When  the  Rule of Man  in  the form of the Rim Province (qv.)
collapsed  in  -1690,  The Terran Mercantile Community had a space
fleet  to  patrol  its  systems and to replace the now gone Second
Empire fleets.  The TMC's merchant fleet cushioned the blow of the
Long Night  and  made it possible for Terra to survive in relative
comfort.
    The  TMC  took  over  many of the functions of the Rule of Man
(though abandoning the extreme edges of the old Rim Province), but
was  careful  at first not to assume the mantle of government.  By
avoiding  the appearance of ruling it avoided alienating the other
planets and driving them into forming their own unions. Relying on
the  protection  of the TMC ships were cheaper than building their
own,  and  the  TMC  itself  took  pains  not to be percieved as a
threat.
    For  several  centuries the TMC managed to maintain this deli-
cate balance,  but the steadily worsening commercial climate even-
tually  forced them to retrench.  Like the Rim Province before it,
the  TMC  found  the  strain of protecting the furthest worlds too
much of a burden. From -1500 on other Rule of Man successor states
in Alpha Crucis,  Dark Nebula,  Magyar and Reavers' Deep routinely
raided worlds on the fringe of the TMC sphere (see _Reavers_), but
although  this  was a contributing strain,  it was not the primary
factor. The Reaver Era ended before the end of the TMC, and Reaver
attacks in any case concentrated on fringe worlds that had already
been  abandoned  by the TMC and lost interstellar technology.  The
primary  factors  were  economic depression and a widespread trend
toward isolationism, causing a shift to planetary self-reliance at
the expense of interplanetary trade.
    When the worlds near Easter in -1112 formed the Easter Concord
and  other  worlds began talking of forming their own unions,  the
TMC  decided to cut its losses.  In -1110 the corporation formally
transformed  into the Old Earth Union,  abandoning all worlds out-
side the Union to their own devices,  and becoming a small,  tight
group instead of a large, loose one.
    See also: Old Earth Union.
- ---------------------------------------------------------------

Notes: The Rim Province is my invention (well, the name anyway.
I'm sure some such sub-division existed).

Comments? Corrections?


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2140
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Tuesday, December 2 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2141



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Free Traders & econ 101
Public Apology!
Re: FF&S Spreadsheet
5th Frontier War
Re: I need a plot device...
Ads
Re: 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?
Re: Looking for a game
[none]
Re: I need a plot device...
Re: Looking for a game
What is virus ?
Re: 5th Frontier War
Re: I need a plot device...
Re: Looking for a game
Re: 5th Frontier War
Spofustuff
Sayat Annex now open
Re: What is virus ?

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:58:06 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Free Traders & econ 101

William Barnett-Lewis writes:

>Is there any way to put a ******* free/far trader in the black using SSDS
>_or_ FFS2 rules???? Catch- NO effing subsidy... The classic canonical A2
>would not be built in the universe of T4. Period...
>
>...Seriously, can it be done in the current rules or does this (too)
>require a hand wave?

I won't guarantee it, because I've only done it with 600 T QSDS designs, 
but try one simple handwave: When these ships are built, they are destined
for regular scheduled flights between worlds with enough trade to keep
them filled an average of 90% on every trip _and the arrangements are
made beforehand so that the ship dosen't have to go looking for cargo
and passengers_! That way the ships can manage one jump per 10 days
instead of one per 14 days. Being able to make 35 trips per year instead
of 25 really helps...

IMTU Free Traders use 40+ year old ships. The brand new ships are ordered
and bought by regular companies.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:51:44 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Public Apology!

I am truly sorry... I sent me Back-Spam-Revenge-Mail to the list in
error. Didn=B4 t want to spam the list, but i can=B4 t stand spammers and
try to get back at them as often as i can. Sorry again!

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 10:53:48 -0800
From: Victor Brueggemann <dukedrake@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: FF&S Spreadsheet

I just noticed that the PA1 Sheet formula reference the Tables data for
the PA2 weapon. Check your figures, if you're using it. (Specifically,
D15, but there might be others).
- --
"You may be the 'King', Your Majesty, but like myself you are still just
a chess piece, not the Player. When this game ends, we'll both be put
back in the same box."
     -- Duke S. Drake (to the Emperor). Surprisingly, not his last
words.
Victor Brueggemann
mailto:dukedrake@earthlink.net

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 10:58:04 -0500
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: 5th Frontier War

Thanks for the various responses to my query regarding the 5th Fontier
War sourcebook.  I've been 'out of the loop' WRT Traveller for a while.
I'm planning a campaign set on the eve of the 5thFW, and am looking for
background info for that time period.  I was under the impression that
there was a sourcebook.  Am I wrong?  Could one of you recommend some
background info, and perhaps tell me a source where I could get it?

Thanks a bunch.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:18:43 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

>From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
>
>hmmm....
>
>This has been an... enlightening thread.
>
[snip]
> (One of the questions they asked in a planning session was 'how will > 
we be sure they will pay once we are there?'  The answer [much to my > 
amusement] 'man the grav-carriers!')
>
[more snipping]

IIRC there was a question about why the Imperium needed to have 
currency.  There were many answers, but I think the above gives another 
good reason.  Douglas points out that there are many instances when cash 
is all that will be accepted.  One would hate to accept a credit card 
for several million credits only to have a "stop" put on the card....  
Cash in hand means you can make a deposit elsewhere....

Which also brings to mind the entry of 6MCr into a banking system... We 
trigger taxes, reports, etc. when $10K+ is moved in our banking system, 
so what will be the response when PCs come up to the local ATM and try 
to stick in 6MCr?  How 'bout at the local branch office?  There are some 
pretty interesting questions to be answered (potentially) unless they 
also have a front company....  Otherwise you are running around with 
6MCr in cash/bearer bonds...  

This another possible device for the "bigger guns" to want to steal some 
cash from the PCs!  Let em use their big guns to defend themselves, and 
then have to answer the questions again as to why they were attacked, 
how come they had so much money...  "Rumor has it that the GravCarriers 
that have recently shifted the tide in the insurgency two systems over 
were bought for about 6MCr....  Do you know anything about that?"

What Fun!

Greg
The Count
montecristo@hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:31:39 PST
From: "Norm Ramiento" <storrm@hotmail.com>
Subject: Ads

Everyone, I apologize for the Ads. Won't see them again. Thanks.

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 08:34:11 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?

Michael Kent wrote:

>Anyone know where I can get a copy of the 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?

No such thing.

There's a Rebellion Sourcebook which deals with the 1116 assassination of
Emperor Strephon's ceremonial double and the subsequent factionalization of
the Imperium.

There's the Spinward Marches campaign, an 8.5 x 11 CT supplement that deals
with the 5th Frontier War.

And there's the game Fifth Frontier War, which includes a book that is
mostly just wargame rules.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml



- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 11:28:00 -0500
From: Bill Prankard <BPRANKARD@theiia.org>
Subject: Re: Looking for a game

>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:54:07 -0500
>From: "Jeff Fuller" <jfuller@frontiernet.net>
>Subject: Looking for a game

>I'm looking to join or start an IRC Traveller(T4) campain.
>Is anyone either running a game right now or interested in being in a 
weekly
>or bi weekly campain?


>Jeff
>jfuller@frontiernet.net

>------------------------------

I am re-starting my "Planet X" adventure and always looking for players as 
we currently only have 2 (I can sanely cope with up to 6).  We play Tuesday 
nights starting at around 8-8:30pm EST. (What a coincidence!  That's 
tonight!<G>)
We usually hang out in Undernet, but we have been thinking of moving to 
myst.net.

This is a T4/M:0 campaign centered on the Deep Space Station "Planet X". 
 Home of X-TEK industries and TML pseudo-personality Commander X.  Anything 
can happen at a self-contained corporate Starport floating in deep space 2pc 
from Sylea.  Every so often The Commander makes an appearance, and once in a 
while a personality from TML/ISBA/THUDDD shows up.  Who knows maybe Hengebar 
Spofulam himself will be spending a holiday on the station, trading ideas 
for weapons of mass destruction with the Commander?

My games tend to be heavily into mystery/espionage realm, with the 
occasional firefight/starship combat encounter.  Got to keep things 
interesting after all :)

You can be any occupation available in T4, that includes the diplomat and 
bureaucrats from M:0 as well as the occupations people have put on the web. 
 I know Scott Galliand has a few new occupations on his site.  Unfortunately 
I can't remember the URL.

You can be any race that would have been around Imperial Space in Year 20 or 
so.  Therefore Vargr are not a problem.  Zhodani and Aslan would be 
stretching it a bit. :)

So come on over to Undernet channel #traveller tonight at 8pm EST.  This 
invite goes out to anyone on TML who wants to play as well.

Hope to see you there.

Commander X

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 08:42:31 PST
From: "Norm Ramiento" <storrm@hotmail.com>
Subject: [none]

signoff traveller

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 09:19:25 -0700
From: Chris Griffen <cgriffen@cisco.com>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

douglas <douglas@teleport.com> wrote:

>There are many positive ways of channeling the players into a more
>constructive
>groove, but just 'stomping' on 'em is not the path I would choose.  This
>is not
>meant as a critism, just an observation and a remark on the variety of
>campaign
>structures that exist.  I do tend to run adventures that skirt the edge (and
>beyond) of legality, but that is where my players enjoy the game.  And, I
>don't
>know about the rest of ya, I tend to enjoy games more when the people I'm
>playing with enjoy it (tho' it's a well known fact of life in my games -
>when I
>start laughing, they are in serious, serious trouble).

I agree with you. Players should be able to skirt the boundary of legality
if they so choose, but if and when they do, they need to be aware of the
consequences. Getting caught selling illegal weaponry and vehicles would
carry a very heavy sentence, even death on the more autocratic worlds.

I try not to scare my players away from committing illegal or even immoral
acts if that's what they want to do, but they need to be aware that if they
mess up, they'll be in deep $#!+. (As a side note, the one act I will *not*
tolerate is a physical attack on another PC; PCs attacking PCs is very
hurtful to a campaign unless the attacked PC has done something extremely
bad.)

My players did not handle the consequences of their last moral dilemma too
well. The campaign ended up getting disrupted and ultimately it fell apart.
A referee can't let that deter him from making the tough call, though, even
when it means a sharp slap to the players. You end up setting a bad
precedent.

Let them take chances, but if their actions or the dice fail them, make
them pay the consequences. Besides, the consequences need not be final. Say
they *do* get caught committing a crime. The subsequent prison breakout or
"Dirty Dozen" job can make an interesting adventure.

Best,

Chris Griffen

===================================================
Keeper of the Flame. Traveller player since 1980.

http://www.best.com/~cgriffen/traveller/deneb.shtml


- --------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher Griffen                      Phone: (408) 527-7189
Cisco Systems, Inc.                      Fax:   (408) 527-0452
NMBU Technical Publications

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:52:21 -0500 (EST)
From: DustyLV769@aol.com
Subject: Re: Looking for a game

In a message dated 97-12-02 00:57:54 EST, you write:

<< Is anyone either running a game right now or interested in being in a weekly
 or bi weekly campain? >>

I would be interested in playing in such a campaign...but I am new to IRC.

Ed Jenkins (DustyLV769@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 20:15:40 +0100
From: "Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm" <jenry023@student.liu.se>
Subject: What is virus ?

Greg wrote:
>I agree.  Maybe, just maybe, by their actions they should be the ones=20
>who really released the virus!  ;->

I have been hearing this virus thing for a month or two (my entire time
with Traveller) ...

What exactly is virus ? It's clearly some kind of computer/technology
virus, but certainly not a normal one ...


Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
- ---------------------------------------------
"And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first=
 time"

Hinterlands, William Gibson
- ---------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 12:42:00 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: 5th Frontier War

On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Michael Kent wrote:

> Thanks for the various responses to my query regarding the 5th Fontier
> War sourcebook.  I've been 'out of the loop' WRT Traveller for a while.
> I'm planning a campaign set on the eve of the 5thFW, and am looking for
> background info for that time period.  I was under the impression that
> there was a sourcebook.  Am I wrong?  Could one of you recommend some
> background info, and perhaps tell me a source where I could get it?
> 
> Thanks a bunch.
> 

About the only 'sourcebook' I know for the FFW are the TNS reports
collected at the IG website. The early ones are concerned with events
occurring during the FFW. the 1105-1112 entries are concerned with the
FFW and it's aftermath, among other things. I have the majority of that
info in a text file I can send you, or make available on my web pages. It
was a compilation of TNS articles from JTAS made by Clay Bush some years
ago.


Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 11:42:15 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

At 11:48 AM 12/1/97 -0000, Justin Durkan wrote:
>Hi Folks,
>
>Got a little problem with my players. They're Munchkins. I'm running foul of
>a group of players whose first choice of equipment is PGMP or FPMG. They
>always go for the big hit at the expense of everything else. I've introduced
>various non-combative plot seeds but they players wither ignore these, or
>feel the scenario was a bore.

There are essentially two strategies, depending on the players.  Either you
attempt to reform them, or you give up on them.  Giving up does not mean
ceasing Traveller, but it does mean accepting their Munchkin nature, and
not trying anything subtle.

Look at the players.  Are they munchkins because they are immature, or
because they are into violent escapism, or are they just people who like a
good adrenaline charge in their fantasy world?

Foray: fast character generation.  I often ask the players to make a
character without random results, just to see what the system allows, and
to talk out a character concept.  To do this, I tell them their stats were
determined by rolls of 1,1,2,2,3,3,4,4,5,5,6,6.  They get 4 starting
skills, 1.25 skills a year, and they may not raise a skill unless they have
supporting skills at one less.  (e.g., someone with pilot 4 must have nav,
sensor, leader, or some other flight deck skill at 3, and another at 2, and
so on.  A single skill at two can support many threes, but makes it very
hard to learn more advanced skills without working on the fundamentals.)

Now, after they make this throwaway character, we talk.

Immature:

These can usually be rescued.  A good test is the character with a 12 Dex,
10 Str, 8 End, 6 Int, 4 Edu, and 2 Soc.  If the 30 year old has FGMP 5,
Rifle 4, Tactics 3, Brawling 3, Demolitions 2, and Survival 1, then I can
usually state with confidence that we have a Munchkin.

I remind the person that their low Soc indicates an inability to handle
either society or money beyond a certain level, and also makes them a babe
in the woods as far as finance, lending, and other economic machinery goes.
 Also, they have no academic ties in most cases.  (Soc 2 is the bottom 3%,
remember.)

We then discuss how the character is going to get by without a plasma gun.
He certainly will not have the money for one.  Often, they claim that they
will be working for the Noble, which the other Munchkin is playing.

Further, we discuss the criminal record that such a violent past may
indicate.  If he tells me the person is a valorous marine, I point out that
his low social standing makes significant recognition unlikely, so he might
want to be a bitter valorous marine.

Usually, about this point, the extremes get filed off, leaving only one or
two.  For example, the player will usually keep the unrecognized valorous
machine unfairly cashiered for blasting hundreds of Mekton natives into
plasma.

Then, we discuss play.

In general, karma in the world, and what goes around will come around
eventually.  This sometimes leads to somewhat bizarre actions on the part
of the players, but since they can act however they please and suffer the
consequences, it usually works.  For example, they will often be somewhat
motivated to interfere with local matters, but will balance it with self
interest.

Players who cannot deal with the standards of morality in the world do not
have fun in my games.  Rapine and torture are not used often, as they annoy
me, and it comes out in play.  Rather than just be annoyed, I tell them up
front that it offends me, so if they are going to do it, do it as carefully
as you would in a good novel.  Casual violence is casually stopped.

NB, I did have a sociopath character once who was attracted to murder,
rape, and torture.  The others knew it, and kept the character in line.  A
morbid but fun series of adventures resulted when they slipped up and he
killed a girl.  They then had to decide whether they rescued him, how they
should react, what they owed the family, etc.  They ended up signing him up
for some rather gruesome treatments to alter his personality.

The player in question and I had agreed in advance that he could certainly
scheme all he wanted, and he might just succeed.  If he did, though, the
forces of law and order might just hang him.  He thought this was a
fantastic end to the character, and a great start of a new one in the same
body.  Once they treated him, he was a very different person, who had some
of the old skills, some new ones, and all sorts of interesting personality
problems.

Adrenaline junkies, or violent escapism:

Now, what do you do if the players like destruction?  They might be mature,
but they like to game on an 8th grade level?

If they are ok with it, and willing to play complicated killers, I allow
them to do so.  They might be parts of a merc band.  They might be
assassins.  In any event, they are going to be busy.  They are expected to
be very aware of the consequences, and that they can kill all they want, as
long as it is the enemy, and not the bystanders that get flattened.

This can be fun, because we then alternate assignments, where the slaughter
can be extreme, with interaction, where it can not.  They are on liberty,
without weapons, and know they can be jailed.  Or they are on leave at
home, and they left the weapons behind.  If these are interesting, the
character of the game can change.

Anyone running under hack and slash rules is unprotected, in that i will
feel free to kill them if the dice say so.  Generally, players find it hard
to die in my games, because they get several warnings.  I do not believe in
killing people off for bad dice, but I will kill them for stupid behaviors.
 (A stupid behavior is a repeated unwise behavior in which you did not
learn appropriately from the visible consequences.)

An example - in a game I only watched, a DM had a couple of people who were
all from the same small village.  The villagers ended up betraying their
village in the first session, and were then caught and hung by the Watch.
As the new characters were riding out of town, they saw a notice posted on
the town hall of an upcoming hanging, but declined to attend.

Giving up:

Sometimes, players want to run a different kind of game  They want to see
nukes going off, battle cruisers flying by, and all that good space opera
stuff.  I have had fun running those, but that is an unusual kind of game,
and the players still do not see a lot of action, because I find it hard to
make the tenth battle as interesting as the first.  As a result, even my
space operas have a lot of gun pointing, but not as much gun firing.

>What I'm looking for is a little twist in the tale to a hack and slay type
>scenario. Something that leaves the palyers satisfied with having killed
>something but adds a non-combative pull/push/enigma etc. that might appeal
>to munchkins.

As I said, it depends on why.  If they want to play assassin or merc games,
they are valid genres.  They are not mine, though.  If they just do not
enjoy the other, you can usually bring it in.

For example - after some slayfest, they are arrested, fined, and then told
that they may either serve at hard labor, or they can go kill a bad guy.
The catch - the bad guy is real popular, and has some lily-white friends,
so they need incontrovertible proof before doing so.  Threats do not work,
so they are left with skulking.

Posit that they are on a planet searching for something, and they cannot
take the usual destruction gear.  They need to talk their way into the
place where the gun battle can happen.

Perhaps they need to work as honest crew on a ship to get somewhere.

Maybe an NPC falls for a gunslinger who is better than he is, but retired.

>I'm basically trying to ween the players away from the kill-em, rob-em, next
>victim mentality. Basic D&D (way way back in the mists of time) has a lot to
>answer for.

Once you get them thinking about how to arrange their slayfests, you are
most of the way towards making those the climactic sessions, which only
happen one week in ten.  I play that way - when the guns come out, things
are problematic.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 14:20:18 -0600
From: Sam Thomas <sinbad@dfw.net>
Subject: Re: Looking for a game

At 11:28 AM 12/2/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 20:54:07 -0500
>>From: "Jeff Fuller" <jfuller@frontiernet.net>
>>Subject: Looking for a game
>
>>I'm looking to join or start an IRC Traveller(T4) campain.
>>Is anyone either running a game right now or interested in being in a 
>weekly
>>or bi weekly campain?
>
>
>>Jeff
>>jfuller@frontiernet.net
>
>>------------------------------
>
>I am re-starting my "Planet X" adventure and always looking for players as 
>we currently only have 2 (I can sanely cope with up to 6).  We play Tuesday 
>nights starting at around 8-8:30pm EST. (What a coincidence!  That's 
>tonight!<G>)
>We usually hang out in Undernet, but we have been thinking of moving to 
>myst.net.
>
>This is a T4/M:0 campaign centered on the Deep Space Station "Planet X". 
> Home of X-TEK industries and TML pseudo-personality Commander X.  Anything 
>can happen at a self-contained corporate Starport floating in deep space 2pc 
>from Sylea.  Every so often The Commander makes an appearance, and once in a 
>while a personality from TML/ISBA/THUDDD shows up.  Who knows maybe Hengebar 
>Spofulam himself will be spending a holiday on the station, trading ideas 
>for weapons of mass destruction with the Commander?
>
>My games tend to be heavily into mystery/espionage realm, with the 
>occasional firefight/starship combat encounter.  Got to keep things 
>interesting after all :)
>
>You can be any occupation available in T4, that includes the diplomat and 
>bureaucrats from M:0 as well as the occupations people have put on the web. 
> I know Scott Galliand has a few new occupations on his site.  Unfortunately 
>I can't remember the URL.
>
>You can be any race that would have been around Imperial Space in Year 20 or 
>so.  Therefore Vargr are not a problem.  Zhodani and Aslan would be 
>stretching it a bit. :)
>
>So come on over to Undernet channel #traveller tonight at 8pm EST.  This 
>invite goes out to anyone on TML who wants to play as well.
>
>Hope to see you there.

Commander X

Just remember that Commander X truely thrives on the *offbeat* character
types. Strange characters are the norm, Bizzare is better.<G>;-)

"Quick engage the Black Globe, activate Inertial comp overdrive, bring both
powerplants online, push thruster plates to 12g's, prepare for incoming
fire, activate hull chameleon, change Transponder to ID us as a *peaceful*
Vargr Trader shipping first aide, and food supplies to IRAQ/Solomani/Sol."


 
- -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-
(c)1997 Sam Thomas  |Email:sinbad@dfw.net|
Sinbad Sam, Owner and Operator of Sinbad Sam's Saloon 
Chief Weapons Designer For Reddkneck Arms and Munitions
- -----------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:12:15 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: 5th Frontier War

Michael,

I have a copy of a book called the Spinward Marches Campaign. It details the
5 FW in the spinward marches, According to the back cover it contains maps
of the Spinward Marches, History of the 5 FW, details the 154th Battle Rider
Squadron, details the 4518th Lift Infantry Regiments, and some other stuff.
It appears to be a source type book with an adventure thread running through
it. If this sounds like the book you are looking for please email me in
private.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
To: TML <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 1:19 PM
Subject: 5th Frontier War


>Thanks for the various responses to my query regarding the 5th Fontier
>War sourcebook.  I've been 'out of the loop' WRT Traveller for a while.
>I'm planning a campaign set on the eve of the 5thFW, and am looking for
>background info for that time period.  I was under the impression that
>there was a sourcebook.  Am I wrong?  Could one of you recommend some
>background info, and perhaps tell me a source where I could get it?
>
>Thanks a bunch.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:49:34 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Spofustuff

	Ok... I won't be able to get all the various Famille Spofulam bits
and pieces collated into one big document until Saturday PM at the least.
If anyone wants it, please email me privately, and I'll just do one honking
big mailing...

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 15:26:33 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Sayat Annex now open

The Traveller Language Development List is now sharing webspace with the
Sayat... yes, containment measures are in place to minimize contamination.

There's a link to the main "Contact" article on _Freelance Traveller_, a
pair of minor alien affiliates of the Concourse, stellar system writeups,
NPCs, a starship, a robot, two sex toys, and a gun:  the raw, heady essence
of interstellar civilization.

<http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/sayat.html>

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:07:33 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is virus ?

Jens asked, roughly,=20

>What exactly IS this virus thing anyway?

Ahhhh...you missed a lot then.

In the Canon GDW history (as explained in "Survival Margin"), the
transponders used in the late Imperium were actually sentient microchips
derived from the silicon life forms from Cymbelline introduced in the
classic Trav adventure 'Signal GK'.=20

They were autonomous life forms that exchanged data continuously with
each other comparing the state of the ships they were attached to. In
order that they could accurately do so, they were tied into all the ships
systems.

Meanwhile, after the Rebellion started, some of Lucan's scientists started
playing with a variant of the Cymbelline chips, ones that could 'imprint'
themselves on other Cymbelline chips long distance, via radio, and take
over the other chips.

These were closer to the wild sentient chips in that they could readily
re-wire their own circuitry, once established.

Lucan's people wanted a 'humane' weapon that could invade enemy ships via
long distance, and take control of the systems on board the enemy's ship,
rendering it useless to the enemy, and letting Lucan's fleets win without
a fight.

At this point, the winning without a fight part was far more important
than any 'humane' aspect. Lucan fully intended on taking the ships he
aquirred in this fashion and re-flagging themin his fleets, thus fixing
two of the biggest problems facing all of the factions in 1120: The
horrendous loss of ships in battle, and great difficulties inreplacing
them.

Dulinor's last Core fleet overran the research station where this was
being worked on, and released this 'virus', coined for it's similarity to
biological and computer viruses, into their fleet.

BIG problem...the thing was _not_ controllable. At the first jump, a
third of Dulinor's fleet misjumped, and on the second, another third.
Dulionor's own flagship came under the control of a virus and tried to
deliberately crash itself on a planet.

The virus could transmit itself via any radio signal, and, stretching the
imaginations of many, enter a ship via things like sensors.

It spread like wildfire throughout the Imperium, wreaking havok
everywhere, ships crashed themselves, traffuc control systems ran vehicles
into each other, buildings and the ground,. Dulinor himself was killed by
a robotic reaper that mowed him down.

This brought the technologically dependent Imperium to a horrific crash.
the virus mutated into a true lifeform, Virus, with a number of variants.
In a computer system of enough complexity, Virus could be extremely
intelligent.

The inspiration for Virus clearly descends from SF such as Fred
Saberhagen's Berserker series.

Many MANY people have a huge problem with Virus, to the extent of
proclaiming that this was what caused GDW to go under, even.

Their objections tend to follow a few lines:

1)No computer virus could do this to so many diverse systems.

(Well, it's not a comuter virus, per se. Any experience you have with
something like PSYCO MOnkey-B or somesuch will prepare you for dealing
with Virus like having experience with fighting bears will prepare you for
an epidemic of Ebola. In retrospect GDW erred in calling it Virus)

2)There's no way something could 'infect' another system through a signal
it recieved.

(In Survival Margin, Virus is described as "A life form that moves through
computing circuitry like a fish moves through water". again, a strained
analogy...it's more like Virus is something that possesses or inhabits (in
the demonic sense) computing technology.=20

3)GDW used this to destroy the beautiful Imperium setting irrevocably and
introduced the vile heresy that was Traveller-The New Era.(TNE)

(Repeat after me: "its only a game...It's only a game...)

It got worse from there. Suffice it to say, there's a _reason_ the
standard TML curse involves 'Virus ridden near C rocks' as some of the
highest volume, nastiest, most emotional flamewars ever to have sprouted
on this list revolved around Virus.=20

The canon explanation and descriptions of Virus are in: "Survival Margin",
the TNE main book, and the "Vampire Fleets" which was the Virus
sourcebook.

Personally, I like the concept; my main problem with the TNE setting was
the compressed timelines that were employed in the setting, as the long
night that follwed the Crash should have lasted several hundred years
rather than the 75 they said.

This is all I'll say on the matter as I'm sure there are flamethrowers
being warmed up as I write.=20

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

>=20
>=20
> Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm  (Link=F6ping, Sweden)
> ---------------------------------------------
> "And I froze there, crouching in the small of plastique from the bolts,
> because that was when the Fear found me, really found me, for the first t=
ime"
>=20
> Hinterlands, William Gibson
> ---------------------------------------------
>=20

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2141
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 3 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2142



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

a weird moment
Re: What is virus ?
(LONG!) Re: Tech Level Ideas 
Re:  I need a plot device...
Re: 5th Frontier War
Re: What is virus ?
Re: What is virus ?
Auction: Updated 
Re:  Tech Levels
Re: I need a plot device...
Re: Sword Worlders
Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)
Re: Virus -- This wasn't the way it was!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:11:21 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: a weird moment

I was waiting to cross the street in Berkeley this morning, and saw a
bus across the street with a big advertisement on its side.  The ad
showed some very nice long- and medium-stemmed glasses and some
Christmas tree baubles on a black background.  On the right in big red
letters was the word:  "GURPS"

I thought, what the hell is that -- GURPS Christmas Party? 

Then I realized that it was GUMPS, not GURPS.  Anyway, it was a weird
moment that no one I know except my colleagues on this list would
understand.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 16:54:18 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: What is virus ?

At 08:15 PM 12/2/97 +0100, you wrote:
>Greg wrote:
>>I agree.  Maybe, just maybe, by their actions they should be the ones 
>>who really released the virus!  ;->
>
>I have been hearing this virus thing for a month or two (my entire time
>with Traveller) ...
>
>What exactly is virus ? It's clearly some kind of computer/technology
>virus, but certainly not a normal one ...

Ah.

Virus was the plot device GDW (Traveller's original publisher) used to end
the Rebellion and usher in Traveller: The New Era.

Basically, it is an intellegent computer virus that modifies itself to move
from system to system.  It (originally) had one directive: Kill.  Virus was
released prematurely during the last major push of the Rebellion, and
spread rapidly, ending Imperial civilation within a few years.

Virus-infected ships (called Vampires) survived, as did countless
instalations, research computers, etc.  As the decades passed, the more
violent strains of Virus died off, and they reached true sentience.

Virus is probably the most hotly debated concept in Traveller.  Some people
liked it, some hated it with a passion.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 18:04:09 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: (LONG!) Re: Tech Level Ideas 

At 10:04 pm 12/1/97 -0600, you wrote:
>Hi Folks!
>
>Thanks for the many replies.  I haven't had a chance to go
through them in
>detail yet, but I am, however something I've noticed...
>
>>Hi, I liked the MT/WBH tech level system:
>
>>I like the WBH approach. It groups TL into areas that player
characters
>>actually buy. 
>
>>	From my favoritest MT supplement:
>
>Ah yes!  The legendary WBH rears it's head.  ;-> 
>
>_World Builder's Handbook_, which I don't have, and have been looking for
>since I learned of it's existence when I started paying attention to
>Traveller again in the later TNE days.  I know better than to ask if anyone
>wants to sell their copy, or for anyone to violate copyright, either. 
>However...would it be possible/legal for one of the "honored ones" to post
>a summary of how WBH extends things like TL..not to mention GL, LL, etc?

	I suppose _just_ covering the tech level stuff (5 pages out of
~100) won't be a copyright violation ... ask and ye shall receive

Format is CB-CDCCB-BBBC-CA-D

High Common
Low Common
  -
Energy
Computer/Robotics
Communications
Medical
Environment
  -
Land Transport
Water Transport
Air Transport
Space Transport
  -
Personal Military
Heavy Military
  -
Novelty

	High common: "... highest level of technology commonly enjoyed
by the world's population  ... typically encountered near the
starport and in most modern urban areas ... listed in the world's
UWP stats"
	Low common: "... the level of technology enjoyed by the bulk of
the world's population ... minimum TL the character can always
find on the world no matter where they go ..."

	Achievement TLs: " ... represent the best technology the world
has been able to achieve locally ... where [it] exceeds the high
common [TL], ... represents the forefront of technological
research ... not yet available to the general population."
Divided into Quality of Life (energy production,
computers/robotics, communications, medical, environmental),
Transportation (land, water, air, space), and Military (personal
and heavy)


	Novelty TL: " ... may sometimes be found on the world, but is
far from common ... can be artifacts of a previous (sometimes
more highly advanced) culture), imported goods ..., or local
experimental prototypes."

	A few specific comments:
	Energy: ability to make use of energy; fundamental to many
others.
	Land Transportation: Once grav tech is reached, land, sea & air
merge.
	Space Transportation: represents local achievements in space
travel; independent of gravitics ...
	Personal Military: personnel-carried weapons and armor
	Heavy Military: long-range, vehicle-oriented weapons and armor


TL MODIFIER TABLE (used in various sections)

     2D  TL Mod
      2   -1D
      3   -2
      4   -1
     5-9  --
      10  +1
      11  +2
      12  +1D

HIGH COMMON
World UWP TL

LOW COMMON
Max: High Common
Min: High Common/2 (drop fractions)

Low Common= High Common + TL Modifier + Population Modifier +
Global Extensiveness Modifier

Population Modifier: +1 if pop 5-, -1 if pop 9+
Global Extensiveness: +1 if monolithic, -1 if discordant, -2 if
fragmented

ENERGY TL
Max: High Common + High Common/5 (drop fractions)
Min: High Common/2 (drop fractions)

Energy TL= High Common + TL Modifier

COMPUTER/ROBOTICS TL
Max: Energy Max
Min: Max/3 (drop fractions)

Computer/Robotics TL= High Common + TL Modifier + Population
Modifier

COMMUNICATIONS TL
Max: Energy Max
Min: Max/3 (drop fractions)

Communications TL=Computer/Robotics TL + TL Modifier

MEDICAL TL
Max: Energy Max
Min: 0

Medical TL = Computer/Robotics TL + TL Modifier + Interstellar
Extensiveness Modifier

Interstellar Extensiveness Modifier: +1 if xenophilic

ENVIRONMENT TL
Max: Energy Max
Min: Max-5

Environment TL=High Common TL + TL Modifier + Atmosphere Modifier
+ Hydrosphere Modifier

Atmosphere Modifier: if not atm 5, 6 or 8, +1
Hydrosphere Modifier: if hyd 0 or 10, +1

LAND TRANSPORT TL
Max: Energy Max
Min: Max-5

Land Transport TL=Energy TL + TL Modifier + Hydrosphere Modifier2

Hydrosphere Modifier2: if 10, -1

WATER TRANSPORT TL
Max: Land Transport TL
Min: Max-5
If Land Transport TL>(gravitics TL; 10 in MT), Water Transport
TL=Land Transport TL

Water Transport TL: Land Transport TL + TL Modifier + Hydrosphere
Modifier2

AIR TRANSPORT TL
Max: 9, unless Land Transport TL>= 10
Min: Max-5, never less than 2
If Land Transport TL>(gravitics TL; 10 in MT), Air Transport
TL=Land Transport TL

SPACE TRANSPORT TL
Max: Energy Max
Min: Energy-3

Space Transport TL= Lower of (Energy or Computer/Robotics) + TL
Modifier + Starport Modifier + Interstellar Extensiveness
Modifier

Starport Modifier: +1 if A or B
Interstellar Extensiveness Modifier: +1 if friendly or
xenophilic, -1 if aloof or xenophobic

PERSONAL MILITARY TL
Max: Energy Max
Min: 0

Personal Military TL= Energy TL + TL Modifier + Aggressiveness
Attitude Modifier + Aggressiveness Action Modifier

Aggressiveness Attitude Modifier: +1 if expansionistic, -2 if
passive
Aggressiveness Action Modifier: +1 if militant, -1 if
conciliatory

HEAVY MILITARY TL
Max: Energy Max
Min: 0

Heavy Military TL= Energy TL + TL Modifier + Aggressiveness
Attitude Modifier + Aggressiveness Action Modifier


NOVELTY TL
Novelty Import TL=highest UWP among "nearest" class A starports
UNLESS this world has starport=X, then 0
Local Prototype TL=highest achievement TL
Prior Culture TL=referee choice

Novelty TL is highest of these three.


FINALLY: An offer--my copy of WBH is sliced apart and three-ring
bound, so it's easy to photocopy. I believe Roger Sanger (sp?),
who's around somewhere on the net, purchased all the rights to
DGP material. Get a written statement from him telling me it's ok
to photocopy this for personal, non-profit use, and I'll be happy
to do so.
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:42:02 -0700
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Re:  I need a plot device...

I once had a similar problem with a friend of mine, and this is one ploy I
used to "make" him start to use his brain rather than his handy hand-cannon.

In the course of what seemed to be another "shoot-em-up," I had him come
into contact with a biological agent; not too tough, especially if your
players are into breaking things. There was no clue as to what the agent
was, but all the circumstancial evidence that it was extremely leathal.

Suddenly, like it or not, your players are forced to start thinking about
how not to die from some nasty "bug." Granted, they may be fairly heavy
handed in their dealings with the scientists who MIGHT have some clue as to
what it was - or even better a cure - but you can bet that they'll think
twice before shooting their only hope of salvation.

Of course, I also added another slight twist at the end when he finally
discovered what the agent was... He'd never even gotten infected.


Schoon

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 21:08:23 -0500 (EST)
From: pould@netcom.ca (Daniel Poulin)
Subject: Re: 5th Frontier War

Like many of us mentioned, the closest thing is the Spinward Marches 
sourcebook that details the Fifth Frontier War.  I use that book in all 
my new groups (this is my third group now - I move a lot around the 
country) and I always start these groups in 1105.  If you have 
imagination you can build the tension up to the war and the conflict 
between Santanocheev and Norris, with Naval officers taking side along 
the way.  This is truly a great book.

Daniel Poulin
pould@netcom.ca

You wrote: 
>
>Thanks for the various responses to my query regarding the 5th Fontier
>War sourcebook.  I've been 'out of the loop' WRT Traveller for a while.
>I'm planning a campaign set on the eve of the 5thFW, and am looking for
>background info for that time period.  I was under the impression that
>there was a sourcebook.  Am I wrong?  Could one of you recommend some
>background info, and perhaps tell me a source where I could get it?
>
>Thanks a bunch.
>

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 18:23:30 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: What is virus ?

On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm wrote:

> What exactly is virus ? It's clearly some kind of computer/technology
> virus, but certainly not a normal one ...

A sourcebook on Virus or the Vampire Fleets was released in the TNE line. 
The Vampire Fleets sourcebook also had the most recent robot construction
rules (FFS 1st Ed. supplement).  You might be able to get a copy of the
relevant sourcebook(s) from Far Future Enterprises (FarFuture@aol.com), or
some other source.  TNE books are still pretty common among dealers with
back stock.

The FAQ for this list (http://www.spirit.net.au/~jamesd/tml-faq.html) 
advises against starting threads on Virus, citing past flamewars, so I'll
limit my response to what is hopefully a neutral description.  Someone may
want to point out Virus resources online; I don't know any. 

Unless I'm mistaken, it's essentially a silicon-based life form which can
be used as a computer processor, and which is capable of rewriting its own
physical circuit pathways.  The Imperium's computers were already built
using the life forms.  One day Lucan released sentient versions of the
lifeform that were homicidal, and could make their non-sentient brethren
sentient and homicidal as well by communicating with them through standard
media.  Lucan thought that they were controllable, but this theory proved
false.  Thus, the 3rd Imperium was annihalated by hordes of its own
automated weapons systems.  Virus-infected units later (by the New Era
period) developed a more complex psychology on their own, and remained a
significant threat to re-emergent civilizations in and around the area
formerly occupied by the 3rd Imperium.

The GURPS version of Traveller is going to pretend that it never existed,
from what I understand, thus creating an "alternative" milieu of sorts.


Clark

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 20:48:09 -0600 (CST)
From: Joseph "Chepe" Lockett <jlockett@io.com>
Subject: Re: What is virus ?

Quoth Jens 'Spacejens' Rydholm:
> I have been hearing this virus thing for a month or two (my entire time
> with Traveller).  What exactly is virus ? It's clearly some kind of
> computer/technology virus, but certainly not a normal one...

Hoo, boy.  You may not realize what a dangerous topic that is.... :-)

Virus (capital v) is the central idea behind the Traveller: The New Era
setting, the third version of the game and the last published by the now
defunct Game Designers Workshop.  The publication of that version of the
game split this list wide open between admirers and detractors, and
there's still some bad blood evident now and then.

Basically, as I understood it, Virus was a highly-classified "Black War"
weapon devised in the last days of the Imperium-destroying Rebellion that
broke out after Strephon's assassination (which had, in turn, been the
impetus for MegaTraveller, the second rules-set for the RPG).  It relied
on the self-modifying nature of high-tech computer systems and the open
but secret channel created by a standard transponder (IFF) system in all
Imperial ships and Imperial trading partners.  Basically, a computer
infested with Virus would communicate through transponders or other data
channels (hardwired, beam, or broadcast) to spread itself into any other
available system.  Once there, it altered circuit pathways to become a
permanent part of the system, surviving through reboots or any other
attempts to extricate it.

The problem was, Virus wasn't controllable -- or, at least, it was
released accidentally, during a deep strike in the last days of the
Rebellion, before it was made controllable.  Sweeping in waves across the
Imperium and its trading partners (and, eventually, enemies and others),
a wave of newly-artifically-intelligent computers in starships, life-
support systems, scientific centers, and anywhere else with processing
power began committing suicide or, worse, destroying large numbers of
sophonts before suiciding (Virus had been a secret weapon for the War,
remember, designed to take out materiel).

A miniature Dark Age (disparagingly called the Short Nap by some) settled
over the Imperium as almost all high technology failed.  The saga of the
New Era was that of the Star Vikings, struggling to rebuild amidst anti-
technological paranoia, blighted and abandoned planets, and the still-
extant Vampires, starships and other machines still infested by wilier
strains of Virus.

Some like it, some didn't.  It marked the end of the canonical timeline of
Traveller history, and may eventually be revisted as Milieu: 1200.

- ----------------------------*------------------------*------------------------
 Joseph L. "Chepe" Lockett  |"Nullum magnum ingenium | GURPS fan, Amiga user,
http://www.io.com/~jlockett | sine mixtura dementiae | Shakespearean scholar,
  Email: jlockett@io.com    | fuit." -- Seneca       | actor and director.

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 02 Dec 1997 20:48:07 -0500
From: Craig Janssen <daili@remove.me.gate.net>
Subject: Auction: Updated 

I have put up the newest bids.

You can see the high bids on the WWW page:

http://www.gate.net/~daili/auction.htm

Thanks,

Craig Janssen

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 97 00:00:53 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re:  Tech Levels

On 11/30/97 at 02:27 PM,  bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) said:

>You might consider less functional groupings and more fundamental ones.

I have, but doing so gets complicated very quickly.

>For example, rather than having both lasers and slugthrowers lumped under
>"weapons", you could have "physics" or "optics" goeoverning lasers,
>"metallurgy" or "machinery" governing slugthrowers, etc. 

Yep, that's my point, it can't *just* be physics it's physics and optics
and chemistry breaks down into organic, inorganic, and biochemistry, then
there is metallurgy and so many engineering specialties I won't even get
started. Where, oh where, do you make the breaks? 

I'll grant you that it's more realistic, and reminds me of Sid Mier's
Civilization which I love, but it goes beyond the workable.

George Herbert's list...

># Areas:
># 	The Sciences:
># 		Biology
># 		Chemistry
># 		Mathematics
># 		Physics (Mathematics)
># 
># 	Technologies:
># 		Aerospace (Physics, Materials Science)
># 		Civil Engineering (Physics, Materials Science)
># 		Computers (Mathematics, Materials Science)
># 		Gravitics (Physics, Materials Science)
># 		Materials Science (Physics, Chemistry)
># 		Medical (Biology, Chemistry, Physics)
># 		Power Sources (Physics, Chemistry, Materials Science)

....look really good as a compromise between trying to cover everything in
detail and having a few broad general functional areas. They cover the
fundimental areas with the Science segment, and the functional areas with
the Technologies.  We'd have to rate a society in all 11 areas, and that's
a lot given that we currently only have *1* TL. ;->

Reviewing George's list, I can't help feeling that *something* is missing.
I can't quite put my finger on what, though.  Maybe it's his listing
Computers rather than Electronics.

Computers are, it seems to me, a sub-technology, although a *very*
important one. The more general technologies involved are Electronics and
Information Technology, and IT is so algorithmic I'd group it in with
Mathematics.

And it might be better to put Aerospace under some kind of "Motive
Technology" grouping it in with ground and water transport. Not sure...

Anyway, lots of good ideas are turning up.


Eris
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 01:10:41 -0500 (EST)
From: SemoFetus@aol.com
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

>I agree with you. Players should be able to skirt the boundary of legality
>if they so choose, but if and when they do, they need to be aware of the
>consequences. Getting caught selling illegal weaponry and vehicles would
>carry a very heavy sentence, even death on the more autocratic worlds.

I agree with you and with Douglas on this.  What alot of people that
responded to this thread seem to have forgotten is:  when all is said and
done, it really is the players' game.  The GM has to be responsive to the
desires of the players, and the players have to have a sense for the kind of
game that the GM runs, and the directions he wants to take the party in.

The balance can't just be changed by saying, "I'm the game master, that's
why!", or creating bad blood between you and your players by going hog wild
and killing off characters.

My advice is this:  Sit down and talk with the players and tell them you
don't like the direction the game is heading, and explain to them the
direction you want to go in.  Reward the use of brainpower over brawn _in_
game play.  Even if the players come up with good ideas that don't work, make
sure they know that the idea was a good one.  I try to reward the best idea
in the gaming session with an extra experience point (under T4 rules), but
don't overuse it.

Come up with reasons _why_ the players will have a difficult time buying
heavy weapons and armor.  At the beginning of the game I'm currently running,
someone inquired about getting a suit of battle dress and a PGMP.  I
explained first the relatively high price of a mercenary charter.  Some of
the players decided that the heavy weapons would be worth the high price.
 Then I explained that the Imperium checks up on mercenary units from time to
time to make sure that they are gainfully employed and doing legitimate
mercenary work.  I told them that this would take the game in a different
direction then I had hoped, _but_ if the players wanted to become mercenaries
I'd let them and have no problem with it.  The players informally voted on it
and decided they didn't want to be mercenaries.

The other balancing factor is law levels.  Make sure your PCs pay attention
to them.  My group never lands on a planet without asking about the
government type and law level.  If the law level says that assault weapons
are prohibited, then assault weapons are prohibited and someone carrying
around something like a PGMP will be arrested even if he gives the weapon up.

Imagine someone getting off of a plane to New York city with a LAW and an
assault rifle and you'll see what I mean.

The group I play with is pretty experienced as far as roleplaying goes, my
brother has been playing RPGs since the blue book D&D basic set, and another
player (my best friend) has been RPGing with me for about 11 years or so.
 The others I've played with a good bit over about the last four or five
years.  I've seen the group mature, and they have become more of a thinking
man's party.  The last major munchkin tendency seemed to die off before I
started running the game (one player was legendary, and I mean legendary for
completely destroying games, but he told me before we started playing that
he'd be a good boy because he realized that no one was running games because
of him) and things have gone pretty smoothly.  So I guess I'm pretty lucky
that I have good players to work with.

The final note of advice is this:  Write interesting adventures, play NPCs
intelligently (there was once an editorial in Dragon about "Tucker's Kobolds"
which is nigh unto legendary in my gaming group.  To distill it, the guy had
said that a DM playing kobolds right could make them a menace to even
experienced high level adventurers) and don't let the players walk all over
you.  If the players are acting like bloodthirsty psychopaths, then let
society treat them like psychopaths.  Traveller requires a suspension of
disbelief for an interstellar imperium to work.  Even so, I find it hard to
believe a party could get off of a ship in a world ,with any law level but
the most lenient ones, carrying PGMPs and not be stopped by the police, local
militia, local army, what have you...

Just some thoughts.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 22:45:36 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Re: Sword Worlders

>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 08:26:24 -0700 (MST)
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>Subject: Re: Sword Worlders

>On Sun, 30 Nov 1997, Scott Nolan wrote:

>>The U.S. gave very little in the way actual hardware to Israel before the
>>early 50's, and yet Israel still beat a much larger British-trained Arab
>>legion, armed with then-modern weapons and armored vehicles.  They were
>>more motivated and better lead.  Leadership and supply are the keys, here.

>Not to mention _damned_ good intelligence, and a real sense of having
>their backs to the wall, which would be a very good description of the
>Sword Worlders and the Zhodani. The Israeli's also beat them using
>mostly small unit guerilla tactics which have consistently beat large
>standing armies every time. In later conflicts the Israelis made damn sure
>they had air superiority, which will make a large armor force extremely
>vulnerable.

The Israeli's only really used small unit tactics was during the 1948 war,
which was more lost by the Arabs rather than won by the Israeli's. The
Israeli's had the Haganah, several brigades trained by the British which had
seen action during the 1942 invasion of Syria (a very hard fight) and in the
desert war. The only competent Arab force was the Arab Legion (Jordan), but
this was only a reinforced brigade and was hamstrung when the British stopped
suppling ammunition and parts; and withdrew all their seconded officers (still
the Legion gave the Israeli's a *very* tough fight in Jerusalem). Plus the
Israeli's were helped by the atrocities of the IZL and Stern Gang in Deir
Yassin which lead to the flight of much of the Palastinian population.
In 1956 the Israeli's had built up a large conventional conscript army, whilst
none of the Arab nations (with the exception of Jordan) had an effective army.
The 1956 war was basically Israeli, France and Britian Vs Egypt; and not
suprisingly, Eqypt lost. The war lasted 7 days and none of the other Arab
nations could intervene to help Egypt.
In the six day war (1967) the Israeli's launched another pre-emptive strike
which wiped out the Arab nations airforces and the Arabs still had not built
effective armies (with the exception of Jordan, who proved a tough nut to
crack even with absolute air superiority).
In 1973 the Egyptians had finally built the beginnings of an effective army
and found an answer to the previously invincible IDF Air Force (massed SAM
fire) and had discovered how to fool Israeli intelligence (the best place to
hide a tree is in a forest). Plus the Israeli's had gotten sloppy, over
confident and badly underestimated their enemy. The result was the Israeli's
got their bottoms badly kicked in the early stages and had to actually fight
to win this time. The result was the peace with Egypt in 1978 because the
Israeli's knew next time they might lose.

ObTrav: The Sword Worlds position is much more like Egypt in 1973 than
Israel. The Imperium has badly underestimated them, the SW have been posturing
towards war for awhile without doing anything (leading to the Imperium
thinking it's just bluff and posturing). They've been conducting a "War of
Attrition" (1968-73) with pirates and guerillas in D268 and Lunion.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 12:57:21 +0100 (MET)
From: Tommy Grav <tommy.grav@astro.uio.no>
Subject: Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Glenn Hoppe wrote:

> Ethan Henry wrote:
> > 
> > Interesting. Although it may be of marginal use unless your players'
> > characters spend a lot time (in-game) reading "Consumers Reports" and
> > such.
> 
> heh. true.

But what else is there to do during the jump :-)

Tommy Grav                  tommy.grav@astro.uio.no    
Institute of Astrophysics   http://www.uio.no/~tommygr/
University in Oslo          "If you value your lives, be somwhere 
Norway                       else!" - Ambassador Delenn B5 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:21:10 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Virus -- This wasn't the way it was!

On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:24:43 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:07:33 -0700 (MST)
>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>Subject: Re: What is virus ?
>
>Jens asked, roughly,=20
>
>>What exactly IS this virus thing anyway?
>
>Ahhhh...you missed a lot then.
>
>In the Canon GDW history (as explained in "Survival Margin"), the
>transponders used in the late Imperium were actually sentient microchips
>derived from the silicon life forms from Cymbelline introduced in the
>classic Trav adventure 'Signal GK'.=20
>
>They were autonomous life forms that exchanged data continuously with
>each other comparing the state of the ships they were attached to. In
>order that they could accurately do so, they were tied into all the ships
>systems.
>
>Meanwhile, after the Rebellion started, some of Lucan's scientists started
>playing with a variant of the Cymbelline chips, ones that could 'imprint'
>themselves on other Cymbelline chips long distance, via radio, and take
>over the other chips.
>
>These were closer to the wild sentient chips in that they could readily
>re-wire their own circuitry, once established.

All this is true.

>Lucan's people wanted a 'humane' weapon that could invade enemy ships via
>long distance, and take control of the systems on board the enemy's ship,
>rendering it useless to the enemy, and letting Lucan's fleets win without
>a fight.

Unfortunately, this is where you depart from my understanding of "Canon" as
described in Survival Margin. The problem is that the Cymbeline chips were only
used in the *Transponders* of starships ... and all Transponders do is *report*
data, they are not actively tied into the ships systems in a way that would
affect them (not in any sensible universe, that is). Even if you allow that the
Cymbeline Transponder chips could reprogram *themselves*, Survival Margin makes
the claim that they can somehow -- by radio, nonetheless -- change previously
non-sentient, non-"living", non-*Cymbeline* chips into "living", "sentient",
"Cymbeline" chips. This is like saying that I can turn *you* into a hamster by
transmitting the DNA code of a Hamster to you via email! Quite ridiculous.

The perfect defence against Virus, in any world where the writers had some idea
of how computers (and evolution, for that matter) worked would have been simply
to cut the transponder circuit out of the link and then power down the computers
to kill off any software "infection" and reboot them from "clean" (probably
read-only) media.

>At this point, the winning without a fight part was far more important
>than any 'humane' aspect. Lucan fully intended on taking the ships he
>aquirred in this fashion and re-flagging themin his fleets, thus fixing
>two of the biggest problems facing all of the factions in 1120: The
>horrendous loss of ships in battle, and great difficulties inreplacing
>them.

This may be in Signal GK -- but I can't remember it in Survival Margin.

>This brought the technologically dependent Imperium to a horrific crash.
>the virus mutated into a true lifeform, Virus, with a number of variants.
>In a computer system of enough complexity, Virus could be extremely
>intelligent.
>
>The inspiration for Virus clearly descends from SF such as Fred
>Saberhagen's Berserker series.

And I don't think anyone objects to the Berserkers, as *they* can't infect other
computers by simple radio transmissions!

>Many MANY people have a huge problem with Virus, to the extent of
>proclaiming that this was what caused GDW to go under, even.

Me, for one. I simply stopped buying GDW products pretty much in disgust after
it was introduced.

>Their objections tend to follow a few lines:
>
>1)No computer virus could do this to so many diverse systems.
>
>(Well, it's not a comuter virus, per se. Any experience you have with
>something like PSYCO MOnkey-B or somesuch will prepare you for dealing
>with Virus like having experience with fighting bears will prepare you for
>an epidemic of Ebola. In retrospect GDW erred in calling it Virus)

And it couldn't work the way it is said to have for reasons that have been done
to death -- not any more than I can turn you into a Hamster (which is actually a
bad example ... you and a Hamster have a lot more in common, evolutionarily
speaking, than a dead piece of silicon in a standard imperial chip and the
"living" silicon [or whatever] of a Cymbeline "chip")

>2)There's no way something could 'infect' another system through a signal
>it recieved.
>
>(In Survival Margin, Virus is described as "A life form that moves through
>computing circuitry like a fish moves through water". again, a strained
>analogy...it's more like Virus is something that possesses or inhabits (in
>the demonic sense) computing technology.=20

Which is ridiculous -- or, if anyone out there *believes* it, don't read the
rest of this message, it contains Hamster DNA strings!

>3)GDW used this to destroy the beautiful Imperium setting irrevocably and
>introduced the vile heresy that was Traveller-The New Era.(TNE)

Nothing wrong with TNE *game system* ... well, except for FF&S #1 ... it was
simply the background that sucked majorly. In fact, the TNE *game system* is far
better than the suck(ish) T4 game system!

>Personally, I like the concept; my main problem with the TNE setting was
>the compressed timelines that were employed in the setting, as the long
>night that follwed the Crash should have lasted several hundred years
>rather than the 75 they said.

Exactly. That was another thing that *really* got up my nose.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2142
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 3 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2143



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Robotic Craft
Re: [T97#2133] womon-identified womyn?
Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)
Thank you for the sector names
> 5th Frontier War
Re: Sword Worlders
Re: Short Nap (was Virus)
For Dom Mooney
Re: Spofustuff
Re: 5th Frontier War
Re: Traveller Adventure for S-GK
Subject: Re: What is virus ?
whoah
classic traveller books 
Re: (LONG!) Re: Tech Level Ideas 
Request : Computer Ideas
FF&S-TNE and presentation (was Re: Virus--This...)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 08:39:07 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Robotic Craft

In my campaign world, I have a culture that relies heavily on robot
technology. I'm working on bringing the data from Classic Book 8 and
TNE:Vampire Fleets upto the T4 level, and I've made the following rules.
They are extremely rough and unfinished, but I would like opinions and
ideas.

Thanks!
======================================================================
ROBOTIC VEHICLES

While none of the major interstellar governments use robotic vehicles in
large numbers, the construction of such devices is possible in a
primitive sense around TL 8, and they can be built reliably around TL
12.

Robotic vehicles are a bit more complex than simply replacing
crewmembers with computers or robots. These rules are an attempt to
explain the strengths and weaknesses of such vehicles.

Design

Robotic vheicles are normally designed from the start to be robotic - 
rarely are ships retrofitted with such technology. Due to the lack of
living crewmembers, robotic vehicles have several advantages. Note that
it is possible to constuct a hybrid vessel - a normal ship with a
reduced crew due to robots and robot brains. In such cases, the
requirements for both crews (living and robotic) must be met in their
entirity.

* Robotic vehicles require high automation, to allow the robot brains to
effectively interface with the system.
* Robotic vehicles require an extra computer, to coordinate all of the
robots.
In starships/spacecraft, that means jump-capable craft must have at
least 4 computers, while non-jump ships need at least 3. Backups may be
provided. These computers must be as powerful as the general ships'
computers.
* The following crew positions may be replaced by robotic brains: pilot,
navigator, sensors, gunnery, MFD, screens, command, and pilots in the
flight section (but not maintenance staff in the flight section).
* The following crew positions may be replaced by robots (because they
need manipulators and the ability to move and interact): engineers,
maintenance, troops, non-pilot flight, steward, medical.
* Robotic brains require no life support, no gravity, and no quarters.
* Robots require no life support. However, they do need operating space,
which is usually wrapped up abstractly in staterooms. If there are no
living crewmembers, for every two robots you need one small "stateroom".
This is not actually a stateroom, but it represents access tunnels,
hallways, and work areas. If living crew members are present, robots
require no extra space if they are outnumbered by living personnel. If
robots outnumber personnel, then the 2 robots->1 stateroom rule applies
to all robots beyond the number of personnel. Gravity is required for
all robots except those equipped with zero-g maneuvering systems or grav
modules. Gravity compensation from acceleration is required for all
robots except grav-powered robots.
* Robots do not have a "frozen watch", but extra robot brains may be
installed, and extra robots can be stored in cargo.

Operation and Combat

While the design of robotic vessels confers many advantages, they are
severely limited in operations, due to the intelectual shortcomings of a
robotic brain. This can be broken down by tech level:

TL 8-11:
These vessels are severely limited. They must be given EXPLICIT
instructions, and will not waver from them. Examples: 
  "Travel to the top of hill 27 and fire at all vehicles not
transmitting the IFF signal"
  "Orbit the gas giant and examine the atmosphere with your sensors"

These vessels can only be commanded by specially trained personnel, and
the changing of their orders takes a great deal of time (they must be
completely reprogrammed). The more complex their programming, the more
likely a malfunction. Referees should base the difficulty of programming
such vehicles on the complexity of the instructions - if the programmer
fails his programming roll, the vehicle will malfunction in some
fashion.
  TL 8-11 vehicles cannot in any way respond to new situations. If a
vessel has no instructions regaurding combat, they will cheerfully
remain in place as an enemy blasts away at them.
  TL 8-11 vehicles cannot repair themselves.

TL 12-16
These are the first vehicles that can be truely considered fully
robotic.
These machines, while not as versatile as normal ships with living
crewmembers, are much more responsive than their more primative cousins.
They can act in all mays like normal craft, with the following
exceptions:
* In combat, a robot or robot brain's skill levels are limited by its
Tactics or Ship's Tactics skill. Thus, a robot brain with Pilot-4 and 
Ship Tactics-2 is counted as having Pilot-2 in combat. This represents
the inherent differences between the calm pace of normal life and the
fast-paced dynamic world of combat. Skills can be reduced to 0 in this
fashion, although there should be no penalties for no skill applied.
* All repair difficulties are increased by one - this represents the
fact that robots don't have the jury-rig mentality that living 
crewmembers might have.
* Unless the robots and robot brains have electronioc circuit
protection, any radiation hit will reset their brains the same as the
computer, causing the craft to be dead in the water. 
* Referees should severely enforce the fact that robots are not
creative, and will tend to react in predictable (even if intelligent)
fashions. Also, robotic craft tend to be disturbed by non-rational or
"crazy" tactics, often unable to cope. Referees should feel free to
alter the difficulties of a task to represent this shortcoming.
* Note that robotic craft have high automation, and thus suffer the
damage penalties such craft have.
* On the other hand, robots are thorough and fearless. It is asumed that
they can perform nearly any reasonable mental feat instantly, and can
ignore any penalties for fear or stress.

Role Playing Notes

None of the major races field large amounts of robotic craft. However,
the replacement of crewmembers with robotic brains or robots is
ocasionally practiced in civilian craft. The most common replacements
are robotic navigators and electronics operators. Imperial Regulations 
require that such devices have a "skill-level" of at least 3. 

In cultures where robots are commonplace, robotic troops, maintenance,
stewards, and medics are often used.

No major government is known to deploy robotic combat craft.

- -- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:06:29 -0500
From: Tim Connors <tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu>
Subject: Re: [T97#2133] womon-identified womyn?

At 12:09 AM 12/2/97 +0000, you wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Nov 1997 00:46:31 -0500, Tim Connors
><tconnor@pop3.utoledo.edu> wrote:
>
>>At 06:25 PM 11/28/97 +0000, you wrote:
>>>In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19971126213406.007d19e0@mail.pcisys.net>
>>>
>>>David,
>>>
>>>> Certainly. They're human beings of the gender without protruding
>
>[bandwidthectomy]
>
>>><sigh>
>>>
>>>Sometimes I think a .1c dinosaur-killer would be the best thing for 
>>>this planet.
>>>______________________________________________________________________
>>>Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
>>> "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"
>>>
>>	Suck down another beer; give a hearty 
>>	toast to the world at large; and just remember that
>>	there aren't enough horses.
>
>Strange - there are certainly more than enough horse's asses...
>
>I remember when PC stood for "Personal Computer"...
>--
>Jeff Zeitlin
>jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com
>
	That's the problem. When you compare the number of horses with the 
	number of horse's asses, you're forced to conclude that there just
	aren't enough horses.


	Tim Connors

	Mark Twain once commented that he had no respect for
	a politician who took a one million dollar bribe when 
	he clearly could have held out for two million.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 10:13:47 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Tech Levels Ideas (Long..but worth it)

Ethan writes:
>Personally, while I like the idea of a mechanic that allows you to model
>crappy equipment versus good equipment, is it really practical? I mean,
>do you want to tell your players "Well, you failed the task roll by one
>point... you should have spent the extra cash for that really nice
>Darrian PRIS instead of the cheap Sword World one...". 
>
- -----

Actually, I like the idea!  My players tend to look for the edge, and
invest time and energy in planning and preparation.  Investing a bit of
money in top-of-the-line equipment would be right up their alley.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:57:48 -0800
From: Scott Ellsworth <Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu>
Subject: Thank you for the sector names

Just a quick thank you to the six (!!) people who forwarded me sector name
lists.  This helped a current project of mine a lot.  Someday, I may finish
one of these.

Scott
Scott_Ellsworth@alumni.hmc.edu   http://users.deltanet.com/~fuz
"When a great many people are unable to find work, unemployment 
results" - Calvin Coolidge, (Stanley Walker, City Editor, p. 131 (1934))
"The barbarian is thwarted at the moat." - Scott Adams

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:43:36 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: > 5th Frontier War

> From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>

> Thanks for the various responses to my query regarding the 5th Fontier
> War sourcebook.  I've been 'out of the loop' WRT Traveller for a while.
> I'm planning a campaign set on the eve of the 5thFW, and am looking for
> background info for that time period.  I was under the impression that
> there was a sourcebook.  Am I wrong?  Could one of you recommend some
> background info, and perhaps tell me a source where I could get it?

You are wrong; there was no single source book for the pre-5FW era. 
There was a large amount of material produced about it by GDW, however. 
You should look at the most of the Adventures and Double Adventures, as
well as issues 1-8 of JTAS.  The Traveller News Service for issues 1-9
is republished in the rules for the 5FW war game.  This is a great
Traveller setting; enjoy!

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 09:58:37 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Re: Sword Worlders

> From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>

> ObTrav: The Sword Worlds position is much more like Egypt in 1973 than
> Israel. The Imperium has badly underestimated them, the SW have been posturing
> towards war for awhile without doing anything (leading to the Imperium
> thinking it's just bluff and posturing). They've been conducting a "War of
> Attrition" (1968-73) with pirates and guerillas in D268 and Lunion.

When are the Sword Worlds like Egypt in 1973?  Not in 1107, surely. 
Look at the Fifth Frontier War war game.  Sword Worlds fleets are jump-2
at best, and their forces are no higher than tech level 12 (maybe it's
11, even worse).  It takes several turns for them just to wrest Tavonni
away from a single Imperial mercenary battalion, and even after that
they can't make much progress into Vilis subsector without substantial
Zhodani assistance.  The Imperium -- not even Santanocheev -- wasn't
underestimating the Sword Worlds at all in that time frame, and the
Sword Worlds are essentially ineffective in the most important regions
of the Fifth Frontier War.  

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:19:55 -0500 (EST)
From: Dedly@aol.com
Subject: Re: Short Nap (was Virus)

>>>A miniature Dark Age (disparagingly called the Short Nap by some) settled
over the Imperium <<<

Without (hopefully) starting up another flame war, I'd like to reply to this
(and 1 below). Caps used below are for emphasis not yelling.

The "mini Dark Age" is NOT over in 1200. You're only seeing the first
flickerings of renewed civilization with the RC. Vast sectors still lie in
ruin. The setting is DURING the mini Dark Age, not after. 

The Regency, on the other hand, remained intact. The Long Night (as far as I
know) didn't have such a large surviving "Pocket Empire." The interstellar
economy in the Regency was large enough to avoid falling into darkness. I'd
argue that this will speed recovery.

>>>Survival Margin makes the claim that they can somehow -- by radio,
nonetheless -- change previously non-sentient, non-"living", non-*Cymbeline*
chips into "living", "sentient", "Cymbeline" chips. This is like saying that
I can turn *you* into a hamster by transmitting the DNA code of a Hamster to
you via email! <<<
 
Uh, your analogy is flawed. Sentient chips and non-sentient chips still share
the same medium (silicon) and both will transmit information (1's & 0's) the
same way. It seems feasible to me. DNA and email don't share the same medium.
It's apples and oranges. If you wanted to turn me into a hamster via hamster
DNA then you would have to use a proper means of transmitting that sort of
information. Think a successful version of "The Island of Dr Moreau" or maybe
"Blood Music" by Greg Bear.

But it's all over now anyway,
\_/
DED

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:19:50 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: For Dom Mooney

Dom, I asked Scott to forward you a copy of Infini-V, as you apparently
hadn't received either of the ones I sent you.  In fact, you apparently
can't get email from me; although I _am_ received email from you, whenever
I reply I get a message that says your host cannot be contacted.  Here is
what Scoll sent me:

<quote>
At 09:58 AM 12/3/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>Please forward a copy to Dom Mooney.  All my mail to him vanishes,
>>although his reaches me just fine.  Thanks.

Will do.

If he has not gotten it by late tomorrow, let me know, as this might
indicate another point of failure.

Scott
</quote>

To everyone else: sorry for taking up group bandwidth.  Dom and I are
trying to get Infini-V finished (as well as a couple of 101-series books),
so you _will_ benefit.  Any suggestions about what I can do would be
greatly appreciated.  At the moment my network admin keeps repeating "the
new gateway is functioning" like a mantra...

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 22:56:37 -0800
From: "Brian A. Howard" <bruadh@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Spofustuff

Yes. Me, please. 

Sir Ira Rimmer really needs some more evidence to sink his grubby,
power-mongering, little teeth into. :-)

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:36:19 -0500
From: Michael Kent <mkent@atlantic.net>
Subject: Re: 5th Frontier War

Daniel Poulin wrote: 
> Like many of us mentioned, the closest thing is the Spinward Marches 
> sourcebook that details the Fifth Frontier War.  
<Snippity-Snip>
> This is truly a great book.

Thanks for the info.  Obviously, I don't have that book.  Does anyone
know where I might get a copy?  It sounds exactly like what I need.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:35:21 -0500 (EST)
From: SignalGK@aol.com
Subject: Re: Traveller Adventure for S-GK

Help!!!

Someone sent me an adventure for issue 13 of Signal-GK based on a cybertech
world called trafe.. Unfortunately the file was damaged when it downloaded..
I don't have the authors name or address and the adventure becomes garbage
after the following text..

Konis was a good player, and rarely lost. Having built the complex, he had
free access to it (while other players and onlookers had to pay a steep fee)
and plenty time to practice. Unfortunately, the night of his death, he didn't
simply lose, but was still connected when his pawn died. The massive sensory
shock triggered an heart attack, and the small infirmary (which is used
mostly to patch up the surviving pawns after the fight) was not equipped for
this kind of emergencies. The bruise on his chin was caused by his death
spasms. Zaran Horas instructed his men to take the corpse back to the
apartment. Three men carried the body to his car, drove to the residence and
prepared the scene of his death. They lost the datacard while fumbling in the
dead man pockets to find the keycard for his apartment. Horas decided to lay
down for a little and  ...

If you are the author please, please get it touch urgently.. I need to know
who you are and I need the rest of the adventure...

This is urgent...

Jae

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:48:27 -0500 (EST)
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: Subject: Re: What is virus ?

>Subject: Re: What is virus ?
>>
>>Jens asked, roughly,=20
>>
>>>What exactly IS this virus thing anyway?
>>
>>Ahhhh...you missed a lot then.
>>
>>In the Canon GDW history (as explained in "Survival Margin"), the
>>transponders used in the late Imperium were actually sentient microchips
>>derived from the silicon life forms from Cymbelline introduced in the
>>classic Trav adventure 'Signal GK'.=20
>>
>>They were autonomous life forms that exchanged data continuously with
>>each other comparing the state of the ships they were attached to. In
>>order that they could accurately do so, they were tied into all the ships
>>systems.
>>
>>Meanwhile, after the Rebellion started, some of Lucan's scientists started
>>playing with a variant of the Cymbelline chips, ones that could 'imprint'
>>themselves on other Cymbelline chips long distance, via radio, and take
>>over the other chips.
>>
>>These were closer to the wild sentient chips in that they could readily
>>re-wire their own circuitry, once established.
>All this is true.
Yup.

>>Lucan's people wanted a 'humane' weapon that could invade enemy ships via
>>long distance, and take control of the systems on board the enemy's ship,
>>rendering it useless to the enemy, and letting Lucan's fleets win without
>>a fight.

>Unfortunately, this is where you depart from my understanding of "Canon" as
>described in Survival Margin. The problem is that the Cymbeline chips were only
>used in the *Transponders* of starships ... and all Transponders do is *report*
>data, they are not actively tied into the ships systems in a way that would
>affect them (not in any sensible universe, that is). Even if you allow that the
>Cymbeline Transponder chips could reprogram *themselves*, Survival Margin >makes
>the claim that they can somehow -- by radio, nonetheless -- change previously
>non-sentient, non-"living", non-*Cymbeline* chips into "living", "sentient",
>"Cymbeline" chips. This is like saying that I can turn *you* into a hamster by

Referencing my copy of Survival Margin, The Cymbeline chips are only in the
"SDG-313F" Transponder system.  Their only purpose is to identify other
starships own cymbeline chips and thus verify the identity.  They do this by
"conversing" w/ the other chips Cymbeline Transponder.   We're told (pg
69-70) that they're constatly broadcasting, not just when the crews hear a
'squawk.' It is on page 70 that we are told that the chips have UNIMPEDED
access to the comm system (to stay frequency agile) AND the ships main
computer core and databanks.
    Thus, the Virus does not turn "non cymbeline" chips into "living,
"sentient","Cymbeline" chips.  Even on a cymbeline Transponder equipped ship,
this just makes for convenient (unapposed) entry into a ship.  Entering this
way was the Virus' "Ace in the Hole,"  the easy way to infect.  Every alien
vessel that traded in the Imperium was required to have it and every ship
built in the Imperium was built w/ the system. (At least in canon).  These
were instant Vampires.   Shutting down the transponder made Virus try to find
other ways to infect or just destroy u (if it could).
So its the Computer (Core) ends up being a host for Virus not turning "chips"
into Cymbeline Chips.  

>transmitting the DNA code of a Hamster to you via email! Quite ridiculous.
>The perfect defence against Virus, in any world where the writers had some idea
>of how computers (and evolution, for that matter) worked would have been simply
>to cut the transponder circuit out of the link and then power down the computers
>to kill off any software "infection" and reboot them from "clean" (probably
>read-only) media.

Doesn't work.  Again, the computers of the 57th century aren't just souped up
models of todays.  Turning off the transponders was exactly what many did.
 They got infected by other methods, or were destroyed by "normal" methods
(lasers, missles, etc) Doing that, btw, destroyed your transponder.  Virus
was stated to have the ability to cut new ciruitry and thus imbed itself in
hardware.  This was the "hidey hole".   You're playing right along w/ Virus.
 I don't think this is a far fetched ability.  No more than going into a
pocket universe for a week long jaunt to another solor system.  It's been
theorized that computers will be able to reconfigure systems as they
"compute" for efficiency.  Why not hardware?  Especially after a few thousand
years?  
  
>At this point, the winning without a fight part was far more important
>than any 'humane' aspect. Lucan fully intended on taking the ships he
>aquirred in this fashion and re-flagging themin his fleets, thus fixing
>two of the biggest problems facing all of the factions in 1120: The
>horrendous loss of ships in battle, and great difficulties inreplacing
>them.
>This may be in Signal GK -- but I can't remember it in Survival Margin.
>>This brought the technologically dependent Imperium to a horrific crash.
>>the virus mutated into a true lifeform, Virus, with a number of variants.
>>In a computer system of enough complexity, Virus could be extremely
>>intelligent.
It's Survival Margin.  Page 74.

>>
>>The inspiration for Virus clearly descends from SF such as Fred
>>Saberhagen's Berserker series.
>And I don't think anyone objects to the Berserkers, as *they* can't infect
other
>computers by simple radio transmissions!

Referencing my copy of Survival Margin.  The transporder chatter is not just
simple radio transmissions.  Once u go beyond the transponder, the next most
common form of infection was computer controlled communications.
 Encoding/decoding, correcting from Doppler shifting, keeping tight beam
comms on target w/ accuracies measured in attoradians.  Virus attaches its
code and it insures infection by the "viewing" computer.  All out of the eyes
of the crew.  Military ships would have protection against this by data
contamination procedures.  Maybe even some civilian ships.   The 3rd form of
infection was human delievered.  Convincing a human that a program was a new
diagnostic program, outright threats  (depressurize or play Grav Pong,
bombard a city).  Yet another mode is via small craft.  When brought back
aboard, they're hooked into ships systems.  Fuel hoses, power cables,
computer connections...  (inertial navigation calibration, diagnostics).  All
of this is paraphrased from Survival Margin.  (pg 77).  

>>Many MANY people have a huge problem with Virus, to the extent of
>>proclaiming that this was what caused GDW to go under, even.
>Me, for one. I simply stopped buying GDW products pretty much in disgust after
>it was introduced.

Much the same w/ me after Milieu 0 Campaigns flub of the FS data...  I'm
staying open minded and will browse IG despite their well known Starships and
FS flubs.  (among all the other erratta).  I like Traveller.  I think M:0 is
well written.  Worth my money.   GDW was completely written off by so many...
sad.

>>Their objections tend to follow a few lines:
>>
>>1)No computer virus could do this to so many diverse systems.

I'd just say here that there's noone alive who knows what a computer from
3700+ years in the future is gonna look like, be composed of, or be capable
of.  NOONE. If u think u do, i got a bridge i wanna sell u. Personally, i
don't think it'll take that long to have full AI.  I think that all of
Traveller Tech is a bit too slow, but that's another matter.

>>
>>(Well, it's not a comuter virus, per se. Any experience you have with
>>something like PSYCO MOnkey-B or somesuch will prepare you for dealing
>>with Virus like having experience with fighting bears will prepare you for
>>an epidemic of Ebola. In retrospect GDW erred in calling it Virus)
>And it couldn't work the way it is said to have for reasons that have been done
>to death -- not any more than I can turn you into a Hamster (which is actually a
>bad example ... you and a Hamster have a lot more in common, evolutionarily
>speaking, than a dead piece of silicon in a standard imperial chip and the
>"living" silicon [or whatever] of a Cymbeline "chip")

Um...  but have the "standard" imperial chips been described anywhere?  I may
well be wrong, but i don't think so.  Again, I don't think anyone on this
list (or even Nostradamus) has any idea what the standard computer chip of
the 57th century will be like.
    The computers of Traveller have always been vague enough to justify
Virus, as explained.

>>2)There's no way something could 'infect' another system through a signal
>>it recieved.
>>
>>(In Survival Margin, Virus is described as "A life form that moves through
>>computing circuitry like a fish moves through water". again, a strained
>>analogy...it's more like Virus is something that possesses or inhabits (in
>>the demonic sense) computing technology.=20
>Which is ridiculous -- or, if anyone out there *believes* it, don't read the
>rest of this message, it contains Hamster DNA strings!

I think that analogy isn't so ridiculous.  Its not "swimming" or anything.
 Bruce's analogy is better said, but the original one works.  

>>3)GDW used this to destroy the beautiful Imperium setting irrevocably and
>>introduced the vile heresy that was Traveller-The New Era.(TNE)
>Nothing wrong with TNE *game system* ... well, except for FF&S #1 ... it was
>simply the background that sucked majorly. In fact, the TNE *game system* is far
>better than the suck(ish) T4 game system!

 we agree on something. : )

>>Personally, I like the concept; my main problem with the TNE setting was
>>the compressed timelines that were employed in the setting, as the long
>>night that follwed the Crash should have lasted several hundred years
>>rather than the 75 they said.
>Exactly. That was another thing that *really* got up my nose.
>Phil

Not if some worlds never collapse or get outside help.  (RC from Hivers,
Domain of Deneb (Regency) never collapses, couple of other pocket Empires the
same).  noone was self recovered in that short time.  Just w/ outside help.
 Then the helped kinda get the ball rolling.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 14:58:15 -0500 (EST)
From: TravelrTNE@aol.com
Subject: whoah

one post script...  I do like FF&S (The Original)  very much.

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 15:03:49 -0500
From: Robin Crooks <rstanek@ix.netcom.com>
Subject: classic traveller books 

I am looking fo the original three "classic Traveller" books. I started
playing traveller in 1979 and quit about 1983.(big mistake) I found some
people who want to try it so I have to reaquire some of the materials. I
know they have new books through imperrium games but which ones do I
need to start? I would like to get the new books and the old ones just
to have around. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

The mad general

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 97 14:12:34 -0700
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: (LONG!) Re: Tech Level Ideas 

On 1997-12-02 6:04 pm, David J. Golden <goldendj@pcisys.net> wrote the 
following:

>COMPUTER/ROBOTICS TL
>Max: Energy Max
>Min: Max/3 (drop fractions)
>
>Computer/Robotics TL= High Common + TL Modifier + Population
>Modifier
>
>COMMUNICATIONS TL
>Max: Energy Max
>Min: Max/3 (drop fractions)
>
>Communications TL=Computer/Robotics TL + TL Modifier

A note about these: The text says divide by three, but the example 
subtracts 3. (Max-3) I'm not sure which is the typo...

- -- 
===== Glenn Hoppe =====\ /--- MailTo:jumpspace@geocities.com ----
\ . . Enter Jumpspace --X-> http://www.geocities.com/Area51/8275 \
 ----------------------/ \========== Eschew Obfuscation ==========

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 16:40:04 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Request : Computer Ideas

***Jo, Don't Read this (or the replies)***


(he gone?)


Its time to get some outside input on how to proceed.

The background;

Elise (The character's name) is a computer expert.  her skill level is such
that she can not-quite work miracles at the console.  She spends all of her
time immersed in a neural user interface (playing Battletech much of the
time) and hacking into systems just for the fun of it.

Arrive at a TL13 world.  "What kind of computer stuff do they have?" she
asks, and I provide a hook (at the suggestion of the player); Trinary logic
computers.  Supposedly a "dead-end" technology, the local technoweenies
have developed a transistor with three states instead of our usual two
("yes-no-maybe" rather thna "yes-no").  They have also developed their
machine-language level software to take advantage of this and, indeed, have
a long history of excellent software developers who use both the trinary
chips and Imperial Standard binary chips for alll sorts of stuff.

Elise acquires a new computer; it turns out to have biological components
in addition to the usual electronic, solid state ones.  Big pinkish blobs
in fishbowl-like life support tanks are brought on board and hooked into
the main computer system (incidentially spilling out into the ships
passageway) along with many other new components and systems.

Of course, Elise didn't trust the thing at first, and there have been
two-three months of encouraging signs and interesting but undetailed
developments to work from.  A this point she has the thing playing
Mechwarrior against human opponents and doing quite well on the tactical
side.  It doesn't act as well on the more judgemental strategic side, but
that should be true of any artificial thinker.  It can only think inside
the box, so to speak, and unpredictable, non-programmed strategies should
be able to defeat it.

Now, I'd like to implement the next step in this development.  I would like
to get "outside" my own "box" and solicit some suggestions not my own.  I'd
like the computer to become a plot hook of some sort, an lead to an
adventure.

We are in the Spinward Marches, Aramis Subsector, using the Traveller
Adventure.  The group is just leaving Junidy.  (we will have after Thursday
night.)

I'd like to develop some technical aspect of why this computer is better
using either the nature of trinary logic, biological computing, or both.

Note that it has been well established (in theory) that the biological
components are not "alive" or "intelligent" in any sense, they merely
provide electronic pathways that can be electrochemically opened or closed
by a controlling "program" to act like a CPU.  That these components may,
in fact, possess life or ontelligence is certainly a glaring adventure
hook, but its use is neither required nor suggested.

Ok folks, go at it.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:25:29 -0500 (EST)
From: GypsyComet@aol.com
Subject: FF&S-TNE and presentation (was Re: Virus--This...)

Beware. Mr. McGregor just pushed one of my essay-writing buttons...


>Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:21:10 GMT

>From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)

>Subject: Re: Virus -- This wasn't the way it was!



<snip>

>
>>3)GDW used this to destroy the beautiful Imperium setting irrevocably and
>>introduced the vile heresy that was Traveller-The New Era.(TNE)
>
>Nothing wrong with TNE *game system* ... well, except for FF&S #1 ... it was
>simply the background that sucked majorly. In fact, the TNE *game system*
> is far
>better than the suck(ish) T4 game system!
>


 I quite agree with you about TNE vs T4. What little system my group uses
is TNE...

 I have to disagree with your opinion of FF&S-TNE however. While some
typos crept in, and some specific numbers deeply offended certain
gearheads, this book was a wonder of organization. The depth and detail
available in this book is ONLY available because of that organization.
FF&S-TNE is both useful AND useable.


 If you want examples of misorganized design systems, we can look first
at FF&S-T4 and continue through most of the rest of the T4 stuff. GDW
obviously learned (and regretably forgot part of) the lesson of layout
and organization; IG hasn't.  GDW also forgot more about proper typeface
usage than IG knows now (compare MT with TNE and T4).

 In my honest opinion, formed over 20 years of gaming, IG could AT THIS
MOMENT benefit more from a good layout artist than from any other permanent
addition to their staff. Organization and readability are vital to any
role-playing publication.
  Oh. You want examples?

  Player's Handbook, AD&D 1st ed. (TSR):  The Holy Grail of RPG
publications as far as organization and presentation are concerned. You
always know what section of the book you are in, _where_ in that section
you are, and where on the page you need to look. All these things happen
at page-flipping speed; no need to slow down to reading speed.

  most of the Palladium stuff:  Kevin Simbieda may be a big jerk, and
his writing merely competent, but he knows how to use artwork and
formatting to present his information.

  Star Fleet Battles (ADB/TFG):  High organization with very little
attention paid to presentation, this is a thousand pages of rules in which
you can find _any_ rule in under a minute.

  FF&S-TNE (GDW): As mentioned above, this book organizes a wide array
of design sequences and options in an instantly useable format.

  Referee's Manual, MegaTraveller (GDW): Typos aside, this book shares
many of the best characteristics with the AD&D-Player's Handbook above.

  Star Wars RPG (West End): Good typeface and size, clear chapter
boundaries and good use of graphic elements in layout. Good use of
art (but hey, this IS Star Wars).

now for a few negative examples:

  TNE rulebook (GDW): a bad fall for the same company that did the MT
stuff.  Much of this book's size and its difficulty of use could have
been solved by a smaller, more readable typeface.  Most of the rulebooks
from GDW in the same time period (Dark Conspiracy, T:2000) suffer the same
problems.

  Warhammer 40,000 Rulebook (GW): Good readable typeface, but a bad
tendency to bury important rules in huge paragraphs or among pages of
background color.

  T4: Starships (IG): The ship examples were okay aside from being printed
white on black (remember, I'm talking presentation here, NOT content).
The rules in the back suffered for having the guide text completely
seperated from the tables.  With design systems of this sort, my belief
is that the entire answer to one question should be on one page or a
short contiguous range of pages.

  Mutant Chronicles (Heartbreaker): very dense text, with annoying bits of
mechanics scattered throughout the book.

  T4: Fire, Fusion and Steel (IG): As with Starships, guide text and
related hard data seperated by many pages. This leads to denser guide
text (which makes it even harder to use). Typeface is a good size, but
is still a sans-serif, and that damn sunburst on each odd-numbered page
doesn't help.

  Guns, Guns, Guns (any edition; BTRC): Exept for the sunburst, these
books have all the same problems as FF&S-T4. 'Nuf said.

  Champions: New Millenium (R.Talsorian/Hero): Huge dependence on graphic
elements to define layout (translation: all the tables have fancy borders),
and a fragmented organization (background color and mechanics overmixed).



>Phil

>- ---------------------------------------------

>Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
>Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
>Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
>Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)
>
>------------------------------


  Yeah, yeah. A lot _you_ know. ;)

GypsyComet

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2143
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Traveller-digest    Wednesday, December 3 1997    Volume 1997 : Number 2144



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Virus -- This wasn't the way it was!
New version of FF&S spreadsheet...
RE: Some Start Ship Design Questions
Re: Request : Computer Ideas
Re: Spofustuff
Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)
[none]
Re: What is virus ?
Asst Deckplans
A letter home from =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FC=FCstag?=
Auction Updated
Free Traders and Econ History 101

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:42:10 -0500 (EST)
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
Subject: Re: Virus -- This wasn't the way it was!

Phillip McGregor writes:

On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:24:43 -0500, you wrote:

>>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:07:33 -0700 (MST)
>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>>Subject: Re: What is virus ?

<snip>

>All this is true.

   Indeed, one of the best short descriptions of Virus I've ever read.

>>Lucan's people wanted a 'humane' weapon that could invade enemy ships via
>>long distance, and take control of the systems on board the enemy's ship,
>>rendering it useless to the enemy, and letting Lucan's fleets win without
>>a fight.
>
>Unfortunately, this is where you depart from my understanding of "Canon" as
>described in Survival Margin. The problem is that the Cymbeline chips were only
>used in the *Transponders* of starships ... and all Transponders do is *report*
>data, they are not actively tied into the ships systems in a way that would
>affect them (not in any sensible universe, that is).

   Actually this part of his description sounds like one that would be given
by a Lucan "apologist" or ally, and actually may even be true.  While we are
told that Lucan's people were trying to develop superweapons, and that Virus
was one of those superweapons, exactly *what* it was suppose to do (as
opposed to what it actually did) is subject to interpretation.

   As for the balance of your comments here, your view seems to be tainted
by your understanding of the way late 20th century computer architecture
works.  In fact, even today computer viruses can be spread through data
files, something that even 10 years ago was thought impossible.  Since the
transponders were tied into the communication array, it would be child's
play for Virus to be accepted as a data file (even though it is an
executable), and the work its way into the heart of the ship's main computer.

>Even if you allow that the
>Cymbeline Transponder chips could reprogram *themselves*, Survival Margin makes
>the claim that they can somehow -- by radio, nonetheless -- change previously
>non-sentient, non-"living", non-*Cymbeline* chips into "living", "sentient",
>"Cymbeline" chips. This is like saying that I can turn *you* into a hamster by
>transmitting the DNA code of a Hamster to you via email! Quite ridiculous.

   Again, you fail to understand the basic idea.  Because it is sent as data
(or at least mascarades as such), it can be transmitted by radio, microwave
antenna, over land lines--anything capable of transmitting data.  While
Virus starts off in the silicon state, tied to a physical object, it
reproduces by sending false data packets which are in reality "virtual DNA"
that are the codes for creating an offspring.  Virus can be made of silicon
(as are the "chips"), gallium arsenide, liquid, or anything else capable of
holding its "virtual DNA" intact.

>The perfect defence against Virus, in any world where the writers had some idea
>of how computers (and evolution, for that matter) worked would have been simply
>to cut the transponder circuit out of the link and then power down the 
>computers to kill off any software "infection" and reboot them from "clean" 
>(probably read-only) media.

   OK, first you have to know that Virus is coming in through transponder
circuits.  Most of those killed in the initial attacks weren't given that
briefing.  Second, assuming that you were lucky enough to know that all
transponder circuits needed to be cut, you now must check every single file
(data or otherwise) being transmitted into your computer to make sure it
doesn't carry "virtual DNA"--remember, Virus can pretend to be almost
anything (down to a minimum compression size), including anti-Virus
software!  You must do this process continuously, otherwise Virus could slip
through.

   Also, if the "virtual DNA" instructions are executed, Virus becomes
hardwired into the circuits (yes I know that would work with liquid data
storage, but the assumption is those are extremely rare).  Wiping a
computer's memory and disks clean of software will do no good at that point,
you will have to physically replace the effected computer components.

   Remember, Virus was a ***surprise attack***.  You may have to figure out
what Virus really is and how it is being transmitted all while at the same
time your computer and every computer around you is trying its best to wreak
as much havoc as possible before self-destructing--not to mention all the
starships, vehicles, planetary computer nets, orbital defense systems, and
anything else with good computer power that is trying to do the same thing.

>And I don't think anyone objects to the Berserkers, as *they* can't infect 
>other computers by simple radio transmissions!

   Again, we're not talking about playing "Love Me Tender" on a 50,000 watt
radio station, we're talking about the transmission of large amounts of
*data*, which went on in the Imperium without anyone giving it a second thought.

>>Many MANY people have a huge problem with Virus, to the extent of
>>proclaiming that this was what caused GDW to go under, even.
>
>Me, for one. I simply stopped buying GDW products pretty much in disgust after
>it was introduced.

   Virus no more caused the downfall of GDW than the initial underpowering
of energy weapons in TNE.  What caused the downfall of GDW is a complex
series of events that are better left for another discussion.

   Really its a question of the suspension of disbelief.  If you can do it
on a basic level, science-fiction becomes possible (this is why people like
my mother-in-law don't get Star Trek or any other sci-fi--she is incapable
of the process).  If you can do it with the Virus concept, then the Collapse
becomes possible.  If not, then TNE still had some excellent game mechanics
around which you could wrap any story, including one in which Virus doesn't
happen.

>And it couldn't work the way it is said to have for reasons that have been done
>to death -- not any more than I can turn you into a Hamster (which is actually 
>a bad example ... you and a Hamster have a lot more in common, evolutionarily
>speaking, than a dead piece of silicon in a standard imperial chip and the
>"living" silicon [or whatever] of a Cymbeline "chip")

   Once again, Virus is no more tied to a silicon chip than a vector is tied
to a host.  You have to think in terms of both computer science and biology
in order to "get it".

>>Personally, I like the concept; my main problem with the TNE setting was
>>the compressed timelines that were employed in the setting, as the long
>>night that follwed the Crash should have lasted several hundred years
>>rather than the 75 they said.
>
>Exactly. That was another thing that *really* got up my nose.

   Sorry but the implied analogy between the Rule of Man and the Post-Virus
era doesn't work.  The fall of civilization that takes place after the Rule
of Man was far more complete, and much less sudden than the one that takes
place after the Collapse.  It is like comparing a 200 point decrease in the
stock market that takes place over two years versus the same decrease that
takes place in two days.  The former is usually a sign of long term problems
and recovery could take many years, whereas the latter is probably only
temporary and can be made up in another couple of days.

Regards,

Harold
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 17:53:14 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: New version of FF&S spreadsheet...

Man, I just keep cranking this out :)

Version 1.5 of my FF&S spreadsheet is now available. It has the
following features/fixes:

* Fixed a problem with Laser 1 USP calculation
* Fixed a BAD primitive drive and HEPlaR fuel bug
* Added component armor
* Fixed and clarified the economics page
* Added hi/low power active sensors

You can get it at www.ames.net/igor/trav/trav.htm

Just travel to the drydock page.
- -- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 18:16:34 +1300
From: Brody Dunn <bdunn@ihug.co.nz>
Subject: RE: Some Start Ship Design Questions

On Tuesday, December 02, 1997 6:39 AM, Bruce Alan Macintosh 
[SMTP:bmac@astro.ucla.edu] wrote:
> Alternatively, use grapples; it's pretty clear (since you can use grapples
> for modules/pods) that they can take the strain.

I use grapples to put together great big nonstellar spaceships to ply the 
internal lanes (with truly large quanities of fuel and chemical boosters you 
can get around fairly fast) with trips around 3 months long (only 10 days 
thrust at .1 G sort of thing).

I always use a Tug type arrangement (although it's really a push, I guess) 
that has controls and life support and then grapple on thrusters and landers 
and stuff like that as required.  Sometimes the "Ship" has changed so much 
it's hard to recognise.

Brody Dunn

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 16:35:22 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Request : Computer Ideas

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> ***Jo, Don't Read this (or the replies)***
>
> (he gone?)
> I'd like to develop some technical aspect of why this computer is better
> using either the nature of trinary logic, biological computing, or both.
>
> Note that it has been well established (in theory) that the biological
> components are not "alive" or "intelligent" in any sense, they merely
> provide electronic pathways that can be electrochemically opened or closed
> by a controlling "program" to act like a CPU.  That these components may,
> in fact, possess life or ontelligence is certainly a glaring adventure
> hook, but its use is neither required nor suggested.
>
> Ok folks, go at it.
>
> Pete
>
> Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
> "Shiela-X where are you"

 Well...the first thing that springs to mind is the vision of Doctor McCoy,
kneeling over the life support module, looking up and saying (everyone), "I'm a
doctor Jim,  not a computer technician!"

You can hit 'em with life support problems - symptoms ranging from
discolorations and reduced reaction time, to erratic decisions.  It can be
caused by a virus (small 'v') introduced during installation, contaminated
nutrients, or even planned 'obsolecense' (the manufactorer makes money _selling_
the darned things!)

Give 'em a scenario of unexplained growth - where it is growing over it's
bounds.  That should make 'em nervouse (not to mention scrambling to find a way
to contain it, and support the new size)

Have a passenger try and free it (ever hear of PETA?)

Hmmm...I wonder how a religious dictatorship would react to a manufactured
biological...?!

douglas

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword, get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:23:15 -0500
From: "Michael D. Peters" <Letterworks@Comten.com>
Subject: Re: Spofustuff

Roderick

Please ship a copy my way and thanks.

Mike Peters
Letterworks@Comten.com

- -----Original Message-----
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Date: Tuesday, December 02, 1997 8:58 PM
Subject: Spofustuff


>
>
> Ok... I won't be able to get all the various Famille Spofulam bits
>and pieces collated into one big document until Saturday PM at the least.
>If anyone wants it, please email me privately, and I'll just do one honking
>big mailing...
>
>Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
>
>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:20:33 -0700
From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>
Subject: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)

In brainstorming for some starship creation, I came up with an interesting
idea which may - or may not - have been brought up before.

If it has, all I need is the old information; if not, then I need the help
of some high-speed design types until I'm more familiar with
"seat-of-your-pants designing."

Your bridge crew are probably the most expensive to train, and are
conveniently all in one place, so why not try and save them before you ship
gets blasted into smithereens. (Granted that those in the engineering
section may have something to say about that, but that's beside the point
for this discussion.)

Essentially what I'm envisioning is almost like a modular portion of the
ship with explosive bolts that can be ejected (ala current fighter ejection
seats). So the entire bridge doubles as an escape pod. I suppose at higher
tech levels you might even have it tied into the computer, so when it
anticipates catastrophic damage, it scuttles the plug.

Anyway, that's the idea. I welcome opinions and constructive criticisms.


Schoon

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:00:44 -0500 (EST)
From: tanya <tgallus@interlog.com>
Subject: [none]

unsubscribe
 

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 19:41:11 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: What is virus ?

	Phillip McGregor wrote:

[snip]
>non-sentient, non-"living", non-*Cymbeline* chips into "living", "sentient",
>"Cymbeline" chips. This is like saying that I can turn *you* into a hamster by
>transmitting the DNA code of a Hamster to you via email! Quite ridiculous.
>
[snip]


	This line had me LMHO.  Can you just imagine the potential?  Yer
average netizen would no doubt be looking like a particularly bad cross
between a pekinese, a cockroach, a horned toad, a squid, and a shoggoth
after a few months..:)

	It's too bad that it's impossible.  It'd be a lot of fun.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:48:20 -0500 (EST)
From: GDWGAMES@aol.com
Subject: Asst Deckplans

 Sebastian Davids asketh:

> where could I find deckplans for the following spacecraft & modules:
> - - Aurora-Class Clipper, RCEG, p. 131
> - - Manta-Class Fueler, RCEG, p. 130
> - - Maggart-Class Clipper, RCEG, pp.136 & 137
> - - the various 'clipper modules', RCEG, pp. 132-5
> - - the various cutter modules, especially the 'station modules', RCEG, pp.
> 143-5

I worked these up as part of the perpetually delayed _Clipper_ book project.
I'm not sure I can extract them from the machine that currently holds them
prisoner... : ) 

> I figure something like various cutter station modules attached to each
> other or something along our _real world_ arctic research stations ... any
> other ideas/suggestions/sites to look at etc.?

I had also designed a central "connector" for joining four or more modules
together...it was shaped rather like a maltese cross in plan view, and could
be stacked for larger stations. 

I'd say one habitation module, one lab module and a couple of supply modules
would be a good starting point. A commo module maybe, more supply and
habitation modules depending on how long the station is expected to go
between resupply trips. 

Loren Wiseman

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:56:34 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: A letter home from =?iso-8859-1?Q?G=FC=FCstag?=

	Note: this is a summary of the last few games in my group's current
Trav campaign.  It's being run by Ross Coburn, with myself, fellow TML'ers
Glenn Grant and Jason Jones, and one of our non-net-enabled friends as
players.  I'll be doing these up, in the form of letters home from time to
time.

	The campaign is set in the Spinward Marches, right at the outset of
the 5FW.  We're using the MT task system.  It revolves around the
Kigikikaniishi, a 200td SAR & salvage vessel that is the sole vessel and
only major asset of Spinward Search and Rescue, a salvage and rescue
operation based out of Jewell.

	The crew consists of:

Captain Edeli (Popie) Savan'ateeli: a bearded grizzled ex-belter from
Glisten.  A father to his crew and just the person for saving your bacon
when the drive goes on the fritz, the computer crashes, and you get a hull
breach.  Not so good at running a covert operation.

Deschenko Maharin: Born in the Darrian Confederation. After having fled
from Nosea to Frenzie after failing a college admission exam, he joined the
Imperial Navy.  Tall, dark, and quiet, he flies the ship through vacuum,
gas giants, and ammonia oceans with equal aplomb.  Played by Jason.

Mustapha Shaqui Berengi Jones: A former bloodthirsty scum-of-the-spacelanes
pira..., er privateer, he handles nav, sensors, and commo.  Vaguely
disreputable, and has far too many tattoos to be non-sinister-looking.
Played by Glenn.

G=FC=FCstag ("Two U's!  Two =FCmlauts!") Khiaanu Averglard: a basaherder fro=
m
Capon who joined the Marines and became a medic.  Is in charge of repairing
carnage.  Uses the ship to carry his gonads from port to port, and the rest
of the crew to carry him from bar to bar.  Played by yours truly.

Siich Zukan: the (NPC) gunner.  Blond, melancholy, mysterious, and has
exhibited disturbing signs of psionic potential.

				***************


Dear Ma:

	By now, you've probably heard that war has broken out between us
and those dirty Zhos.  Don't worry; I'm OK, in one piece, haven't been
called back up yet, and still have my job.  I may have kinda sort've
_caused_ the war, but we got out all right.  And, like I promised you, I'm
still wearing my goggles and my burnoose whenever I go outside.

	Anyhow, I was glad to get your last letter.  I'm sorry to hear that
Irm=E4=E4 got sat on by a basa.  He always was a little bit slow to use his
prod.  Oh well, I'm sure he'll be OK once he gets out of hospital.  It
doesn't sound like he was totally squashed, so I'm sure he'll recover fine.
I think of him a lot. I've told the story about that time the two of us
went varmint hunting together and only realized we'd forgotten the rocket
launcher _after_ we'd cornered the critter to the guys.  They all think
it's really funny.

	A lot has happened since the last time I wrote.  I think I told you
about getting the job with Spinward Search and Rescue: well, things are
going OK.  It's been pretty slow (except for a couple of times which I'll
get to).  Most of the time I spend deployed to my action station (my bunk).
The guys are a pretty good bunch.  Popie (that's what the captain tells us
to call him) really knows his stuff and has a good head for business.
Mustapha is pretty sharp with the sensors, and is a good guy for an
ex-pirate.  And Deschencko is a hot pilot and pretty good in a fight.  Ya
gotta love somebody who won't hesitate to shoot a cop to save his buddies.
And we just hired this chick named Siich.  I think she's hot for me; she
makes a lot of direct eye contact.  Thing is I think that she's psionic, so
I spend a lot of my time thinking really perverted thoughts.  I don't know
whether it's working, or how I want it to work yet.

	I'm sure that by now you're wondering about all the hints I've been
dropping; caused the war, shipping with psionic pirates, and shooting cops.
Well, it's all true, and I left out the bits about the nuke too (don't
worry; we nuked the site from orbit, and I didn't take a single rem).
Where to start?

	Well, about 6-7 weeks ago, we were docked at Jewell Highport for
annual maintenance.  There wasn't much I could do, so there I was in a bar
with the guys when Popie gets a call from someone at Sternmetalls.  All
very hush-hush it was.  So we pile into a cab and head off to meet them,
and the first thing they do is make us sign this contract that says that we
can't tell anybody anything about what we hear.  It was pretty scary, but
all things considered I don't think that you're going to leak this, and
even if you did only the clan would hear and I doubt that by the time that
happens Sternmetalls is going to come snooping around the steppes on Capon.
But all the same, let me save this story for when I get back, OK?

	Anyhow, upshot is is that they wanted us to go evacuate this secret
research base a jump away from Zhodani space.  Seems that Sternmetalls
thinks its a really bright idea to take a top secret fusion research lab,
and stick it right next door to the Zhos on this stinking cold planet under
an ammonia ocean a klick and a half deep, with only a few people on the
mainworld knowing it's there, and then lose contact with it.  That's
exactly what they did.

	So basically, our job was to berth the Kigikikaniishi on the
Mirtschaum (this Reserve Navy dropship, which had enough low berths to
store the entire base crew), and jump out to where the base was.  The guys
and I were to handle the actual search and rescue bits, with backup from
the Marines on the dropship, and recuperate the test reactors and data and
scientists, and then nuke the site and get out.  I think that Sternmetalls
had an idea the war was coming.

	So we get to buy a whole bunch of really cool gear at cost from His
Imperial Majesty's Navy (I got this nifto neural sensor that's going to be
great for varmint hunting, and a couple of Marine issue gauss pistols that
G=FC=FCbotz's kids are going to love), and have our annual maintenance
completed by the deck crews on the Mirtschaum, plus a really hefty fee:
Popie really managed the negotiations well.  So on we board and off we go.

	Trouble was is that the bonehead astrogator on the Mirtschaum
screwed up, and we misjumped.  We were all pretty messed up; poor Siich
(who's a real cutie) went straight into a coma, and I spent the rest of the
week hopped up on pain pills and stims getting Navy boys to barf into the
bags and not their bedding.  And to make things worse, while we did emerge,
which is why I'm here writing this, we were a couple of parsecs away from
where we were supposed to be... and of all the damndest pieces of luck,
right on top of a Zhodani destroyer.

	Soon as the Navy boys figured this out, they ran like hell.  They
loaded the nuke (a great big multi-megaton fusion bomb) and a fire team of
Marines onboard double-quick, and kicked us out the hangar bay doors as
soon as we'd got it strapped down in the hold.  As soon as Deschencko got
us a jump solution, out we went.  While the Kigi can pull 6 G's at a pinch
(that's the great thing about flying on a tug) it can't outrun a Zho
detlaser missile...

	Anyhow, Deschy managed to jump us right in-system, which was good,
because a couple of those marines were killer gamblers.  We refuelled, and
headed for the target.  Unfortunately, to make a long story short, someone
had got there before us.  The base crew was gone (and long dead; their
escape pods probably ran out of power weeks before we got there), and so
were the scientists and most of the test reactors.  And to boot the jerks
had half-blown up the main reactor and flooded the base.  So there we were,
trying to figure out what the hell had happened, under 1500 meters of
liquid ammonia, with the base too radioactive to deal with.  Popie was real
good; he's a great waldobot operator.  We managed to reseal the base, and
salvaged a bunch of stuff via waldo.  We also found a couple of corpses;
somebody had shot a couple of people and left them to dissolve in the
ammonia, and one of the bastards who did it had slipped up and got his leg
crushed when the tried to move the last reactor.  His buddies left him
there as well.  The only thing uglier than a corpse is one that's been
soaked in ammonia for a week or two.

	All told, I was darn glad to get out of there; it was pretty spooky
sitting there with only a little superdense between us and far too much
radioactive caustic poison, watching waldocamera views of a dark, powerless
habitat that had been with flooded with ammonia for weeks.  There were
ghosts around every corner, if you know what I mean.  After we'd figured
things out and salvaged what we could, Popie and I hustled the nuke into an
airlock, activated the timer, and we got the hell out of there.  I'll show
you a vid of what a couple of megatons of fusion bomb going off under an
ammonia ocean looks like from orbit when I get back.  It's a pretty awesome
sight.

	I spent the rest of the week in jump getting skinned alive at cards
by the Marines, and planning on how to get off the ship and into the
wilderness if we got interned by the Zhos if they'd captured Jewell while
we were gone.  I was figuring on bailing with Mustapha and one of the
Marines, via grav chute.  But as it happened the Zhos had tried for Efate
first, so I didn't get the chance.

	Anyhow, while I was liaising with the Marines (a pretty good bunch,
all told), Popie was hacking into a few of the computers he'd salvaged, and
found a couple of clues.  So off we went to Sternmetalls, and reported in.
They weren't happy with the news, but told us to stick around... and a day
or so later, hired us back on to go looking for the missing reactors.
Seems that between what Popie had found and their own intelligence, they'd
had an idea of where the reactors might have gone.  So they hired us to go
to Lysen to find them, before we'd even had a chance to read up on how the
war was going.

	Now this made me worry a bit, since what we do is SAR and salvage,
not espionage.  After a while I figured that we were just being sent out
there to beat around the bush and be clumsy, and Sternmetalls' real spooks
would be there quietly watching to see what we stirred up.  Since we'd been
ordered to nuke the research _and_ the crew if needs be, I didn't like the
idea of being used as bait...  but since they were paying us real well, off
we went.

	Lysen is a pretty dull little place; slight Co^2 taint to the
atmosphere, dim red sun, lots of rock and desert and not much to commend
it.  And it's this bizarre balkanized multi-corporate anarchotocracy.  I
never did figure out whether there was a government at all.  Even law
enforcement is run by a bunch of private security firms that protect you as
much as you're willing to pay them.  So anyhow, we arrive, and immediately
begin advertising our presence as loud as possible by doing net searches
for the prime suspects.  We bribed customs officials and had Sternmetalls'
local big cheese drive over to our berth in a limo to meet us.

	After a couple of days of this, by which time probably every damn
criminal thug on the planet knew why we were there, we found out that the
agent for the captain of the ship which we thought might have done the
dirty work at the research base liked to hang out at this bar called The
Setting Sun.  It was a pretty nice bar; it was built into a cliffside, had
three levels, and had a great view of the sunset.  The walls were done in
local rock, which was kinda reddish too, so the colours were really wild in
there in the evening.  And the prices weren't bad, too.

	So what we did is we started hanging out there in shifts, looking
for the guy.  He isn't just some local mob type; for the subsector he is
pretty big fish; one of his companies runs the local system defense fleet.
We did this for a few days, until one evening Deschencko and I are there
trying not to look too suspicious, when a couple of renta-cops in really
bad uniforms tell us to take a hike because we're making their VIP
customers nervous with our guns (I had my varmint pistol* and Deschy had
one of the gauss pistols we'd bought from the Navy).  Anyhow, we tried
negotiating, we tried to be nice, we pointed out that everyone else in the
bar was packing too, we even tried to buy coverage from their company.
Nothing doing.  Basically, they were just harassing us to get us out of
there.

	So, being civilized people, we did what we had to.  We got up and
let them escort us out of the bar.  And then we called Popie and Mustapha,
and they came right over, waved to us as they went in (we were hanging
around in the shadows by the entrance), and took our places.

	I haven't a clue what the hell it was that they did, because not
ten minutes later they come marching back out again, escorted by the same
two rentacops that had given us a hard time.  The rentacops walk Popie and
Mustapha right past us (it was dark and they didn't notice us) and down the
street a ways.

	What happened next was a life lesson; from now on, if I get a
chance to suckerpunch a cop (or anyone else) from behind, I'll take it.
Sometimes if you don't, you have to shoot them later.  What the cops do is
walk our buddies past us, away from the entrance to the bar, and then pull
guns to shoot them with.  Luckily, Mustapha and I had been expecting
something like this; I dropped one cop right away (killed him too, I think,
which is kinda hard on him even if he was just a two-bit thug) from about
15 meters.  Deschy missed the other one, and then things got a little
hairy; the second cop shot Mustapha in the arm, Deschy's gauss pistol
shorted out on him (that's the bad thing about gauss guns), the cop missed
me and hits the deck, yelling for me to drop it, and I just kept on
shooting until my varmint pistol went empty.  Luckily, I missed Mustapha,
who'd passed out, and managed to clip the cop good with at least one shot.
He managed to hobble away, later, which was kinda dumb of him.  If he'd
stuck around, I would have patched him up once I'd done with Mustapha's arm.

	But anyhow, before I could get to him, Mr. Big Boss Man himself
shows up at the club door to admire the carnage and mayhem.  He was being
all big and bluff, and didn't at all seem to mind that we (well, I) had
blasted a couple of his flunkies a few seconds before.  He said that he was
covered; he might even have been, too.  Anyhow, he politely (well given the
circumstances) invited us to come for a ride with him in his limo.  He gave
me the time to patch up Mustapha's arm, and then off we drive to parts
unknown, talking on the way and me trying to keep Mustapha from messing up
the upholstery.

	Upshot was is that Mr. Big was in the process of being ripped off
by a couple of his associates.  One of them was his wife, who'd taken such
a dislike to Popie and Mustapha that she'd ordered the rentacops to have
them killed.  The other was the captain of the corsair that raided the
research base.  Anyhow, he said he'd deal with things, while we enjoyed the
hospitality of his country place.

	Well, the country place was about 200 meters up a sheer cliff a few
hundred klicks off in the desert.  It was pretty nice and comfortable, but
it was a long way down and nowhere to go.   And the bastard locked us in
there for a week while he dealt with things.  A few hours after we got
there, some of his flunkies dropped Siich off too; she was pretty scared,
and somehow seems to have spotted Mr. Big's wife for a Zhodani agent of
some sorts, and was convinced we were all going to die.  Now the way she
said this got me suspicious that Siich, who's real cute and likes to look
people in the eye, might also be psionic, since I can't figure out how she
learned all this stuff if she wasn't.  So I started thinking really
perverted and ugly thoughts, just in case she was listening.  Still am, but
I can't tell whether she's heard.  Anyhow...

	So about a week later, The Dude Himself comes back to pick us up,
looking like the cat that ate the canary and all happy to see us.  Seems
he'd figured things out.  So he gave us this datacube to give to our bosses
at Sternmetalls, gave us a lift back to our docking berth, and told us to
stay away from Lysen in future.  Ma, I have every intention of doing
precisely that.

	Anyhow, we got paid in full by Sternmetalls when we got back, which
is kinda lucky; the exec who'd been giving us our marching orders threw up
when she saw what was on the datacube.  I think that what she saw was a
demand for a pretty big ransom.  Anyhow, serves her right for sending a
bunch of inexperienced stooges (that's us) to do a spy's job.

	And that brings us up to today.  I don't know what we're going to
do next, but we made a very tidy profit on the past six weeks, so Popie
will be able to pay me and make payments on the ship no sweat.  Sorry that
I haven't written more often, but as you can see, I've been very busy.  Say
hello to everyone for me, and tell Irm=E4=E4 I say he's a grikhead for letti=
ng
that basa sit on him.  Another year or two of this and I'll have enough to
buy a crawler of my own, and then I'll come on home.

Your loving son,


G=FC=FCstag.




*Author's note: actually a damage 3 11.74mm magnum autopistol with a
12-round clip.  Caponese varmints are big and mean as hell.


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 22:22:53 -0500
From: Craig Janssen <daili@remove.me.gate.net>
Subject: Auction Updated

The auction has been updated.

The url is:

http://www.gate.net/~daili/auction.htm

Thanks,

Craig Janssen

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 11:58:06
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Free Traders and Econ History 101

Various posters are right. Free Traders are uneconomic for trade rules as
written in the various incarnations of Traveller.

Hans is also right, in that traders are only economic doing 35 jumps a
year, which means you need a Trade Station including a warehouse on planet,
and preferably a blue crew/gold crew arrangement as well, in order to
maximize the time the asset (the starship) is earning money.

The solution that combines the two is that free traders do long-distance
trade, and the corporate concerns do short-haul trade.

The Free Trader specialises in trade that goes further - in most cases a
lot further - than one jump. That way, they get the short turnaround (jump
in, refuel and go) of the corporate corcerns, which leads to the equivalent
distances travelled. Their cargos are high-worth, time-dependant cargos.

There are a lot of those in Traveller - most military goods are worth in
the range of a megacredit per displacement ton, and if you can buy them at
Sylea at a 10% discount, then at Cr1500 per jump you can afford to go at
least 30 jumps to find somewhere that will buy them at full price before
you start losing money.

Most Free Traders cant afford to fill their holds with such cargos, so the
Patron, who owns the cargo, comes along, probably bringing a couple of
ex-Marines to make sure that the crew dont try to hijack the cargo :)

Either that, or the Patron kindly employs the Captain's family on his
country estate, and expects that you will send a letter home each time you
dock for fuel.

Hey, with one swoop we just made trading far more like Adventuring and gave
the Pirates a break (cargos may be valuable enough to risk losing a ship to
capture them).

Historical examples of such trade include the Samarkand route of the
Muscovite merchants, anybody going to China before the telegraph and, of
course, the Spanish Main.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2144
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Traveller-digest     Thursday, December 4 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2145



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)
Re: Request : Computer Ideas
Piracy!
[none]
Re: 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?
Re: 5th Frontier War
Re: I need a plot device...
Re: Free Traders and Econ 101
Re: What is virus ?
Re: FF&S-TNE and presentation (was Re: Virus--This...)
Re: Subject: Re: What is virus ?
Technological conservatism.
Virus and TNE
re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)
Re: Asst Deckplans
Absence
Biologic Components : Care and Feeding

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 21:43:54 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)

In mail you write:

> In brainstorming for some starship creation, I came up with an interesting
> idea which may - or may not - have been brought up before.
>
> If it has, all I need is the old information; if not, then I need the help
> of some high-speed design types until I'm more familiar with
> "seat-of-your-pants designing."
>
> Your bridge crew are probably the most expensive to train, and are
> conveniently all in one place, so why not try and save them before you ship
> gets blasted into smithereens. (Granted that those in the engineering
> section may have something to say about that, but that's beside the point
> for this discussion.)
>
> Essentially what I'm envisioning is almost like a modular portion of the
> ship with explosive bolts that can be ejected (ala current fighter ejection
> seats). So the entire bridge doubles as an escape pod. I suppose at higher
> tech levels you might even have it tied into the computer, so when it
> anticipates catastrophic damage, it scuttles the plug.
>
> Anyway, that's the idea. I welcome opinions and constructive criticisms.

Well, I have to ask what the *point* is. If you are under attack, that
"escape pod" is going to be *less* well protected than the ship. So
it's *less* likely to survive. 

Remember, unlike the Enterprise, the Galactica, and Imperial Star
Destroyers, a *real* spacegoing warship will not have the bridge
anywhere *near* the outer hull. It'll be in towards the center of the
ship so as to have the most protection possible. A "window" gives you
no useful info when the enemy is thousands of km away.

And since ships damaged from something other than combat neither sink
nor fall out of the sky (unless operating *way* too close to a planet),
again, there's no *need* to eject. And you'll be easier to find if you
stick with the ship.

In combat, if you are about to get nailed, you either try to cut power
and "play dead" (the escape pod acting like a hunk of debris would be
equally survivable), or you surrender (the escape pod doing the same
would also be survivable). 

Note that in both cases, the results are the same. Either you get away
with the trick (in the first case), or you are captured as prisoners
(in the second case). So where's the advantage in the pod?

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 02:07:55 EST
From: SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Request : Computer Ideas

>Elise acquires a new computer; it turns out to have biological components
>in addition to the usual electronic, solid state ones.  Big pinkish blobs
>in fishbowl-like life support tanks are brought on board and hooked into
>the main computer system (incidentially spilling out into the ships
>passageway) along with many other new components and systems.

I like the 1950s comic book Weird Science-y feel to this.  Especially since I
imagine these bowls as being literally fishbowls. :)

>Of course, Elise didn't trust the thing at first, and there have been
>two-three months of encouraging signs and interesting but undetailed
>developments to work from.  A this point she has the thing playing
>Mechwarrior against human opponents and doing quite well on the tactical
>side.  It doesn't act as well on the more judgemental strategic side, but
>that should be true of any artificial thinker.  It can only think inside
>the box, so to speak, and unpredictable, non-programmed strategies should
>be able to defeat it.

Having something "living" as part of the computer would allow _true_
randomness to  enter into the equation, which means it could actually be
pretty good at going "outside the box".  It doesn't automatically make it a
"Turing Machine" but I think that living matter and massive computer databases
could turn it into a pretty random opponent.

Especially considering the fact that we are talking several thousand years in
the future here.

>Now, I'd like to implement the next step in this development.  I would like
>to get "outside" my own "box" and solicit some suggestions not my own.  I'd
>like the computer to become a plot hook of some sort, an lead to an
>adventure.

Hmmm...  Naasirka might want one for their own research.  It could be just the
part that Delgado needs for its new line of warbots and robotic vehicles.
Most megacorporations would have an interest in it right off the bat, even if
it just turns out to be a fancy, delicate, bulky novelty.

The living matter could have unpredictable growth rates, or could die off
inexplicably, and where are you going to find replacement "chunks"?
Especially if the computer is hooked up to vital systems.

The living matter could introduce unwanted elements of randomness into the
calculation (again, specifically if hooked up to the vital systems).

The living matter could be (ironically) extremely sensitive to electro-
magnetic fields and react unpredictably or develop cancers and tumors (is
there a doctor on board?  do you know blobbie-biology?).  The blobbies could
be somehow psionic and crush everybody's minds into ooze.  Just kidding.  But,
they could be sensitive to psionics and react strangely but predictably.  The
Imperium may want to examine the genetic code for help in sniffing out
insidious Zhodani agents.  Aslan could be extremely sensitive to the blobbies
and it could be uncomfortable or painful.

The genetic code could be already patented by SuSAG and they demand the whole
kit and kaboodle if they happen to find out about it.

The blobbies could be quarantined like fruit at an airport.

These are all just off the top of my head.  I haven't really put alot of
thought into any of the options, and I could probably come up with tons more.

>I'd like to develop some technical aspect of why this computer is better
>using either the nature of trinary logic, biological computing, or both.

Trinary computers could be faster by a good degree.  Combined with organic
material could be much faster.  Could be slower in doing some things though.
Storage space would be increased by a pretty good factor.  Code for the
hardware would be smaller, requiring far less instructions which would
increase the speed of the machine considerably.  Encryption created using the
computer would be more difficult to break, and it would probably be a little
better at decrypting stuff.

The possibilities could potentially be limitless, especially using the already
high-tech far future technology.  After all, the neurons in our own brains
have 8 seperate states I believe.  3 seperate states could be amazingly
"intelligent" (maybe not sentient, but able to really, really perform).

Hope this helps somewhat.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 23:47:50 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Piracy!

Hello,
  Sorry, false alarm. Actually, it's really only shipping related.
>Date: Mon, 1 Dec 1997 16:27:29 +0100 (MET)
>From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
>Subject: RE: Insurance rates & Al Morai
....
>I'm not using the canonical freight and passenger rates. Instead I'm
....
>avoid the discrepancy of ships that can't turn a profit merrily plying
>the spacelanes in defiance of economic logic.

  Quite reasonable.

>For simplicity's sake I'm assuming a rate of return of 6.25% for banks
>and owners alike. This gives owners an effective rate of return slightly
>higher than that of the banks, but that is quite reasonable since if an
>owner goes bankrupt he loses everything while the bank still has title
>to the ship. And it is so much simpler.

  FWIW, we wish we knew what a so-called free-market equilibrium interest
rate was in the 3I. It could potentially be a few points below 6%.

>>less 5-8 MCr ship-specific outlay, for approx. MCr 75 net, or around
>>9%, before reinvestment/depreciation, and dividends, and less lost
>>(partial) interest earnings for the ship construction period.

  The above factors will reduce dividends by a large proportion.

>If a regular, established line took a profit much in excess of 6.25%,
>surely some other line would move in and undercut it, wouldn't it?

  Depends. I can't recall the technical term, but we would like to know
whether tightly scheduled shipping is a readily enterable market. If your
customers get a few points discount for multi-year contracts, and other
companies with their own routes want to keep the peace, then any small
newcomer can be exterminated by predatory pricing based on volume and
cash reserves. Therefore, the little guys won't try for the same market
as you.

....
>OK, let me put it another way: How can four patrol ships make a difference
>big enough to account for 3% of the gross? If the transport ships was

  If the operating costs (and depreciation?) are a tax deduction, then it
becomes a lot easier. I don't think we want to explore this at length...

>armed (at the cost of a reduction in cargo space, mind you), what do you

  Twenty (HG) Dt for one each maximum factor laser and sand battery. Minimal
crew requirements. Any small ship taking a hit (Comp 4+) is a wreck. At the
very least, you no longer pay any external insurance charges - a big savings.

>>good thing, and reasonable (~"economics drives [most] things"). This
>>roughly changes things to 80 MCr gross, and close to MCr 30 net, even
>>with over-rated operations costs; 
>
>IMO this would result in lesser freight and passenger charges, not greater
>profits.

  Likely an equilibrium comprised of the two, based on the ease of entering
the market, and the (not always rational) willingness to do so.

>>security by its own staff, and to provide security against hostile ops.
>>Again, as CE's, IN subsidy for purchase (from the IN, obviously) may exist.
>
>Yes, but 3% of gross is not small potatoes. Does the result really justify
>the expense unless it really improves the survival of the freighters
>markedly?

  Catch-22. They must be justified in some way (perks for the board? :> ),
but they don't tell us how. Again, it's possible that some unspecified
input or effect makes it desirable. It's much easier to ignore those boats
for calculating the shipping arms viability. Perhaps those ships are "loaned"
to planetary governments that are helpful about port concessions, to enable
them to crack down on irresponsible small operators, who everyone knows are
all smugglers, slavers, and pirates anyway...

        Yours truly,
                Steven Hudson

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:09:04 +-1100
From: Scott Levy <becubed@connexus.apana.org.au>
Subject: [none]

Leonard Erickson said
>Note that in both cases, the results are the same. Either you get away
>with the trick (in the first case), or you are captured as prisoners
>(in the second case). So where's the advantage in the pod?

What about fitting the escape pod with a jump drive?
They could then jump back to their staging point.

Scott

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 12:40:40 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Kenneth Bearden wrote:

> Michael Kent wrote:
> 
> > Anyone know where I can get a copy of the 5th Frontier War Sourcebook?
>
> I've never even heard of this before.  Was there such an animal?
> I've got FFW, but I've never heard of a sourcebook.
> 
> Kenneth.
> 

The one nearest to a Fifth Frontier War Sourcebook to me would be the 
'Spinward Marches Campaign'. There was much in it about 5FW.


L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:30:47 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: 5th Frontier War

On Tue, 2 Dec 1997, Daniel Poulin wrote:

> Like many of us mentioned, the closest thing is the Spinward Marches 
> sourcebook that details the Fifth Frontier War.  I use that book in all 
> my new groups (this is my third group now - I move a lot around the 
> country) and I always start these groups in 1105.  If you have 
> imagination you can build the tension up to the war and the conflict 
> between Santanocheev and Norris, with Naval officers taking side along 
> the way.  This is truly a great book.

That's why I started my campaign in 1105, too, and one of the players is 
a Zho agent, what is not yet known by the other players! (My players do 
not know the history from now)
I do not yet know if my group will be the ones who in fact start this 
war, but let's see ...
The first maneuvers at shionty just were abandonded, as my newspaper 
showed these days ...

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:26:35 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: I need a plot device...

Time for me to get into this, too. I myself have one of my players 
playing munchkin, with such scenes as: "I'm taking the light grenade from 
my uniform, that I've got coincidentally at me" (The effect was that he 
did not only blind his enemies, but also the player's group, although he 
only wanted to scare them away - but what do you expect of some bikers?)

Fact is, you must get a thumb onto this early enough, or it is getting 
hard - I learned this lesson by myself. But some ideas for your plot 
that I used:

In the Adventure 'Artifacts unearthed' form JTAS 26 my group went in 
there with two battledresses and one FGMP. (one of the dresses is a 
former marine and good roleplayer, so I let him this one. The Air/Raft 
they earlier had was bombed away by a psychopathic killer, but that's 
another story.)
Remember, the planet has a high CO2 concentration (The O2 is so less 
that in my campaign the group had to wear combination masks):
Every time the FGMP was fired, the whole area filled with Carbon dust, 
which reduced the visibility to none (and made the weapon less effective). 
Additionally, the shift of the atmosphere that was induced by the shot 
made the carniworms even more agressive. And I sent them more  
carniworms they could kill anyway with one battery - no one falling by 
the first shot!
On the way back, our player still did not yet realize he was making more 
havoc with his weapon that he made good with, another one pulled his 
socket out of the battery. They were short before an interpersonal fight, 
but that was NOT my problem! 

If you've got the JTAS, this will probably get you an idea for the next 
session. Or perhaps has anyone a new idea for me?

One next thing I'm planning is to let them visit a colony village some way 
off-road of the cities. When they arrive there, they will find a lot of 
dead rat-like animals in some tons, and dead bodies everywhere in the huts.
Should anyone make an analysis they will find two words one their scanner:

*Yersinia pestis*

And one of the Garages is empty ...

That would be my version of the biologic hazardous agent.
Don't get your Gamemaster into an evil mood!
Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:23:31 +0100 (MET)
From: Hans Rancke-Madsen <rancke@diku.dk>
Subject: Re: Free Traders and Econ 101

Ian Whitchurch writes:

>Various posters are right. Free Traders are uneconomic for trade rules as
>written in the various incarnations of Traveller.

The basic problem with the trade rules is the uniform freight and passenger
rates for all ships and jump distances. A 200 T ship can certainly make a
living if only it is allowed to charge enough to cover its expenses. And
all that requires is that it has no rivals underbidding it (And has no
artificial upper limit to the rates, of course). Thus a 200 T ship can make
a living jumping back and forth between two systems IF the trade between
the systems is too small to be profitable for a larger ship (larger ships
are more economical than smaller, but only if they can fill their holds and
cabins -- for a fixed small trade volume the smaller ship is, of course,
more economical).

>Hans is also right, in that traders are only economic doing 35 jumps a
>year, which means you need a Trade Station including a warehouse on planet,
>and preferably a blue crew/gold crew arrangement as well, in order to
>maximize the time the asset (the starship) is earning money.
> 
>The solution that combines the two is that free traders do long-distance
>trade, and the corporate concerns do short-haul trade.

Unfortunately the most economic way to do long-distance hauling is by
jump-3 and jump-4 ships (Provided the distance is a number of parsecs
that is evenly divisible by the jump number and the route dosen't
include short jumps; I haven't done the calculations, but I would imagine
that a jump-2 ship may be better than a jump-3 or jump-4 ship for some
distances and some routes). You could propably come up with some jump-2
long-haul routes, but not many, and few or no jump-1 routes.

>The Free Trader specialises in trade that goes further - in most cases a
>lot further - than one jump. That way, they get the short turnaround (jump
>in, refuel and go) of the corporate corcerns, which leads to the equivalent
>distances travelled. Their cargos are high-worth, time-dependant cargos.

But why would the companies not get into that trade too? Again, all other
things being equal, a larger ship is more economic than a small one.
 
>There are a lot of those in Traveller - most military goods are worth in
>the range of a megacredit per displacement ton, and if you can buy them at
>Sylea at a 10% discount, then at Cr1500 per jump you can afford to go at
>least 30 jumps to find somewhere that will buy them at full price before
>you start losing money.

Ah, trade... Yes, my calculations so far have only dealt with straight
freight and passenger traffic. Yes, the additional profit on a good
trade cargo can help out, but where did this free trader get the money
to buy a load of military hardware worth more than the full value of the
ship he has an 80% loan in? Again, this sort of trade seems to be more
in the line of a company than a free trader.

>Most Free Traders can't afford to fill their holds with such cargos, so
>the Patron, who owns the cargo, comes along...

Trouble is, this means the patron is pouring all HIS profit (on the cargo)
straight into the ship in which he has no interest at all. Plus, if you're
talking about 30 jumps-1, then a jump-3 ship will be about 30% cheaper for
him and he will get his money 3 times faster. For long-distance travel you
have to factor in the loss he suffers from not being able to reinvvest his
money for over a year.

Frankly, I don't see how a Free Trader can compete with an established
company as long as he has a new ship and the bank payments associated
therewith (And I most especially don't understand how he managed to
persuade a bank to loan him the money in the first place). OTOH I don't
see why a group of PCs have to have a new ship. Why not let the first
ship roll a PC captain makes give him a 40 year old ship worth only 25%
of the original purchase price and the usual mortgage? With bank payments
one quarter size he can compete and with a 40 year old ship the Referee
can siphon off excess money by judiciously applied breakdowns.


      Hans Rancke
University of Copenhagen
     rancke@diku.dk
- ------------
        "The referee should determine the nature of subsequent
         events based on the individual situation."
                                _76 Patrons_, p. 8

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:50:17 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: What is virus ?

TravelrTNE@aol.com wrote:

>>>1)No computer virus could do this to so many diverse systems.
>I'd just say here that there's noone alive who knows what a computer from
>3700+ years in the future is gonna look like, be composed of, or be capable
>of.  NOONE. If u think u do, i got a bridge i wanna sell u. Personally, i
>don't think it'll take that long to have full AI.  I think that all of
>Traveller Tech is a bit too slow, but that's another matter.

Speaking of future computer technology, did anyone see the article in New
Scientist (15/11/97) on the work to 'evolve' rather than design chips? Any
thoughts on how it will effect technology?

>>Nothing wrong with TNE *game system* ... well, except for FF&S #1 ... it was
>>simply the background that sucked majorly. In fact, the TNE *game system* is far
>>better than the suck(ish) T4 game system!
> we agree on something. : )

Now there I most definitely disagree. TNE's *rules* were the only Traveller
rules I didn't get on with.

(Note I say *rules* not *background*.)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:42:08 EST
From: SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
Subject: Re: FF&S-TNE and presentation (was Re: Virus--This...)

>  FF&S-TNE (GDW): As mentioned above, this book organizes a wide array
>of design sequences and options in an instantly useable format.

The original FFS is a great book all around.  Technically at times it may be a
bit off, but it introduced standardization into the Traveller universe.  There
were certain "laws" that you'd build things with so that consistency holes
could be all but removed.  Layout-wise it required tons of page flipping, as
the tables were spread throughout the book.  The index tabs on the sides of
the pages were very handy.

However, Mr.McGregor seems to have a burning hatred for FF&S for other
reasons.  He has been bitter about it for at least the six or seven months
I've been around.  Dunno.  Maybe his kids were carried off by roving gearheads
to be part of their dark ceremonies with mechanical pencils and scientific
calculators :)

>  T4: Fire, Fusion and Steel (IG): As with Starships, guide text and
>related hard data seperated by many pages. This leads to denser guide
>text (which makes it even harder to use). Typeface is a good size, but
>is still a sans-serif, and that damn sunburst on each odd-numbered page
>doesn't help.

Actually, once you get used to the design system, having the tables in the
back isn't that bad.  Puts alot less wear on the book flipping back and forth
once you know what you're doing.  As for the sunburst, it hasn't hindered my
use of the product in any way.  In fact, I rather liked the touch.  Its light
enough that, at least to my eyes, it is unobtrusive.

But, I'll admit that putting the tables in the back makes it more difficult to
use for the casual user.

>  Guns, Guns, Guns (any edition; BTRC): Exept for the sunburst, these
>books have all the same problems as FF&S-T4. 'Nuf said.

Um...  Not really.  Actually the most recent one is organized rather well.  It
is well indexed and follows an internal logic that becomes apparent with use.
The only "problem" is that you have to read the design sequences through and
pay careful attention before you even lay pencil to paper.

I have encountered no problems with the layout really, although some stuff is
a little unclear on first reading (I think more a writing problem).


Personally, I enjoy all of the above books and like using them.  I like the
techie aspect of Traveller because it doesn't detract from the game.  If you
don't want to use it, don't use it.  I like the fact that designs that come
from these books will be standard designs.  Mr. McGregor's problem with FFS
was that he thought they were needlessly complicated, but I think if you're
modeling something on real science, the book has to be somewhat complicated to
allow total flexibility.

Sure its no High Guard, but, on the other hand, you can't make a handgun with
High Guard.  You have no control over the components you place in a ship in
High Guard.  There aren't even any _sensors_ in High Guard!  All of the
electronics get absorbed by the "computer" component.  What if I want to
install a higher tech computer into my starship, but leave the sensors the way
they are?  What if I want to install better sensors?  Etc...  etc...

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 08:11:09 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: What is virus ?

Thanks for the discussion on Virus.  I've wondered about it for some 
time, and the references to Vampire Fleets (or Vampire Ships).  All the 
discussion has been very helpful.

Based on the discussion, though, could someone give a concise 
explanation of how the Regency survived (Quarantine, etc.)  From the 
discussion, it sounds as though that would not really be possible, if 
you had to know the virus was coming....  Was it defense in depth?

Remember please, this is from someone who missed out on all the 
intervening years from CT to T4.

Thanks!

Greg
The Count@
<montecristo@hotmail.com>



______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 11:11:58 EST
From: SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
Subject: Technological conservatism.

Where did the technological conservatism in the Traveller universe start, and
why is it that some forms of handwaving are acceptable and unchallenged, while
anything new is scrutinized under a magnifying glass and often discarded?

The Traveller universe is several millenia away, and yet with the exception of
interstellar travel, reactionless drives, cryoberths, lasers and gauss guns,
there is precious little "high tech" around.

Is there some collective mental block on Traveller fans?  Or are certain
things so earth shattering as to change the universe completely (full-scale
nanotech is one such thing that would change the universe completely, I mean,
if replicators could be built by other replicators then there wouldn't be much
need to go from planet to planet in a search for elusive credits) or are there
other reasons?  Computer science seems to be toned down in a huge way in the
Traveller universe as well.

Some examples:  reactionless drives.  jump drives.  If we can suspend our
disbelief to cover these things (one seems to violate the laws of physics, the
other circumvents them nicely) how come artificial intelligence,
teleportation, genetic engineering, cybernetics and nanotech all seem to be
completely taboo?  This is especially strange considering that some of these
are actually becoming pretty advanced in our day, a mere TL8 society or so...

It seems like Traveller fans are unwilling to try to project too far into the
future and can only come up with improvements on today's technology.  It was
refreshing to see the TL16 weapons in the Emperor's Arsenal, weapons that were
more or less "non-canon".  I like the Anti-matter/Contragrav gun for example.
But these ideas in the Traveller universe are few and far between.

When Traveller first came out, there were no really "high-tech" weapons with
the exception of lasers right?  Then, later on came meson guns, and particle
accelerators, and plasma rifles...  But people accepted them and they became
part of the Traveller universe, and in fact, became almost "uniquely"
Traveller.

But why are Traveller fans so conservative on other issues?  Artificial
intelligence and artificial life are glaring examples.

Granted, some advances have the danger of changing the flavor of Traveller's
space-opera feel.  Cybernetics run the risk, if used improperly, of turning
the game into Cyberpunk in space.  Full-scale nanotech would eliminate the
Traveller universe as we know it entirely.  Teleportation has a number of
problems, both in "physics" and in in the very fabric of the universe.

This isn't an attack on anyone or anything.  It just seems that in a game that
relies so heavily on imagination and suspension of disbelief there seems to be
alot lacking when it comes to high-technology.  Sorry if anyone gets offended
by this post, because its not the intent. :)

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:56:39 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Virus and TNE

Nobody has anything original to say; we've all seen these debates a million
times before - why don't we all just stop here before it chokes the list
to death. The (other) Bruce's original summary was actually pretty 
reasonable and neutral - but it's going downhill rapidly.

Similarly, we all know that Mr. McGregor despises FFS1 - hopefully he won't
feel obliged to re-iterate it in response to other people's defences, and 
other people won't feel obliged to defend it.

Let's talk about relativistic rocks instead. Is it possible for a high-pop
world (pop A, TL 15 or so) to envelop itself in a sufficiently dense dust,
sand or gravel cloud that it will destroy all incoming rocks? (Remember, to
the rocks the grains of sand are hitting them at 0.1 c....)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 08:48:37 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)

>Essentially what I'm envisioning is almost like a modular portion of the
>ship with explosive bolts that can be ejected (ala current fighter ejection
>seats). So the entire bridge doubles as an escape pod. I suppose at higher
>tech levels you might even have it tied into the computer, so when it
>anticipates catastrophic damage, it scuttles the plug.

>Anyway, that's the idea. I welcome opinions and constructive criticisms.

It's reasonably sensible. In TNE's module rules, this kind of pod (
(self-sufficient but the owning ship can't operate without it, like the pod
in the modular cutter) requires no special support hardware on the supporting
ship. The bridge would need its own hull enclosing its volume, its own
power source and life support and maybe a maneuver drive. A disadvantage
is that the bridge has to be near the outside of the ship - I prefer to put
combat bridges deep inside (no windows) so they'll be protected by the 
bulk of the ship's systems (even though no combat system currently
models this...)

While you're at it, take advantage of the opportunity to put a big honking
chunk of component armour around the bridge (and the computers...)

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:21:13 -0500
From: Rob_Prior@nynet.nybe.on.ca (Rob Prior)
Subject: Re: Asst Deckplans

Loren writes:
>I worked these up as part of the perpetually delayed _Clipper_ book project.
>I'm not sure I can extract them from the machine that currently holds them
>prisoner... : ) 
>
- -----

I'd love to see these....

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 97 18:02 GMT0
From: aboulton@cix.compulink.co.uk (Andrew Boulton)
Subject: Absence

I'm going away for a week - can somebody remind me how to unsub from 
(and resub to!) the list?
______________________________________________________________________
Andrew M J Boulton                        http://www.cix.co.uk/~fubar/
 "Please allow me to introduce myself, I'm a man of wealth and taste"

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 13:57:52 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Biologic Components : Care and Feeding

Thank You for purchasing Bio-Pro Corp's Model B340 Biological Processer
Array.  You've just bought the best bioprocessor CPU on the market and
we're proud to welcome you into our "family".

This file contains instructions on how to care for your biological
components to get many happy years of use.  It also contains important
information on the limited three (Imperial Std) year warranty that comes
with every product we make.

The Biological Processor is not a true life form, but, like other living
tissue, it must be sustained with oxygen and food.  All that you need is
included in your bio-care kit, and replacement supplies can be found at any
Bio-Pro Corp representative located throughout the subsector.

Your service representative should have demonstrated the process of
refilling and cleaning the protein processing tanks that are attached to
the Model B340 BPA.  Please use only Bio-Pro Corp's protein mixture formula
and clean distilled water to fill this tank.  Use of other products or
water which has not been distilled may void your warranty.  When empty,
clean the nutrient tank with a clean sponge or brush and distilled water.
If additional cleaning is needed, use a mild digestable soap such as
Bio-Pro Cleanall(c) (cat# 11912A) available at your dealer.

The oxygen processing equipment is a self-contained filtering and
processing oxygen plant.  It should provide oxygen to your processor for
many years without service or replacement.  There is an air filter (HEPA
Certified, cat# 11233F) which needs to be replaced within 1 week (Imp.
Std.) of the indicator turning red (approximately every 6 months (Imp.
Std.), depending on local atmosphere).  This filter removes 99.97% of
airborne particles of a size .1 micron or greater.

The containment tank is a sealed, self-contained environment which provides
the Model B340 BPA with all its needs.  Heat, light, nutrition, and oxygen
are all supplied, along with the power/signal transmission equipment and
programming interface which electrochemically stimulates controlled growth
patterns in response to new programs or utilizes appropriate existing
patterns.  Crystalline data storage is included in this unit for standalone
operation.

Your healthy Model B340 BPA should have a bright white color with just a
tinge of pink.  If your B340 should turn grey or green in places you should
bring it to a certified Bio-Pro Corp technician/medic for treatment and
possibly replacement.  Likewise if the protoplasmic fluid surrounding the
processor becomes cloudy or opaque you should bring the unit in for service
immediately.  Opening the containment vessel or attempting service on any
of these closed systems yourself will void your warranty.


Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2145
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Traveller-digest     Thursday, December 4 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2146



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

IG shipments
Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)
Virus and TNE
Re: Starport Procedures and Fees, and other questions.
Re:  Bridge Ejection Plug
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Biologic Components : Care and Feeding
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2143
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2143
Virus -- That wasn't the way it was!
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Starport Procedures and Fees, and other questions.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 14:42:59 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: IG shipments

Well, I finally recieved my advance order copy of the Naval Architect's
Manual.
BUT, suprisingly, Imperial Squadrons came also!

Just started reading the book.  The chapers are

1.   Basic Campaigns
2.   Advanced Campaigns
3.   Warfare
4.   Imperial Squadrons Campaign
5.   Feet Command Structure
6.   Standard Operating Procedure
7.   Special Duty
8.   Extralegal Operations
9.   Personalities (14 of them)
10. Mousetrap (an adventure)

Going to read it now.

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 12:17:54 -0800
From: "Glenn M. Goffin, Esq." <gmgoffin@pacbell.net>
Subject: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)

> From: Sean Bayan Schoonmaker <schoon@aimnet.com>

> Essentially what I'm envisioning is almost like a modular portion of the
> ship with explosive bolts that can be ejected (ala current fighter ejection

This is a nice idea, especially for smaller ships.  In my deckplans for
larger warships, I usually put the bridge deep inside the ship, not near
the surface, so this might not work, as battle damage might block the
escape path of the module through the ship (and space would be wasted in
making the escape path).

I'm not sure if there are deckplans (canonical or not) for ships larger
than the Azhanti High Lightning class, but I see no reason to put the
bridge of a warship where it's easily subject to incoming fire.  The
bridge crew is not looking out a window to make tactical decisions; it's
using input (including visual) from sensors all around the surface of
the ship, which can be wired to any point the designer wants.

- --Glenn

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 15:26:20 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Virus and TNE

>
   Hi.
   
> From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
   
> Let's talk about relativistic rocks instead. Is it possible for a high-pop
> world (pop A, TL 15 or so) to envelop itself in a sufficiently dense dust,
> sand or gravel cloud that it will destroy all incoming rocks? (Remember, to
> the rocks the grains of sand are hitting them at 0.1 c....)
   
   You bet; it wouldn't take very much sand, actually, to transform the
   rock's kinetic energy into x-rays.  Provided this sand was far enough
   away, the x-rays would diffuse to a harmless intensity before striking
   the world.
   
   Judging from Los Alamos's range-energy tables, the sand needed is less
   than 0.1 gram per square centimeter, distributed about some convenient
   depth (say, 10,000 km).  This much sand will slow the rock's protons
   and electrons down to `harmless' energies.  It won't stop the
   neutrons, but they will scatter, just like the x-rays, to a harmless
   intensity if given enough range.
   
   The problem would be getting enough sand around a mainworld.  To place
   a 0.1-g/cm^2 shell at 100 diameters from an earthlike world would
   require 2.0E+19 kg of sand.  That's 1 300,000th the mass of the earth!
   Of course, any tech base advanced enough to pump 450 billion joules
   per gram into a fair-sized rock to get it going at 0.1c should not
   have too much trouble pumping enough energy into 2.0E+19 kg of sand to
   get it into orbit.  For smaller worlds, this mass requirement would
   decrease as the cube of the size rating. (Earth's size rating is 8.)
   
   This argument assumes that 0.1c is fast enough that the rock's impact
   with the sand will dissociate it.  Conservation of momentum tells us
   that a thin veneer of sand obviously will not do much to stop a rock
   unless it dissociates it to a lower density than the sand.
   
   -Rob

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:52:08 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Starport Procedures and Fees, and other questions.

>I'm a new TML member, and this is my first post... so be kind.  :o)

<pat on head>  Don't be frightened boy, we're all friends here (mostly).

>Let's say my Free Trader jumps into a system and proceeds to the main
>world starport (up or down).  Obviously there must be approach
>procedures, 'inbound' and 'outbound' lanes, communication protocols, and
>traffic control.  Can anyone give me pointers to info on this?

Hmmm,  This seems dependent on many things to me.  Frist and foremost is
the campaign style.  If you are not detail oriented or trying to tell a
story you might just have a rote sentance "Ok you get a vector and orbit
from the starport and they certify your documentation".

If, on the other hand, you run a detail oriented adventure there will be a
procedure to follow at every starport and spaceport.  Each will be a little
different, especially for busy ports vs. quiet ports, but will generally be
similar;

1). Arrive insystem.  Immediately send an ID and "Standard Package" which
includes your ship's ownership information, cargo manifest, passenger list,
crew list, letters of credit (see below), and special instructions.  Most
of these are prepared by the starport you departed from and are verified by
their "seal" (electronic probably, but sometimes these would neeed to be
presented in paper form).  There is also a health and safety certification
which establishes that there are no communicable diseases onboard and that
the ship itself is safe to manuver close to populated orbital facilities.

A course to the starport will be given at this time.  A berth or orbit will
be reserved per your preference.  They will need to know how long you are
staying.

2).  Customs inspection.  If the starport has reason to believe there is
any smuggling or other illegal activity going on, or if they are the type
to make random inspections, they will send a "revenue cutter" on an
intercept course to match vectors and board.  This is fairly routine and
can involve any range of activity from a friendly drink in the crew lounge,
to a full blown financial audit or a safety inspection.  Cargo inspections
are generally done in port, since cargo bays are usually as tightly packed
as possible.

>Once docked, there must be more red tape, inspections, paperwork
>(electronic, I'd assume), and fees.  Any info on this as well?

3).  Docking & Unloading.  A "welcoming Party" and Cargo inspections are
the norm.  Generally there is a starport 'Inspector' positioned to patrol
3-12 docking bays looking for illegal activity or cargo.  S/he is generally
equipped with good handheld instrumentation for detecting drugs,
explosives, radioactives, etc. and a radio.  This person will meet the
ship, test the internal atmosphere again for germs etc (a revenue cutter
will do this too) and generally look around.  This person will periodically
show up when cargo is being unloaded, and might (with cause) ask for a
certain cargo container to be opened.

4).  Arranging payment.  The ship will get a bill for berthing and
inspection services, as well as any fines or fees for special cargos, use
of loading/unloading equipment or crew (Union!), etc.  This will generally
be charged against the ship's Account.  This is a "cash" account at the
local branch of the bank the characters use for their financial services.
They carry a letter of credit from the previous location which is downright
difficult to forge, and if it is forged the bank *will* catch up with the
characters eventually.

Some ships carry a lot of cash.  This is suspicious and may generate
unwanted inspections.  All ships carry *some* cash and generally draw a
little "pocket change" against their credit.

Banks are huge, networked bodys which keep duplicate records at every
branch, and at affiliated banks.  If a ship payment is due on 030-1107 and
your ship is in port on that date, they will debit your account for the
payment according to prior arrangements.  The ship's schedule is a matter
of financial record also, and if your schedule says you were in jump on the
date payment was due, the bank will debit your account on the next possible
date.  In all cases, your bank account basically "follows you around"
wherever you go.  Many schemes have been attempted to cheat the bank out of
a payment or two, but most are detected and thwarted.

5).  Departure.  Cargo loading onboard is generally not inspected.  The
ship is certified safe (medically and mechanically), a letter of credit is
issued for the remaining bank balance, a certified cargo manifest and
passenger list is prepared by the starport for the ship (The crew list is
the same - or is updated if necessary), and off they go!

>On an unrelated topic:  is there any good reason why the Imperium has
>physical currency?  Why would electronic funds transfers NOT be
>universal?  Is this simply an artifact of the age of the Traveller game?

Hard currency is good for business.  Seriously, there is, in every culture,
an 'underground economy' in illegal, unlawful, or simply unacceptable goods
and the Imperium has an interest in keeping this trade alive.  If its not
done with Imperial currency it will be done with some other form of trade.

I've blabbed enough now, I'll let others answer your last question.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: 04 Dec 97 17:12:33 EST
From: Jeffery.M.Miller@Dartmouth.EDU (Jeffery M. Miller)
Subject: Re:  Bridge Ejection Plug

- --- Leonard wrote:
Note that in both cases, the results are the same. Either you get away
with the trick (in the first case), or you are captured as prisoners
(in the second case). So where's the advantage in the pod?
- --- end of quote ---
Actually, I think your point illustrates why the escape plug could be such a
cool tool: if the vessel is about to come completely unglued for whateever
reason, an escape pod 1)gets the crew away from the conflagration, 2) renders
the (presumably) larger chunks of the vessel uncontrolled, making them a less
enticing target/more obvious kill, and 3) in the case of
explosion-as-a-result-of-non-combat-situations you get the crew out of harms
way when they might have no reason to suspect their lives are in danger. 

Of course, this could devolve into a thread about how these 'lifeboats' become
glorified targets with squishy bits inside, but I might counter THAT by
pointing out that by general agreement MOST combatants avoid shooting ejected
pilots 'in the chute'.

my .02cr

- -jeff

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:42:28 -0600 (CST)
From: ccguy@showme.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

This has always puzzled me too - and one could add cultural and political
conservatism (in the sense of not trying to imagine any new cultural or
political systems). I thought this was meant to be an open-ended game
of many possibilities.

On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, SemoFetus wrote:

> Where did the technological conservatism in the Traveller universe start, and
> why is it that some forms of handwaving are acceptable and unchallenged, while
> anything new is scrutinized under a magnifying glass and often discarded?
> 

> Granted, some advances have the danger of changing the flavor of Traveller's
> space-opera feel.  Cybernetics run the risk, if used improperly, of turning
> the game into Cyberpunk in space.  


Exploring cybernetics more fully could also lead to a lot more than
cyberpunk - there are a lot of unexplored avenues. It could also lead to 
significantly different cultural, social, economic, and political systems. 
Our group is playing a Blue Planet campaign now where implanted computers
are being used in a decidedly non-cyberpunkish manner. It gives the 
GM some new ways of giving characters information, is affecting the tone
of the role playing in positive ways, and opens up some interesting 
avenues for plot devices. 

The trinary logic computers mentioned in some earlier posts hold 
similar interesting opportunities. They sound like fuzzy logic taken
to an extreme.

Guy Wilson
ccguy@showme.missouri.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:46:26 -0600 (CST)
From: ccguy@showme.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Biologic Components : Care and Feeding

On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> 
> The Biological Processor is not a true life form, but, like other living
> tissue, it must be sustained with oxygen and food.  All that you need is
> included in your bio-care kit, and replacement supplies can be found at any
> Bio-Pro Corp representative located throughout the subsector.
> 

I wonder if several bio-processors could be networked together and mirror
each other, in case one died or sustained damage - kind of like a 
RAID.

Guy Wilson
ccguy@showme.missouri.edu

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 16:53:24 -0600 (CST)
From: Jim Heivilin <ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, SemoFetus wrote:
<snip>
>The Traveller universe is several millenia away, and yet with the
>exception of interstellar travel, reactionless drives, cryoberths,
>lasers and gauss guns, there is precious little "high tech" around.
>
I'm opening myself up for untold criticism but I seem to remember a
number of years ago reading something that said the original Traveller
made four assumptions about technology; 1) jump drives and ftl travel,
2) efficient fusion power plants, 3) anti-gravity technology and I
don't seem to remember the last.  Everything else was based on
'logical' extensions of existing technology.

Jim
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Jim Heivilin, ccbanzai@showme.missouri.edu, 
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccbanzai
  http://www.missouri.edu/~ccjoe/traveller/game (game site)
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
  Yaphet Blue, Chief Engineer, A.S.S. Bounty, 
  master saxophonist, former scout, sometime financier
  yblue@bounty.arlea.irurk.net
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------
 "We go where the wind takes us, of course we operate mostly in 
  vacuum!"  Dr. Percival Caernarvon, Ship's Doctor, A.S.S. Bounty
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 23:42:50 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2143

On Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:49:14 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 13:19:55 -0500 (EST)
>From: Dedly@aol.com
>Subject: Re: Short Nap (was Virus)
>
>>>>Survival Margin makes the claim that they can somehow -- by radio,
>nonetheless -- change previously non-sentient, non-"living", non-*Cymbeline*
>chips into "living", "sentient", "Cymbeline" chips. This is like saying that
>I can turn *you* into a hamster by transmitting the DNA code of a Hamster to
>you via email! <<<
> 
>Uh, your analogy is flawed. Sentient chips and non-sentient chips still share
>the same medium (silicon) and both will transmit information (1's & 0's) the
>same way. It seems feasible to me. DNA and email don't share the same medium.
>It's apples and oranges. If you wanted to turn me into a hamster via hamster
>DNA then you would have to use a proper means of transmitting that sort of
>information. Think a successful version of "The Island of Dr Moreau" or maybe
>"Blood Music" by Greg Bear.

I completely disagree with your notion about how the Cymbeline chips and
non-sentient Imperial chips could ever hope to have anything to do with each
other ... but anyone who likes "Blood Music" can't be all bad (now where's *my*
copy, arrgh, Ill have to dig deep in the bowels of the basement to find it so I
can re-read it, its been a long time!). 

>But it's all over now anyway,

Dead right!

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 23:52:51 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2143

On Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:49:14 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:25:29 -0500 (EST)
>From: GypsyComet@aol.com
>Subject: FF&S-TNE and presentation (was Re: Virus--This...)
>
>Beware. Mr. McGregor just pushed one of my essay-writing buttons...
>
>
>>Date: Wed, 03 Dec 1997 13:21:10 GMT
>
>>From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
>
>>Subject: Re: Virus -- This wasn't the way it was!

>>Nothing wrong with TNE *game system* ... well, except for FF&S #1 ... it was
>>simply the background that sucked majorly. In fact, the TNE *game system*
>> is far better than the suck(ish) T4 game system!

> I quite agree with you about TNE vs T4. What little system my group uses
>is TNE...
>
> I have to disagree with your opinion of FF&S-TNE however. While some
>typos crept in, and some specific numbers deeply offended certain
>gearheads, this book was a wonder of organization. The depth and detail
>available in this book is ONLY available because of that organization.
>FF&S-TNE is both useful AND useable.

I don't *necessarily* think TNE is poorly laid out. Well, the weapon design
system is, IMHO, unuseable *COMPARED TO* BTRC's 3G3 (sure, you *could* use the
FF&S system, but why would anyone bother when Greg has done such a beautiful job
with 3G3 ... professional Spreadsheet and all). I just think that the whole
system was unneccessarily complex ... compare the vehicle design system with
that of BTRC's excellent "Vehicle Design System", the latter is much quicker and
easier to use. No complex calculations involved, and explanations for tech and
why some of the assumptions are probably bullshit -- but *work* nonethless. And
as soon as a Spreadsheet is available, well, it will make all versions of FF&S
(as well as GURPS Vehicles #1 and #2) look like a sick joke!

> If you want examples of misorganized design systems, we can look first
>at FF&S-T4 and continue through most of the rest of the T4 stuff. GDW
>obviously learned (and regretably forgot part of) the lesson of layout
>and organization; IG hasn't.  GDW also forgot more about proper typeface
>usage than IG knows now (compare MT with TNE and T4).

Agreed totally.

> In my honest opinion, formed over 20 years of gaming, IG could AT THIS
>MOMENT benefit more from a good layout artist than from any other permanent
>addition to their staff. Organization and readability are vital to any
>role-playing publication.
>  Oh. You want examples?

No, not really. You might not remember, but one of the mini-flame wars about IG
started because *I* gave much the same summation of IGs lack of ability compared
to new startup companies who were capable of putting out superior layed out
products right from word one. You don't need to preach to the converted!

Phil

- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 00:15:15 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Virus -- That wasn't the way it was!

On Wed, 3 Dec 1997 23:57:54 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Wed, 3 Dec 1997 17:42:10 -0500 (EST)
>From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale0@pop.uky.edu>
>Subject: Re: Virus -- This wasn't the way it was!
>
>Phillip McGregor writes:
>
>On Tue, 2 Dec 1997 19:24:43 -0500, you wrote:
>
>>>Date: Tue, 2 Dec 1997 17:07:33 -0700 (MST)
>>>From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
>>>Subject: Re: What is virus ?
>
><snip>
>
>>All this is true.
>
>   Indeed, one of the best short descriptions of Virus I've ever read.
>
>   As for the balance of your comments here, your view seems to be tainted
>by your understanding of the way late 20th century computer architecture
>works.  In fact, even today computer viruses can be spread through data
>files, something that even 10 years ago was thought impossible.  Since the
>transponders were tied into the communication array, it would be child's
>play for Virus to be accepted as a data file (even though it is an
>executable), and the work its way into the heart of the ship's main computer.

Yes. I understand, and do not dispute this. This is not the basis of my argument
against Virus.

>>Even if you allow that the
>>Cymbeline Transponder chips could reprogram *themselves*, Survival Margin makes
>>the claim that they can somehow -- by radio, nonetheless -- change previously
>>non-sentient, non-"living", non-*Cymbeline* chips into "living", "sentient",
>>"Cymbeline" chips. This is like saying that I can turn *you* into a hamster by
>>transmitting the DNA code of a Hamster to you via email! Quite ridiculous.
>
>   Again, you fail to understand the basic idea.  Because it is sent as data
>(or at least mascarades as such), it can be transmitted by radio, microwave
>antenna, over land lines--anything capable of transmitting data.  While
>Virus starts off in the silicon state, tied to a physical object, it
>reproduces by sending false data packets which are in reality "virtual DNA"
>that are the codes for creating an offspring.  Virus can be made of silicon
>(as are the "chips"), gallium arsenide, liquid, or anything else capable of
>holding its "virtual DNA" intact.

The problem is, you seem to be able to believe that you can convert non-living,
evolutionarily dissimilar (and, almost certainly, vastly different -- though I
hesitate to use the word "evolution" in conjunction with dead Imperial Chips),
into *living* chips simply by some sort of data packet! This is plainly
farcical.

I have no trouble with the Cymbeline chips being so co-opted -- they, after all,
are what the attack is aimed at. I do not believe the bs explanation that the
transponder system (especially on military or Scout service ships) would be tied
into all the other computerised systems or would be broadcasting *all* the time.
This is so obviously silly and unnecessary that it just doesn't bear even
considering seriously.

What I do have trouble with is being told that Virus can somehow turn completely
unrelated (evolutionarily speaking) organisms (Imperial chips) into living
copies of itself. Cymbeline chips are *already* living, Imperial Chips aren't
(otherwise, why use Cymbeline chips?). Cymbeline chips therefore have the
facility to be subverted, Imperial chips do not.

Sure, assuming (the completely ridiculous) idea that all ships transponders work
in the way that they are claimed to do, then it is possible that the
transponders could infect the main computers. The perfect defence, however,
would remain as I have stated -- disconnect the transponder and power down the
main computers, then reboot with clean, read only, media. A major hiccough, but
not civilisation destroying.

And to claim that all the alien races outside the Imperium would adopt the
Imperial Transponder system as a matter of course is also plainly ridiculous.
The Imperium is a trading entity -- anything that restricts trade with it is a
*bad thing*. And, sure, I can just see all those independent empires kowtowing
to the Imperium and using its transponders -- sorry, simply won't happen.

Anyway, any system that doesn't allow for the fact that machinery -- and even
computers -- malfunction sometime is garbage. This means that there will be
protocols for handling non-transponder equipped ships that do not remotely
involve "shoot on sight" orders, even in a war zone. And the likelihood of the
hundreds of thousands of imperial ships being re-equipped with Cymbeline tainted
transponders all the in the very short period we are led to believe is also
quite ridiculous.

Its not just that the idea of Virus is silly, its all the other *little things*
that add up against it.

>>The perfect defence against Virus, in any world where the writers had some idea
>>of how computers (and evolution, for that matter) worked would have been simply
>>to cut the transponder circuit out of the link and then power down the 
>>computers to kill off any software "infection" and reboot them from "clean" 
>>(probably read-only) media.
>
>   OK, first you have to know that Virus is coming in through transponder
>circuits.  Most of those killed in the initial attacks weren't given that
>briefing.  Second, assuming that you were lucky enough to know that all
>transponder circuits needed to be cut, you now must check every single file
>(data or otherwise) being transmitted into your computer to make sure it
>doesn't carry "virtual DNA"--remember, Virus can pretend to be almost
>anything (down to a minimum compression size), including anti-Virus
>software!  You must do this process continuously, otherwise Virus could slip
>through.

There is evidence through the TNS that people did know what was happening.
Anyway, there would be enough people who *would* power down the computer in such
circumstances -- there must be a protocol along those lines if you have AI or
semi-AI computers.

>   Also, if the "virtual DNA" instructions are executed, Virus becomes
>hardwired into the circuits (yes I know that would work with liquid data
>storage, but the assumption is those are extremely rare).  Wiping a
>computer's memory and disks clean of software will do no good at that point,
>you will have to physically replace the effected computer components.

This is, unfortunately, unbelievable. It is worse, it is ridiculous. Like I
said, it is like assuming that I could turn you into a Spruce Tree (or a martian
micro-organism) by somehow sending an email to you.

>   Remember, Virus was a ***surprise attack***.  You may have to figure out
>what Virus really is and how it is being transmitted all while at the same
>time your computer and every computer around you is trying its best to wreak
>as much havoc as possible before self-destructing--not to mention all the
>starships, vehicles, planetary computer nets, orbital defense systems, and
>anything else with good computer power that is trying to do the same thing.

And the problem with that is it assumes, as does Survival Margin, that the whole
Imperium is engaged in a mutual and knowing suicide pact -- that they have no
anti-viral protection measures at all (Shuddusham Accords, IIRC, mentioned in
Survival Margin anyway), which is complete garbage as well. Any protection would
make the widespread success of even just a data-infection virus (which I do find
believable) unlikely.

>>And I don't think anyone objects to the Berserkers, as *they* can't infect 
>>other computers by simple radio transmissions!
>
>   Again, we're not talking about playing "Love Me Tender" on a 50,000 watt
>radio station, we're talking about the transmission of large amounts of
>*data*, which went on in the Imperium without anyone giving it a second thought.

Which is also ridiculous. They did. Even Survival Margin says they did. They
just chose to sign a mutual suicide pact. Which is ridiculous, as it assumes
that human nature has changed in fundamental ways that it obviously hasn't.

>>>Many MANY people have a huge problem with Virus, to the extent of
>>>proclaiming that this was what caused GDW to go under, even.
>>
>>Me, for one. I simply stopped buying GDW products pretty much in disgust after
>>it was introduced.
>
>   Virus no more caused the downfall of GDW than the initial underpowering
>of energy weapons in TNE.  What caused the downfall of GDW is a complex
>series of events that are better left for another discussion.

No one is claiming that it did. Note that all the original post did was that
"many people *proclaimed* that Virus was the fault" and all I did was note that
it turned me off completely.

>>And it couldn't work the way it is said to have for reasons that have been done
>>to death -- not any more than I can turn you into a Hamster (which is actually 
>>a bad example ... you and a Hamster have a lot more in common, evolutionarily
>>speaking, than a dead piece of silicon in a standard imperial chip and the
>>"living" silicon [or whatever] of a Cymbeline "chip")
>
>   Once again, Virus is no more tied to a silicon chip than a vector is tied
>to a host.  You have to think in terms of both computer science and biology
>in order to "get it".

Unfortunately, if you think in both terms as you suggest, it becomes even more
obviously garbage. I think its safe to say that these opposed positions are only
going to lead to flame wars (and have in the past) and we'll simply have to
agree that each side thinks the other's position is ridiculous.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 19:34:11 -0500
From: Ethan Henry <egh@klg.com>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com> wrote:
> how come artificial intelligence,
> teleportation, genetic engineering, cybernetics and nanotech all seem to be
> completely taboo?  This is especially strange considering that some of these
> are actually becoming pretty advanced in our day, a mere TL8 society or so...

Teleportation - physically impossible. There's too much information
to transmit, to say nothing of the energy needed. Well, that is, unless
you're Zhodani. :) Teleportation exists, but only as a small-scale
psionic effect. With limitations.

Genetic Engineering - ever read Rats & Cats? Maybe not. But the Solomani
have made extensive use of GenEng, uplifting other species, modifying
humaniti, doing all sorts of stuff.

Cybernetics - hm, it doesn't get mentioned much, but it does get
mentioned a bit... it's mostly a background thing - most Imperial 
worlds eitehr aren't interested or don't have the technology.

Nanotech - nanotech as a concept is barely 10 years old. Traveller
pre-dates nanotech bye a whole decade. :) Nanotech is a "singularity"
as its creators put it - beyond the point where nanotech becomes 
real, everything changes so much that you can't even imagine what
it's like. Which makes for a bad game supplement...

New from GDW!

Supplement 15: Nanotech

Things are so wacked, you can't even imagine what it's like. 
Really. You can't.

(That's actually the entire supplement, in the press release)

Anybody care to resurrect the Vilani versus Solomani attitudes-
towards-technology-and-why-everything-in-Traveller-is-really-
boring debate?

Seriously though, while Trav is pretty consertative in its
approach to technology, that's partly by design. Anything
more wacky becomes difficult for players to get a good grasp on.
Hell, I find it hard enough to explain the Traveller backdrop to
people as it is... "You see, I have to explain about 3000 years of
future history for this to make sense, so hold on a second..."

Ethan
- --
Ethan Henry                      ethan@magma.ca

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 17:02:45 -0800
From: douglas <douglas@teleport.com>
Subject: Re: Starport Procedures and Fees, and other questions.

Peter,

I like the way you think!  I'll probably incorporate most of what you have
written...  :)

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> 1). Arrive insystem.  Immediately send an ID and "Standard Package" which
> includes your ship's ownership information, cargo manifest, passenger list,
> crew list, letters of credit (see below), and special instructions.  Most
> of these are prepared by the starport you departed from and are verified by
> their "seal" (electronic probably, but sometimes these would neeed to be
> presented in paper form).  There is also a health and safety certification
> which establishes that there are no communicable diseases onboard and that
> the ship itself is safe to manuver close to populated orbital facilities.

I like to add a bit of detail to that.  One of the benefits of Imperial
membership is this cute series of satellites (5) positioned around the planet at
the 10 diameter point (or where ever you demarcate the Imperial/Planetary
border).  On arrival insystem, a merchant can broadcast a special 'ping' and
receive answers back from these satellites.   One satellite will return system
data (i.e. library data) and at least two of the others will send timing and
position sequences.  By measuring the return time on the three signals, the Nav
program can calculate the position of the starship in relationship to the
mainworld (and the rest of the system).   This also tends to announce your
arrival insystem - a Class A or B Starport (or a world with Tech A+ in any case)
will generally detect the J-energy involved with emergence within 200
diameters.  If the campaign allow for pirates (I'm not starting that thread
again!  I said _IF_) being silent until the ship's sensors can position the ship
without external data input may be the appropriate option.  However, if your
ship is detected on arrival, and you do not announce yourself in a reasonable
period of time, you can expect the Starport/Planet/Detecting Agency to initiate
some form of communication.


> A course to the starport will be given at this time.  A berth or orbit will
> be reserved per your preference.  They will need to know how long you are
> staying.
>
> 2).  Customs inspection.  If the starport has reason to believe there is
> any smuggling or other illegal activity going on, or if they are the type
> to make random inspections, they will send a "revenue cutter" on an
> intercept course to match vectors and board.  This is fairly routine and
> can involve any range of activity from a friendly drink in the crew lounge,
> to a full blown financial audit or a safety inspection.  Cargo inspections
> are generally done in port, since cargo bays are usually as tightly packed
> as possible.

I also include Imperial 'Health and Comfort' inspections.  A 'H&C' inspection
can literally cover any spectrum that the Imperial Inspector has the facilities
to support.  These are initiated in space, but may continue to orbit.  A ship
which fails such an inspection will not be premitted to land anywhere but at a
Imperial facility.

> >Once docked, there must be more red tape, inspections, paperwork
> >(electronic, I'd assume), and fees.  Any info on this as well?
>
> 3).  Docking & Unloading.  A "welcoming Party" and Cargo inspections are
> the norm.  Generally there is a starport 'Inspector' positioned to patrol
> 3-12 docking bays looking for illegal activity or cargo.  S/he is generally
> equipped with good handheld instrumentation for detecting drugs,
> explosives, radioactives, etc. and a radio.  This person will meet the
> ship, test the internal atmosphere again for germs etc (a revenue cutter
> will do this too) and generally look around.  This person will periodically
> show up when cargo is being unloaded, and might (with cause) ask for a
> certain cargo container to be opened.

This is an important person to get along with.  My Campaign has a 2 TL limit on
imports (you can only import technology 2 levels higher) unless you have a
waiver from the system Count, or his representative.  (It's one of the ways I
explain the TL disparity between planets - and it makes sense too.  A planet
cannot support advanced technology without the TL base, and constantly
purchasing high tech is a drain on the economy.)  If this person chooses to make
an ass of themselves, you can spend most of your week in port just justifying
your cargo - and not even start finding exports.

> 4).  Arranging payment.  The ship will get a bill for berthing and
> inspection services, as well as any fines or fees for special cargos, use
> of loading/unloading equipment or crew (Union!), etc.  This will generally
> be charged against the ship's Account.  This is a "cash" account at the
> local branch of the bank the characters use for their financial services.
> They carry a letter of credit from the previous location which is downright
> difficult to forge, and if it is forged the bank *will* catch up with the
> characters eventually.
>
> Some ships carry a lot of cash.  This is suspicious and may generate
> unwanted inspections.  All ships carry *some* cash and generally draw a
> little "pocket change" against their credit.

I disagree here.  All merchant ships carry a *lot* of cash (in the form of
CrImps, Corporate Bearer Bonds, Bank Letters of Credit, etc...).  Electronic
credit is fine for a ship that just picks up cargo, but if you are speculating
you are paying cash on the barrel.  The way I run it (and this is subject to
interpretation, I know) - if you are just picking up a cargo and passengers you
can get away with advertising at the starport.  But if you are speculating, you
may set up a meet through a broker, but unless you are buying a pig in a poke
(i.e. blind) you have to get out on the world and to the seller.  Some of the
larger brokerage firms will deal with credit - but a small broker (i.e. Starport
D-) will want and need liquid funds in order to facilitate the purchase.  And,
as a starship owner, are you going to accept a credit transfer that may or may
not be accepted once it's validated at a major starport?  Remember, Class D and
E starports do not have the facilities of a Class A or B.

> Banks are huge, networked bodys which keep duplicate records at every
> branch, and at affiliated banks.  If a ship payment is due on 030-1107 and
> your ship is in port on that date, they will debit your account for the
> payment according to prior arrangements.  The ship's schedule is a matter
> of financial record also, and if your schedule says you were in jump on the
> date payment was due, the bank will debit your account on the next possible
> date.  In all cases, your bank account basically "follows you around"
> wherever you go.  Many schemes have been attempted to cheat the bank out of
> a payment or two, but most are detected and thwarted.
>
> 5).  Departure.  Cargo loading onboard is generally not inspected.  The
> ship is certified safe (medically and mechanically), a letter of credit is
> issued for the remaining bank balance, a certified cargo manifest and
> passenger list is prepared by the starport for the ship (The crew list is
> the same - or is updated if necessary), and off they go!

I have a lot of hoops that the merchant has to jump through.  TL waivers for the
point of destination (if required); End Use Certificates for military equipment;
etc..

> >On an unrelated topic:  is there any good reason why the Imperium has
> >physical currency?  Why would electronic funds transfers NOT be
> >universal?  Is this simply an artifact of the age of the Traveller game?
>
> Hard currency is good for business.  Seriously, there is, in every culture,
> an 'underground economy' in illegal, unlawful, or simply unacceptable goods
> and the Imperium has an interest in keeping this trade alive.  If its not
> done with Imperial currency it will be done with some other form of trade.
>

Imperial currancy is great for high tech worlds, worlds with Class A or B
starports, or worlds with a high Imperial presence (Sector/SubSector Capitals).
Get out onto the Starport E, TL-3 worlds tho', and your credit card isn't going
to do a lot of good.  Start dealing on the fringes of society, where it is
important that a transaction NOT be traced, and cash becomes important.  One of
the good things about cash is that you cannot void the transaction - once you
have handed it over you have made a committment that can be depended on.  Try
and guarantee a mercenary contract with a credit card, for instance, and you may
find yourself in a bit of trouble.

- --
_________________________________________
E-Mail: douglas@teleport.com
http://www.teleport.com/~douglas/traveller.html

Those who live by the sword, get shot by those who don't.
__________________________________________

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2146
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, December 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2147



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: What is virus ?
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2135
IG: Naval Arch. Manual and Imp. Squarons.
Re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)
Re: Red Tape
Roving Gearheads -- ARRGH!
Re:  Re: Short Nap (was Virus)
Hard currency
Re: Subject: Re: What is virus ?
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Technological Conservatism
two programs (a mapper & a language aid)
Re: Spofustuff
Plastic Surgery (was Re: Technological Conservatism)
Re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)
Re: Roving Gearheads -- ARRGH!
Re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)
Re: Technological conservatism.
Imperial Squadrons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:57:42 EST
From: SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
Subject: Re: What is virus ?

>Speaking of future computer technology, did anyone see the article in New
>Scientist (15/11/97) on the work to 'evolve' rather than design chips? Any
>thoughts on how it will effect technology?

In a similar vein, there was this guy who wrote computer code to do
"something" and he decided he wanted to make it smaller.  What the code
actually did is unimportant.  
So this guy wrote crazy software and turned the code into "artificial life"
with certain rules.  After a certain amount of time the code would "die" they
could mate and produce offspring, and the offspring would have a chance of
random mutation.  The mutation would make the code smaller.  The code would
"die" quickly if it didn't do what the original code did.

What eventually happened was, after many iterations, the code became ultra
teeny, but still did what it was programmed to do.  He sponsored a contest on
the internet and alot of people tried to write a program that did the same
thing, only smaller, and nobody came close.

This is in the book _Out of Control_.  I forget the author's name off the top
of my head, but it is a fantastic book.  I can get the name of the author if
anyone would like.  The book deals with artificial life and robotics and
various things like that.  Very good read.

I think evolving chips is fantastic, and I think it could make the computer
industry grow even faster then it is now (what, my computer will be obselete
even quicker? :).

As I've stated in another message, I think that Traveller tech is highly
conservative in alot of respects.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:50:35 +1000 (GMT+1000)
From: "Valerian J. Vortex" <s321874@student.uq.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2135

On Mon, 1 Dec 1997, Traveller-digest wrote:

> This sounds _great_ for story purposes but given the lower population
> and Tech Levels how can the Sword Worlds be a serious threat to the
> sector (much less to the Imperium) ?
> 
> The fact that that they "have a strong cultural identity.  They have a
> strong sense of manifest destiny." may help to explain why they are
> trying this but does not explain why they would have a chance of
> success.  Israel in the 50's was outnumbered but it had IMHO a higher
> military tech level than its neighbors, or at least it had equipment of
> (possibly fractionally) higher tech level that it had received from the
> USA.  Do you have the Zhodhani funneling arms into the Sword Worlds ?
> Given that the counselate is TL 14 and has TL 13 reserve forces (source
> 5thFW) it seems unlikely that it could/would be giving arms transfers of
> better than TL 12-13.  This is a step up from the Sword Worlds native
> military tech level of 10 - 12, but is it enough improvement to threaten
> the area ?

<snip>

> It looks as if the Sword Worlds have 14 billion (1x10^9) people at TL
> 12, 200 million at TL 11, and 20.6 billion at TL 10.  All their
> important planets have military bases.

IIRC, this puts them in a better position than the Solomani were when they
first encountered the Vilani.

"Don't annoy a little man - he might kill you."  Anon.

Ken Barns,
ex-Medical Student and Connoisseur of Life.

=============================================================

       "Life's tough...  SO WHAT??" - Angry Anderson
   
=============================================================

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 21:05:16 EST
From: Ghan II <GhanII@aol.com>
Subject: IG: Naval Arch. Manual and Imp. Squarons.

     Just a note,
     Naval Architect's Manual and Imperial Squadrons were in my mail today. It
looks like IG decided to save money on postage by shipping them together.
      Bye,  Doug Snyder

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 22:23:18 EST
From: Dralasite <Dralasite@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)

  Greetings All.  I think the Bridge Ejection Plug sounds.  Has anyone seen
the movie, "Event Horizon"?  It had a similar concept, just on a larger scale.
The ship was long with a large front and rear sections.  These sections were
connected by a long skinny section to seperate the bridge from the main
drive components.  Explosive charges were placed along the long skinny
section in the event of reason to seperate the front section from the rest.
Probably since they were using a new experimental jump or space folding 
drive.  Schoon, if you design something send it my way.  I'd love to see it
and use it in my campaign.
                                        Thanks,
                                      Ken(Dralasite@aol.com)   

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 20:24:49 -0800
From: shudson@lightspeed.bc.ca (Steven Hudson)
Subject: Re: Red Tape

>Once docked, there must be more red tape, inspections, paperwork
>(electronic, I'd assume), and fees.  Any info on this as well?

  Does anyone have the old magazine (probably White Dwarf,
possibly Space Gamer) which spoofed the paperwork a ship
in Traveller needed to land and unload? It may have been
an April issue, but it would still be a joy to read again.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 04:24:36 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Roving Gearheads -- ARRGH!

On Thu, 4 Dec 1997 14:11:52 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 10:42:08 EST
>From: SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
>Subject: Re: FF&S-TNE and presentation (was Re: Virus--This...)
>
>However, Mr.McGregor seems to have a burning hatred for FF&S for other
>reasons.  He has been bitter about it for at least the six or seven months
>I've been around.  Dunno.  Maybe his kids were carried off by roving gearheads
>to be part of their dark ceremonies with mechanical pencils and scientific
>calculators :)

So *THAT'S* why the kids have been missing! (And I thought it was because I
didn't have any -- obviously the evil gearheads have used their mind-clouding
abilities to remove my memories of them!)

Actually, I have nothing against Scientific Calculators (I actually own a
moderately good one, a Sharp EL-5120 programmable -- I just objected to the
stupidly overly (and needlessly) complex system of FF&S which, when used to
attempt to reverse engineer real world designs, simply didn't come close most of
the time. GURPS Vehicles had a similar problem, but was so much simpler to use
that it could be worked around -- GV2 has removed that problem, but made the
system too complex to be usable.

The system I use now? Well, I use BTRC's VDS (Vehicle Design System), which is a
little beauty ... sure, you need a scientific calculator to use it, but it is
really not all that much more complex than "High Guard" when you boil it down.
And, best of all, the design sequence flows smoothly and logically -- *and* you
*can* reverse engineer vehicles using the system and get accurate (or close to)
real world results!

Actually, I didn't say anything else that you commented on -- so blame the
originator of those other comments, not *me*!

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:12:14 EST
From: StevenA197 <StevenA197@aol.com>
Subject: Re:  Re: Short Nap (was Virus)

In a message dated 12/3/97 8:51:49 PM, Dedly@AOL.COM wrote:

>If you wanted to turn me into a hamster via hamster
>DNA then you would have to use a proper means of transmitting that sort of
>information.



Squeek!  Squeek!

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 20:32:03 -0800
From: "Electric Stitch Custom Digitizing" <electric-stitch@w-link.net>
Subject: Hard currency

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>>On an unrelated topic:  is there any good reason why the Imperium has
>>physical currency?  Why would electronic funds transfers NOT be
>>universal?  Is this simply an artifact of the age of the Traveller =
game?

>Hard currency is good for business.  Seriously, there is, in every =
culture,
>an 'underground economy' in illegal, unlawful, or simply unacceptable =
goods
>and the Imperium has an interest in keeping this trade alive.  If its =
not
>done with Imperial currency it will be done with some other form of =
trade.

>I've blabbed enough now, I'll let others answer your last question.

I believe that Hard currency is necessary in a traveller universe for =
the simple reason of communication. In todays world, money can be =
transferred electronically between accounts, credit cards and such. A =
"cash card" is all one really needs these days to purchase something. =
But, in the traveller universe it would be impossible to maintain =
interstellar bank accounts. For example, If I was on Agidda/Sol-Rim and =
I wanted to access my account on Terra/Sol-Rim, I would have to wait 2 =
weeks to get my money. 1 week to jump to Terra to verify funds and =
transfer them to Agidda.=20
What may work (and what I use in my current game) is similar to a cash =
card. Instead of the card accessing an account, the data is physically =
stored on the card. These cash cards could be used at virtually any A or =
B class starports, high tech worlds, and portable money transfer =
machines. Money could be transferred electronically in-system, between =
ships or to a starport for example.=20
Hard cash would still be necessary for areas that don't except or have =
the ability to accept cash cards.=20
One disadvantage to this "cash card" system is that it would lead to =
tampering. Some one may be able to "hack" into the card and increase the =
amount of money it contains.=20
A study was done on these kinds of cards recently and it was decided =
that it was easier to counterfeit paper money than to hack into a card.=20


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<DIV>&gt;&gt;On an unrelated topic:&nbsp; is there any good reason why =
the=20
Imperium has<BR>&gt;&gt;physical currency?&nbsp; Why would electronic =
funds=20
transfers NOT be<BR>&gt;&gt;universal?&nbsp; Is this simply an artifact =
of the=20
age of the Traveller game?<BR><BR>&gt;Hard currency is good for =
business.&nbsp;=20
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in=20
illegal, unlawful, or simply unacceptable goods<BR>&gt;and the Imperium =
has an=20
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Imperial=20
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blabbed=20
enough now, I'll let others answer your last question.&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>I believe that Hard currency is necessary in a traveller universe =
for the=20
simple reason of communication. In todays world, money can be <FONT=20
color=3D#000000 size=3D2>transferred </FONT>electronically between =
accounts, credit=20
cards and such. A &quot;cash card&quot; is all one really needs these =
days to=20
purchase something. But, in the traveller universe it would be =
impossible to=20
maintain interstellar bank accounts. For example, If I was on =
Agidda/Sol-Rim and=20
I wanted to access my account on Terra/Sol-Rim, I would have to wait 2 =
weeks to=20
get my money. 1 week to jump to Terra to verify funds and transfer them =
to=20
Agidda. </DIV>
<DIV>What may work (and what I use in my current game) is similar to a =
cash=20
card. Instead of the card accessing an account, the data is physically =
stored on=20
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starports, high tech worlds, and portable money transfer machines. Money =
could=20
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for=20
example. &nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>Hard cash would still be necessary for areas that don't except or =
have the=20
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<DIV>One disadvantage to this &quot;cash card&quot; system is that it =
would lead=20
to tampering. Some one may be able to &quot;hack&quot; into the card and =

increase the amount of money it contains. &nbsp;</DIV>
<DIV>A study was done on these kinds of cards recently and it was =
decided that=20
it was easier to counterfeit paper money than to hack into a card.=20
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------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 20:45:22 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Subject: Re: What is virus ?

At 08:11 AM 12/4/97 PST, you wrote:
>Thanks for the discussion on Virus.  I've wondered about it for some 
>time, and the references to Vampire Fleets (or Vampire Ships).  All the 
>discussion has been very helpful.
>
>Based on the discussion, though, could someone give a concise 
>explanation of how the Regency survived (Quarantine, etc.)  From the 
>discussion, it sounds as though that would not really be possible, if 
>you had to know the virus was coming....  Was it defense in depth?

Archduke Norris (the former Duke of Regina) ordered a quarntine running
across the middle of Deneb.  Residents on the wrong side of the line had a
very short period to pick up and move.  *Nothing* that could harbor Virus
was allowed in with the refugess.  Ships were stopped and had their
computers checked with a fine tooth comb while the Navy stood by at point
blank range.

Once the grace period ended, nothing moved across the border.  Any attempt
to enter Regency space was considered hostile.  One Vampire Fleet did
penetrate, with a single battleship making it to Trin where it massacred
much of the planet's population before suiciding onto the planet's surface.

At the time of the Regency Sourcebook, preperations were underway to allow
settlers across the buffer zone to begin reclaiming the previously lost
worlds.  
- --
+--------------------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry               dberry@hooked.net |
|          http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/          |
+--------------------------------------------------+
| "Battles are won by slaughter and maneuver.  The |
|  greater the general, the more he contributes in |
|  maneuver, the less he demands in slaughter."    |
|                     -Sir Winston L. S. Churchill |
+--------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 04 Dec 1997 21:56:10 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

At 07:34 pm 12/4/97 -0500, you wrote:
>SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com> wrote:
>> how come artificial intelligence,
>> teleportation, genetic engineering, cybernetics and nanotech
all seem to be
>> completely taboo?  This is especially strange considering that
some of these
>> are actually becoming pretty advanced in our day, a mere TL8
society or so...

	Everybody's going to give you their gearhead reason, or canon
reason, or whatever. Here's my take:

	The reason Traveller isn't more like {Star Wars, Star Trek,
Battlestar Galactica, Blood Music, Neuromancer, ...}, and doesn't
include technology like {Teleportation, Nanotek, Shields,
Phasers, Warp Drive, Neural Jacks, ...} is because Traveller
isn't {Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Blood Music,
Neuromancer, ...}.

	Marc Miller, et. al., were looking for a specific feel; even the
very first Traveller had a very "hard-science" feel.  Go back &
reread the space combat rules in the original LBB if you don't
buy that ... Having set that feel, it's been propagated forward,
until the entire fabric of what Traveller is formed. Start
throwing in other things, and you'll tear the fabric. Maybe you
can make something else out of the shreds, but it won't be
Traveller ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 23:48:07 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Technological Conservatism

I've heard the argument that games with odder technology are simply
to confusing to play, but I simply don't buy it.  Blue Planet and Aeon 
have much more unusual technology than Traveller, and even Aeon looks a 
lot more like a reasonable vision of the future than Traveller does.

Sure, nanotechnology won't work in gaming, it's just *too* odd, but 
genetic engineering, biological and cybernetic implants, massively 
networked computers which exist in *every* device made are all ideas 
which have been used in SF literature for more than a decade, and which 
have been used in at least a few games.  Traveller could be updated.  
Digest Groups was doing this, they even had a cyborg book and a genetic 
engineering book planned, the TNE came along, followed by T4 and the 
technology of the Imperium has been left stagnating in 60s SF-land.

So, maybe we all can remedy this?


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 00:32:41 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Vassilakos <jimv@e2.empirenet.com>
Subject: two programs (a mapper & a language aid)

Two programs, just released, that you folks might be interested in.
These weren't written for Traveller, but with a little work they
might be applied to it.

The first is a mapping tool which I originally wrote for fantasy
RPGing, but I got to thinking that it might be useful for Traveller
as well, particularly for regional maps (a section of a planet)
where a particular adventure or set of adventures are located.

        PROGRAM NAME: "MAPPER" [v0.1] {December 1997}
        AUTHOR: Jim Vassilakos (jimv@empirenet.com)
        FUNCTION: World Mapper
        OPERATING SYSTEM: IBM (MS-DOS)
        SIZE: 318,730 bytes zipped
        COMMENTS: Create maps with hexagonal color-tiles so you
              can share your RPG campaign world with the rest of
              us on the Net. Requires VGA graphics or better. May
              attach campaign notes to the map via an easy-to-learn
              menuing system. Two unfinished sample worlds already
              included. Note, you must use "-d" option when unzipping:
              >>>>>>>>    pkunzip -d mapper01.zip    <<<<<<<<
        If you draw up any campaign maps using this program, please
        send me a copy so I can include them in the next version...

The second one is a language program originally written to help me
pick up some greek, but I suddenly got to thinking that maybe the
people on the vilani-list might want to revise the data files
to their own nefarious ends... include it as part of a tutorial
in the vilani language, although this might require actual code
modification... i don't know vilani at all, so i can't say...

        PROGRAM NAME: "LANG" [v1.0] {December 1997}
        AUTHOR: Jim Vassilakos (jimv@empirenet.com)
        FUNCTION: Language Learner (Greek Version)
        OPERATING SYSTEM: IBM (MS-DOS)
        SIZE: 66,368 bytes zipped
        COMMENTS: Learn greek at your own pace via this
           flashcard program. You enter the words you want
           to learn (up to 500), then quiz yourself with both
           recall and recognition tests. Includes an uncompiled
           font editor to facilitate with the creation of other
           language files. All data files are flat-text for
           easy manual editing.

Anyway, just spamming the list with this gunk on the off-chance that
it might prove useful to somebody... both programs currently available
from my homepage:

          http://www.cs.ucr.edu/~jimv

Just go to the programs section and snoop around... and if you have
trouble getting one or the other for whatever bizarre reason, let me
know and I'll send you a copy via email.

jimv@empirenet.com / JimVassila@aol.com

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Dec 1997 09:17:03 0100
From: goeran <signal-gk@geocities.com>
Subject: Re: Spofustuff

I would like a copy of this. I can also put it on my website if you
want me to.

Goeran

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 01:31:19 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Plastic Surgery (was Re: Technological Conservatism)

Well, since I mentioned trying to change the rather low tech feel most of 
Traveller has, I'll start the ball rolling:

Plastic Surgery in Traveller:

TL 6 & 7:

Early Plastic Surgery, reconstruction only.

TL 8-9:

Moderate Plastic Surgery, early body-sculpting, basic disguises.  The
surgery is undetectable, but limited, disguises are imperfect unless the
individuals are very similar.  [No height modifications, +/- up to 10 kg]. 

TL 10-11:

Advance Plastic Surgery, body sculpting, realistic disguises as anyone
belonging within the appropriate height and weight range who belongs to
the same human subspecies, and fully functional (sterile) sex-changes.  It
is now possible to change skin color, apparent gender, height and weight
(within limits).  Change blood type, but not genetic type.  Fur and
unusually colored eyes and hair (purple, metallic blue...) are also
possible.  [+/- up to 5 cm in height, +/-up to 20 kg]. 

TL 12-13:

Bioengineered Implants, fully fertile sex changes, full disguise (retinal
scan, genetic profile, finger prints...) Early vat grown implants are
developed here.  These early vat-grown implants can enhance normal
function (Light intensification, enhanced smell and hearing) or they can
add wholly new functions such as full spectrum vision, normal-looking skin
as tough as Jack armor, magnetic sense, gills....  However, each implant
can have only a single additional function.  Modified eyes with the
capacity for both IR and telescopic vision are not possible at these tech
levels.  All Vat-grown implants are fully living tissue which becomes a
normal part of the subjects body.  Purely cosmetic changes like tails,
claws, cat-like eyes and similar oddities are possible.  At this tech
level a human can be made to look like any of the humanoid Star Trek
aliens (old or new).  [+/- up to 15 cm in height, +/- any weight]. 

By TL 13 an average human can be disguised as a normal member of most
other minor human races, a Vilani could be disguised as a Darrian).  At
these TLs Genetically engineered viruses as used alongside surgery to
perform most modifications. 

TL 14-15:

Undetectable, genetic disguises, advanced vat-grown implants and genetic
modifications (IR eyes, etc... ).  Change height by up to +/- 30 cm.  At
these TLs genetically engineered viruses have replaced surgery in most
applications.  Advanced vat-grown implants can have multiple functions, so
modified eyes could be designed to see both in the infrared and have
telescopic capacity, as well as seeing ordinary visual light). 
 
By TL 15, any human can be undetectably disguised as a normal member of
any of the human minor races (a Darrian could even be disguised as a
Geonee). [+/- up to 40 cm in height]. 

TL 16:

Memory dupe to prepared targets (basic memories, no details). By this TL
impersonation is almost impossible to detect unless specific precautions
have been taken to avoid it.  To Dupe memories the target must be scanned
for 6 full hours. This process is non-invasive, and can be done while the
target is unconscious. 

TL 19: [Ancient artifacts only] 

Advance Bioengineering:  

At this TL humans can be undetectably disguised as most alien species,
including Aslan, Droyne, or K'kree.  Sentients can also be transformed
into ordinary looking, but fully sentient animals, or into life-forms
which combine the traits and appearance of several existing life-forms. 
At this TL all such changes are fully reversible, and take no more than a
month to perform. 

Comments?

I'm seeing various body styles, including fur and unique mixtures of 
traits (like blue eyed Asian-looking faces with pale blue skin) being 
high fashion among the elite of some worlds (especially Solomani worlds)


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:47:58 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>Remember, unlike the Enterprise, the Galactica, and Imperial Star
>Destroyers, a *real* spacegoing warship will not have the bridge
>anywhere *near* the outer hull. It'll be in towards the center of the
>ship so as to have the most protection possible. A "window" gives you
>no useful info when the enemy is thousands of km away.

Don't forget the B5 White Stars either... If some debris (or a weapon) hit
that exposed bridge someone might get killed. ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 12:28:01 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Roving Gearheads -- ARRGH!

>The system I use now? Well, I use BTRC's VDS (Vehicle Design System),
>which is a
>little beauty ... sure, you need a scientific calculator to use it, but it is
>really not all that much more complex than "High Guard" when you boil it down.
>And, best of all, the design sequence flows smoothly and logically -- *and* you
>*can* reverse engineer vehicles using the system and get accurate (or close to)
>real world results!
>
>Actually, I didn't say anything else that you commented on -- so blame the
>originator of those other comments, not *me*!

What! Is VDS out? In pdf only or is there a paper version as well?
I'll check BTRC webpage NOW.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:24:52 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)

On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, SD Mooney wrote:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>=20
> >Remember, unlike the Enterprise, the Galactica, and Imperial Star
> >Destroyers, a *real* spacegoing warship will not have the bridge
> >anywhere *near* the outer hull. It'll be in towards the center of the
> >ship so as to have the most protection possible. A "window" gives you
> >no useful info when the enemy is thousands of km away.
>=20
> Don't forget the B5 White Stars either... If some debris (or a weapon) hi=
t
> that exposed bridge someone might get killed. ;-)
>=20

I don=B4t recall the plans of the Azhanti High Lightning correctly, but I=
=20
think it had the bridge somewhere inside ... at the top was a lounge with=
=20
a bubble window in the direction of flight.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:22:11 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Ethan Henry wrote:

> Teleportation - physically impossible. There's too much information
> to transmit, to say nothing of the energy needed. Well, that is, unless
> you're Zhodani. :) Teleportation exists, but only as a small-scale
> psionic effect. With limitations.

[snippedisnap]

There=B4s another more elementary reason teleportaion would not work.
Remember Heisenberg=B4s Relation? No one can equally well determine the=20
place a particle is and the velocity it has got. This makes putting the=20
object together again impossible.

The only way to teleport would be using the tunnel effect for the whole=20
body - all of its atoms, electrons, etc. tunneling at the same time in=20
the same direction! If we take Psionics as =B4probabilistic physics=B4 this=
=20
could be a way of explanation.

Also do the Ancient Artifacts sometimes work as psionic devices.
All these things in fact are not impossible, they only are beyond tech leve=
l.

The Imperium as we know it only is 1100 years old - although it is set in=
=20
the 57. century of the Solomani Calendar. It is short before the end of=20
expansion. This is only one millennium, but is it enough to achieve=20
higher TL=B4s than 15? (There is a TL boom in nowadays Computer technology,=
=20
yes, but it will not last ever. There is a point to which it can go no=20
further, and I think it=B4s short before. At some times you need new=20
theories to go on.)

But there=B4s another way to explain the tech conservativity, which I think=
 is=20
logical. Remember the feudal system which holds the Imperium together.=20
What would happen if any world would let free to improve their own tech=20
uncontrolled? Every world in the end would develop their own standards,=20
based on their theories and how they=B4ve found them. They would end with=
=20
the problem that no neighbouring worlds could even fit their light bulbs=20
into one other=B4s socket! (Oh yes, I=B4m overstating a little bit ...)

To let space travel not be affected, there must be a way to control=20
Imperial standards - and you know what this means to the improvement rate
per time. This in fact would be the equivalent to the Vilani=20
conservationism that stagmated the whole first Imperium. In the third,=20
technological conservationism would lead to stagnating TLs.

I hope this will help explaining another bit of Traveller Universe, how I=
=20
see it. The discussion is open now ...

Greetings from L.A.

"This is Signal GK Hotline - You got a problem?
 If you are attacked by pirates, dial 1.
 If you collided with an asteroid, dial 2.
 If you=B4re out of fuel, dial 3, and we will direct you to the next gas gi=
ant.
 This is Signal GK Hotline ..."

=20

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 07:36:53 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: Imperial Squadrons

The first three chapters of the book are the rules for running a
Trillion Credit Squadron
campaign and ties it to Pocket Empires.  The combat tables (ship to
ship, ship to SDB, ship to surface, and ground units) remind me of the
board game Fifth Frontier War from
GDW.

There are short write ups of 4 Imperial ships
Coronation class battleship   90,000 tons
David R. Turner class fleet carrier   80,000 tons
Jerone Garcia class armored cruiser   50,000 tons
Bass Straight class destroyer escort   2,500 tons

The rest of the book is to help the ref run a group as active duty naval
personnel.

Definitely a book ref's need to look at to see if they want it.  Not
much for players.
The notible error is the Starship Card page.  There are no blank ones to
photocopy.

Alan

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2147
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Friday, December 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2148



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

The Iridium Triangle
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Biologic Components : Care and Feeding
List server address???
Re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)
Re: Plastic Surgery (was Re: Technological Conservatism)
Re: Virus and TNE
Re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Plastic Surgery (was Re: Technological Conservatism)
Delurking for some answers
Re: Technological conservatism.
AIMI ROCKS

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:42:24 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: The Iridium Triangle

A new thread wants to be started ...

The last articles about Zhodani and Sword Worlders in combination with=20
the Fifth Frontier War got me an idea for my campaign.
I shortly before saw an Amber Zone Adventure, in which the characters are=
=20
about to cover up Zhodani weapon deliverances to Imperial underground facti=
ons.

Now what came to my mind is the following -

What if the Sword Worlds sent the weapons into Imperial Space at the=20
Spinward Marches, and the Imperial underground sent other techs (as=20
private communicators) to the Zhodani through Esalin, which they=20
probably could use for their proles? The Zhodani themselves could=20
support the Sword Worlders with Psi from Querion.

With the selling of =B4harmless=B4 materials to the Consulate the Zhodani c=
an=20
deliver the money to the Underground which makes them buy the weapons=20
from the Sword Worlds (as I understood it, SW weapons are quite good=20
material ...?!)

This would make a =B4golden (or iridium?) triangle=B4 involve
Sword Worlds - Domain of Deneb - Zhodani with
  weapons    -  communicators  -  psionics

Does anyone see a thing that is out of canon, or has got an even better ide=
a?
Perhaps it is even possible to involve Darrian and making it a quadrangle?
What do you think?

Greetings from L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:41:29 -0500 (EST)
From: neo@total.net (Glenn Grant)
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com> asks,

>Where did the technological conservatism in the Traveller universe start, and
>why is it that some forms of handwaving are acceptable and unchallenged, while
>anything new is scrutinized under a magnifying glass and often discarded?

I agree whole-heartedly with your post. You've partially answered your own
question, of course. The Traveller universe was based on certain types of
American Science Fiction from the 50's thru mid-70's. So any new
developments in real or speculative science and tech since the 70's have to
be carefully scrutinized and filtered, to maintain the internal consistency
of the Traveller setting.

>Is there some collective mental block on Traveller fans?  Or are certain
>things so earth shattering as to change the universe completely (full-scale
>nanotech is one such thing that would change the universe completely, I mean,
>if replicators could be built by other replicators then there wouldn't be much
>need to go from planet to planet in a search for elusive credits) or are there
>other reasons?  Computer science seems to be toned down in a huge way in the
>Traveller universe as well.

Traveller fans are clearly science-literate and capable of getting the hang
of virtually any speculative technology. Mostly the conservatism stems from
trying to maintain what consistency there is in the Trav universe.

Remember also that Traveller is a role-playing game, and it's just easier
to roleplay in a setting somewhat similar to one's own society. The more
alien the setting and characters, the harder it is to identify with, or
even to guess what one is supposed to _do_ from one minute to the next. 

>Some examples:  reactionless drives.  jump drives.  If we can suspend our
>disbelief to cover these things (one seems to violate the laws of physics, the
>other circumvents them nicely) how come artificial intelligence,
>teleportation, genetic engineering, cybernetics and nanotech all seem to be
>completely taboo?

I've been working for over a year just laying the groundwork for a
complicated Traveller campaign which integrates much of the above and more
(though not teleportation). Why is it taking so long? Because I've had to
throw out the entire Imperium universe and start from scratch. Although I'm
sticking to many of the precepts of the Traveller setting (1 week per jump,
for instance), I have to write a wholely new future history, map my own
game universe, invent all new alien species, as well as work out for myself
how all the new elements actually work, how the effect the society and
economy, how the players use and interact with these technologies, and - as
you point out - why there's still any kind of interstellar trade when
nanotech would seem to make it all unnecessary.

It's an enormous job, but I'm having a ball doing it. Maybe someday I'll
actually have enough done that we'll be able to play the damn thing. And
yes, I'll post bits and pieces to the list when I feel they're ready.

>But why are Traveller fans so conservative on other issues?  Artificial
>intelligence and artificial life are glaring examples.
>Granted, some advances have the danger of changing the flavor of Traveller's
>space-opera feel.

That's a good reason to do it, actually. I never liked space opera much,
and feel there's 'way too much "Ensign Flandry" in the Traveller universe.
Even when Traveller first appeared in the '70's I thought it was too
Fifties in its assumptions.

Also, Traveller is inherently conservative in the political sense: the game
assumes a libertarian far future where the Invisible Hand of the Market
rules all. This is fun for role-playing purposes, but I don't find it
convincing. I believe that nanotech, replicating automated factories,
biotech, and AI will add up to a society of vast overabundance, a
post-scarcity world where trade is much less necessary and largely a matter
of cultural exchange. In such a society, people achieve status not by
accumulating wealth, but by *giving it away* (as in West Coast native
'Potlatches' and New Guinea 'Moka' ceremonies). This would be hard to work
into a role-playing game: the very possibility of such a society is
literally unthinkable to the vast majority of people today. We still live
in a scarcity economy and too many people seem incapable of imagining
anything else.

>Cybernetics run the risk, if used improperly, of turning
>the game into Cyberpunk in space.

Not necessarily. There are a lot of silly assumptions in the Cyberpunk
milieu (and I'm referring here to the R.Talsorian view of Cyberpunk, not
necessarily to the works of Gibson/Sterling/Shirley/etc.). First is the
bizarre universal fetish for implants and prosthetics; though body
modication is popular in almost every culture - increasingly so in our own
- - does this really mean everyone is going to want to lop off their arms in
favor of myoelectric replacements? And while virtual reality is lots of fun
for playing games, is it really all that useful in day-to-day life? It
*might* be - I can imagine a future where most people go to school, work,
and 'hang out' in virtual worlds - but again we run into the problem that
it's not great as a role-playing setting.

I *am* trying to integrate a lot of cybernetics and other new tech into my
game universe, but I'm being highly selective and examining these things
with a lot of skepticism. For instance, I've been thinking a lot about
nanotech, and ways to limit its abilities. This isn't magic, after all. I
assume that, below TL 16, nanotech requires highly controlled environments
to function at all - very low temperatures and very high vacuum. Here's a
related 'Library' entry I wrote on the subject (note the extremely rapid
technological evolution from TL 8 to partial TL 13):
 
- ---- 
fabricator - Any device capable of automatically assembling a wide variety
of tools, materials, spare parts and other objects, given only the
specifications for their assembly and a supply of specially prepared
generic materials. Early protoype-fabricators (TL 8), capable of precisely
reproducing in plastic the form of complex objects, were first developed on
Terra in the late 20th century. Specialized industrial nanofacturing
systems (TL 12) appeared by 2010, and general-purpose home nanofabricators
(TL 13) were marketed in 2035. Even at TL 15, fabricators remain limited by
the supply of prepared feedstock molecules and the availability of
compatible object-specification software, both of which are inherently
expensive.
- ----

Other stuff that I'm working into the game:

- - neomorph clades (variant human body forms, a la Sterling and Bear),
- - 'cogents' (conscious machines),
- - widespread populations of uplifted species (a la Brin),
- - clones and several different types of clone society (including
parthogenetics, cadre societies, twinworlds, and others),
- - widespread use of ectogestation (artificial wombs and womb implants),
- - much, much more galactic history (going back at least 1.6 billion years),
- - haptic interfaces (electronic 'touch' media) and 'sensies' as pop media,
- - 'illyrion' (superstable elements lifted from Delany's _Nova_, used as a
power source and essential jumpdrive componant),
- - inorganic species,
- - widespread synthetic life,
- - jumpspace planes connected by 'junction stars',
- - slowspace planes (where jumpdrives don't work, interleaved with the
jumpspace levels),
- - nanoelectronics & nanofacturing,
- - photonics,
- - picting implants (from Bear's _Eon_),
- - widespread body switching and sex-changing (a la John Varley),
- - and radio CETI with civilizations throughout the Milky Way

...to start with, anyway :)

I'll be sharing more of my work on this stuff when it's in more coherent form.

 + GMG +

    -----------------------Glenn Grant-----------------------  
                         <neo@total.net>
    Web: <http://helios.physics.utoronto.ca:8080/ggrant.html>
        "...a starship, a robot, two sex toys, and a gun:
      the raw, heady essence of interstellar civilization."
                        --Kenji Schwarz

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:47:17 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Biologic Components : Care and Feeding

>On Thu, 4 Dec 1997, Peter H. Brenton wrote:
>
>>
>> The Biological Processor is not a true life form, but, like other living
>> tissue, it must be sustained with oxygen and food.  All that you need is
>> included in your bio-care kit, and replacement supplies can be found at any
>> Bio-Pro Corp representative located throughout the subsector.
>>
>
>I wonder if several bio-processors could be networked together and mirror
>each other, in case one died or sustained damage - kind of like a
>RAID.

Don't confuse a processor with a storage device.  A more appropriate
analogy would be a multi-processor computer...like a server with 4 pentium
chips working in parrallel.

Generally, the biological processors I am working with are a mature,
reliable technology.  Not one that routinely needs backups.  Of course,
once they leave the subsector...

Pete



Peter H. Brenton
MIT's Plasma Science and Fusion Center
(617) 253-3185
pbrenton@mit.edu

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:50:14 -0600
From: "Kevin L. Kitchens" <peiprog@feist.com>
Subject: List server address???

What is the address for the listserver running TML?

I need to make some changes...
 The Perfect Game - http://www.peiprog.com/PerfectGame
========================================================
 Serving enthusiasts of computer baseball simulations
========================================================

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:57:45 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)

>Essentially what I'm envisioning is almost like a modular portion of the
>ship with explosive bolts that can be ejected (ala current fighter ejection
>seats). So the entire bridge doubles as an escape pod. I suppose at higher
>tech levels you might even have it tied into the computer, so when it
>anticipates catastrophic damage, it scuttles the plug.

Been there, done that.  Seriously though, I designed a ship (under
Megatraveller) which was a 1500 ton survey/exploratory trader which had an
ejectable bridge.  It was saucer shaped (no ST comments please) and was
basically treated as a 30 ton ship's boat in an external mount for design
purposes (although there was no airlock).  Ejecting the bridge not only
could save the bridge crew, it preserved what was then the single most
expensive component; the computer.

The thing was fitted with a single, one shot chemical rocket for 'blasting
clear', as well as the obligatory explosive seperation bolts.  Since the
bridge already contained most of the commo gear there was no need for
additional emergency radios or such.  There was no real chance of long term
survival in the thing; no low beths, no jdrive, no way to land, but hey,
where there's life, there's hope right?

Oh, in combat when there was a hit on any bridge component I gave a 10%
chance that the bridge would spontaneously eject itself, effectively ending
the battle for those on the bridge (the ship did have an aux bridge near
engineering).  It would have been funny if this had ever actually occurred.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 07:58:18 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Plastic Surgery (was Re: Technological Conservatism)

John R. Snead wrote:

> Well, since I mentioned trying to change the rather low tech feel most of
> Traveller has, I'll start the ball rolling:
>
> Plastic Surgery in Traveller:

This is excellent stuff. I'll be updating my Tech Level charts with  it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:03:34 -0600
From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
Subject: Re: Virus and TNE

Robert Flammang wrote:
> 
> >
>    Hi.
> 
> > From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
> 
> > Let's talk about relativistic rocks instead. Is it possible for a high-pop
> > world (pop A, TL 15 or so) to envelop itself in a sufficiently dense dust,
> > sand or gravel cloud that it will destroy all incoming rocks? (Remember, to
> > the rocks the grains of sand are hitting them at 0.1 c....)
> 
>    You bet; it wouldn't take very much sand, actually, to transform the
>    rock's kinetic energy into x-rays.  Provided this sand was far enough
>    away, the x-rays would diffuse to a harmless intensity before striking
>    the world.
> 
>    Judging from Los Alamos's range-energy tables, the sand needed is less
>    than 0.1 gram per square centimeter, distributed about some convenient
>    depth (say, 10,000 km).  This much sand will slow the rock's protons
>    and electrons down to `harmless' energies.  It won't stop the
>    neutrons, but they will scatter, just like the x-rays, to a harmless
>    intensity if given enough range.
> 
>    The problem would be getting enough sand around a mainworld.  To place
>    a 0.1-g/cm^2 shell at 100 diameters from an earthlike world would
>    require 2.0E+19 kg of sand.  That's 1 300,000th the mass of the earth!
>    Of course, any tech base advanced enough to pump 450 billion joules
>    per gram into a fair-sized rock to get it going at 0.1c should not
>    have too much trouble pumping enough energy into 2.0E+19 kg of sand to
>    get it into orbit.  For smaller worlds, this mass requirement would
>    decrease as the cube of the size rating. (Earth's size rating is 8.)

Next Question:

How much of this world's Sun's energy will be blocked by this cloud of
sand, and how will that affect the climate and habitability of the
world?

Of course, if the population had to choose between being pulverized by a
near-c rock and slowly freezing to death...

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:12:57 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Bridge Ejection Plug (Help)

>On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, SD Mooney wrote:
>
>> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>>
>> >Remember, unlike the Enterprise, the Galactica, and Imperial Star
>> >Destroyers, a *real* spacegoing warship will not have the bridge
>> >anywhere *near* the outer hull. It'll be in towards the center of the
>> >ship so as to have the most protection possible. A "window" gives you
>> >no useful info when the enemy is thousands of km away.
>>
>> Don't forget the B5 White Stars either... If some debris (or a weapon) hi=
t
>> that exposed bridge someone might get killed. ;-)
>>
>
>I don=B4t recall the plans of the Azhanti High Lightning correctly, but I
>think it had the bridge somewhere inside ... at the top was a lounge with
>a bubble window in the direction of flight.
>

Right, The Military classes/refits of the AHL have a big bridge taking up
half of one of the decks in the "body".  On some of the vessels, however,
the domed area at the very end of "bowsprit" was either a 'running bridge'
or a 'survay bridge' I believe.  This was for the non-combatant (heh,
noncombatant with a PA spinal) Scout Cruiser version I think, or perhaps
for the Oberlindes "Armed Merchant" refit bopping around Vargr space.
Incidentially, AHL is one of the few official designs which orients the
"floor" of the decks along the axis of accelleration of the vessel instead
of perpendicular to it.  I love that ship.

Returning to topic, the modular ejection bridge concept works for me on
smaller (less than 5000 ton, merchant) vessels.  Its a chance to survive
when your ship is about to explode from damage sustained.  Sure, this
safety feature will only be useful in one in 1000 incidents, I haven't used
my airbags yet either, but Im glad I got them.

Pete

Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 08:17:44 -0700
From: Erwin Fritz <efritz@glja.com>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

Jim Heivilin wrote:

> I'm opening myself up for untold criticism but I seem to remember a
> number of years ago reading something that said the original Traveller
> made four assumptions about technology; 1) jump drives and ftl travel,
> 2) efficient fusion power plants, 3) anti-gravity technology and I
> don't seem to remember the last.  Everything else was based on
> 'logical' extensions of existing technology.

These items are detailed in the opening paragraphs of the MT
Referee Manual chapter on Craft Design. Check there. I'd check but I'm at work
and don't have my stuff with me.

Erwin

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 16:32:34 +0100
From: anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman)
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

>This isn't an attack on anyone or anything.  It just seems that in a game that
>relies so heavily on imagination and suspension of disbelief there seems to be
>alot lacking when it comes to high-technology.  Sorry if anyone gets offended
>by this post, because its not the intent. :)
>
>Semo

Teleportation, nanotech, artificial intelligence IMHO aren't high tech but
Science Fiction and as we all know; inventing more than a few unscientific
(in the sense that we cannot do back of the envelope calculations as to its
effects) technologies leads to serious changes in the sociology. This is
actually MORE of a problem in RPGs athan in fiction as the author can
decide of what his inhabitants will do but the ref will not.

I would like more robots/AI in Traveller as to me this will not change the
sociology much but nanotech - You'd be better off with a totally different
rpg. My personal view after having read some nonfictional stuff from the
man himself (What's his name; Drexler right?) is that the nanotech he
describes is similar to steamdriven artificial intelligence. Workable in
theory but practical matters such as thermal effects, quantum "fuzziness"
and most important of all the complexity of programming the matter
compilers make them Ancient tech or worse.


/Anders Backman
Aniware AB
anders.backman@aniware.se

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:21:02 EST
From: SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

>	The reason Traveller isn't more like {Star Wars, Star Trek,
>Battlestar Galactica, Blood Music, Neuromancer, ...}, and doesn't
>include technology like {Teleportation, Nanotek, Shields,
>Phasers, Warp Drive, Neural Jacks, ...} is because Traveller
>isn't {Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Blood Music,
>Neuromancer, ...}.

Feels kind of like a dismissal to me :)

Star Wars:  Good movies, but from a technological point utterly backwards
(computer guidance systems?  what is a computer?  oh yeah, the imperials have
big ones with flashing lights.)

Star Trek:  Would never think of patterning a universe on Star Trek, and the
Traveller universe would have to be changed entirely to fit into it.

Battlestar Galactica:  Hmmm...  I remember liking the show when I was small,
but pilots with helmets that look like King Tut should have worn on a bad hair
day are pretty cool.  That's the standard dress for my Imperial Marines :)

Blood Music:  Ne'er read it, assuming it is a book.

Neuromancer:  I liked the book, but its obvious that Trav and Gibson have
little in common.

I think you may have missed the whole point of the message entirely.  I asked
a question as to why people seem to be held back on technology in the Trav
universe.  My Traveller universe runs nothing like any of the above films or
books, nor would I want it to.  I'm not a 10 year old kid with his first copy
of Traveller saying "Cool, I want to have a fight between the Executor and the
Enterprise" :)

My point was that there are many sciences that are becoming extremely well
advanced in the modern, real world that leaving them out entirely becomes a
gaping hole.  It was a question to see if there was some deeper reason that
these disciplines were being largely ignored.  I wasn't around when
battledress was introduced into the Trav universe, but did people say, "Hey,
Trav shouldn't be like Starship Troopers!" when it was?

>	Marc Miller, et. al., were looking for a specific feel; even the
>very first Traveller had a very "hard-science" feel.  Go back &
>reread the space combat rules in the original LBB if you don't
>buy that ... Having set that feel, it's been propagated forward,
>until the entire fabric of what Traveller is formed. 

Okay, maybe they were going for a "hard-science" feel, but now I know that you
missed the point of my message.  Genetic engineering exists today and is
actually used and is pretty advanced.  Sheep have been cloned and stabilized.
Baboons have been cloned and died shortly thereafter.  We have algae that can
eat oil to help clean up slicks in the ocean.  Yet, genetic engineering gets
only passing coverage in Traveller.  Nanotechnology exists.  There is alot of
money being pumped into the discipline, and alot of research is being done.
The japanese have actually turned out some of the tiny critters already.
Computer science is quite real and is advancing at a rapid pace, the same with
electronics.

>Start throwing in other things, and you'll tear the fabric. Maybe you
>can make something else out of the shreds, but it won't be
>Traveller ...

Geez.  That's an awfully narrowminded attitude.  If we all stuck so closely to
the Traveller aesthetic, we would have no combat armor, no huge ships, and
perhaps even no grav tanks (they weren't covered by the original LBBs were
they?).

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:30:43 EST
From: SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Plastic Surgery (was Re: Technological Conservatism)

>TL 8-9:
>
>Moderate Plastic Surgery, early body-sculpting, basic disguises.  The
>surgery is undetectable, but limited, disguises are imperfect unless the
>individuals are very similar.  [No height modifications, +/- up to 10 kg]. 

Aha, I guess you've never seen Face/Off!!!  If they can do it in a movie, they
can do it in real life :)

In all seriousness a very cool post.  I will clip it and save it.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 10:37:27 EST
From: Ithklur <Ithklur@aol.com>
Subject: Delurking for some answers

Hi everyone!  I apologize before-hand, because I know this question has been
asks a thousand times on this list already.  However, I just resubscribed
after an extended absence, so I'll missed any threads.  Here goes:

When is Deluxe Traveller due???

I have just joined a T4 campaign, and want to buy a copy of the rulebook, but
am loath to do so knowing a new version (sans errata-from-hell) is on its way.

Any clues would be appreciated.

Thanks!

Ithklur

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 05:48:28 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

In mail you write:

> Where did the technological conservatism in the Traveller universe start, and
> why is it that some forms of handwaving are acceptable and unchallenged, 
> while anything new is scrutinized under a magnifying glass and often
> discarded?

Partly because Traveller is in efect based on the "feel" of 50s and 60s
SF.

> other reasons?  Computer science seems to be toned down in a huge way in the
> Traveller universe as well.

If we *don't* tone down computer science we wind up with Vernor Vinge's
singularity. That is, in about 100 years from now, things will have
changed so much as to constitute a *qualitative* change. And we
*cannot* concieve of the results. 

> Some examples:  reactionless drives.  jump drives.  If we can suspend our
> disbelief to cover these things (one seems to violate the laws of physics, 
> the
> other circumvents them nicely) how come artificial intelligence,
> teleportation, genetic engineering, cybernetics and nanotech all seem to be
> completely taboo?  This is especially strange considering that some of these
> are actually becoming pretty advanced in our day, a mere TL8 society or so...

Teleportation gives a different "feel" it also has some non-obvious
problems that tend toi make it lead to a short, bloody war. Read
Niven's essay "Theory and Practice of Teleportation" for a good
overview. 

Genetic engineering is another thing that quickly leads to an
unrecognizable society.

AI & cybernetics lead to the Singularity (Read Vinge's "Marooned in
Realtime" to get an idea of what that would involve). 

And nanotech also changes things beyond recognition. Heck, even
technology far *short* of nanotech, that we are already working on
will do this. Within a century we'll have boxes that you feed specs and
raw materials (anything containing the needed elements) and they'll
produce the item. S.M. Stirling called them "fabers" and others have
picked up the term. With such devices the sole limit on what you can do
is availability of specs for an item, and the size of item your faber
can handle (it's hard to build a car if the output opening is only 6
inches across :-). Again, this make society unrecognizable.

> It seems like Traveller fans are unwilling to try to project too far into the
> future and can only come up with improvements on today's technology.  It was
> refreshing to see the TL16 weapons in the Emperor's Arsenal, weapons that 
> were
> more or less "non-canon".  I like the Anti-matter/Contragrav gun for example.
> But these ideas in the Traveller universe are few and far between.

The problem is that *any* SF roleplaying game *has* to stick to only
"minor" advances in tech. If it doesn't you either wind up with the
players poking holes in things until it falls apart, or else you wind
up with a socierty/civilization that the players can't really deal with
because it's just too different.

Frankly *anything* set more than 100 years ahead is going to be pure
BS, unless they come up with reasons for things *not* changing.

Silly example. If a D&D/AD&D world actually *existed, it wouldn't look
much at *all* like the usual "medieval + magic" one. The magic can do
far too many things, and the people, not just a few adventurers, would
be using it. You'd wind up with something more like our society, except
with magic instead of engineering.

Likewise, high tech has too many consequences, and builds upon itself
too fast for a *truly* future setup to be workable. You wind up with
Clarke's Law: Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable
from magic. And we can't guess the rules that magic will follow.

> When Traveller first came out, there were no really "high-tech" weapons with
> the exception of lasers right?  Then, later on came meson guns, and particle
> accelerators, and plasma rifles...  But people accepted them and they became
> part of the Traveller universe, and in fact, became almost "uniquely"
> Traveller.

Particle beams *already* exist. Meson guns can't really exist, but if
they did, there'd be other things related to whatever new principles
enabled them to work, that'd have effects we can't imagine.

The basic problem is always that to be *playable*, the game has to be
essentially a slightly modified *now* with a few extra goodies thrown
in. 

Heck, even the technology Traveller *has* causes problems. Given the
sort of fusion power plants that exist in the game, it's *cheaper* to
process raw rock into its component elements than it is to import
materials from off planet!

I'm not talking theory here. I'm talking about something *we* could
build if we had that much power, that cheaply. And it's only a tiny
jump to assume that you can use the same tech that allows the fusion
reactors to make the element seperator (essentially an overgrown mass
spectrograph) even *more* efficient. 

So right there you have something that *cannot* have been overlooked
for as much as a century, much less the several millenia postulated in
the rules, that *totally* blows the setup.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:41:57 +0000
From: Jo_Grant/DUB/Lotus@lotus.com
Subject: AIMI ROCKS

[Sahel and Keryut are two polities in a balkanised asteroid belt of the
referee's choice. They each have a disputed claim to the Aimi Rocks sub
group. The following is a diplomatic statement by the Sahel Government
which a referee might use as the foundation to an aventure...]


KERYUTIAN FOREIGN POLICY AND PRACTICE AS EVIDENCED BY THE RECENT KERYUTIAN
CLAIMS TO THE AIMI ROCKS

     Introduction
     The Crisis
     The Legal Status of Aimi
     The Reaction of the European Parliament
     The International Court of Justice
     Keryut's Legal Assertions
     Political Aspects of the Dispute


Introduction

International treaties and agreements dating back to 1023 establish
unequivocally that the Aimi planetoids constitute an integral part of Sahel
sovereign territory.

The fact that the tension caused by the recent Keryutian claims to the Aimi
rocks did not erupt into immediate conflict does not in the least mean that
the danger has
receded. On the contrary, Keryut, through its former Prime Minister's
explicit threat to use military force against Sahel, continues to press
claims that are unfounded both in international law and in the established
practice of civilized relations among nations.

This recent crisis was particularly serious because Keryut's principal
argument establishing her claim to these planetoids is that the
International Treaties that set down the territorial status of the trailing
belt are not necessarily binding on Keryut. By questioning the sovereignty
of the Aimi rocks Keryut thus seeks to overthrow the territorial status of
the entire region.

At the same time, Keryut has consistently refused to support the assertions
she has suddenly put forward through peaceful and legal avenues, by
bringing them to the Imperial Court of Justice, as both Sahel, a number of
Anropeur Union polities, and the Kingdom of Acre have repeatedly suggested.

As will be seen in greater detail in the following paragraphs, the Aimi
rocks have been under Sahel sovereignty since the signing of the Sarip
Peace Treaty with Yaro in 1047. For half a century Keryut did not raise any
questions concerning the status of the planetoids and rocks. Unfortunately,
the reason she does so now falls within the well-documented pattern of
illegal Keryutian intentions and actions over the past twenty years.

More specifically, in 1074, Keryut invaded and occupied Pryscu in defiance
of international law and in the face of the indignation of the international
community, as expressed in numerous resolutions of the Security Council and
the General Assembly of the Imperial Senate.

At the same time, she turned her sights to the rest of the tailing Belt, by
setting up the so-called "Army of the Belt," a overtly offensive military
force equipped with the largest fleet of landing craft in the System.
Keryut also raised claims against Sahel sovereign rights concerning the
mass plateau, control of the skimming lanes of the gas giants, as well as
Sahel's right, as established in international law, to extend her
territorial waters up to 1.2 A.U.

In June of last year, the Keryutian Parliament passed an unprecedented
resolution authorizing the Keryutian government to use all means, including
military ones, should Sahel exercise her legitimate rights concerning the
extension of her territorial waters.

Keryut also challenges Sahel's national space lanes, backing up her claims
by frequent and at times massive violations of the space lanes by her
military spacecraft.

Unfortunately, the threat of the use of military force seems to be an
integral part of Keryutian foreign policy. Just as in the case of the
territorial waters, during the Aimi
incident Keryut brandished the threat of war in order to impose her
objectives, declaring that any attempt to question self-proclaimed
"Keryutian sovereignty" would
constitute a causus belli.

These actions, encouraged - at least initially - by the lack of any firm
reaction on the part of the international community, have now been proven
to be part of
Keryut's design to question Sahel's internationally established rights in
the tailing Belt, and to usurp sovereignty of at least half of the tailing
Belt, by officially rejecting the established legal status quo.

If Keryut's attempts to question the binding force of international
agreements were valid, then the majority of the treaties regulating
international frontiers after the
First and Second Frontier Wars would collapse.

The Crisis

On the 1095-333, the Keryutian Cargo ship "Figen Akat" ran aground on one
of the Aimi rocks, situated .25 A.U. from the Sahel planetoid of Minokali.
Although the accident occurred in Sahel territorial space, the captain of
the "Figen Akat" refused assistance from the competent Sahel authorities,
claiming that he was within Keryutian territorial waters. Despite
assurances to the contrary, the captain sought assistance from the
Keryutian authorities

Finally, in agreement with the Keryutian company that owned the ship, the
"Figen Akat" was set free with the aid of a Sahel tug boat, owned by the
company Matsas Star, and towed to the Keryutian port of Guklul.

On the 1095-337, the Keryutian Ministry of Foreign Affairs addressed a
Verbal Note to the Embassy of Sahel in Ankara, asserting for the first time
that Aimi constitutes a part of Keryutian territory, as it was registered
in the land registry of the Keryutian province of Mulga. It should be noted
that this was the first time that Keryut openly laid claims over actual Sahel
territory.

In response to Keryut's claims, on the 1096-010, the Sahel Embassy
addressed a Verbal Note to the Keryutian Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In that
Note the Keryutian claim to the planetoids was rejected. The Note underlined
the fact that Keryut had reaffirmed Aimi as belonging to Yaro by virtue of a
bilateral agreement signed between the two countries in 1032, and that the
planetoids were subsequently ceded to Sahel with the rest of the Codedanese
planetoid cluster by the Sarip Peace Treaty of 1047.

Keryut then addressed a second Verbal Note to Sahel on the 1096-029,
wherein the initial claim was repeated and extended with the request for
negotiations concerning the status of all the asteroids, planetoids and
rocks whose status, according to Keryut, is not well determined.

In response Sahel addressed a Verbal Note to Keryut on 1096-044. In that
Note Sahel presented international legal documents and other facts
establishing unequivocally the territorial status of all asteroids,
planetoids and rocks in the tailing Belt. Sahel emphasized that no country,
including Keryut, had ever challenged that status in the past. The Note
concluded that, as is only natural, Sahel would not negotiate with Keryut
matters pertaining to its territorial sovereignty as established by
international law and treaties.

The tension over Aimi began to escalate on 027, when Keryutian journalists
from the newspaper Hurriyet took down the Sahel flag from the larger of the
two Aimi planetoids and raised the Keryutian one. On 028 a Sahel navy
detachment replaced the Sahel flag.

Initially, there were no naval units in the area except one Sahel unit and
a Keryutian torpedo boat. On 030, however, Keryut sent several ships to the
area, prompting Sahel to send an equal number. A Keryutian frigate violated
Sahel territorial waters targeting a Sahel gunboat that was patrolling the
area. A Keryutian recon drone launching off from one of the Keryutian
frigates flew past the Aimi rocks. At the same time, Keryutian fighters
repeatedly violated Sahel space.

The tension reached its peak in the early morning hours of 031, when the
Keryutian army landed some men on the smaller of the Aimi rocks. An Acre
mediation effort had already been initiated by means of repeated radio
contacts between King Lintnoc and Prime Minister Simitis, Secretary of
State Narew Ristophen and Under Secretary Bohrooke with Foreign Minister
Banpalos, and the Ministers of Defense Irsenas and Sherry.

After a special session of the Government's National Security Council in
the early hours of 031, the Ministers of Defense and Foreign Affairs
announced that an understanding had been reached by means of Acre
mediation. Both sides would withdraw their forces from the area of Aimi and
the situation would return to its previous condition (the "status quo
ante").

The Legal Status of Aimi

The Aimi planetoids lie at a distance of .19 astronomical units from the
Sahel planetoid of Kalolimnos, .53 a.u. from the Sahel planetoid of
Lakymnos, .365 a.u. from the edige of Keryutian space and .23 a.u. from the
Keryutian planetoid of Vacus (formerly Tako). Like the rest of the
Cocecanese planetoid cluster, they were ceded to Yaro by virtue of article
15 of the Lausanne Peace Treaty of 1023.

At least three international agreements establish unambiguously Sahel's
ownership of Aimi.

The first is the 1023 Lausanne Peace Treaty, which limits Keryutian
sovereignty -- with the exception of Ombris, Tonedes and the Ribbet
planetoids -- explicitly only over planetoids lying within a .3 a.u. limit
of the Keryutian space (Article 12). As noted above, however, Aimi are .365
a.u. from Keryutian space. Under Article 16 of the same Peace Treaty,
Keryut "renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the
territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty
and the planetoids other than those over which her sovereignty is
recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and
planetoids being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned."

The second is the 1032-004 Agreement between Yaro and Keryut and its
supplementary agreement of 1032-336. More specifically, the 004 Agreement
set down with precision the spacial frontier between the asteroid of
Cestallirozo and Keryutian territory. The day this Agreement was signed,
the two parties exchanged official letters by which they mutually asserted
that there was no difference between them as to their respective
territorial sovereignty, and called for a joint Yaro-Keryutian technical
committee to be set up for the purpose of precisely delimiting the rest of
the spacial boundary between the Codedanese and the Keryutian coast.

In accordance with this Agreement, the representatives of Yaro and Keryut
signed in Aknara, on 1032-336, a supplementary agreement by which the rest
of the spacial frontier between the Codedanese and the Keryutian teritory
was precisely delimited. The agreement fixes 37 pairs of reference points
between which the
spacial boundary dividing Keryutian and Yaran territory (which, at the
time, included the tailing Belt Codedanese cluster) was drawn.

Point 30 of this agreement states that the spacial frontier north of
Lakymnos will pass at a median distance between the Aimi rocks (on the
Yaran side) and Tako
planetoid (on the Keryutian side). Thus, Yaran sovereignty over Aimi is
confirmed by the explicit reference made to them in the text itself.

The third international agreement was the Sarip Treaty of 1047, signed
between Yaro and the Allied Powers after the conclusion of The Second
Frontier War. In that treaty Yaro ceded the Codedanese cluster and all
adjacent planetoids to Sahel. As is well known, under international law,
the successor state automatically assumes all the rights and obligations
that have been established by international treaty between the initial
possessor state and every third party (in this case, between Yaro and
Keryut).

The Reaction of the Anropeur Parliament

The Anropeur Parliament, on 1096-042, adopted a resolution entitled "On the
Provocative Actions and Contestation of Sovereign Rights by Keryut Against
a Member State of the Union" by an overwhelming 342 to 21 majority. In that
resolution the Parliament found that "the rocks of Aimi belongs to the
Codedanese group of planetoids" pursuant to the 1023, 1032 and 1047
treaties. The Parliament also condemned "the dangerous violation by Keryut
of the sovereign rights of Sahel," and called on Keryut to comply "with
international treaties" and to abstain from non-peaceful actions or threats
of such actions.

It should be noted that the Parliament, a few months earlier, had ratified
the Customs Union agreement between Keryut and the EU. It should further be
noted that the Common Position of the Council, set out at the AU-Keryut
Association Council meeting of 1095-072, stated that it was "of paramount
importance to encourage good neighborly relations between Keryut and its
neighboring Member States of the AU." The Parliament, in its 1096-044
resolution, emphasized that "these privileged relations between the Union
and Keryut should automatically preclude any military aggression."

The International Court of Justice

After the crisis, the Acre administration suggested that Keryut's Aimi
claims be taken for peaceful resolution to the Imperial Court of Justice.

Similarly, on 1096-054, the Yaran Presidency of the Anropeur Union issued
the summary of discussions that took place that day among the AU's fifteen
Foreign Ministers on the issue of Aimi. In that announcement the
Presidency, among other things, emphasized that "territorial disputes must
be resolved only through recourse to Law, that is to say, by the Imperial
Court of Justice."

Keryut immediately turned down both appeals. In contrast, from the
beginning of the crisis Sahel has stated that it would consider such an
adjudication should Keryut, which is the party raising the territorial
claims in the present instance, where to apply to the Court.

It should be noted that, unlike Sahel, Keryut has not yet accepted the
jurisdiction of the ICJ.

Keryut's Legal Assertions

The principal argument on which Keryut bases its claim is the assertion
that the legal procedures of the agreement of 1032-308 were not completed
and that it
was not registered with the Secretariat of the League of Soverigns.

However, hte 308 Agreement was supplementary to that of 001, which set the
spacial frontier between Cestallorozi and the Keryutian coast and settled
an issue concerning the sovereignty of some planetoids around Cestallorozi,
over which there was a difference of opinion between the two sides. The 308
agreement did not aim at settling any territorial difference between the
two countries, as was stated both in the text of the agreement itself and
in the letters exchanged on 1032-004, between the then Keryutian Minister
of Foreign Affairs and the then Yaran Ambassador in Aknara, by which the
two parties declared that there existed no difference as to the territorial
sovereignty of each side. The 308 agreement merely sets with precision the
remaining spacial frontier between the Codedanese and the  Keryutian
territory. For this reason it did not need separate registration with the
Secretariat of the League of Soverigns. It is thus not surprising that the
delimitation of the frontier set by this agreement was never in the past
contested by Keryut or Yaro, even after the Codedanese was ceded to Sahel.

Keryut has further asserted that Sahel allegedly had doubts, at the time of
the signing of the Sarip Peace Treaty, concerning the validity of the 1032
agreements. This Keryutian argument is unfounded both in law and in fact.
As noted above, according to international law, the successor state
succeeds to all rights and obligations established by international
treaties between the original possessor state and any third party. Sahel
had no doubt as to the validity of the aforementioned agreements nor had
Keryut or Yaro, since they both immediately implemented the provisions of
the Agreement and abided by them thereafter. There is clearly no need for
any confirmation of the validity of any treaty regulating the status of the
ceded territories.

This is further evidenced by other international agreements and maps of the
immediate post Frontier-War period, according to which this delimitation is
officially recognized by Keryut as her frontier line with Sahel. To mention
just two, there is the map attached to the 1050 ICAO Regional Agreement
adopted by the Council of the Organization, and also the official Keryutian
map included in the 1053 edition of the Keryutian Ministry of Foreign
Affairs on Navigation through the Straits.

Furthermore, not only Sahel and Keryutian maps, but also official maps of
other countries such as the Kingdom of Acre and Yaro include the Aimi rocks
within Sahel
national territory.

Finally, the fact that both Sahel and Keryut considered the agreements of
1032 as valid, is shown by the fact that Sahel was the country that
exercised sovereign
rights over the Aimi planetoids all this time without Keryut ever raising
any protest. The Sahel Geographic Service repeatedly visited the Aimi
planetoids and used a trigonometric marker on the larger rock which it had
installed for its purposes, Sahel betlers mined regularly in the rocks
surrounding these planetoids, and Sahel
biologists are the owners of the alga that grow on the planetoids. Finally
stellar monitoring activities both by Sahel and the Anropeur Union were
carried out on the Aimi rocks since 1084.

Most recently, through a written statement in 1096-070, Keryut asserted
that, in the case of the tailing Belt, it abides only by those
international agreements that it itself considers valid, and then only by
those that both it and Sahel have signed.

In other words, Keryut indirectly denied the binding power of the
Yaro-Keryut agreement of 1032 (which reaffirmed Yaro's sovereignty over
Aimi, among other asteroids and planetoids) and of the Sarip Peace Treaty
of 1047 (in which Yaro, in turn, ceded the Codedanese cluster and all
adjacent planetoids to Sahel). Thus, for the first time, Keryut questioned
Sahel sovereignty not just over Aimi, but over all of the Codedanese
cluster.

Political Aspects of the Dispute

From the outset of the Aimi crisis Sahel has asked the Keryutian government
to affirm officially and unequivocally its adherence to three fundamental
principles that
guide relations among all civilized nations:

     that it respects international law and treaties;
     that it condemns the use of force or the threat of such use in
relations between nations; and
     that the country raising novel territorial claims -- in this case,
Keryut -- must seek their resolution by peaceful means, under international
law, at the Imperial Court of Justice.

Among nations today, these principles are self-evident. Any world that
finds it difficult to state its unequivocal acceptance of them is a world
that questions the very basis upon which peaceful relations among nations
are built.

Unfortunately, in the past two months Keryut has consistently refused to
make even these minimal and self-evident commitments. Its refusal persisted
in the face of
constant efforts by a number of Sahel's Anropeur Union partners, as well as
the Kingdom of Acre, urging Keryut to do just that. On 1096-081, the
Keryutian government refused to commit itself to similar principles, which
had previously been incorporated in the draft Common Position of the AU
Foreign Ministers. As a
consequence, the Council of Ministers had to postpone for the near future
the scheduled AU-Keryut Association Council.

Recognizing the paucity of its legal arguments, Keryut has recently claimed
that the matter (as well as other legal claims that Keryut unilaterally
raises against Sahel
sovereignty) should be settled through negotiations. It goes without saying
that all legitimate differences should be settled through dialogue. Sahel
has repeatedly
invited Keryut to a sincere dialogue over the strengthening of the economic
and cultural ties between the two countries. It has also invited Keryut to
negotiations over the drafting of a compromise for the submittal of the two
counties' differences over the tailing Belt mass plateau to the Imperial
Court of Justice.

Keryut has refused both of these proposals. Instead, in the case of Aimi,
it wishes to coerce Sahel into bilateral negotiations over Sahel sovereign
rights, under the
specter of the use of force. No civilized nation would willingly submit to
such a process, let alone to the open disregard of international law, and
neither will Sahel.
As seen above, the territorial status of the planetoids and rocks is
absolutely clear, and Keryut herself -- understandably -- never challenged
it in the past.

Unfortunately, Keryut's proposal appears to be nothing more than a
thinly-veiled attempt to legitimize in the eyes of the international
community an otherwise
insupportable claim of sovereignty over territory that belongs to another
sovereign nation. Indeed, when one compares Keryut's proposal for dialogue
with the
belligerent declarations made by former Keryutian Prime Minister Tunsa
Cellir in the aftermath of the Aimi crisis -- i.e., that 1,000 planetoids
in the tailing Belt are Keryutian (she later raised that figure to 3,000,
which is roughly the total number of planetoids in the area) -- Keryut's
real intentions become even more obvious. The former Keryutian Prime
Minister added that any attempt on the part of Sahel to challenge her
assessment would be a casus belli. This second threat of war comes at the
heels of the Keryutian Parliament's aforementioned resolution concerning
the extension of Sahel's territorial waters.

By challenging Sahel's internationally recognized frontiers, and by using
the threat of force to do so, Keryut violates the Charter of Imperium and
the principles of peaceful settlement of disputes and respect for
international frontiers, which, as a signatory to the Charter of the
Organization for Security and Cooperation in Anropeur, she has pledged to
respect. In so doing, Keryut establishes itself as a real and direct threat
to the peace and stability of the area and, in consequence, of Anropeur. If
allowed to continue unchallenged, this will create an extremely dangerous
precedent for all those ploities that, for one reason or another, consider
that the present borders of Anropeur are unjust.

Sahel, perhaps more than any other nation, wishes to have as its neighbor a
peaceful, stable, and prosperous Keryut. The absence of these factors can
divert the
imagination of some leaders to dangerous foreign policy adventures, as the
Aimi case illustrates. Sahel wishes to develop friendly and peaceful
relations with
Keryut, and it will keep striving to achieve them in spite of any problems
that may at times appear to block the way to friendship.

At the same time, neither Sahel nor the international community can afford
the destabilization of the tailing Belt region through the continuation or
the encouragement
of Keryut's illegal claims.

Sahel, on her part, will continue to defend the principles of international
law, respect for established borders, and the peaceful coexistence among
nations both with
respect to Keryut and with respect to all other countries in the region.

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2148
***********************************
Traveller-digest      Friday, December 5 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2149



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Plastic Surgery (was Re: Technological Conservatism)
re: Relativistic rock shields
Defend Against Virus (Was Re: What is virus ?)
Behemoth class dreadnaught
More on Imperial Squadrons
Near-C Rocks (Used to be:  Re: Virus and TNE)
Imperial Squadrons (the pipeline is open?)
Re: Plastic Surgery (was Re: Technological Conservatism)
Re: Defend Against Virus (Was Re: What is virus ?)
Re: Behemoth class dreadnaught
Re: Roving Gearheads -- ARRGH!
Re: Technological conservatism.
Milleu: 2100 TL-9 (no CG) heavy cargo lifter.
Postulated tech
Singularity (was Technological Conservatism)
Re: Defend Against Virus (Was Re: What is virus ?)
Near-C Rocks (Used to be:  Re: Virus and TNE)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 08:25:21 -0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Plastic Surgery (was Re: Technological Conservatism)

John Snead wrote:

>Well, since I mentioned trying to change the rather low tech feel most of
>Traveller has, I'll start the ball rolling:
>
>Plastic Surgery in Traveller:

I think you're underestimating the abilities of low-tech plastic surgeons a
bit, at least if we follow the Terran model of progression (which obviously
may not be generally applicable, given their/our lead in biomedicine).

>TL 6 & 7:
>
>Early Plastic Surgery, reconstruction only.

Cosmetic surgery was going on back in the teens and '20s; say TL-5.  There
was reconstructive surgery going on in "late antiquity", say the first two
or three centuries C.E.  TL-1?

>TL 8-9:
>
>Moderate Plastic Surgery, early body-sculpting, basic disguises.  The
>surgery is undetectable, but limited, disguises are imperfect unless the
>individuals are very similar.  [No height modifications, +/- up to 10 kg].
>
>TL 10-11:
>
>Advance Plastic Surgery, body sculpting, realistic disguises as anyone
>belonging within the appropriate height and weight range who belongs to
>the same human subspecies, and fully functional (sterile) sex-changes.  It

As the TML's budding* perv-about-the-list -- it depends what you mean by
"fully-functional" sex-changes... but for male-to-female jobs, there are
large numbers of recipients claiming "full functionality" from about TL7,
maybe TL8 surgical techniques.  The techniques are pretty low-tech; it's
just a matter of developing the expertise to implement them reliably.  For
female-to-male, they aren't even close with the technical side of it, yet,
let alone practice.  I'd write it up as a ~2 TL gap between the sexes,
maybe.

I liked this progression, though -- it went right into my file of Traveller
background material.


*No jokes about how we reproduce, s'il vous plait.  Actually, it's not
budding -- we do it by rewriting unsuspecting Normals' DNA through email.

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang Page:  http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 09:16:29 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Relativistic rock shields

>   The problem would be getting enough sand around a mainworld.  To place
>   a 0.1-g/cm^2 shell at 100 diameters from an earthlike world would
>   require 2.0E+19 kg of sand.

I don't think you need the shell to be out at 100 diameters. The Earth's
atmosphere is sufficiently opaque to X-rays that they won't be a problem; I
think it would be similarly opaque to slow neutrons. You don't even need to
slow down the rock's protons and electrons to harmless energies; if you 
convert a solid rock into a expanding cloud of vapour/plasma the vapour/plasma
won't make it through the atmosphere either. So you probably don't need
0.1 gm/cm^2 either - just one grain big enough to vapourize the rock per
rock-surface-area-unit.

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 09:16:23 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Defend Against Virus (Was Re: What is virus ?)

Douglas E. Berry responded: 

>>Based on the discussion, though, could someone give a concise 
>>explanation of how the Regency survived (Quarantine, etc.)  From the 
>>discussion, it sounds as though that would not really be possible, 
>>if you had to know the virus was coming....  Was it defense in 
>>depth?
>
>Archduke Norris (the former Duke of Regina) ordered a quarantine 
>running across the middle of Deneb.  Residents on the wrong side of 
>the line had a very short period to pick up and move.  *Nothing* that 
>could harbor Virus was allowed in with the refugess.  Ships were 
>stopped and had their computers checked with a fine tooth comb while 
>the Navy stood by at point blank range.

? How did he know it was coming?  
? How, in the time it takes to travel across jump space, did word get to 
him before the virus, and he have a chance to establish the quarantine?  
? Did they have a jump-6 dead zone where anything jumping in was 
destroyed due to radio/transponder/communication silence?

>
>Once the grace period ended, nothing moved across the border.  Any 
>attempt to enter Regency space was considered hostile.  One Vampire 
>Fleet did penetrate, with a single battleship making it to Trin where 
>it massacred much of the planet's population before suiciding onto
>the planet's surface.

Thanks for helping me piece it together.  
 
S/f
Greg
The Count
montecristo@hotmail.com


______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:37:35 -0600
From: Andrew Akins <igor@ames.net>
Subject: Behemoth class dreadnaught

To test out my FF&S2 spreadsheet (good thing to, I found some
bugs...looks like 1.6 will have to be made...) I designed the following
ship. I did this in about 45 minutes, so I didn't give it a lot of
thought. Thus, it might not be a tactically sound design. But hey, it
sure does make an impression :)

Behemoth class Dreadnaught
Designed by Andrew Akins

Statistics
 Tons: 900,000std (USL Close)
 Volume: 12,600,000m3
 Mass (L/C): 14,114,698t/13,565,228t
 Dimensions: 505.2m x 375.3m x86.6m
 Size: 11
 Crew: 19,342/25,827
 Passengers High/Med: 151/0
 Passengers Low: 0
 Troops/Science: 0/0
 Frozen Wratch: 25,827 ( 1 Group )
 Cargo: 3,400std (0/40 /Hdl:4x100t)
 Cost: 1,997,261.118MCr
 Maintenance: 536,141
 Tech Level: 12

Electronics
 Controls: Dynamic. Standard Automation. 6xFib Comp (CM:.35, CP:2.86)
   Bridge
 Communications: 1xRadio (1,000AU, 0.20MW). 1xLaser (1,000AU, 0.00MW).
 Sensors: 1xPEMS (15 [5mkm], 10MW). 1xAEMS (13 [16mkm] 2,500MW),
   2,000xLIDAR (15 [2mkm] 2MW ).
 Survey: 1xDensiometer (9, [500km]). 1xNeutrino(9.5 [1600] 5,000MW)
 ECM: 1x Area Jammer (13, 12,500MW). 1xDecp. Jammer (14, 250MW).
   1xPassive Jammer (16, 10MW)
 Signatures: Vis:0.0, IR:1.5 (1.0 at 981,256MW), Act:1.0 Neu:1, Grav:2

Peformance
                     3 Jump (90,000std/pc fuel)
               2.7/2.8 Maneuver ( /Thruster:945,000MW)
                   0/0 ContraGrav
                   n/a Atmosphere
                     4 Power (/Fus:1,740,000MW,1)
             288,642.9 Fuel (/Purif:24,6062MW)
 0/22,204/774/25,827/0 Accommodations
               207,824 Life Support (/Ty:St,Ex /St)
                     3 G-Comp
                   500 Sandcasters (/AV:40 /Cans:30)
                   500 Damper Screen (800WM)
                  1500 Meson Screen (7,200MW)
              90 [600] Armor
                    59 Structure

Weaponry
 1,750xBeam MFD (0MW, 500,000km)
 750xMissile MFD (0MW, 500,000km)
 750xLight Laser (+4) 1/2-0-0-0 [1,200/23-11-6-3] (LR)
 500xMedium Laser (+4) 1/3-2-0-0 [1,100/40-33-17-8] (LR)
 250xLaser Bay (+4) 1/7-7-6-4 [2,400/61-61-46-23] (LR)
 125xLaser Cannon (+4) 1/7-7-7-6 [2,400/61-61-61-56] (LR)
 750xLight Missile Auto 2/1 (/Mag:4)
  w/46 Command DetLaser 1d6/2 6G12 500,000km
 250xHeavy Missile Auto 4/4 (/Mag:120 /MFD:500,000km)
  w/124 CommandDetLaser 2d6/3 [113] 3.7G10 500,000km
 20xParticle Cannon (+4) 2/11-11-11-11 [1,200/400-400-400-400] (LR)
 1xMeson Cannon (+4) 2/17-16-12-10 [1,100/2500-2083-1042-421] (LR)

Features
 8,000xAirlock
 1,000xDecontamination Airlock
 100xDocking Umbilical
 1,000xElectronics Shop (6std ea.)
 1,000xMachine Shop (10std ea.)
 100xLaboratory (8std ea.)
 1,000xSickbay (8std ea.)
 10xShip's Locker (450std ea.)
 310xPrisoner Capacity (200/100/10)
 4xArmory( 17.86std ea.)
 500xGym (2.5 std ea.)
 100xOrdinary Galley (Cap:2,220)
 100xFull Galley (Cap:377)

Small Craft
 50xMinimal Hangar for 50std craft (4 hatches)
 400xMinimal Hangar for 40std craft (0 hatches)
 4xLaunch Tubes for 40std craft

Backups
 Communications: 3xRadio (1000AU), 3xLaser (1000AU)
 Sensors: 2xPEMS (15 [500mkm]). 2xAEMS (13 [16mkm])
 Survey: 1xDensiometer (9 [500km]). 2xNeutrino (9.5 [1600km]).
 ECM: 1xArea Jammer (13). 1xDeceptive Jammer (14). 1xPas. Jammer(16).
 Power: Fusion (75,000MW).

Crew Details
 12xMnvr. 234xElec. 13,381xEngr. 2,091xMain. 4,283xGunn. 640xScrn.
 600xFlgt. 500xTrps. 3,623xCmnd. 893xStew. 209xMed.

- -- 
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Andrew Akins                                                       |
| Home: igor@ames.net - http://www.ames.net/igor/                    |
| Work: andya@cms-gt.com - http://www.cms-gt.com/                    |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+
| May your villages remain ignorant of tax collectors, and may your  |
| sons be many and ugly and strong and willing workers, and may your |
| daughters be few and beautiful and excellent providers of love     |
| gifts from eminent families that live very far away, and may your  |
| lives be blessed by the beauty that has touched mine.              |
|                    - Number Ten Ox, "Bridge of Birds"              |
+--------------------------------------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:48:01 EST
From: FKiesche <FKiesche@aol.com>
Subject: More on Imperial Squadrons

Greetings:

Oh oh...

One of the tables in Imperial Squadrons talks about anti-piracy!

RUN! 

DUCK!

TAKE COVER!

I hear the rumblings of much debate being readied...

(insert large and silly looking grin icon here...)

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:03:05 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Near-C Rocks (Used to be:  Re: Virus and TNE)

[snip]
>
>Next Question:
>
>How much of this world's Sun's energy will be blocked by this cloud >of 
sand, and how will that affect the climate and habitability of the
>world?
>
>Of course, if the population had to choose between being pulverized >by 
a near-c rock and slowly freezing to death...
>

Forgive ignorance.  near-c rock?

S/f
Greg

The Count
montecristo@hotmail.com

______________________________________________________
Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:47:59 EST
From: FKiesche <FKiesche@aol.com>
Subject: Imperial Squadrons (the pipeline is open?)

Greetings All:

Well, got Imperial Squadrons in the mail today. Looks like a winner, the
design team is Tim Brown, Stuart L. Dollar, Joseph E. Walsh with additional
design by Doug Berry. 

Artwork is by Foss (cover and some interior) plus Steve Bryant and Stephen
Danieli. 

The credits indicate "Imperial Squadrons is based on Fifth Frontier War,
designed by Marc W. Miller and originally published by Game Desingers'
Workshop". Upon first glance, it seems to owe some ancestry to High Guard as
well...

Hey! A big improvement! Tables in the text!

As the Table of Contents was already listed here, I'll pass on listing it
again.

Now the downside: Still no Emperors' Vehicles order! Still no Naval
Architect's order! Many e-mails have been sent to IG and only two replies have
been sent back...so the problem persists.

And: Still no Citizens of the Imperium! It's nearly January 1998, which would
make it a year since the January 1997 release date and a half year since the
July 1997 second release date (and the time I was charged). I think IG ought
to give it up and credit us all who were charged or had checks cashed. Can you
say "vaporware"?

Shave the whales!

Fred Kiesche
(FKiesche@aol.com)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:00:06 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Plastic Surgery (was Re: Technological Conservatism)

>>TL 8-9:
>>
>>Moderate Plastic Surgery, early body-sculpting, basic disguises. The
>>surgery is undetectable, but limited, disguises are imperfect unless 
>>the individuals are very similar.  [No height modifications, +/- up 
>>to 10 kg]. 
>
>Aha, I guess you've never seen Face/Off!!!  If they can do it in a 
>movie, they can do it in real life :)
>
>In all seriousness a very cool post.  I will clip it and save it.
>

I agree.  These kind of posts, when linked together, give a much broader 
view of how things may progress.  I like it!  Can't wait to get those 
Zho-supported Sword Worlders into disguises!  What fun!

Think of the technologies/techniques/procedures that would be necessary 
to uncover a disguised individual!  No disguise is *perfect* meaning 
there must be some way of discovering the truth.  The Imp Secret Service 
will have their hands full!

S/f
Greg

The Count
MonteCristo@hotmail.com


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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 10:50:49 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Defend Against Virus (Was Re: What is virus ?)

At 09:16 AM 12/5/97 PST, you wrote:

>? How did he know it was coming?  

Once the Virus was loose, it was fairly evident that something was zotting
every computer with a connection to the outside world.  Frantic messages
went out Telling people to disconnect their systems form the net.  Archduke
Norris just acted quickly enough to save much of his realm. Note that they
did have to surrender half of Deneb.

>? How, in the time it takes to travel across jump space, did word get to 
>him before the virus, and he have a chance to establish the quarantine?

Naval Couriers, traveling across the Great Rift using the secret refueling
stations seen in -Arrival Vengence-.
  
>? Did they have a jump-6 dead zone where anything jumping in was 
>destroyed due to radio/transponder/communication silence?

In most places it appears the buffer zone is about 3-4 parsecs.  The
Regency Navy did deep sweeps of systems beyond that zone, looking for
Vampires.

>Thanks for helping me piece it together.  

You might look for The Regency Sourcebook (GDW 0314) in the used bin at
your FLGS.. It has a great deal of information about how the Regency
survived along with being one of the best sourcebooks for the Spinward
Marches region ever produced.
- --
+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:00:45 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Behemoth class dreadnaught

At 11:37 AM 12/5/97 -0600, you wrote:
>To test out my FF&S2 spreadsheet (good thing to, I found some
>bugs...looks like 1.6 will have to be made...) I designed the following
>ship. I did this in about 45 minutes, so I didn't give it a lot of
>thought. Thus, it might not be a tactically sound design. But hey, it
>sure does make an impression :)
>
>Behemoth class Dreadnaught
>Designed by Andrew Akins

<snip>

This is obscene! terrible! A crime against nature!

Gridlore Technolgies will take three, do they come in light blue?

Great design.. are the weapon ranges 30k or 300k?


- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:32:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Roving Gearheads -- ARRGH!

On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Anders Backman wrote:

> What! Is VDS out? In pdf only or is there a paper version as well?
> I'll check BTRC webpage NOW.

I didn't find it on BTRC's site.  Try HyperBooks Online:

http://www.hyperbooks.com/


Clark

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 11:46:51 PST
From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

>My point was that there are many sciences that are becoming extremely 
>well advanced in the modern, real world that leaving them out
>entirely becomes a gaping hole.  It was a question to see if there
>was some deeper reason that these disciplines were being largely
>ignored.  I wasn't around when battledress was introduced into the
>Trav universe, but did people say, "Hey, Trav shouldn't be like
>Starship Troopers!" when it was?

Battledress made the LBB....and so did Grav Tanks (when book 4 came out)

>Okay, maybe they were going for a "hard-science" feel, but now I know 
>that you missed the point of my message.  Genetic engineering exists 
>today and is actually used and is pretty advanced.  Sheep have been 
>cloned and stabilized.  Baboons have been cloned and died shortly 
>thereafter.  

Yes and look at all the discussions about the wisdom/morality involved 
in cloning sheep.  Some areas could very easily dead end because they 
are considered taboo, and by agreement stay that way.  Stuff like the 
"6MCr man/woman" may become commonplace as prosthetic devices and the 
thread of plastic surgery indicate.

>We have algae that can eat oil to help clean up slicks in the ocean. 
>Yet, genetic engineering gets only passing coverage in Traveller.  
>Nanotechnology exists.  There is alot of money being pumped into the 
>discipline, and alot of research is being done.  The japanese have 
>actually turned out some of the tiny critters already.

I don't know much about nanotech, to won't comment....

>Computer science is quite real and is advancing at a rapid pace, the 
>same with electronics.

Yes, and look at how far we've come and how fast!  But as was pointed 
out, maybe we hit the maximum level that we can in the not-to-distant 
future, (like ballooning) until someone comes along and says.... I think 
we CAN fly, I'm going to build an airplane!

Keep coming up with good ideas and put them out on the list!  Then we 
can discuss em!

Greg Smith

The Count 
MonteCristo@hotmail.com

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------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 11:46:12 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: Milleu: 2100 TL-9 (no CG) heavy cargo lifter.

[Note: this is for a Milleu: 2100 that assumes Terra didn't have contra-grav
in any form until after contact with the Vilani. This is vaguely non-canon
but not decisevly so - and I would strongly recommend it for a 2100
campaign; it makes things much more interesting and different from "mainstream"
Traveller.]

Boeing 937-200 RHLV cargo lifter.

Hull: 100 ton short rounded cylinder, hypersonic SL
Volume: 1400 m3
Mass (Loaded/Unloaded) 271.9/ 35.5 tonnes
Price: MCr 342.7

Armour: AV 1 (Light Composites), stressed for 4 G
Maneuver Drives: HDLiquid Rocket (3G)
			59.5 m3 Perox fuel; 1 km/s delta-V plus 2 minutes hover
                 Gas-Core NTR (0.37G)
			960 m3 LH fuel; 0.22 hours duration, 9 km/s delta-V
		 Total delta-V 10 km/s (0.28 G-hours)	 
Power: 0.16 MW fuel cell, 0.51 m3 HGHCD fuel (24 hours at 0.07 MW normal 
	output)
Computer/Controls: 2x1.0 Flight Computer (0.004 MW). 
		   Computer Linked Controls (0.05 MW)
Crew: 2 (Pilot, Co-pilot/electronics operator), normal crew statitons
Communications: 50,000 km radio (0.09 MW)
Sensors: 50 km (sensitivity 11) IR scanner
         160 km (sensitivity 8) Radar (0.005 MW)
Life Support: Level 3 (standard), 0.005 MW; duration limited by available power
	to 24 hours.

Passengers: 8, cramped seats (seats remove to add 20m3 of cargo volume but
	effectively no cargo weight.)
Cargo: 171.5 m3, 85.8 tonnes

Fittings: Minimal Airlock

The Boeing 937 was introduced in 2070 AD to take advantage of the
recently-developed gas-core nuclear rocket; the 937-200 is a "stretched"
version, introduced in 2079, which rapidly becamse the standard heavy-lift
vehicle in the solar system. It can carry 86 tonnes of cargo from anywhere
on the Earth's surface to low or medium earth orbit and back - 
and with an equatorial launch it can even carry a significant payload to
geostationary orbit. 

The 937 uses two seperate rocket systems for different flight regimes.
Nuclear rockets provide very high exhaust velocities (or ISP), which makes
them very fuel-efficient, but they also have very low thrust-to-weight, and
are extremely expensive; designing a NTR-based ship with enough thrust
for initial takeoff is very challenging.
The 937 instead uses a peroxide-burning conventional rocket for initial 
takeoff and altitude gain. Once the rocket has run out of fuel the 937
is at sufficient altitude that the low-acceleration NTR can complete 
the orbital burn before the 937 falls back to earth. This had the 
added advantage of confining all NTR burns to the upper atmosphere - although
NTR exhaust is non-radioactive, safety concerns would still be problematic
for a nuclear liftoff from a developed site.

Once it has delivered its cargo, the craft de-orbits and carries out a nose-
first re-entry, flying as a lifting body. As it approaches its landing site
it lights the rocket engines again and pitches into a nose-up attitude, then
hovers and lands vertically. The 937 can be refuelled, serviced and launched
again the next day. (The appearance is somewhat similar to the late-20th-
century "DC-X" vehicle.) Although the vehicle is extremely expensive, 
this rapid turnaround and low support requirements bring the overall
cost per flight down to ~ Cr 400,000; typical 937 operators charge 
Cr 5000/tonne for cargo to low earth orbit and Cr 1000/tonne for return 
cargo. The 937-200 is not
optimized for passenger transport, although it does have 8 extra
passenger seats in a compartment behind the flight deck. The 937-300P
variant carries 350 passengers and no cargo, for a per-passenger charge
of Cr 500 to or from LEO. 

In the late 21st century the main rivals of the 937 were the LockMart
AeroStar airbreathing spaceplane - which had a much lower cargo capacity
but dominated the passenger and suborbital markets - and the 
Herbert BDB-1000 expendable, although many smaller launch vehicles 
also figured prominently in the lower-mass launch market. All were 
rendered completely obsolete by the introduction of contra-gravity
after contact with the Vilani. Some 937s were refitted with contragrav
drives but most were scrapped. However, for 30 years the squat and loud
937 was the first step on the ladder to the stars - nearly every Earth-
assembled component of Mankind's first starship was launched to orbit on a
937, and the first exploration starships carried modified 937s as cargo
landers.

Designer's notes:
A while ago I posted some aerospace shuttle TL-9 designs. They were based
on FFS1, which had unreaslistically low fuel consumptions (though also
thrust-to-weight) for rocket engines; they wouldn't work under FFS2's
more realistic engine rules. (At some point I may revisit the designs;
I think I can probably get ~10-20 tonnes of cargo out of a 100 dTon aerospace
shuttle. AZHRAE engines are still somewhat messed up in FFS2.)

However, FFS2 does have all sort of exotic new engine types, so I decided
to try and design a reuseable vertical-takeoff-vertical-landing with the
nuclear rockets. I quickly learned that NTRs are painfully expensive and
have painfully low thrust-to-weight; I could barely design something
that could get off the pad with any cargo at all. However, the hybrid
approach works very well. I didn't precisely model the trajectory - 
possibly the vehicle really needs more Perox fuel and a slightly higher
NTR acceleration - but it's generally in the right ballpark, and has
plenty of surplus NTR delta-V (typical delta-V from Kennedy to LEO is 
about 9 km/s.) 

II used my own spreadsheet rather than Andrew's, since this is a complicated 
and finiky design. I used Excel's "Solver" to optimize the design - 
letting it automatically
tweak the NTR and HD rocket thrusts and fuel tankage to minimize cost-per-
tonne to orbit, subject to the required delta-V and acceleration constraints.
I highly recommend using "Solver" or at least "Goal Seek" to low-tech
designers - it seems to do a good job of tweaking multiple parameters
to find near-optimal solutions. 

There's still some room for tweaking - possibly I should have made
the cargo hold smaller for a given cargo mass, and the passenger seats
are really kind of gratuitous. Still, it provides a good baseline for
low-tech lifters. In a mainstream Traveller campaing, though, these will
almost never be encountered - contra-grav is orders of magnitude more
efficient.

Bruce Macintosh

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 14:57:45 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Postulated tech

Does anybody read the DC comic "Transmetropolitan"?

This is a superb science fiction near future setting, best SF I have seen in
ages, any media

They have a device that can make anything (called a maker, how ironic). To
get the full use of a maker one uses slabs of a superdense matter (not
defined as of yet) or just garbage at a severe drop in efficiency. Upper
class people use the SD slabs, the middle class scrounges garbage from the
poor (as using a maker eliminates garbage, because you never need packages)
and the poor get poorer

There are restaurants that can make any food you want, so new fads are ideas
for food (the main character, Spider Jerusalem, loves reindeer eyes)

Because waste can be used to make stuff, garbage is virtually eliminated.
The only decay is ennui

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:00:34 EST
From: GypsyComet <GypsyComet@aol.com>
Subject: Singularity (was Technological Conservatism)

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) says:

>AI & cybernetics lead to the Singularity (Read Vinge's "Marooned in
>Realtime" to get an idea of what that would involve). 

  This was just recently reprinted with its prequel "Peace War" and
the short "The Ungoverned" as the book "Across Realtime". "The
Ungoverned" is the tale of how all the bad blood around the hero
of "Marooned..." got started.

  Vernor Vinge apologizes in the afterword for slowing technological
advancement down so he could develop a timeline long enough to hang
a plot in. Sound familiar?

GypsyComet

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 13:32:20 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Defend Against Virus (Was Re: What is virus ?)

On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Greg Smith wrote:

> ? How did he know it was coming?  
> ? How, in the time it takes to travel across jump space, did word get to 
> him before the virus, and he have a chance to establish the quarantine?  
> ? Did they have a jump-6 dead zone where anything jumping in was 
> destroyed due to radio/transponder/communication silence?
> 

Well, he  had the advantage of the Rift being his only front open to the
imperium. Borders to the north were either different tech, Zhodani or
Aslan, which was slower to succumb to Virus, or contained by Vargr ships
moving in to the imperium. (Infected Vargr ships tended to continue going
in towards the inner imperium)

He was warned by a desperate naval crew who jumped into a system,
immediately bailed out of their infected ship and triggered a jury rigged
self destruct.

The quarantine went into effect very quickly after that.

You wouldn't be the same Greg Smith who was my DM in the Alice Springs D&D
campaign here in Tucson so many years ago, would you? RounD about '80-'81? 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 15:52:49 -0500
From: Robert Flammang <flammang@npl2.phyast.pitt.edu>
Subject: Near-C Rocks (Used to be:  Re: Virus and TNE)

>
   Hi.
   
> From: Glenn Hoppe <starcity@sk.sympatico.ca>
   
> Robert Flammang wrote:
   [snip]
>>    The problem would be getting enough sand around a mainworld.  To place
>>    a 0.1-g/cm^2 shell at 100 diameters from an earthlike world would
>>    require 2.0E+19 kg of sand.  That's 1 300,000th the mass of the earth!
   [snip]
   
> How much of this world's Sun's energy will be blocked by this cloud of
> sand, and how will that affect the climate and habitability of the
> world?
   
   Practically all of the sunlight will be blocked.  It will be very
   dark.  As bad as Pittsburgh in winter, or worse!
   
> Of course, if the population had to choose between being pulverized by a
> near-c rock and slowly freezing to death...
   
   But...  any civilization with the energy to put that much sand into
   orbit will certainly have no trouble warming up its planet.  (In fact,
   it may just have a bigger problem /cooling down/ its planet!  That
   sort of energy usually makes quite a bit of waste heat. 8^)
   
   [and]
   
> From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
> I don't think you need the shell to be out at 100 diameters. The Earth's
> atmosphere is sufficiently opaque to X-rays that they won't be a problem; I
> think it would be similarly opaque to slow neutrons. You don't even need to
> slow down the rock's protons and electrons to harmless energies; if you 
> convert a solid rock into a expanding cloud of vapour/plasma the vapour/plasma
> won't make it through the atmosphere either. So you probably don't need
> 0.1 gm/cm^2 either - just one grain big enough to vapourize the rock per
> rock-surface-area-unit.
   
   You're probably right about the shell being needlessly large.  But it
   probably can't be much thinner. (Remember, in my original post I
   assumed the rock would be completely dissociated.)  If it's much
   thinner than 0.034 grams per square centimeter it will allow a beam
   (bolt?) of plasma to travel through with almost the same direction as
   the original rock and which will strike the planet's atmosphere all at
   once.  Sure, it won't penetrate it, but it will drop a heck of a lot
   of photons at one time.  Boom!
   
   [and]
   
> From: "Greg Smith" <montecristo@hotmail.com>
> Forgive ignorance.  near-c rock?
   
   Near-c rock = A planetoid traveling at near light speed.  Speed of
   light = c.  Actually, I'm talking about a rock at 0.1c, 10% the speed
   of light.  At 0.9c, you'd need a shell considerably thicker than 0.034
   grams/cm^2 --- more like 1 kilogram/cm^2.
   
   But at very high c you have another effect helping out the defender:
   nuclear reactions.  In my original post I stated that that I assumed
   complete dissociation of the rock.  There was another assumption that
   I did not state --- no nuclear reactions occurring between the rock and
   the sand.  At 0.1c, the fraction of the rock's atoms undergoing
   nuclear reactions with the sand will be miniscule, less than 0.1%.  At
   higher energies, a higher percentage of the rock's matter will undergo
   nuclear reactions.  Those nuclei that do react will /scatter/, and
   Bruce's dispersed cloud model will become a reality.  The rock will
   become diffuse enough that the planet can easily absorb the blow.
   
   Calculating the fraction of the rock's energy lost to nuclear
   reactions depends on the rock's speed and the thickness of the sand
   cloud, and it is just a little too complicated for me to justify doing
   right now.  A 0.9c rock slamming into 1 kg/cm^2 of sand will have
   99.99% of its nuclei undergoing nuclear reactions with the sand, so
   presumable you don't need quite all that sand to make the rock
   harmless, but I can't tell you off hand just how much you would need.
   

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2149
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Traveller-digest     Friday, December 12 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2150



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Recoil experiments
Universal Corporate Profile
Re: Letter from IG
Re: Suggestion * Traveller Virtual Archive
In jokes in IS
Re : PMPP field-testing
Re: ping!
Re: Testing 123...
Re: Near C rock fix proposal
Re: Virus and patchable computers
Re: near-c rock fix proposal
Re: Behemoth class Dreadnaught (surface area)
Re: KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK!!!
Re: Virus and patchable computers
Re: "Aliens" are bioweapons?.......
Hmm.
Re: Letter from IG
Re: Letter from Imperium Games
Re: Testing 123...
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2144 (fwd)
Re: List HQ -- Status  Update
Journal es muerto
Re: Tiny particles = tiny weapons

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:51:24 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Recoil experiments

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> This is definitely a feasible technology for even fairly high-recoil
> weapons, and, I suspect, even for use by bipeds with (grossly) external
> genitalia.  Why the hell hasn't anyone worked on developing this before???
> If any members of the TML (preferrably physiologically male and/or more
> experienced judges of firearm recoil) would volunteer as test subjects,
> perhaps we could further extend the frontiers of Science.

 Ok, I think we add this to the test list for the siege engine comp. But I'll
need
signed release forms for the video and pics. Oh, you will have to provide a
test subject, if can't some clannie to volunteer.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Yuppie Hunter of the Forgotten Surf
 Fortalice Desertum
 AD. 1997

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 23:04:56 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Universal Corporate Profile

Over on the ISBA list the concept of a Universal Corporate Profile is being
discussed. If anybody's interested, the work done so far is on the web at

http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/trav/ucp.htm

The site needs to be upgraded to take account of the latest ideas.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 12:03:00 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Letter from IG

douglas wrote:
> 
> Sooooo....
> 
> Are there any other magazines supporting T4 - i.e. bringing new ideas for equipment and adventures to the
> majority of GMs who are NOT represented on this list?
> 
> Seems that there may just be an opportunity here...  ;)
> 

Idea: How about putting our money where our mouth is and create a
TML-based Fanzine? To be marketed around the world (BITS: any interest?)

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:58:15 +0100
From: "V.A.G" <grei5001@uni-trier.de>
Subject: Re: Suggestion * Traveller Virtual Archive

> 
> All you have to do is add the category names to your
> Traveller pages, as META tags (for example).  I suppose
> the keywords might also have to be in the page title
> or header, yes?
> 
> There might be one hurdle.  We might have to decide on
> category names.  However, I hope this won't really be
> much of a problem.
> 
> Opinions, suggestions?

Use MegaTraveller as a metatag for all page (Mega, CT or TNE alike), 
as MegaTraveller is unlikely to be used in another context.

Categories would include anything with the prefix Trav.
Examples:
TravTech
TravAliens
TravAncients
TravShips
TravWorlds
TravCampaign
TravAdventure
etc.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 13 Dec 1997 00:30:35 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: In jokes in IS

>Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:43:16 -0500
>From: "Chris Cox" <chriscox@ix.netcom.com>
>Subject: Fw: Traveller ships and Imperial Squadrons

>>By the way.. a near-C cookie to the first person to figure out the joke
>>behind the name of the Bass Straight DE.  Craig already knows, so he's
>>diqualified.

>I not so sure it's a good idea to be using too many of the jokes and/or 20th
>century references in Traveller products, after all you do recall how some
>people "loved" "Aliens of the Rim" for just this reason 8^)
>(and no I didn't get the joke, unless its just a combination of bass akwards
>and danm straght, but do appreciate the fact that it is there
>nonetheless)

It would have anything to do with a certain "native title" argument ongoing
at the moment would it?

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 21:33:46
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Re : PMPP field-testing

Kengi,

I just have three questions ...

(1) are you going to Arisia ?

(2) do you live in or near San Francisco ?

and (3) would a PMPP have static electric effects from the intense magnetic
fields ... I am kind of thinking purple wand, but a lot lot lot worse.

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:47:08 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: ping!

In mail you write:

> Are we live yet!

No. 

This is a recording....

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:50:25 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Testing 123...

In mail you write:

> Bruce Johnson wrote:
>
>>will my message bounce back to me??
>>
>><Poof> you're a hamster!
>
>         Pro: my girlfriend just loves small round furry animals...
>
>         Con: we have three cats :).

That's what the exercise balls are for. Cat's confronted with a rodent
inside one get this *really* strange look on their face. And if the
critter isn't overly excitable, it will even *enjoy* being a cat toy.
(I had a friend with a gerbil that got put in the exercise ball when
the cat was around. They got along fine.)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:54:24 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Near C rock fix proposal

In mail you write:

> Rod Elliot wrote
>>Greg Smith wrote:
>>>Forgive ignorance.  near-c rock?
>
> There is a simple solution, though it plays hell with entropy and
> potential energy - create some handwave that explains why the rock does not
> gather as much kinetic energy as it should.  Depending on the quality of
> your handwave, you can have all sorts of results.
>
> My personal favorite is that the thruster plate drive actually reduces the
> inertial mass of an object, and that it is the reduced inertial mass which
> is so easy to move.  This works fine in most cases, but leads to two
> questions:

But it's still possible to build the 1000 km massdriver in the Oort
cloud and boost nickel/iron "rocks" to 1.5% of c. That only takes cheap
fusion power and the Famile Spofulam design team. :-)

On the other hand, they *are* "small" (few ton) rocks.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 11 Dec 1997 23:59:58 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Virus and patchable computers

In mail you write:

> That said, here is an example from real life, presented just as "reality 
> fuel"
>
> Designers can protect a system against all kinds of threats, and may add
> configurability for usability reasons, but if they miss an application of
> usability for security breaking, then they have a hole, and one which may
> not be easily fixable.  EEPROMS, for example, are terribly convenient,
> unless they can be used to make the system un fixable without a soldering
> iron.
>
> Note: I witnessed the following event personally.

<snip of stupid programmer trick :-)>

Well, there's a "simpler" way to screw the owner of a system that uses
EEPROMs or EAROMs. Such devices have a limited number of writes.

The later members of the Tandy 1000 line used EEPROMs for storing setup
info. And there *were* cases recorded of system failure due to people
changing the settings too many times!

So you can sabotage the system by merely writing a "virus" that updates
the EEPROM with unusable code and keeps writing it until the EEPROM
won't update anymore. Easiest way is to just write something like all
the same byte except for the correct checksum. Then just cycle through
the possible byte values until a read gets the old values. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:41:32 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: near-c rock fix proposal

In mail you write:

> THe maneuver-drive-decreases-mass thing (reminiscent of E.E. Smith) gets
> into all sorts of odd "what happens when you switch it off" questions,
> and "what happens when you launch a fighter"and "what happens when you
> stick your arm out the window" and "what happens when photons from
> enemy lasers enter the field", etc. It's possible to make it work, but
> it changes the flavour a lot.

True. But it might be fun to work out who an "inertialess" drive (even
one less than 100% efficient) would work. After all, the Arisians may
be out there somewhere. :-)

One thing that Smith got "right" was the decision to decouple
gravitational mass (the M in F=GMM/R^2) and inertial mass (the mass
in F=MA). That makes things easier. For one, it means you *do* have to
supply the energy for the change in potential energy as you move around
in various gravity fields.

And as for what's left, well, it would seem to work out ok. The classic
case of 100% inertialess has you resuming your original vector at the
point you turn off the drive.

For partial neutralization, I'm not entirely clear how you'd work it.
Probably by applying the vector the drive gave your (lowered) mass to
your original vector, both adjusted for the amount of neutralization.

I *think* that'd be
(Orig_vector*percent_neutralized)+(new_vector*percent_not_neutralized).

This would *definitely* change things.

Sticking your arm out of the field would be messy, as it'd act like the
drive had been cut... RIPPP! 

Photons entering the field should either be unaffected, or be
refracted. I think we want unaffected for Traveller. For a "Lensman"
type universe, I'd go for refracted, with the speed *increasing* inside
the field, with 100% giving "infinite" velocity (and thus explaining
how a "free" ship could exceed lightspeed.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 00:25:43 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Behemoth class Dreadnaught (surface area)

In mail you write:

> Since the server seems to have gone down before this reply got through,
> I'm going to send it again.  Apologies if you get it twice.
>
> On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Leonard Erickson wrote:
>
>> > On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Clark Crawford wrote:
>> >
>> > Haven't seen a rule saying that you can't add material to the hull for 
> the
>> > purpose of increasing its area -- it seems logical.
>> 
>> True, but it isn't as easy as you'd think. 
>> 
>> Since the hull is in a vacuum, that means that any added surface area
>> that can "see" any other area of the hull is *wasted* to the extent
>> that it sees the other part of the hull. This is because the radiated
>> heat would just get picked back up by that other part of the hull.
>
> Good point -- I missed that.  Do you think we could use ridged surfaces
> for radiators?  The ridges are angled 45 degrees to the plane of the hull,
> 90 degrees to one another (or more, to account for diffracted rays).  All
> the ridge planes that don't have a normal line intersecting some other
> part of the ship can be used for radiators.  If the hull is carefully
> designed (by our Imperial architect characters), we will not have any
> wastage of the bonus area gained from the ridges.

But you will. 

      \            /
        \        /
          \    /
            \/  

The above isn't all *that* accurate, but with a 90 degree angle, you
lose *half* the possible "sky" until you get to an angle where the
"ray" misses the "facing" radiator.

The radiation pattern is a *hemisphere* at any given point on the
radiator. In the center this works out as a plane wave. but at the
*edges* it doesn't.

It turns out that radiators joined at any angle *other* than 180
degrees lose *some* efficiency.
>
>> So the added area has to be things like "fins" running the length of
>> the hull (don't forget to count the area of *both* sides). But you
>> can't have more than 4 of them or you are back to the "facing each
>> other" problem.

I goofed here. 4 is better than a larger number, and 3 is better than
4, but *2* is the best answer. So you have 4, and only *use* two two on
opposite sides at any given time.

> We can probably get away with only one fin in many cases, if the ridge
> technique can be used.  Other convolutions (narrowing, elongation,
> flattening) can also be used, either alone or in conjunction with the
> ridge technique, although I would not go so far as to modify the hull
> length formula.  We could come up with a pretty simple standard formula
> for increased surface area based on the geometry of the ridges, assuming
> they are used to replace a "flat" hull region of arbitrary dimensions.  Or
> we could just "fudge" it, to account for infinite variation in ridge size.

Again, the ridge idea is *less* efficient than a "flat" hull. It may
help to consider the sum of all individual points radiating. You do
this by (in effect) placing a compass set for a given radius at each
point on the surface of the radiator (in cross section) and drawing an
arc. The sum of the arcs is the wave front. The farther out from the
hull you get, the closer the wavefront come to the one you'd get
*without* the ridges.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:15:26 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: KNOCK KNOCK KNOCK!!!

On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> Semo wrote:
> 
> >Hello, hello, is there anybody in there?
> >Just nod if you can hear me.
> >Is there anyone at home?
> 
> Hey!  Are we back?  When the list first disappeared, I thought it was the
> wrath of Grandfather for my smarting off to Harold Hale about _Aliens 4_ --
> which message apparently never got delivered, anyway <G>.  So I've been
> forced to amuse myself by designing Aliens(tm) sushi and recoil simulation
> tests for pelvic-mounted firearms.  Details will follow unless cyberwrath
> intervenes.

I thought some Secret Service rushed into the MPGN Office and withheld 
all material on the lists as they did with Steve Jackson Games.

Or MJ-12 misinterpreted some posting about the Hive ...

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:35:17 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: Virus and patchable computers

On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Scott Ellsworth wrote:

[sniped by the sniper]

> I do think there is a problem with it making anything much below TL14 self
> aware, because that makes the "AI is TL 17" rule less sensible, but this is
> a different argument.
> 
> NB, I do not like the Virus for game play reasons, which is why I do not
> use it, but the core idea of a secret war weapon computer virus that could
> infect high tech systems and infiltrate in a malicious way does not seem
> out of line.
> 

I think of virus in a quite other way. I still do not play with it, as my 
group is not in the new era (yet). But I liked the idea to bring one of 
it once into the campaign, not as weapon, but as character.
I think some way further into the new era timeline. What if Virus begins 
to build an own alliance/confederation/imperium? There was the 'mother' 
type virus, which not fights but protects its crew. (Seems to be a kind 
of LEXX ...) The possibility of virus as NPC (or even PC) could lead to a 
fine plot device, but you must not overuse it ...
I am sure, this would change the fabric of the Traveller Universe quite a 
lot, but the future still is not written.

> 
> This is a truth, and affects all game designers.  Unfortunately, unless you
> provide a consistent background, players have trouble reacting, and if you
> do, then you run that risk.  My game, like many here, has this a lot,
> because all of use are computer types, and we have two physicists and two
> mathematicians playing, thus they are very good at working the system.
> 
Tell me more, I lead a group of chemists. I know that situation, but I 
managed to tone the science discussions down (for the sake of the two 
non-scientist players of the group), as I don't refer to it myself that 
often.

> Referring to another thread, this is why I kind of like the technological
> conservativism in Traveller - it makes it possible to keep things under
> some level of control.  I have a small chance of guessing what people are
> going to use the cool tech for.
> 
Not even to guess what the GM uses the ideas for ...

Greetings from L.A.

How many ways are there to solve the problem? -
Always one more than the GM thinks of.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 13:42:23 +0100 (MET)
From: Lars Adler <adler@hartree.pc.Uni-Koeln.DE>
Subject: Re: "Aliens" are bioweapons?.......

> > Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:49:57 -0600
> > From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
> 
> > 	You know, I've always been a little disappointed by the direction
> > the series took after Aliens.  When you think about it, the Aliens are a
> > little too... tailored to prey on humanity than random natural selection in
> > separate ecologies should reasonably allow.  If you were setting out to
> > design a critter to deal with humans, it'd be hard to come up with better.
> > 
> > 	Were I to have been writing the series, it would have turned up
> > that the critters were bioweapons to begin with...  some rather
>                          ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> > non-confrontational but decidedly hostile ETs just cooked them up, left
> > them where humans would be sure to find them, and sat back to watch the
> > fireworks.
> > 
That's how I saw it all the time. It is not logical that a devastating 
lifeform like the Alien evolves to such a high state on a natural way.
It would have destroyed all of its environment long before reaching a 
standard that high. I always supposed it was a weapon created by the 
alien pilot's race (or his enemies). That the humans are that good fodder 
for them can be explained that Alien was designed to prey upon a wide 
variety of different life forms. So the humans are not a special form, 
only one of much.

L.A.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:12:55 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Hmm.

Are you sure that the server wasn't brought down by the Templars to stop
the Near-C rock and Virus threads?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:15:55 -0400
From: "Alan M. Nuss" <amnuss@earthlink.net>
Subject: Re: Letter from IG

I also got a letter from IG, but it states that they "will not be
supporting the Citizens of
the Imperium organization."

Alan

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:22:54 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Letter from Imperium Games

Doug Berry wrote:

>I'd go for that $2000 book, sounds like a winner.  :)

Did you know that it is "Starships" printed on gold leaf? ;-)

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 11:26:50 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Testing 123...

Douglas <douglas@teleport.com> wrote:

>On Thu, 11 Dec 1997, Bruce Johnson wrote:
>> will my message bounce back to me??
>> <Poof> you're a hamster!
>
>Someone remember to feed Bruce, and clean his cage! ;D

And give him something to chew on to keep his teeth in tip top condition.....

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 06:49:17 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2144 (fwd)

Eaten by the disk crash...:

On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Larry Hadley wrote: (regarding Virus and e-mailed
ones)

 >    Examples, please.
> 
>    The only occurance of such that I know of, is the infamous "Word
> virus" that allegedly spreads itself through email. As anyone that knows
> anything about computers already knows, that isn't really  a virus - it's
> actually a Trojan and does not contain any real executable code. It also
> requires a very specific application to be installed on the target
> computer and does NOT replicate itself. (a key requirement for true virii)

Ok, lets dissect this one a little bit...

A) Macro viruses _DO_ contain executable code, most are merely
content to spread themselves around, but MS Word basic does have the
ability to get out there and mess with the file system. Examples that do
disrupt the 'host' are rare, for the simple reason that messing with a
Win95 host usually means the standard "nuke and reinstall" response to
virtually any Win95 problem. This means, essentially that the virus
'kills' it's host before it gets a chance to spread. This is one
reason that most computer viruses actually do damage very rarely, so
as to enable them to spread.

B) ALL computer viruses require 'a very specific application' to be
installed on the target computer, it's called 'the operating system'.
This is why current computer viruses (with one exception) are OS specific.
There are Mac viruses (37 of them) Unix viruses (two or three), Apple II
viruses (probably the earliest viruses written and released into the wild,
circa 1977 or so), and all the hordes of MS-DOS viruses. There are a few
Windows and Windows95 specific viruses.

Because, by definition, the OS is a program you are running all the time,
in the background, you 'open' regular viruses just like you open a Word
document, which either invalidates your definition of viruses, by making
them _all_ trojans (you have to execute code to have them function) or
macro viruses are indeed viruses. 

The example I used, of having my system set up to recognize and open word
documents automatically, when encountered in e-mail or web browsing makes
them essentially, the same as any other computer virus...when encountered
under the right conditions, it automatically infects your system.

Macro virii are the only _non OS specific_ viruses existing, in that they
can infect Word and Excel on both platforms they run on. (ThankYEW Unca'
Billy...in one fell swoop the virus population that could infect a Mac
went from 37 to thousands...) 

C) They sure as hell replicate themselves!!!! Once you get one on your
system, every document you create or open gets infected with the macro
code. This is how we're seeing the main transmission of the virus. Hell,
we got one copy off of a disk that was mailed to us by a national Pharmacy
association.  They sent out dozens, if not hundreds of disks like that.

NIH sends out their grant applications as large, macro driven Word
documents, in one format. I can't _wait_ till they send one out with a
macro virus...Word asks now, as of Word97, if you want to open a document
that contains a macro because it might be infected...since you know it
does contain a legitimate macro...

I think, however, at the heart of this argument, is that people have some
picture of computers in Traveller as PC-XT's writ large. They are not! 
This makes studying computer viruses today as an example of what Virus is
comparable to studying bear attacks to cope with an Ebola outbreak. 

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:05:37 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: List HQ -- Status  Update

>On Sunday, December 7, our mailing list processor, web page, and ftp
>archive machine lost a hard drive.

Anyone else note the significance of the date?

I've never heard of a "Tora, Tora, Tora" virus, but I can imagine...

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:04:08 -0500
From: "Glenn Crawford" <glennc@nelvana.com>
Subject: Journal es muerto

So the Journal is dead...AGAIN!

Isn't this sort of like the beginning of the long night?

Megatraveller were the First Imperium
TNE was the Terran Confederation
T4 is the Ramshackle Empire

Welcome the new Long Night; maybe GURPS Traveller will be the true Milieu
Zero

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 09:03:27 -0500
From: "Peter H. Brenton" <pbrenton@mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Tiny particles = tiny weapons

Yet another resend.

>At 04:17 PM 12/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>>
>>Keychain light sabers, anyone?
>>
>>There doesn't appear to be any regulation of ROF for toroidal PAW's, nor does
>>there seem to be a minimum size for the tunnel. Input power is the only real
>>limiting factor on how much you can crank out of these micro-toroids.
>Given the
>>power outputs of very small power supplies at higher TL's, why haven't CPAW's
>>replaced CSlug small arms completely?
>>
>>Or did I miss something obvious?
>>
>>
>>
>
>How about miniturized componants, each slightly out of 'phase' with each
>other, but still working together as a unit?  Hypothetically, many
>componants may occupy the same spatial coordinates but are separated
>dimensionally.  This would allow for intense miniturization of power
>sources and weapons.
>
>What do you all think?

FWEEP FWEEP!  You are penalized for genre crossover violations of the
vilest kind.  "Out of phase" indeed, "Light Sabers" Bah! (spit)...You are
sentanced to 30 minutes in the TML Penalty Box and also to test firing a
Sayat Pelvic Mount Plasma Projector without the customary human protective
devices.

Obviously, the reason that cpaws haven't replaced slug weapons in the 3I is
that...they haven't.  Not in CSC, Not in the Megatraveller Encyclopedia,
not in Mercenary, not in Smash and Grab.  Whadddaya want?  all of future
history is agin ya?

How obvious can it be?

I would guess that we will see (probably from the trav-tech mailing list
originally) some rule analagous to the TL*50 laser rule to limit PAW size
to a certain minimum.

Of course, the other defense is that particle beams tend to generate some
quantity of nasty radiation when used.  Ah, you counter, but its always
fired from within ABD right?  At any rate, radiation problems will
definitely limit the usefulness of such a weapon.

Pete


Peter H. Brenton : pbrenton@mit.edu
"Shiela-X where are you"

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2150
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.comTraveller-digest     Saturday, December 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2151



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Technological Conservatism
Auction updated
Re: Bridge Ejection Plug
Re: Near-C Rocks (Used to be:  Re: Virus and TNE)
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Roving Gearheads -- ARRGH!
Re: Technological conservatism.
Uncie Hengie, it's reaaaaaady
My Problems with the Virus
High-worth cargos
Re: Relativistic rock shields
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Technological conservatism.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 20:48:16 EST
From: SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

>Exploring cybernetics more fully could also lead to a lot more than
>cyberpunk - there are a lot of unexplored avenues. It could also lead to 
>significantly different cultural, social, economic, and political systems. 
>Our group is playing a Blue Planet campaign now where implanted computers
>are being used in a decidedly non-cyberpunkish manner. It gives the 
>GM some new ways of giving characters information, is affecting the tone
>of the role playing in positive ways, and opens up some interesting 
>avenues for plot devices. 

I had said that cybernetics, used improperly, could lead to cyberpunk in
space.  The intent of me saying that was so people knew I wasn't trying to
say, "hey, let's have Cyberpunk!  IN SPACE!  That would be kew-el".

But I see that in at least one case, I was wrong.

>The trinary logic computers mentioned in some earlier posts hold 
>similar interesting opportunities. They sound like fuzzy logic taken
>to an extreme.

I liked the image of the blobbies in the fishbowls myself :)

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:08:46 EST
From: SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

>Teleportation - physically impossible. There's too much information
>to transmit, to say nothing of the energy needed. Well, that is, unless
>you're Zhodani. :) Teleportation exists, but only as a small-scale
>psionic effect. With limitations.

Well, in my defense I had acknowledged that teleportation was more or less
impossible as we know physics today.  :)

But, then, to be a devil's advocate:  reactionless thrusters break physical
laws on a daily basis, and people _complained_ when someone put a more
realistic system in with TNE.

>Genetic Engineering - ever read Rats & Cats? Maybe not. But the Solomani
>have made extensive use of GenEng, uplifting other species, modifying
>humaniti, doing all sorts of stuff.

No, I haven't.  The problem with all of this great DP MT stuff is that...
well...  it didn't have wide distribution and all the stuff is now very
difficult to get :)

>Cybernetics - hm, it doesn't get mentioned much, but it does get
>mentioned a bit... it's mostly a background thing - most Imperial 
>worlds eitehr aren't interested or don't have the technology.

This is the type of thing I'm talking about.  We make all of these
improvements in cybernetic technology in the real world.  The discipline has a
bright future, and then suddenly supposed to believe that it just goes *poof*.
Cybernetics are real, and exist today, now, as we speak.  Pacemakers, heart
valves, synthetic limbs, in the 70s they experimented with helping the blind
to see with a "head jack".  Apparently it was very promising, but progress was
slow and funding dropped off eventually (for the interested:  they could allow
blind people to "see" a 3x3 or 4x4 grid of "lights" by using a direct neural
interface.  The idea was if they could increase the amount of "lights" they
could have enough resolution to allow the blind to see via a camera), there's
so much we're doing _today_ that it just seems like there'd at least be a few
advances between now and then.  And bull that nobody would be interested.

>Nanotech - nanotech as a concept is barely 10 years old. Traveller
>pre-dates nanotech bye a whole decade. :) Nanotech is a "singularity"
>as its creators put it - beyond the point where nanotech becomes 
>real, everything changes so much that you can't even imagine what
>it's like. Which makes for a bad game supplement...

Trav may pre-date nanotech by a decade, but...  Traveller has been produced in
one form or another the whole time from then til now, with minor gaps.  So
that's a poor excuse :)

But yes, I have heard the arguments against using nanotech.  Like I said, the
universe would be entirely different if full-scale nanotech were implemented
(in this case, I see the point of tempering a technology), but full scale
nanotech doesn't have to be put into swing.  There are all kind of things that
can be done with nano-tech without getting to the point of "replicators".

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:13:56 EST
From: SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

>Seriously though, while Trav is pretty consertative in its
>approach to technology, that's partly by design. Anything
>more wacky becomes difficult for players to get a good grasp on.
>Hell, I find it hard enough to explain the Traveller backdrop to
>people as it is... "You see, I have to explain about 3000 years of
>future history for this to make sense, so hold on a second..."

Whoops, didn't see this half of the message :)

Nobody explained to me 3000+ of human development so the computer would make
sense when I first used one.  Nobody explained to me what advances in
materials technology came along that made plastic soda bottles cheaper then
glass ones.  I've never had to explain future history when describing
technology yet.  The players say, "Hey, let's jump in the gravcar and go over
to the starport!!"

I can see what you mean to some extent, but doesn't hold up as to why it would
be difficult to play while postulating the future based on real-life advances
in science.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:18:57 EST
From: SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Technological Conservatism

>I've heard the argument that games with odder technology are simply
>to confusing to play, but I simply don't buy it.  

I agree.  There may be some initial confusion, but once people get their
juices flowing and get into the game I think such problems fall by the
wayside.

>Sure, nanotechnology won't work in gaming, it's just *too* odd, but 
>genetic engineering, biological and cybernetic implants, massively 
>networked computers which exist in *every* device made are all ideas 
>which have been used in SF literature for more than a decade, and which 
>have been used in at least a few games.  Traveller could be updated.  
>Digest Groups was doing this, they even had a cyborg book and a genetic 
>engineering book planned, the TNE came along, followed by T4 and the 
>technology of the Imperium has been left stagnating in 60s SF-land.

But see, limited nanotech *really* does exist.  Whereas I don't believe that
Traveller should be bogged down by extreme realism, I do believe it should at
least take these things that really exist into account when creating the
future.

Traveller not only _could_ be updated, it _should_ be updated.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 21:55:30 -0500
From: Craig Janssen <daili@remove.me.gate.net>
Subject: Auction updated

The auction has been updated.

The url is:

http://www.gate.net/~daili/auction.htm

Thanks,

Craig Janssen

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 19:02:10 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Bridge Ejection Plug

>> 
>> Essentially what I'm envisioning is almost like a modular portion of the
>> ship with explosive bolts that can be ejected (ala current fighter ejection
>> seats). 
>> 
>> Anyway, that's the idea. I welcome opinions and constructive criticisms.
>
>Assuming that the Engineering crew is not present on the bridge, this will
>cause a deterioration of morale in the "black gang." Unless, of course, they
>get their own "lifepod."
>
>Loren Wiseman
>
>
>

That's why just having strategically placed 'escape pods' is the best idea.
 At least everyone has a 'chance' to get to one.

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 5 Dec 1997 23:39:19 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Near-C Rocks (Used to be:  Re: Virus and TNE)

Greg Smith wrote:

>
>[snip]
>>
>>Next Question:
>>
>>How much of this world's Sun's energy will be blocked by this cloud >of
>sand, and how will that affect the climate and habitability of the
>>world?
>>
>>Of course, if the population had to choose between being pulverized >by
>a near-c rock and slowly freezing to death...
>>
>
>Forgive ignorance.  near-c rock?
>
>S/f
>Greg


	To quote Ian Fleming, once is chance, twice is coincidence, three
times is enemy action.  If somebody starts the task system thread up again,
I'm gonna start getting real paranoid :).

	C, or cee, is the speed of light; 300,000 km/sec.  A rock
travelling near, or even 1% of that speed, is going to make one hell of a
mess of whatever it hits (Leonard will probably post the gory details :>).

	In Trav, given T-plates and efficient fusion plants, it'd be real
easy to get an asteroid, or Kuiper belt object, or even a ship's lifeboat
up to speeds where hitting a planet would pretty well ruin it.  If you
start your rock far enough out that it has a few months at 1 G constant
acceleration, it's going to be going real fast when it hits.  We're not
talking dinosaur-killer impact here either... we're talking turn the planet
inside-out impact if the rock is a decent size.

	So, goes the frac-cee rock thread, if somebody sells you a
defective watch on some planet, and won't give you a refund, this is what
you do :).  It's a dirt cheap, hard-to-defend-against, and very effective
doomsday device.  Therefore, somebody ought to have used it at some point,
and thus all sorts of consequences, like killer in-system traffic cops &
planetary defense systems, ought to have arisen...

	But it's been a while since we beat that particular dead horse into
a mohole, so I won't go there.

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 23:29:42 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

At 10:21 am 12/5/97 EST, you wrote:
>>	The reason Traveller isn't more like {Star Wars, Star Trek,
>>Battlestar Galactica, Blood Music, Neuromancer, ...}, and
doesn't
>>include technology like {Teleportation, Nanotek, Shields,
>>Phasers, Warp Drive, Neural Jacks, ...} is because Traveller
>>isn't {Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, Blood Music,
>>Neuromancer, ...}.
>
>Feels kind of like a dismissal to me :)

	Wasn't intended to be a dismissal, simply a response to what
might have been an underlying "metaquestion"--the real answer as
to why Traveller is the way it is is that that's the way
Traveller is ... I'm not denigrating any of the above, nor saying
it has no place in an RPG. I'm simply saying that the answer to
the question "Why doesn't Traveller have ... like ..." is
"Traveller isn't ..."

>>	Marc Miller, et. al., were looking for a specific feel; even
the
>>very first Traveller had a very "hard-science" feel.  Go back &
>>reread the space combat rules in the original LBB if you don't
>>buy that ... Having set that feel, it's been propagated
forward,
>>until the entire fabric of what Traveller is formed. 
>
>Okay, maybe they were going for a "hard-science" feel, but now I
know that you
>missed the point of my message.  Genetic engineering exists
today and is
>actually used and is pretty advanced.  Sheep have been cloned
and stabilized.
>Baboons have been cloned and died shortly thereafter.  We have
algae that can
>eat oil to help clean up slicks in the ocean.  Yet, genetic
engineering gets
>only passing coverage in Traveller.  Nanotechnology exists.
There is alot of
>money being pumped into the discipline, and alot of research is
being done.
>The japanese have actually turned out some of the tiny critters
already.
>Computer science is quite real and is advancing at a rapid pace,
the same with
>electronics.

	Again, I didn't say that any of this was not hard science; it
clearly is. OK, I don't buy nanotechnology. Just because you can,
in a lab, create a few curiosities in the form of micromachinery,
doesn't mean you have nanotechnology. Sell me a vial of nanites
that'll go in and reshape my cornea to cure my nearsightedness,
and I'll buy nanotech. But the rest of it ...

>>Start throwing in other things, and you'll tear the fabric.
Maybe you
>>can make something else out of the shreds, but it won't be
>>Traveller ...
>
>Geez.  That's an awfully narrowminded attitude.  If we all stuck
so closely to
>the Traveller aesthetic, we would have no combat armor, no huge
ships, and
>perhaps even no grav tanks (they weren't covered by the original
LBBs were
>they?).

	Again, you were asking why Traveller is the way it is. Very
simple. Traveller is a very long history, and a fairly detailed
universe by this point. No, it doesn't hang together perfectly.
But if you start adding things, you can very easily destroy what
little consistency there is. Doesn't mean you're wrong, or you're
bad, or you're unTraveller. It just means that the existing body
of game background becomes irrelevant because there are now too
many holes in it.

	IIRC, in your original message you were complaining about how
"staid" and unadvanced advanced technology seems to be. But if
you change too much of that, it becomes increasingly easy to
shoot holes in the "accepted" history of the universe. As simple
a thing as jump time decreasing with tech level throws quite a
few assumptions out of whack.

	Yes, things have been added to Traveller over the years. Those
things were added as Traveller grew, and grew with Traveller.
When Book 4 came out and introduced battledress, there *was* no
detailed Imperium. There wasn't much you had to worry about
invalidating. The foundation is laid now, and it tends to
constrain the way things can go now. If you want to add
technology A to Traveller, there's a strong pressure to make sure
that techA doesn't lead to the logical conclusion that <insert
historical reference here> would have turned out exactly the
other way. Not that even published authors necessarily follow
this rule, but it explains _why_ there's a strong measure of
conservatism ...
- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 05 Dec 97 23:29:03 -0600
From: eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)
Subject: Re: Roving Gearheads -- ARRGH!

On 12/05/97 at 12:28 PM,  anders.backman@aniware.se (Anders Backman) said:

>What! Is VDS out? 

Yes, VDS is out.  I can't give a review on it yet...I'm still working my
way through it, but it looks good so far. I'm still working my way through
FFS2 and Vehicles II, as well, and they look good to me too! Of course,
none of them are complicated enough for me. ;->

>In pdf only or is there a paper version as well? 

PDF only at the moment. I got my copy from www.hyperbooks.com for a very
small sum. 

I emailed Greg Porter with a question about a paper version and he said he
was hoping for a release early next year. It's what I plan to buy with some
of the  Christmas money I get..if I get any.

Eris,
    in gearhead mode
- -- 
- -----------------------------------------------------------
eris@pen.net (Eris Reddoch)    using MR/2 ICE #245
- -----------------------------------------------------------

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 02:16:41 EST
From: SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

>The Imperium as we know it only is 1100 years old - although it is set in 
>the 57. century of the Solomani Calendar. It is short before the end of 
>expansion. This is only one millennium, but is it enough to achieve 
>higher TLs than 15? (There is a TL boom in nowadays Computer technology, 
>yes, but it will not last ever. There is a point to which it can go no 
>further, and I think its short before. At some times you need new 
>theories to go on.)

There's a TL boom in more than just computer tech.  Computer technology is
enabling technology.  Computers allow developments in other disciplines to
come much more rapidly.  Electronics, materials, chemistry, medicine, etc.  I
don't think that there is one discipline that hasn't been completely changed
by computers and the introduction of computerization.

The nebulous "they" are able to do things that just a few years ago really
were nothing more than science-fiction.  Yes, the boom _may_ end someday, but
that day isn't around the corner.  If the Solomani have had major booms and
made major insights, then it stands to reason so have other races, human and
alien throughout the Traveller galaxy.

Besides, there's always new theories to go on.  Theories are a dime a dozen.
Its the inability to test those theories that tends to hold technology and
science back.

>But theres another way to explain the tech conservativity, which I think is 
>logical. Remember the feudal system which holds the Imperium together. 
>What would happen if any world would let free to improve their own tech 
>uncontrolled? Every world in the end would develop their own standards, 
>based on their theories and how theyve found them. They would end with 
>the problem that no neighbouring worlds could even fit their light bulbs 
>into one others socket! (Oh yes, Im overstating a little bit ...)

This logic can only be pushed so far before it breaks down.  I'm sitting here
looking at my old fashioned Traveller book and looking at the two page tech
level spread right now.  From about, what, late TL5 through to today (three
tech levels) there have been no major problems interfacing devices of varying
tech levels with each other.  Yes, people make different connectors, and
sockets, etc.  They will also speak differently languages, and eat different
foods, and so on.

That is, of course, what the Calender Compliance guys are for.  They oversee
the standardization of equipment from planet to planet, make sure that worlds
are adhering to the standard calender, etc.  That's one half of the force that
guides technology towards standardization.  The other half of the
"technological invisible hand" is space travel.  The more travel there is
between worlds, the greater the need for standardization.

>To let space travel not be affected, there must be a way to control 
>Imperial standards - and you know what this means to the improvement rate
>per time. This in fact would be the equivalent to the Vilani 
>conservationism that stagmated the whole first Imperium. In the third, 
>technological conservationism would lead to stagnating TLs.

Standards don't mean that the improvement rate over time must be controlled at
all.  I don't buy this rationale.  Like I said, According to classic Trav
we've blown through...  whoops, I was wrong before...  FOUR tech levels in the
United States with basically the same wall sockets.  Computers are usually
made with switches to be used with different voltages.  If I still had our old
Television (my parents bought it a few years before I was born, late 60s early
70s, ie TL7, I would have little problem hooking it up with a TL9 Sony
Playstation or Nintendo64.  This is one case, but there are thousands if not
millions of other examples.  Whoever is creating consumer goods will create
them for consumers.  Consumers won't want them if they don't work with other
devices that are already in use.  As a result, interfaces and connections will
tend to stay the same until they are completely archaic and the new technology
has existed long enough to start to become standard in and of itself.

The same phone jacks have been in my house for as long as I can remember.
Probably longer.  They are probably about TL7.  I have a TL9 modem connected,
a TL9 Caller ID box, and a TL9 phone.  The TL9 modem is inside a TL8 computer
which is connected to a TL6 (or earlier?) wall socket.

My point is however, tech level has little to do with standardization.
Standardization can be achieved regardless of tech level and regardless of the
difference in tech levels.

Semo

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 17:28:47
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Uncie Hengie, it's reaaaaaady

To : Uncie Hengie

From : Diiiiiitziieeeee

Re : the teeeeensy bay-beeeee particle warticle gun

Unciiiieee,

Sowwy sowwy sowwwy this took sooooo long. Things were biiiiiiiizzzzy in
compliiiance and weeeeee ran out of the liiiiitttlle yelllloooowwww pills
pills pills and were verrrry saaaaad.

But it's ready ready ready.

It's got a 80 centimenter looong tube, thats got a diameter of 10
centimeters. The tunnel weighs 4.8 kiiilos and costs six hunnerd fifty
credits.

The beam comes out at fiiifty kilojoules, and goes out to 4.71 kilometers
in a vacuuuuuum. And and and and if you fire it more than once every
twennny  seconds, the tube goes glowie glowie glowie boooooooooooom. An an
an if you fire it in aaaaiiiiirrrr the range gets shorter. Prolly to four
hunnerd seventy meters or so. An an an you gotta member to switch it from
neutral to charged in an aaaaattttmospheeeeeere

The gun has twenty fiiive kiiiilos of accumulators and a thiiiirty kiiilo
beam pointer, which is accurate to threeee hundred meeeters. The
accumulators hold one quaaaarter of a megajoule.

Each shot takes a one point fiiiive kilo battery pack, which has enough
juice juice juice for one shot, which takes one second.

Weeeee reckon that someone in a BeeeeDeeeeEeeeee body body body suit could
carry the tuuube, the pointer, the accumuuulator and forty kiiiilos of
batteries, enough for twennny five shots. 

It puts out fiiiiiifty kiiiilojoules of energy, which turns into damage of
one point one two. Against peeeeeople not with lots of crystal crystal
crystal iron on em, thats 
twenny two diiiice. Heee heee heee heee.

Leeeeegals say that you hafta carry it. You caaaaant tow it, coz it doesnt
have a carriage.

Weeeeee say you dont hafta have a beam pointer on it, but weeeeeee couldnt
hit leeeegals car from twenny meters without it, so weeeee put one on.
Leeeeegals say weeeee hafta but them a new caaaaar, but weeeeee reckon they
should paaaark it on our ball.

Weeeee want a one kiiiilometer beeeam pointer.

All up it costs thirty thousand credits for the beeeeam pointer, threee
hunnerd credits for the acccuuumulator, siiiix hunnerd fifty credits for
the tuuube and nine hunnnerd credits per battery pack.

So it costs thiiiirty one thousand credits, pluuuuus niiiine hunnerd
credits per battery pack.

So can we put it into production can we can we can we ????


***************************************************************************

Scary stuff isnt it. Knocks a PGMP into a cocked hat :) 22 dice damage :)

Remember with energy weapons to multiply the damage rating by 20 to get the
number of dice against personell. Sayat take note. Note that this weapon is
optimised for sustained fire - but it still puts out 50% more energy than
the shell from a Crunch Gun.

The question of recoil is something I'll leave to others, but I dont reckon
a particle accelerator would put out much recoil - after all, you are
accelerating a very very small amount of matter.


Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 00:06:36 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: My Problems with the Virus

Now, I can suspend disbelief with the best of them (hey I can even believe
that there are some honest politicians), but the Virus does not call for
suspension of disbelief, it calls for throwing it out the window of a fifty
story building! Why? because it's not internally consistant. As I understand
it, the Virus is based around the Cymbeline chips as relieved in Adventure
13 - Signal GK. I can find two really major problems from this adventure.

Firstly, in Signal GK, the Chips reproduce by physically etching themselves
onto others. From what I understand of the Virus, this property is how the
Virus hardwires itself into a target computer. *However* in Signal GK the
chips do this by using the corrosive volcanic gases in the Cymbeline
atomosphere (presumably utilising electromagnatism). Now, I can't imagine
there being too many suitable corrosive gases inside very many Imperial
computers! So just how does the Virus physically write itself onto the target
chip? I can see how the Virus can get it's data to the target, but just how
does it hardwire itself onto the target?

Secondly, Signal GK starts in 075-1110 and involves a minimum of 9 jumps. At
the very best the Imperium could not have even become aware of the existance
of the Cymbeline Chips until late 1110, more likely early 1111. Now the
Imperium is supposed to have developed the transponder chips and then
produced them in sufficent quantities to have them installed in virtually
every single Imperial ship by 1127 remembering that in 1116 the minor
inconvience of the Rebellion occured. More than this, in this time, all the
other major interstellar states also adopted them and installed them in
virtually every single one of their ships. This incidentally includes the
Solomani Confederation which has every reason to deliberately make its
systems incompatible with those of the Imperium! So basically for the Virus
to work, the chips need to be developed and installed in virtually every
single starship operating in the Imperium over a period of just five years.
Remember that it takes at least three to transmit a message from Terra to
Regina. Sorry but that requires more than suspending disbelief.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 20:08:23
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: High-worth cargos

Flicking through my copy of FFS2, I realise just how many high-worth cargos
there are in Traveller.

TL12 accumulators cost MCr 0.14 per displacement ton, and are substantially
more efficient than the lowe-tech versions, and thus in demand.

TL12 beam pointers cost MCr 1.4 per displacement ton, although they are
only really in demand by crazy people who try and build man-portable
high-energy weapons (bigger weapons almost always have the beam pointer as
a negligible part of the weapons system).

Thruster plates cost MCr3.5 per displacement ton ... this means a 200 dt
jump-2 Far Trader (list price with some guns around MCr65) with 100 d-tons
of t-plates is carrying a cargo worth MCr350. And there will be a lot of B
starports out there that will use t-plates to stick in interplanetary
craft, and repair starships. T-plates are a TL11 cargo too - something to
ship from not-quite-cutting edge worlds to the high-tech Imperial Core.

But the biggie is high-tech computers. A top-of-the-line TL12 computer
costs MCr 72 for a 8 m^3 unit. Add 6 cubic meters of padding, and you have
a cargo that costs MCr 72 a displacement ton. Our hypothetical Far Trader
is therefore carrying a cargo worth MCr 7200. At this level of cargo cost,
the biggest cost becomes the opportunity cost on the money tied up in the
cargo ... at 3% a year, thats an interest bill of MCr 4.15 *per week* on
the cargo. You create a market for very very fast ships when you are
staring at those sort of numbers - it starts to get worthwhile to build 4G
merchant ships, for example.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:37:23 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Relativistic rock shields

In mail you write:

>
>>   The problem would be getting enough sand around a mainworld.  To place
>>   a 0.1-g/cm^2 shell at 100 diameters from an earthlike world would
>>   require 2.0E+19 kg of sand.
>
> I don't think you need the shell to be out at 100 diameters. The Earth's
> atmosphere is sufficiently opaque to X-rays that they won't be a problem; I
> think it would be similarly opaque to slow neutrons. You don't even need to
> slow down the rock's protons and electrons to harmless energies; if you 
> convert a solid rock into a expanding cloud of vapour/plasma the 
> vapour/plasma
> won't make it through the atmosphere either. So you probably don't need
> 0.1 gm/cm^2 either - just one grain big enough to vapourize the rock per
> rock-surface-area-unit.

One problem you overlooked. If the atmosphere is doing the shielding,
that means that it is absorbing the energy. That could be rather messy.
Sort of like a super El Nino. :-)

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:24:06 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

In mail you write:

> But yes, I have heard the arguments against using nanotech.  Like I said, the
> universe would be entirely different if full-scale nanotech were implemented
> (in this case, I see the point of tempering a technology), but full scale
> nanotech doesn't have to be put into swing.  There are all kind of things 
> that
> can be done with nano-tech without getting to the point of "replicators".

You don't need nanotech (in the Drexler sense of molecular level
machinery) to get replicators. You just continue down the path that
various maching and manufacturing techniques are following. And not
even that far. 

*Right now* we can manipulate individual atoms. It's just a time
consuming process, and not really *practical*. That *can't* last. And
within a century or so we *will* have something equivalent to
replicators. 

You talk about cybernetics. Well, try to envision a society where
everyone can access any fact that is known merely by thinking about it.
And can perform calculations that'd put a Cray to shame "in their
head". Add in the sort of "expert system" software that'll go along
with this, and you'll have a situation that *nobody* can play.

How many adventures depend on the players having partial knowledge? Or
not being able to figure something out easily? Or being conned (true,
an "enhanced" human could probably con another enhanced human, but it'd
be done in ways *we* can't imagine).

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 04:14:52 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

In mail you write:

>>Seriously though, while Trav is pretty consertative in its
>>approach to technology, that's partly by design. Anything
>>more wacky becomes difficult for players to get a good grasp on.
>>Hell, I find it hard enough to explain the Traveller backdrop to
>>people as it is... "You see, I have to explain about 3000 years of
>>future history for this to make sense, so hold on a second..."
>
> Whoops, didn't see this half of the message :)
>
> Nobody explained to me 3000+ of human development so the computer would make
> sense when I first used one.  Nobody explained to me what advances in
> materials technology came along that made plastic soda bottles cheaper then
> glass ones.

Yes, but you *grew up* in this society. Consider trying to explain it
to a Neolithic hunter (or a New Guinea tribesman from one of the
Neolithic cultures there).

> I've never had to explain future history when describing
> technology yet.  The players say, "Hey, let's jump in the gravcar and go over
> to the starport!!"

That's because they know what a gravcar is supposed to be from their
experience with movies and books.

> I can see what you mean to some extent, but doesn't hold up as to why
> it would be difficult to play while postulating the future based on
> real-life advances in science.

The problem is that if you project the *real* advances in a realistic
manner, it's only about a century or two before the results hit a point
where they have effectively gone beyond anything we could comprehend
without living then. 

Sure, the hunter and tribesman I mention above could learn to function
after a fashion in our society. But it'd taske him *years (more likely
decades) to be able to pick up enough of the stuff we picked up as we
grew up so that he would *know* what to expect from things rather than
having to stop and think about it. 

Heck, just the cultural changes caused by some of the tech you talk
about would be enough to make it *extremely* difficult for anyone from
our cultural to understand. And if you keep something like our current
culture, then you aren't be "realistic" because our culture *can't*
survive the effects of many of these changes. Not without changing
beyond recognition.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2151
***********************************

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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest     Saturday, December 6 1997     Volume 1997 : Number 2152



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

What Books are out?
Re: Uncie Hengie, it's reaaaaaady
Re: My Problems with the Virus
Re: My Problems with the Virus [LONG]
Re: Technological conservatism
Re: Technological conservatism.
Tiny particles = tiny weapons
re: Relativistic rock shields
Indistinguishable from magic
Technology event horizons
Re: Virus -- That wasn't the way it was!

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 07:53:27 +0000
From: "William Hutchison" <panzer@mail.sisna.com>
Subject: What Books are out?

Hi,
May I ask what Books are out for the New Traveller?

Please Help

Thanks,
Will
ICQ#2739566

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:25:55 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: Re: Uncie Hengie, it's reaaaaaady

Ian wrote:

>To : Uncie Hengie
>
>>From : Diiiiiitziieeeee
>
>Re : the teeeeensy bay-beeeee particle warticle gun

It's sooooooo CUUUUUUUTE!!!!

>Each shot takes a one point fiiiive kilo battery pack, which has enough
>juice juice juice for one shot, which takes one second.

I'm wondering -- is there a reason one can't use a fusion-plus unit instead
of lugging big old batteries around?

>Remember with energy weapons to multiply the damage rating by 20 to get the
>number of dice against personell. Sayat take note. Note that this weapon is

The Number Fifteen Xenopolitical Investigative Embassy of the Sayat
Concourse would like to protest most strongly this apparent imputation that
members of the Concourse would ever use such a device with intent to cause
harm to _personnel_.  Such equipment will always and only be deployed
towards liquidation of hostile interstellar neighbors, and discourteous
biohazards, contrary deities, and all other manifestations of lurking alien
evil.

#15 would like to place an immediate order for nine gross.


Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang Page: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 11:44:47 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: My Problems with the Virus

Andrew Moffatt-Vallance writes:

>Now, I can suspend disbelief with the best of them (hey I can even believe
>that there are some honest politicians), but the Virus does not call for
>suspension of disbelief, it calls for throwing it out the window of a fifty
>story building! Why? because it's not internally consistant. As I understand
>it, the Virus is based around the Cymbeline chips as relieved in Adventure
>13 - Signal GK. I can find two really major problems from this adventure.

   Politicans are salespeople--some more greedy and selfish than others,
and therefore more willing to take advantage of people, but all looking
to make profits in the form of power.

   As for your other comments, not so fast...

>Firstly, in Signal GK, the Chips reproduce by physically etching themselves
>onto others. From what I understand of the Virus, this property is how the
>Virus hardwires itself into a target computer. *However* in Signal GK the
>chips do this by using the corrosive volcanic gases in the Cymbeline
>atomosphere (presumably utilising electromagnatism). Now, I can't imagine
>there being too many suitable corrosive gases inside very many Imperial
>computers! So just how does the Virus physically write itself onto the target
>chip? I can see how the Virus can get it's data to the target, but just how
>does it hardwire itself onto the target?

   Presumably Imperial scientists were able to genetically engineer them
so that they did not need the prescence of corrosive volcanic gas to do
their work.  There are many ways this could be done, including using
other gases (oxygen for example), or by using some other means such as
power spikes, etc.  Point is that since the Cymbeline chips (I actually
prefer 'silicon based lifeform', but 'chips' takes up less
bandwidth--when explaining Virus to new players I always use the former
term and not the latter) were being developed as a weapon, the people
doing the work would have thought of this.

>Secondly, Signal GK starts in 075-1110 and involves a minimum of 9 jumps. At
>the very best the Imperium could not have even become aware of the existance
>of the Cymbeline Chips until late 1110, more likely early 1111.

   Unless of course the Imperium already knew of the chips, and the
effort to bring Dr. Rushorin in was merely an attempt to embarrass the
Solomani and/or the Solomani intelligence community.  His value as an
intelligence asset would have been far greater than just his knowledge
of the chips (think of all the contacts he would have had in the
Solomani genetic research community).

>Now the Imperium is supposed to have developed the transponder chips and 
>then produced them in sufficent quantities to have them installed in 
>virtually every single Imperial ship by 1127 remembering that in 1116 the 
>minor inconvience of the Rebellion occured.

   If the manufacturing process had began sooner, and distribution begun
in 1111, this would not be a problem.

>More than this, in this time, all the other major interstellar states also 
>adopted them and installed them in virtually every single one of their ships. 

   Do business with the Imperium, put a chip on your ship (sounds like
an ad slogan).  I doubt merchants would need much more incentive than
that--and since these things would have worked so well, no doubt
additional orders for them from the respective governments would have
come through until the early 1120s, after which interstellar trade
within the Imperium has pretty well ceased.

>This incidentally includes the Solomani Confederation which has every reason 
>to deliberately make its systems incompatible with those of the Imperium! 

   Except that you are forgetting our friends the liberal Solomani Party
members of the Bootean cluster, merchants who had no qualms whatsoever
about doing business with the Imperium.  Remember too that if indeed the
Aslan and Hivers had decided to make the chip mandatory, the Solomani
would have shut out of all the surrounding major markets, so acceptance
of the "Imperial running dog" chip would have to come, grudgingly
perhaps on the part of Party conservatives, but it would have come.

>So basically for the Virus to work, the chips need to be developed and 
>installed  in virtually every single starship operating in the Imperium over 
>a period of just five years.  Remember that it takes at least three to 
>transmit a message from Terra to Regina. Sorry but that requires more than 
>suspending disbelief.

   Here's we are in at least partial agreement.  Assuming that the
Imperial had already developed the chips as transponders by 1111, and
that it was quickly adopted by the Imperium and all of the surrounding
states, five years would probably be a bit too short of a time for this
to happen.  However, I not so sure it would have taken all that much
longer than that.  Assuming you start shipping crates of these things at
jump-3, by 1116 they could easily be in every ship in the Imperium. 
Merchants from outside the Imperium would pick theirs up as they
arrrived, so they too could have had them by 1116.  The problem is how
long would the negotiations have taken with the various governments
outside the Imperium so they too would adopt the chip as standard.  One
possibility to make this happen before the end of 1116 is if the
Imperium's ambassadors also knew of the chip's existance in 1111, and
were negotiating secretly with the Aslan, Hivers, and K'kree (also some
of the individual Vargr states--for obvious reasons negotiations with
the Solomani and the Zhodani would be out of the question--in fact I
doubt that the Zhodani ever used them).  By the time the chips were
shipped to them (say starting in 1112-13) the neccessary trade
agreements could have been concluded.  The Solomani would have come on
board sometime after that.

   One other thing to remember here: Virus was spread by more than just
sentient transponders talking to each other--in fact the original
infection of Dulinor's fleet didn't happen that way.  It is spread
through ***data transmission***.  All it takes is *one* infected ship to
transmit data to a couple of major starports, and then for those
starports to transmit data to inbound and outbound ships, and you have a
major epidemic on your hands.  We're talking about something that is
capable of laying dormant for years and then springing forth to wreak
serious havoc.  Think "what is Ebola were a sentient Virus?" and you see
the implications for machines.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:46:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Bruce Johnson <johnson@Pharmacy.Arizona.EDU>
Subject: Re: My Problems with the Virus [LONG]

Internal argument with myself:

"I will not post another Virus article...I Will NOT post another Virus
article...I will NOT POST...ARRRGGGGHHH! Get out of the way you cautious
fool they'll only be electronic flames!!"

<Virtual asbestos suit ON!>

On Sun, 7 Dec 1997, Andrew Moffatt-Vallance wrote: 

> Now, I can suspend disbelief with the best of them (hey I can even believe
> that there are some honest politicians), but the Virus does not call for
> suspension of disbelief, it calls for throwing it out the window of a fifty
> story building! Why? because it's not internally consistant. As I understand
> it, the Virus is based around the Cymbeline chips as relieved in Adventure
> 13 - Signal GK. I can find two really major problems from this adventure.
>
> Firstly, in Signal GK, the Chips reproduce by physically etching themselves
> onto others. From what I understand of the Virus, this property is how the
> Virus hardwires itself into a target computer. *However* in Signal GK the
> chips do this by using the corrosive volcanic gases in the Cymbeline
> atomosphere (presumably utilising electromagnatism). Now, I can't imagine
> there being too many suitable corrosive gases inside very many Imperial
> computers! So just how does the Virus physically write itself onto the target
> chip? I can see how the Virus can get it's data to the target, but just how
> does it hardwire itself onto the target?

Read the source material closely, in this case Signal GK (SGK) and
Survival Margin (SM) 

First, the passage defining how Virus came about, bureaucratically:

SM, P. 71, Chapter 4, "When Empires fall, Pt. 1"

"And they feasted on beeves, and fruits, and sloth and SPAM, and breakfast
cereal..."  OOPS! Wrong book! <slam> <shuffle shuffle shuffle>

"However, Admiral Herzoch Stearns, Chief of Combined Imperial Intelligence
from 1097 to 1108, ordered the exploitation of a newly discovered "wild
strain" of Cymbeline chip. These symbiotic parasites were, in some cases,
able to change the circuitry of their prey AT A DISTANCE by convincing
the prey circuit via broadcast messages to modify it's own circuitry to
the parasite's wishes." (emphasis mine)

Virus cuts circuits by manipulating voltages and current within
the Imperial computers. Remember, the Chips on Cymbeline are
living in very primitive conditions...they use corrosive gases because
they have to. And the inteligent ones AVOID the high concentrations of
corrosive gases because those conditions are harmful to them.

SM, P 75 "When Empires Fall pt. II"

"Upon entering a new system, the first thing that the Virus does is build
itself a "hidey-hole" a small cul-de-sac in the circuitry where it cut its
code into the computer's own circuitry....The small, intense amounts of
power required (Ed. I think they meant to say _short_ intense here) by the
virus to cut new circuitry could be seen as power spikes at these early
stages..."

My translation...it cuts itself a ROM in the circuitry.

I think what most people who object to the Virus are missing, is the
astonishing complexity and densitry of computer circuitry in the late 3I
and the staggering bandwidth they have. If you look at the descriptions of
X-boat operations, you have to come to the conclusion that data
transmissions in the 3I can be accomplished at HUGE bandwidths...far
beyond the terabits/second we think is huge. The "small" cul-de-sac that
they speak of here could be enormous, gigabytes-equivalent in our
terms...remember, computers in Traveller are HUGE, especially starship
ones, and I don't think it's because they use vaccuum tubes (thbbbbbt!
Eris! (in-joke)). 

There have been several suggestions that truly advanced computers are
already self-configuring, in fact, examples of self-configuring circuits
exist today. Virus chips aren't taking over the whole system as much as
taking over the control system and using the computers own
self-configurability against itself.

Objections against 'e-mailing computer viruses' overlook the convenient
fact that today, on my very own system, that can be accomplished. (Hint:
configure netscape or your e-mailer to recognize and open MS Word
documents when presented with such. Whammo...you just got a macro-virus by
opening an e-mail. Good Times anyone??? There have been a number of bugs
in MS's Direct-X's architecture that allow manipulation of the local
computer based on simple data transmissions. I watched one of our guys
open MS Exploder, go to the web site, and watched as the web page code
caused his computer to open notepad, insert text, save the file, close it
and create a shortcut to the file on his desktop. All done with data...no
physical contact at all.

> Secondly, Signal GK starts in 075-1110 and involves a minimum of 9
jumps. At
> the very best the Imperium could not have even become aware of the existance
> of the Cymbeline Chips until late 1110, more likely early 1111. Now the
> Imperium is supposed to have developed the transponder chips and then
> produced them in sufficent quantities to have them installed in virtually
> every single Imperial ship by 1127 remembering that in 1116 the minor
> inconvience of the Rebellion occured. 

That's only a bit harder to deal with and involves one minor handwave. SM,
p69 says: 

"Imperial science was aware of the possibility of inorganic
microchip intelligence before its discovery on Cymbeline in 1067. The fact
that the existence of the intelligent chips remained a secret until Dr.
Arnold Rushorin's (Central NPC in SGK) heavily expurgated paper was
allowed to be published in 1114 is a measure of the importance that the
Imperial government placed on these creatures. Even before they were
discovered they were chosen to be the ultimate solution to the Imperium's
IFF problem. However, the creation of such sircuits, though theoretically
predicted, proved impossible until living examples were found that could
be studied, and most importantly, allowed to reproduce." 

(Here comes the handwave, folks)

The discrepancy between SGK and SM can pretty easily be explained away by
stating that the dates in SGK are when the _PC's and Dr.  Rushorin_
discover the Cymbeline Chips. The Imperium had retaken Cymbeline over a
hundred years before,during the Solomani Rim War. There's no reason that
the Imperial Intelligence Services could not have discovered the Chips in
that time, as I'm sure they scoured ALL the planets retaken form the
Solomani for intel. However, Cymbeline is still close to the volatile
Solomani:Imperial border, and the presence of intensive Imperial research
on Cymbeline would have clued the Solomani into the fact that there was
something _very_ important there, so they probably took a bunch of samples
to one of their research stations, (Research station Omicron, in Core,
perhaps (SM, p. 72);-) and left the planet alone, making periodic covert
collections of more wild samples. Were I in charge, that's how I would
have done it. 

The contribution that Dr. Rushorin's work made to their effort was most
likely the realization (a simple conceptual leap that perhaps no one had
made) that the Chips could use premade Imperial circuitry as substrates
for their evolution. Remember the 10987 Chip in SGK is a natural
Chip that found a crashed Solomani starship and incorporated a pre-made
'processor in a signal generator' (SGK, The Biology of Natural
Chips, P.45). This is _very_ important...that 10987 is based on a digital
signal processor. 

When an example of 10987 (or likely, poor old 10987 itself) was taken over
by a 'remote infector' strain, more than likely the resultant chip became
MUCH better at infecting other chips remotely. The fact that 10987 was
based on a constructed microchip, led, IMHO directly to the Virus concept
in the Imperial research station Omicron. 

Remember, these things evolve at a frightening rate, and their evolution
was _directed_ by the research staff. This makes Virus much more
believable...they were TRYING to make a chip that could do everything that
Virus did. What they failed to realize was that their frightening rate of
evolution did NOT stop, but continued, once they had made Virus. Or
perhaps they did...several researchers tried to warn the Imperium at large
and were killed by Lucan's agents (SM P 61, TNS entry Khirar/Ilelish dated
121-1129). That's why Lucan still hadn't deployed his secret
weapon...they'd found there was no way to control it.  Research Station
Omicron must have been an _interesting_ place to be during those times. 

Hmmm...I feel an adventure coming on...

As I've said before, SM, IMHO, is the best pure background
sourcebook GDW ever made. There is such a wealth of information buried in
it that makes piecing together details through meta-analysis of that and
other material (25 cent word meaning 'reading between the lines' ;-)
relatively easy. That, I think was the rationale behind the TNS stuff all
along, and if IG would simply get off their butts and start producing JTAS
on a regular basis, we could have a resource like that for T4.

Or maybe BITS...101 News Articles, anyone? ;-)

Bruce Johnson
University of Arizona
College of Pharmacy
Information Technology Group

Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 10:26:05 -0800
From: Richard Hough <rdhough@orca.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism

>Where did the technological conservatism in the Traveller universe start, and
>why is it that some forms of handwaving are acceptable and unchallenged, while
>anything new is scrutinized under a magnifying glass and often discarded?

For many people, the attraction of Traveller is its setting and not the
gee-whiz technology. Technology is more than just a new way of doing the
same old thing, it has social consequences. Think of the effect the
gasoline engine or electric power has had on our civilization.

The trouble is that Traveller's society has already been well defined.
Adding new technologies that would change that society would make the Third
Imperium setting inconsistent and harm enjoyment of the game. This is why
some handwaves, like gravitic focussing, that support and explain the game
mechanics are eagerly accepted while other ideas, like FTL radio, are
rejected. Gravitic focussing makes lasers actually behave the way they have
long been portrayed in the game. FTL radio would invalidate the social and
military history of the Third Imperium.

>Some examples:  reactionless drives.  jump drives.  If we can suspend our
>disbelief to cover these things (one seems to violate the laws of physics, the
>other circumvents them nicely) how come artificial intelligence,
>teleportation, genetic engineering, cybernetics and nanotech all seem to be
>completely taboo?

The suspension of disbelief is not technological, it is social. I can
easily believe in a game setting where teleportation is cheap and
commonplace. What I cannot believe is a game setting where teleportation is
cheap and commonplace, yet everyone uses air/rafts, grav APCs and cargo
lifters to travel anywhere.  It's easy to postulate neat new future
technologies. What's not easy is predicting the consequences of these
technologies and integrating it into an existing setting.

>It seems like Traveller fans are unwilling to try to project too far into the
>future and can only come up with improvements on today's technology.  It was
>refreshing to see the TL16 weapons in the Emperor's Arsenal, weapons that were
>more or less "non-canon".  I like the Anti-matter/Contragrav gun for example.
>But these ideas in the Traveller universe are few and far between.

I don't think anyone on this list is short on imagination. What they are
short on is the background knowledge of Traveler to make their brainstorm
fit into canon, and the authority to have those ideas made official. There
are many who have one but not the other, so we get great stuff like Famille
Spofulam which is not part of the "official" future history, and
abominations like a TL 15 Rule of Man which is (but not in my campaign).

- --
Richard Hough
rdhough@orca.bc.ca

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 13:50:38 -0600 (CST)
From: ccguy@showme.missouri.edu
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, SemoFetus wrote:

> There's a TL boom in more than just computer tech.  Computer technology i=
s
> enabling technology.  Computers allow developments in other disciplines t=
o
> come much more rapidly.  Electronics, materials, chemistry, medicine, etc=
=2E  I
> don't think that there is one discipline that hasn't been completely chan=
ged
> by computers and the introduction of computerization.
>=20

When we talk about the technological singularity that Vinge predicts,=20
we should remember that it is just a hypothesis - even if the US=20
military is using it as a planning device (forgot where I read that).=20
We might hit a wall with the speed of computing or miniturization before=20
then, but that doesn't mean that new kinds of programs might not=20
develop or that some other change, say in the way computers
communicate with each other might result in important changes. By the=20
same token it is concievable that the changes on the other side of=20
the singularity will be all that great - we assume that they will=20
be, but the nature of the singularity is that we can't see what is on=20
the other side - it could be only a slight modification of what=20
is on this side.

>=20
> >But there=B4s another way to explain the tech conservativity, which I th=
ink is=20
> >logical. Remember the feudal system which holds the Imperium together.=
=20
> >What would happen if any world would let free to improve their own tech=
=20
> >uncontrolled? Every world in the end would develop their own standards,=
=20
> >based on their theories and how they=B4ve found them. They would end wit=
h=20
> >the problem that no neighbouring worlds could even fit their light bulbs=
=20
> >into one other=B4s socket! (Oh yes, I=B4m overstating a little bit ...)
>=20
> This logic can only be pushed so far before it breaks down.  I'm sitting =
here
> looking at my old fashioned Traveller book and looking at the two page te=
ch
> level spread right now.  From about, what, late TL5 through to today (thr=
ee
> tech levels) there have been no major problems interfacing devices of var=
ying
> tech levels with each other.  Yes, people make different connectors, and
> sockets, etc.  They will also speak differently languages, and eat differ=
ent
> foods, and so on.
>=20

What about using lack of standardization as a plot device. Say someone's
laser can't be recharged on the current world, or maybe the players=20
have to find a rare kind of computer specialist to convert some critical
data to a format they can use.

Guy Wilson

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 16:17:54 -0500
From: dukedrake@earthlink.net
Subject: Tiny particles = tiny weapons

Kenji Schwarz wrote:

> Ian wrote:
>
> >To : Uncie Hengie
> >
> >>From : Diiiiiitziieeeee
> >
> >Re : the teeeeensy bay-beeeee particle warticle gun
> >Each shot takes a one point fiiiive kilo battery pack, which has enough
> >juice juice juice for one shot, which takes one second.
>
> I'm wondering -- is there a reason one can't use a fusion-plus unit instead
> of lugging big old batteries around?

For that matter, it seems possible (at, say, TL15) to make a continuous output
(or VRF) CPAW with a very small toroidal tunnel, such that the torus, a fusion
plus power supply, and it's cooling system (perhaps using the fuel as coolant)
can fit into a cylinder measuring 0.05m W by 0.20-0.25cm L. It's effective range
wouldn't have to exceed .05km, so no beam pointer would be necessary, and the
tunnel aperature could be quite small indeed. The output energy (even at 10
laps) is still high enough to make it an effective anti-personnel weapon.

Keychain light sabers, anyone?

There doesn't appear to be any regulation of ROF for toroidal PAW's, nor does
there seem to be a minimum size for the tunnel. Input power is the only real
limiting factor on how much you can crank out of these micro-toroids. Given the
power outputs of very small power supplies at higher TL's, why haven't CPAW's
replaced CSlug small arms completely?

Or did I miss something obvious?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 11:25:28 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: re: Relativistic rock shields

bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh) wrote:

>I don't think you need the shell to be out at 100 diameters. The Earth's
>atmosphere is sufficiently opaque to X-rays that they won't be a problem; I
>think it would be similarly opaque to slow neutrons. You don't even need to
>slow down the rock's protons and electrons to harmless energies; if you
>convert a solid rock into a expanding cloud of vapour/plasma the vapour/plasma
>won't make it through the atmosphere either. So you probably don't need
>0.1 gm/cm^2 either - just one grain big enough to vapourize the rock per
>rock-surface-area-unit.

As the vapour cools off would you end up with a fine layer of particles in
the upper atmosphere, reducing the solar input to the environment?

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 14:49:18 -0800 (PST)
From: Craig Berry <cberry@cinenet.net>
Subject: Indistinguishable from magic

Semo wrote:

> I can see what you mean to some extent, but doesn't hold up as to why it
> would be difficult to play while postulating the future based on
> real-life advances in science. 

The problem is that new technology is *pervasive*, and if you
realistically portrayed millennia of future progress at anything like
current rates, you'd arrive at a world in which 20-cen players would be
*unable* to realistically describe the simplest actions of their
characters without a years-long course in the new assumptions.

As a thought experiment, let's drop a far-future RPG into 1-cen Rome, set
in 20-cen America.  You (as GM) let the characters, in Los Angeles,
discover some sensitive information that they need to communicate to a
colleague in New York.

GM:   OK, the message says "The attack will occur tomorrow at dawn."

Player 1:  Jove's curses!  There's no way to warn Marcus in time.

Player 2:  Yes, perhaps we can arrive in time to recover his body.

GM:   Um, oh, forgot to mention, there's a thing called a "telephone,"
      you could contact him right now.

P1:   Splendid!  Where is it housed, and how well is it guarded?

GM:   Ah, er, they're eveywhere, and near enough to free.

P2:   Great Mars!  Why haven't we noticed them before?

GM:   You have.  You've used them every day, since childhood.

P1:   [rolling eyes] I see.  Very well, we will next need to reach
      the Consulate --

GM:   City Hall.

P1:   As you say...how many miles distant?

GM:   About 20.

P2:   A good march.  I will pack a meal for our journey...we should reach
      the place by nightfall.  If not, we can camp along the road...
      we shall bring bedrolls.

GM:   Um, you needn't walk...there are 'cars' and buses' and 'light
      rail' that could get you there in about an hour, and...hey!
      Where are you guys going?

If the world gets too weird relative to the players' own world, the
simplest assumptions about how things work will fail.  This leads to
massive confusion, and to the GM having to correct everything the players
try to do.  This doesn't make for a fun game.

Traveller intentionally 'freezes out' advanced cybernetics, nanotech, most
biotech, and so forth simply because any of these taken to its logical
conclusion unrecognizably transforms daily life.  Even the technologies
that *are* let in -- four-forces control, FTL -- aren't pushed to their
logical conclusions.  Traveller is a compromise between extrapolation and
comprehensibility, and leans heavily toward the latter, as it must to
succeed as a game.

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------
   |   Craig Berry - cberry@cinenet.net
 --*--    Home Page: http://www.cinenet.net/users/cberry/home.html
   |      Member of The HTML Writers Guild: http://www.hwg.org/   
       "Every man and every woman is a star."

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 00:17:12
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Technology event horizons

A couple of years ago, I played in a SF game, John Hughes' convention game
Rites of Passage that dealth with nanotech, cyberware, brain reprogramming,
virtual reality and so on.

It was really really good, but a totally and completely unplayable from a
campaign viewpoint.

If you assume cyberware, how do you limit players buying hardwired skills
as and when needed ? Rites of Passage was played inside the "glass walls"
of a six-person starship, so that wasnt a problem. But if we wanted to go
onto a planet, then yes we would as a matter of course been linked into the
ship's computer, and known everything known about the planet (of course,
"we" could also have gone there via a VR/drone link ... the idea of
actually going somewhere in the Flesh ... how ... romantically unsafe. The
fact I am finding the idea attractive indicates that I was less successful
than I had thought in my last Balancing). The entire concept of character
generation becomes odd, as players reinvent themselves essentially at will.

If you assume geneeering, then combat becomes a game for tailored viruses.
Any "adventurers" will take the nth degree of precautions, because a virus
will most assuredly be tailored for them.

If you assume the nth degree of bo-mo, then any structure based on personal
relationships (as the Imperium is, with it's Emperor, Sector Dukes and so
on down the line) will collapse, because you have no simple way of ensuring
that the person you are dealing with is in fact that person - Megatraveller
made tentative steps to explore this with the issue of Real Strephon.
Unless your expert system interrogates their expert system about background
facts. Possible I suppose, but not much of a game (unless of course you
want to play semi-autonomous blocks of code ... hmmmm, the players play
someone's VR Agents ... hmmmmm).

"Starport" is an odd concept in and of itself once you assume reactionless
drives and a data net. As is grav car I guess ... once you can download a
Flying program into your datajack, I'd guess you'd just nanoengineer your
skin into being a flying wing wih anti-gravity units.

My guess is that once t-plates come along "starports" are a figment of
Imperial Extrality laws - they are solely somewhere you land in order to
clear customs, if you havent already done so on the trip in.

My call is that cyberware, geneering etc all happened in Traveller history,
during the Rule of Man. And the Solomani Empire fragmented, as it's peoples
became more and more unlike themselves, and the long-duration patterns of a
stable interstellar society were shattered to fragments by the dancing wild
horse of technology.

The next Empire realised that the horse of technology needed to be broken
to harness, so that it was slower but infinitly safer.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 00:13:23 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Virus -- That wasn't the way it was!

On Fri, 5 Dec 1997 21:13:54 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Fri, 05 Dec 1997 18:36:06 -0600
>From: Me as a regular user <markn@wavefront.com>
>Subject: Re: Virus -- That wasn't the way it was!
>
>I hated the Virus idea.  Maybe not as much some here.  But I do have to
>take issue 
>with this argument:
>
>> Sure, assuming (the completely ridiculous) idea that all ships transponders work
>> in the way that they are claimed to do, then it is possible that the
>> transponders could infect the main computers. The perfect defence, however,
>> would remain as I have stated -- disconnect the transponder and power down the
>> main computers, then reboot with clean, read only, media. A major hiccough, but
>> not civilisation destroying.
>
>Sure your read-only media would be clean, but what about what reads that
>medea?
>By you own argument here, you've stated that the MAIN COMPUTER is
>INFECTed 
>(caps to emphisize what was stated).  

Yes, BUT, I've also noted that you (CAPS to emphasise what was stated) POWER
DOWN THE MAIN COMPUTERS. Now, in current computer systems, powering down the
computer means wiping all RAM based stuff. By extension, if there is some sort
of stable power-down protected RAM type memory in the system, a "power down" in
that context will involve doing what is necessary to wipe *it* ... up to and
including replacement of said memory.

In other words, for all computer systems there will be some way of wiping a
corruption of the programming in RAM and replacing it with uncorrupted ROM based
backup media. Just as there is now. The procedures may be different in detail,
but the intent will be the same. And, with AI or pseudo-AI computers, there is
no way on earth that anyone can convince me that a sane computer
designer/programmer will *NOT* have such a procedure "just in case."

>I personally can't accept the argument to this point, but if I could
>make the
>leap to this point, I would have to regard that defense ineffective.
>
>Mark (remembering  a small dos network repeatedly dieing some 10 years
>ago
>	from a virus (little v at that))

Then you weren't doing what I have suggested. I've had to reformat my hard drive
and reload everything from CD-ROM several times because of glitches (tho not
viruses) with WIN95 ... and, until the next glitch (usually months down the
track and completely unrelated), it works perfectly. A Virus that corrupted
things simply cannot survive such a procedure ... unless it happens to actually
be *on* the CD-ROM. However, Virus did not work this way.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2152
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Multi-Player Games Network http://www.mpgn.com
Traveller-digest      Sunday, December 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2153



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Uncie Hengie, it's reaaaaaady
Re: Technological conservatism.
re: Behemoth class BB
[T97#2147] What is Virus?
_Travelling Aliens_: The Movie
Re: Technology event horizons
Re: Behemoth class Dreadnaught
Traveller ships
Re: Technological conservatism
Re: Tiny particles = tiny weapons
Re: Virus -- That wasn't the way it was!
Re: Indistinguishable from magic
Re: Indistinguishable from magic
Auction updated, end date announced
Re: Biologic Components : Care and Feeding
Re: Indistinguishable from magic
Baby PAWs

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 18:08:29 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: Uncie Hengie, it's reaaaaaady

Ian Whitchurch wrote:

>
>To : Uncie Hengie
>
>>From : Diiiiiitziieeeee
>
>Re : the teeeeensy bay-beeeee particle warticle gun
>
>Unciiiieee,
>
>Sowwy sowwy sowwwy this took sooooo long. Things were biiiiiiiizzzzy in
>compliiiance and weeeeee ran out of the liiiiitttlle yelllloooowwww pills
>pills pills and were verrrry saaaaad.
>
>But it's ready ready ready.
[snip]



	I now have a very visceral understanding of the term "oh my god,
we've created a monster" :).

	I also think I may have to start writing Hengabar as being somewhat
less sane than he is, if Ditzie is a typical Spofulam :).

	Poor Legal.  They can't be getting paid enough :).


>***************************************************************************
>
>Scary stuff isnt it. Knocks a PGMP into a cocked hat :) 22 dice damage :)


	Indeed.  Uncle Hengie would be proud.  Do you have any objections
to me adding this (with proper attribution of credit of course) to the
Spofulam archive I'm going to send out RSN?



Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 16:54:29 -0800 (PST)
From: "John R. Snead" <jsnead@netcom.com>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:

>You talk about cybernetics. Well, try to envision a society where
>everyone can access any fact that is known merely by thinking about it.
>And can perform calculations that'd put a Cray to shame "in their
>head". Add in the sort of "expert system" software that'll go along
>with this, and you'll have a situation that *nobody* can play.
>
>How many adventures depend on the players having partial knowledge? 
>Or not being able to figure something out easily? Or being conned (true,
>an "enhanced" human could probably con another enhanced human, but 
>it'd be done in ways *we* can't imagine).

Actually this sounds like a fun game to me.  It wouldn't be Traveller, but
it would be playable.  It's rather like a more extreme version of the way
I'll run Blue Planet if I ever get around to it. 

How about for rules:  None of the PCs have knowledge skills, instead
everyone is assumed to know everything they want about any well known,
publicly accessible topic.  Everyone is an expert in history, math,
chemistry... Also, people may have some knowledge skills they picked up on
their own for use if they are ever "off-line". 

However, if you run into a new planet your computer won't know the
history.  The same is true for a planet which has been out of contact with
the Imperium for a century or more.  Some data will be hidden, classified,
or otherwise secret and so you'll still have to go and bug a room, listen
at the window, or break in and steal it.  Also, people creating codes may
have access to computers better than yours and so a code can still be
unbreakable w/o a key. 

If you run into an alien starship of unknown design all your vast
computerized knowledge will help, but your still dealing with unknown
controls and an unknown language, and I simply don't believe that we will
*ever* be able to build a "universal translator". 

This type of setting would be different form most games, but it honestly
sounds no harder to run than any other SF game.  Partial information is
easy, if its not on a publicly accessible database you don't know it. 
Adventures would have to be somewhat different, but I see that as an
interesting challenge, not as a problem or a limit. 


- -John Snead jsnead@netcom.com      

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 17:05:41 -0800
From: bmac@astro.ucla.edu (Bruce Alan Macintosh)
Subject: re: Behemoth class BB

>A comment about this design - my limiting factor in this design was not
>power or volume - it's area. When you start placing tons of weapons and
>big sensors, it eats up the volume fast (not to mention drives, power
>plant radiators, ECM, and hull masking). When all was said and done, I
>was under 4000m2 free space.

This is actually sort of what I expected to happen for big ships.

>I was sorely tempted to pick a needle airframe hull - sure, the idea of
>this thing being in an atmosphere is ludicrous...but the extra area from
>the wings would have been useful. I wanted to strap some battle riders
>to the outside, but I couldn't due to area.

>I'm not so sure that we can construct a battle-tender/battle-rider
>system...the Cleon carries 6 Admiral class BRs, right? That'll eat up a
>LOT of area. Maybe I'll try to do it...

Battle tenders won't need big sensor arrays, or big power plants, or
much thermal masking, which should help. Technology also helps;
at TL-15 the surface area for power plants gets a lot smaller.
I think TL-12 capital ships will tend to be in the tens of thousands
of tons range, not the hundreds of thousands.

Open frame hulls add more surface area (we might have an optional
rule letting them buy even more surface area for a increase in
hull price.) 

Bruce

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 01:36:55 GMT
From: jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com (Jeff Zeitlin)
Subject: [T97#2147] What is Virus?

On Fri, 5 Dec 1997 07:51:52 -0500, SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com>
wrote:

>>Speaking of future computer technology, did anyone see the article in =
New
>>Scientist (15/11/97) on the work to 'evolve' rather than design chips? =
Any
>>thoughts on how it will effect technology?

>In a similar vein, there was this guy who wrote computer code to do
>"something" and he decided he wanted to make it smaller.  What the code
>actually did is unimportant. =20
>So this guy wrote crazy software and turned the code into "artificial =
life"
>with certain rules.  After a certain amount of time the code would "die"=
 they
>could mate and produce offspring, and the offspring would have a chance =
of
>random mutation.  The mutation would make the code smaller.  The code =
would
>"die" quickly if it didn't do what the original code did.

There's actually a name for this - they're calling it "Genetic
Programming" now, although it's generally considered to be more
of a curiosity at this point in time than a serious development
tool.  By the Traveller era, though...

>What eventually happened was, after many iterations, the code became =ultra
>teeny, but still did what it was programmed to do.  He sponsored a =contest on
>the internet and alot of people tried to write a program that did the =same
>thing, only smaller, and nobody came close.

>This is in the book _Out of Control_.  I forget the author's name off =the top
>of my head, but it is a fantastic book.  I can get the name of the =author if
>anyone would like.  The book deals with artificial life and robotics and
>various things like that.  Very good read.

PLEASE!  And include the ISBN as well.

>I think evolving chips is fantastic, and I think it could make the =computer
>industry grow even faster then it is now (what, my computer will be =obselete
>even quicker? :).

>As I've stated in another message, I think that Traveller tech is highly
>conservative in alot of respects.

Interestingly, 20+ years ago when Traveller was in Revision 1 or
less, this technique was unthought of, even as a SF idea.

- --
Jeff Zeitlin
jeff.zeitlin@mail.execnet.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 17:39:04 +0800
From: kenji@accessone.com (Kenji Schwarz)
Subject: _Travelling Aliens_: The Movie

I just saw _Alien: Ressurection_ -- or actually only the last 2/3 of it,
since the Office of Calendar Compliance has not extended authority over my
skull yet, and I got sorta confused about this whole daylight savings time
thing.  But never mind that.

The important part is that I realized how the this movie was actually
responsible for the collapse of the First Imperium and the depopulation of
Vilani-settled planets.  It wasn't Terran microorganisms that killed off
the Vilani; it was Terran _cinema_.  Those who didn't die of embarrasment
or shame at having seen it mostly chose to commit suicide rather than
suffer the horrific fate sure to follow conquest by a gang of psychotic
lower primates who glorify and mythologize their craving to capture aliens,
warp their genetic code, have sex with the results, and then kill them in
painful and messy ways.  Those Vilani who were left were the scum of the
Ziru Sirka, lacking in all aesthetic judgement and moral fibre;
accordingly, they were the most adaptively fit to existince in the Rule of
Man, and actually _enjoyed_ it.  They were able to breed with the Solomani
because their own genetic codes had been rewritten simply by viewing
captured Terran sci-fi materials.  Those that were turned into hamsters by
mistake were, naturally, killed and eaten by other Vilani, who as we all
know had to be cannibalistic due to the shortage of easily digestible
protein on their homeworld.

And besides, the Ziru Sirka really will have to tremble in awe and
trepidation in the face of a culture that produces films (that cost more
than the GDP of some small planets) all but genetically tailored to fit the
needs of 12-year-old straight Christian boys like a glove, and inculcate a
proper sense of values in them, and then includes scenes of a muscled and
enleathered Ripley slipping three fingers into Wynona Ryder's abdominal
cavity to try and make her "feel better" -- and getting white android
spooge on her fingers, for cryin' out loud -- in front of a three-story
solid-steel crucifix.  And I was the ONLY PERSON in the WHOLE GODDAMN
THEATER who was laughing my sick and filthy little mind off.  How could
anyone in their right mind NOT giggle like a loon?  Where oh where is this
civilization headed in the next century?  Where else but BARNARD'S STAR, TO
KICK SOME VILANI BUTT!  HOO-HAAH!

What an atrocious film... in a lackluster way.  Even the obligatory idiotic
closing dialogue barely got my stomach to roll over once.  But I really
disagree with the critics who keep saying that the possibilities of the
series have been exhausted, that there's nothing new that can be done with
it.

Pshaw.  I have good news for you all:  I am inspired to write the
screenplay for the next _Aliens_ film, which coincidentally shall also be
the first Traveller film (unless Kenneth beats me to it).  It'll be the
heartwarming story of Jones, the galaxy's oldest kitty-cat, and THWAP!, a
young and naive little facehugger, as they set off across the Third
Imperium in search of Mommy Ripley.  Golly, what an awfully big universe it
is now!  En route they get underfoot at Strephon's assassination, make
friends with Virus, engage in wacky hijinks with Vargr pirates and
mercantile shipping insurance regulators, rescue a planetload of innocent
little children from a nasty old near-C rock; clever old Jones uncovers
Archduuke Norris's "assistant" as a loathsome Templar, while THWAP! learns
that it's dreadfully impolite to shove your ovipositor down Yaskodray's
throat, etc.  Voice of Jones: Anthony Hopkins? Lynn Redgrave?  Voice of
THWAP!: The guy that did the original Ren & Stimpy voices, or John Cleese.
Cameo by Sigourney Weaver as the Empress (as in "the Empress Wave").  With
lotsa muscle and leather.  O yes.  Good wholesome family entertainment.  O
yes.

Gotta go get busy, 'specially if I'm going to have the Vilani dialogue _in_
Vilani.  'Later, all!

Kenji Schwarz
kenji@accessone.com
TravLang: <http://www.geocities.com/Area51/Chamber/2662/TLDL.html>

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 21:09:55 -0500
From: Scott Nolan <nolan@pop.erols.com>
Subject: Re: Technology event horizons

>A couple of years ago, I played in a SF game, John Hughes' convention game
>Rites of Passage that dealth with nanotech, cyberware, brain reprogramming,
>virtual reality and so on.

>
>It was really really good, but a totally and completely unplayable from a
>campaign viewpoint.
>

>If you assume cyberware, how do you limit players buying hardwired skills
>as and when needed ? Rites of Passage was played inside the "glass walls"
>of a six-person starship, so that wasnt a problem. But if we wanted to go
>onto a planet, then yes we would as a matter of course been linked into the
>ship's computer, and known everything known about the planet (of course,
>"we" could also have gone there via a VR/drone link ... the idea of
>actually going somewhere in the Flesh ... how ... romantically unsafe. The
>fact I am finding the idea attractive indicates that I was less successful
>than I had thought in my last Balancing). The entire concept of character
>generation becomes odd, as players reinvent themselves essentially at will.


[SNIP]


Well, one way is to remember that skills are more than just the knowledge associated with them.  You can have a master martial artist's memories, but if you don't have his reflexes, honed over decades of practice, you are going to have only a theoretical knowledge of the art, albeit a good one.  Likewise with piloting, diplomacy, or a host of other skills.  I 'know', in theory, how to juggle.  But I can't juggle because I've never practiced and I'm not terribly coordinated.


Moreover, what guarantee do you have that your implant contains -all- important info?  ("Aw shit, those robots must've been installed -after- my implants were written!  Lousy, no good discount piece of...").  Finally, that master martial artist may have created a wonderful program, but what do you want to bet he left out some unusual moves?  ("Your Kung Fu is very good.  But it is apparent that you know nothing of the Dragon's Wing technique.")


Scott

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And we are here as on a darkling plain

Swept with confused alarms of struggle and flight

Where ignorant armies clash by night.


	-Matthew Arnold, <italic>Dover Beach

</italic>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~	

Scott Nolan

nolan@erols.com

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 17:57:03 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Behemoth class Dreadnaught

On Fri, 5 Dec 1997, Andrew Akins wrote:

> A comment about this design - my limiting factor in this design was not
> power or volume - it's area. When you start placing tons of weapons and
> big sensors, it eats up the volume fast (not to mention drives, power
> plant radiators, ECM, and hull masking). When all was said and done, I
> was under 4000m2 free space.
> 
> I was sorely tempted to pick a needle airframe hull - sure, the idea of
> this thing being in an atmosphere is ludicrous...but the extra area from
> the wings would have been useful. I wanted to strap some battle riders
> to the outside, but I couldn't due to area.
> 
> I'm not so sure that we can construct a battle-tender/battle-rider
> system...the Cleon carries 6 Admiral class BRs, right? That'll eat up a
> LOT of area. Maybe I'll try to do it...

Most of the illustrations for BTs appearing in CT and TNE (but not MT) 
appear to include booms of some sort that the BRs ride attached to.
Regardless of configuration, it should be possible to increase the surface
area of a hull to an almost arbitrary degree:  just say "there are six
booms coming out the sides with docking rings for these battle riders and
they add N square meters to the hull surface area, but nothing to the
overall volume contained by the hull."  This will make the hull heavier,
and hence the ship slower, which can actually be viewed as a disadvantage
in design.  I don't know what the theoretical maximum surface area to
volume ratio is for any realistic hull, but it is probably very high.  The
volume can be kept constant while surface area changes by adding
convolutions to the geometric shape of the hull (these can be slight, such
as a flattening or narrowing, phlanges, etc.). 

In summary, I think that it is logical to assume that the surface area
rules are intended to provided a minimum requirement, not a maximum
allowance.  If we include the possibility of mounting some systems on
external trestles or other superstructures of some sort, there may not
even be any kind of maximum surface area, as long as you keep adding on
that hull mass.

> I think I'll try to recreate the BT/BRs detailed in Spinward Marches
> Campaign

Sounds great!  I'd love to see them!


Clark

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 19:25:19 -0800
From: "Dale McKee" <dalemckee@worldnet.att.net>
Subject: Traveller ships

Hello,

I'm new to the list, so I thought I'd say "hi" and also ask a few questions
of the group at large out there.  I just started running a T4 campaign
after not playing Traveller for 13 years.  I have gotten a handle on the
new system somewhat, although I am still struggling through starship design
using FFS (I'm an artist, not a math major).

Anyways, the military ships in "Starships" included a 2,000 ton Frontier
Cruiser and a 1,000 ton Destroyer.  So what I'd like to know is, in the
"Milieu 0" Third Imperium setting, how big is a Heavy Cruiser?  A
Dreadnought?  A Frigate?  How large would a standard Carrier be and how
many fighters would it carry?  Is there anywhere I can find stats for these
ships for T4?

I had thought Starships would allow for the creation of larger vessels, but
I guess FFS is it...

Peace,
Dale
dalemckee@worldnet.att.net

"In every revolution, there's one man with a vision."
                                       ---James T. Kirk, "Mirror, Mirror"

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 20:22:48 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism

>The suspension of disbelief is not technological, it is social. I can
>easily believe in a game setting where teleportation is cheap and
>commonplace. What I cannot believe is a game setting where teleportation is
>cheap and commonplace, yet everyone uses air/rafts, grav APCs and cargo
>lifters to travel anywhere.  It's easy to postulate neat new future
>technologies. What's not easy is predicting the consequences of these
>technologies and integrating it into an existing setting.
>
>


Well in Larry Niven's books, they use Telebooths and stepping discs for
transportation, in a society where teleportation is cheap and commonplace.

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 20:30:50 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Tiny particles = tiny weapons

At 04:17 PM 12/6/97 -0500, you wrote:
>
>Keychain light sabers, anyone?
>
>There doesn't appear to be any regulation of ROF for toroidal PAW's, nor does
>there seem to be a minimum size for the tunnel. Input power is the only real
>limiting factor on how much you can crank out of these micro-toroids.
Given the
>power outputs of very small power supplies at higher TL's, why haven't CPAW's
>replaced CSlug small arms completely?
>
>Or did I miss something obvious?
>
>
>

How about miniturized componants, each slightly out of 'phase' with each
other, but still working together as a unit?  Hypothetically, many
componants may occupy the same spatial coordinates but are separated
dimensionally.  This would allow for intense miniturization of power
sources and weapons.

What do you all think?

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 21:45:22 -0700
From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
Subject: Re: Virus -- That wasn't the way it was!

At 12:13 am 12/7/97 GMT, you wrote:
>In other words, for all computer systems there will be some way of wiping a
>corruption of the programming in RAM and replacing it with uncorrupted ROM based
>backup media. Just as there is now. The procedures may be different in detail,
>but the intent will be the same. And, with AI or pseudo-AI computers, there is
>no way on earth that anyone can convince me that a sane computer
>designer/programmer will *NOT* have such a procedure "just in case."

	So by your definition the programmers who work wonders with
programmable realtime systems aboard satellites are not sane?
This is an environment where a stray particle can trigger your
powerdown and hence wipe all control code. Goodbye, $1.5B Milstar
communications satellite. Oh, wait, we use insane programmers, so
there's _always_ code on the satellite ... Sorry, even nowadays
your fundamental assumption is wrong.

	Oh, and all those moronic notebook computer designers are crazy,
too, because even the ROM in those machines is EEPROM or Flash
ROM, which can be changed under software control.

- -- Dave Golden                  http://www.pcisys.net/~goldendj
- --
   goldendj@pcisys.net                       finger for PGP key
    *** USE OF THE ABOVE EMAIL FOR SOLICITATION PROHIBITED ***

 "He that would make his own liberty secure must guard even his
  enemy from oppression; for if he violates this duty, he
establishes
  a precedent that will reach to himself" -- Thomas Paine

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 21:07:45 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Indistinguishable from magic

>If the world gets too weird relative to the players' own world, the
>simplest assumptions about how things work will fail.  This leads to
>massive confusion, and to the GM having to correct everything the players
>try to do.  This doesn't make for a fun game.
>
>Traveller intentionally 'freezes out' advanced cybernetics, nanotech, most
>biotech, and so forth simply because any of these taken to its logical
>conclusion unrecognizably transforms daily life.  Even the technologies
>that *are* let in -- four-forces control, FTL -- aren't pushed to their
>logical conclusions.  Traveller is a compromise between extrapolation and
>comprehensibility, and leans heavily toward the latter, as it must to
>succeed as a game.
>
>

You make a very good point, Craig, and in an entertaining way, however you
are overlooking the fact that the GM is just as tech-tied as the players;
in effect, he cannot provide them with a "If the world gets too weird
relative to the players' own world" type of scenario, because at that point
it will also be too wierd for the GM to understand.  The assumptions and
imagination used for 'futuristic' scenarios will be created on established
and recognizable thought-processes that the players themselves have and use.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 00:11:00 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Indistinguishable from magic

Craig Berry writes:

>If the world gets too weird relative to the players' own world, the
>simplest assumptions about how things work will fail.  This leads to
>massive confusion, and to the GM having to correct everything the players
>try to do.  This doesn't make for a fun game.

   Agreed.  This is why it is difficult to bring new players into a
Traveller game--even in New Era there are a great number of things that
have to be explained to players so that they don't feel left out of
conversations involving older players.

Player 1: "So basically you're saying this thing looks kind of like a
Vargr with longer fangs, right?"

Ref: "Exactly."

Player 4: "Oh crap, we don't need this right now!"

Player 3: "It could be worse, they could resemble K'kree."

Player 4: "That's not funny."

Player 2: "What's a Vargr?"

Player 1: "They look like dogs except that they are intelligent and walk
up right."

Player 3: "Yeah, here's a picture of one." (holds up Vargr Alien Module)

Player 2: "Oh, OK.  So what's a K'kree?"

>Traveller intentionally 'freezes out' advanced cybernetics, nanotech, most
>biotech, and so forth simply because any of these taken to its logical
>conclusion unrecognizably transforms daily life.  Even the technologies
>that *are* let in -- four-forces control, FTL -- aren't pushed to their
>logical conclusions.  Traveller is a compromise between extrapolation and
>comprehensibility, and leans heavily toward the latter, as it must to
>succeed as a game.

   This explains why Star Trek (which dealt with each of these topics)
is such a miserable failure.  I'm sure the next ST:NG movie will only
gross around 200 million--truly pathetic.  I'm surprised they even still
keep making them.

   As long as writers (and referees) exhibit some self control, I have
no problem with any of the above concepts being used in Traveller.  The
idea of "biological robots" as presented in Clarke's "3001" seemed so
Solomani I'm surprised that someone didn't ask Bowman what his standing
was in the Party.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 00:18:11 -0500
From: Craig Janssen <daili@remove.me.gate.net>
Subject: Auction updated, end date announced

The auction has been updated.

Important notes: The auction will end on Saturday, the 13th of December at 12
midnight EST. Some of the buy out offers will take effect on Wednesday, the 10th
of December.

The url:

http://www.gate.net/~daili/auction.htm

Thanks,

Craig Janssen

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 13:51:31 -0800
From: Evyn MacDude <wmacdude@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Biologic Components : Care and Feeding

Peter H. Brenton wrote:

> Thank You for purchasing Bio-Pro Corp's Model B340 Biological Processer
> Array.  You've just bought the best bioprocessor CPU on the market and
> we're proud to welcome you into our "family".

 Dude, I can almost see the ad/manual in my head.

- --
Evyn,
Warleader of the Clan MacDude
Yuppie Hunter of the Forgotten Surf
 Fortalice Desertum
 AD. 1997

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 23:06:03 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Indistinguishable from magic

>   This explains why Star Trek (which dealt with each of these topics)
>is such a miserable failure.  I'm sure the next ST:NG movie will only
>gross around 200 million--truly pathetic.  I'm surprised they even still
>keep making them.
>


I don't find Star Trek a failure at all, and anxiously await the next
movie.  The only time star Trek ever let me down was when they allowed
William shatner to write/direct in one - Star Trek 5 : The Final Frontier.
Not only was that a joke, I was doing the MST3K stuff halfway thru it.
What a waste of money that one was.

As to your examples of aliens, (I'm an old timer, played Traveller since
1981), I would not have gotten the signifigance of your example either.  In
fact, a LOT of the stuff on this list makes little or no sense to me
because the most recent Traveller I've seen is MegaTraveller, and not all
of it.

I never even knew of the existance of the Classic Traveller "Alien" modules
and still have never seen one.  So I couldn't tell you a Hiver from a Vargr
from a K'Khree (spelling?).

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 07:29:17
From: Ian or Katts <ianw@orac.net.au>
Subject: Baby PAWs

Ditzie's in bed "recovering" from the all-nighter it took to get the Baby
PAW into production, so this isnt in character.

I went with batteries because our problem was peak power output - I needed
a quarter of a megawatt for a second, and that needed far too much Fusion
plus, and most of the power would be wasted. Some sort of battery/Fusion
plus setup might work, with the F+ unit refilling the batteries. Anyway,
you have anough batteries for ten minutes of sustained fire, and I think we
can argue if you cant hit whatever (and anything you hit with this baby is
either a tank or will stay hit), then you dont deserve to stay in the gene
pool.

I also have nasty thoughts about the heat output of F+, and what sort of
signature it puts off in a battlefield environment.

Now, someone suggested a continuous output CPAW light-sabre. The problem is
accumulators - you need ten times the lap energy in an accumulator, and net
efficiency is based on input energy times the square root of the number of
laps. Therefore you need at least 100 laps to be worthwhile. This tends to
chew up power awfully fast.

If we want Blaster Rifles, we need to start lobbying *now* for Marc to rule
that just like you can fire a Laser Weapon without a beam pointer, so you
can fire a particle accelerator without one, using the rules for sights and
stocks and such.

That 30 kilo beam pointer really makes even the Baby PAW a
battle-dress-only weapon.

Hmmm. A towed version, a bit bigger, with a 3km beam pointer and an
integral grav unit and a small F+ unit to power the battery pack could be a
really good force equaliser for non-BDE troops, and cost in the KCr70 range.

Now, I would also like to advise any prospective purchasers of the Baby PAW
that it still counts as a PAW under the various Imperial weapons
registration laws.

Next issue - point defense against kinetic energy projrctiles. What is the
smallest point defense radar/ladar you can get ? What TL do you need before
you can reliably stop 

- - a missile going at 1000 m/s ?

- - a KE shell going at 6000 m/s ?

My thinking is that whilst it is true KE projectiles are more efficient at
putting energy into a target, they are also vulnerable to counterfire in a
way lasers and PAWs are not.

So, Roderick, can I head up Famile Spofulam's Energy Weapons Section ???

Ditzie : Please please please please pleeeeeeeeeeezzzzzeeee. An an an an I
need a raiiiise so weeeee can buy Leeeeeegals a new caaaaar.

Ian Whitchurch

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2153
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Traveller-digest      Sunday, December 7 1997      Volume 1997 : Number 2154



(R)1996. Traveller is a registered trademark of FarFuture Enterprises.
All rights reserved.

The following topics are covered in this digest:

Re: Behemoth class Dreadnaught
Technological Conservatism
Re: Indistinguishable from magic
Re: Technology event horizons
Re: Near-C Rocks (Used to be:  Re: Virus and TNE)
Re: Technological conservatism.
Re: Technological conservatism.
>Subject: My Problems with the Virus
Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2153
Re: Behemoth class Dreadnaught
Re: Indistinguishable from magic
Re: Traveller ships
Re:_Travelling Aliens_: The Movie
Re: Indistinguishable from magic
Attention Famile Spofalum
Re: _Travelling Aliens_: The Movie

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 23:34:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Clark Crawford <crawford@ENGR.ORST.EDU>
Subject: Re: Behemoth class Dreadnaught

On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Clark Crawford wrote:

> as a flattening or narrowing, phlanges, etc.). 

Sorry, that should be "flanges" -- I meant to look it up and got
distracted, so I sent the mail to avoid forgetting it later.  My use of it
doesn't quite agree with the dictionary, but the general concept works --
some kind of ridge or convolution that adds area without adding volume --
like radiator fins for the power plant, or a tower for the sensors.

Haven't seen a rule saying that you can't add material to the hull for the
purpose of increasing its area -- it seems logical.


Clark

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 22:29:37 +1300
From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
Subject: Technological Conservatism

Why is Traveller so technologically conservative? I can remember a review
of Traveller from about 1979 which described Traveller's approach to
technology as being "Like those Victorian's who worried about what would
be done with all the horse excrement in the streets of London in the future"
So this 'problem' with Traveller has been around for awhile. I tend to
explain this in game terms.

Firstly if you start with the premis that the Imperium's culture is basically
Vilani you are a long way along the road to explaining it. The Vilani are
fundimentally technologically conservative. However one can also address
cybernetics and genetics directly.

Cybernetics: various sources from MT and late CT mention a widespread
anti-cybernetics prejudice throughout the Imperium (a quote from Margaret
"any being who is more than 25% machine should be regarded as one"). One is
left wondering just how this predujice came about, but it is there.

Genetic Engineering: here the Vilani nature of the Imperium comes into play.
It doesn't take much to imagine that the old Vilani prejudice which makes
biology and genetics poor second cousins twice removed to other more
respectable branches of science. However in the Solomani Sphere, Biomed tech
is both more advanced (apparently much more advanced) and a lot more
respectable. Looking in canon referrences you can find the following examples
of Solomani geneering: Dolphins, Scanians (aquatic humans), Oranutangs,
Miniphants, Chimps, the Eugenics Wars, terraforming (presumably using biotech)
etc. Plus late in MT there is evidence of one of Lucan's superweapons being
a retrovirus which turned humans into degenerate savages.

  Andrew etc.
    a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz
    http://users.netaccess.co.nz/amv/index.htm

****************************************************************************
The longest distance between two points is with children.
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 01:09:42 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Indistinguishable from magic

In mail you write:

>>If the world gets too weird relative to the players' own world, the
>>simplest assumptions about how things work will fail.  This leads to
>>massive confusion, and to the GM having to correct everything the players
>>try to do.  This doesn't make for a fun game.
>>
>>Traveller intentionally 'freezes out' advanced cybernetics, nanotech, most
>>biotech, and so forth simply because any of these taken to its logical
>>conclusion unrecognizably transforms daily life.  Even the technologies
>>that *are* let in -- four-forces control, FTL -- aren't pushed to their
>>logical conclusions.  Traveller is a compromise between extrapolation and
>>comprehensibility, and leans heavily toward the latter, as it must to
>>succeed as a game.
>
> You make a very good point, Craig, and in an entertaining way, however you
> are overlooking the fact that the GM is just as tech-tied as the players;
> in effect, he cannot provide them with a "If the world gets too weird
> relative to the players' own world" type of scenario, because at that point
> it will also be too wierd for the GM to understand.  The assumptions and
> imagination used for 'futuristic' scenarios will be created on established
> and recognizable thought-processes that the players themselves have and use.

But there you run into another problem. Sometimes the GM will see a
certain use of technology as "obvious", and the players will be
surprised by it. More often, it'll be a player who realizes that he can
do something with the tech that the GM hadn't thought of. And in both
cases, the problem is that if either of them could think of it, the
people in the game universe *definitely* thought of it.

So you have to figure out what the consequences of this neat idea
having "always" been around are. And usually, they mean that you have
to tear up big chunks of background. 
- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 00:14:27 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Technology event horizons

In mail you write:

> Well, one way is to remember that skills are more than just the
> knowledge associated with them.  You can have a master martial
> artist's memories, but if you don't have his reflexes, honed over
> decades of practice, you are going to have only a theoretical
> knowledge of the art, albeit a good one.  Likewise with piloting,
> diplomacy, or a host of other skills.  I 'know', in theory, how to
> juggle.  But I can't juggle because I've never practiced and I'm not
> terribly coordinated.

As I note in another message you have the problem of not having the
"muscle memory" (which includes reflexes). On the other hand, you'll
*know* what the moves *should* feel like. So rather than taking years
to master, things will take "mere" months, because in effect, you'll be
the same as a martial artist/juggler/whatever coming from a long period
of bed rest. Your muscles will need to be toned up, and the reflexes
moved from the brain to the spine. But that will go a lot faster than
trying to learn the skill without the implant.

> Moreover, what guarantee do you have that your implant contains -all-
> important info?  ("Aw shit, those robots must've been installed
> -after- my implants were written!  Lousy, no good discount piece
> of...").  Finally, that master martial artist may have created a
> wonderful program, but what do you want to bet he left out some
> unusual moves?  ("Your Kung Fu is very good.  But it is apparent that
> you know nothing of the Dragon's Wing technique.")

Or, as in several stories I've read, he may have programmed in a
response that lets him nail you by reacting inapropriately to something
totally off the wall.

Such "back doors" in skill sets could nail you bad. "Ah, he's using a
Samurai Sytems skill set. That means that if I thumb my nose while
making a kick, he'll make a counter that leaves him wide open..."

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 04:03:42 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Near-C Rocks (Used to be:  Re: Virus and TNE)

Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net> wrote:

>	To quote Ian Fleming, once is chance, twice is coincidence, three
>times is enemy action.  If somebody starts the task system thread up again,
>I'm gonna start getting real paranoid :).

Can anyone explain what this KBv2.0 is that I see people refering too? ;-)

<Duck and run. You can't hide from Famille Spofulam. You just need to keep
ahead...>

Dom

PS THIS IS NOT A SERIOUS QUESTION!

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 04:00:35 +0000
From: SD Mooney <dom@cybergoths.u-net.com>
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

SemoFetus <SemoFetus@aol.com> wrote:

>But, then, to be a devil's advocate:  reactionless thrusters break physical
>laws on a daily basis, and people _complained_ when someone put a more
>realistic system in with TNE.

I suspect the objection was that the preceding 15 years of Traveller
history with them was thrown away until FFS1 came out. (Okay, so I know
that High Guard 1st Ed had fusion engines).

And TNE never explained how the hot reaction mass was dealt with in station
docking bays... ;-)

Dom

- ------Dom Mooney---dom@cybergoths.u-net.com-------
"Omnia Mutantur Nihil Interit"  -  Sandman 'The Wake'
   "Everything Changes, but nothing is truly lost" 

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 Dec 1997 23:49:48 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Technological conservatism.

In mail you write:

> shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson) wrote:
>
>>You talk about cybernetics. Well, try to envision a society where
>>everyone can access any fact that is known merely by thinking about it.
>>And can perform calculations that'd put a Cray to shame "in their
>>head". Add in the sort of "expert system" software that'll go along
>>with this, and you'll have a situation that *nobody* can play.
>>
>>How many adventures depend on the players having partial knowledge? 
>>Or not being able to figure something out easily? Or being conned (true,
>>an "enhanced" human could probably con another enhanced human, but 
>>it'd be done in ways *we* can't imagine).
>
> Actually this sounds like a fun game to me.  It wouldn't be Traveller, but
> it would be playable.  It's rather like a more extreme version of the way
> I'll run Blue Planet if I ever get around to it. 
>
> How about for rules:  None of the PCs have knowledge skills, instead
> everyone is assumed to know everything they want about any well known,
> publicly accessible topic.  Everyone is an expert in history, math,
> chemistry... Also, people may have some knowledge skills they picked up on
> their own for use if they are ever "off-line". 

But also, any skill that doesn't require "muscle memory" will *also* be
available. It's not just *information* that'll be readily available.
It'll be "programs" for using the info. In short, "skills" and
"experience". 

> However, if you run into a new planet your computer won't know the
> history.  The same is true for a planet which has been out of contact with
> the Imperium for a century or more.  Some data will be hidden, classified,
> or otherwise secret and so you'll still have to go and bug a room, listen
> at the window, or break in and steal it.  Also, people creating codes may
> have access to computers better than yours and so a code can still be
> unbreakable w/o a key. 

Hidden or secret data will be a lot more obvious though. Much of the
"secret" data in this country can easily be reconstructed by someone
with the time and patience to wade thru all the *piublic* info on the
subject. 

While this mostly applies to scientific/technical info, it also applies
to a lot of other things. Sherlock Holmes won't even be in the same
*league* as the average citizen in such a society.

> If you run into an alien starship of unknown design all your vast
> computerized knowledge will help, but your still dealing with unknown
> controls and an unknown language, and I simply don't believe that we will
> *ever* be able to build a "universal translator". 

And have fun trying to figure out if the value of that
resistor/capacitor/whatever is what it is because it *has* to be to
work, or because it's a "standard" component thrown in because pretty
much any value will work. :-)

> This type of setting would be different form most games, but it honestly
> sounds no harder to run than any other SF game.  Partial information is
> easy, if its not on a publicly accessible database you don't know it. 
> Adventures would have to be somewhat different, but I see that as an
> interesting challenge, not as a problem or a limit. 

The *real* problem, which you missed is that players can't really play
a character that is *that* much smarter than the player is. It quits
being role-playing and becomes "roll-playing" as the GM keeps having to
figure out if the *character* would think of things that the player
hadn't. 

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:15:31 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: >Subject: My Problems with the Virus

On Sat, 6 Dec 1997 08:49:25 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 00:06:36 +1300
>From: Andrew Moffatt-Vallance <a.vallance@netaccess.co.nz>
>Subject: My Problems with the Virus
>
>Firstly, in Signal GK, the Chips reproduce by physically etching themselves
>onto others. From what I understand of the Virus, this property is how the
>Virus hardwires itself into a target computer. *However* in Signal GK the
>chips do this by using the corrosive volcanic gases in the Cymbeline
>atomosphere (presumably utilising electromagnatism). Now, I can't imagine
>there being too many suitable corrosive gases inside very many Imperial
>computers! So just how does the Virus physically write itself onto the target
>chip? I can see how the Virus can get it's data to the target, but just how
>does it hardwire itself onto the target?

And, of course, there's the "evolutionary" differences. What are the chances of
standard Imperial Computer chips being closely enough "related" to Cymbeline
chips for there to be any meaningful possibility of the Cymbeline chips being
able to even recognise them as mateable with? I'll tell you -- zip, nada, null,
zero, nought, zilch!

We argued this one to death over the ridiculous plague in TLWH/Gateway.

>Secondly, Signal GK starts in 075-1110 and involves a minimum of 9 jumps. At
>the very best the Imperium could not have even become aware of the existance
>of the Cymbeline Chips until late 1110, more likely early 1111. Now the
>Imperium is supposed to have developed the transponder chips and then
>produced them in sufficent quantities to have them installed in virtually
>every single Imperial ship by 1127 remembering that in 1116 the minor
>inconvience of the Rebellion occured. More than this, in this time, all the
>other major interstellar states also adopted them and installed them in
>virtually every single one of their ships. This incidentally includes the
>Solomani Confederation which has every reason to deliberately make its
>systems incompatible with those of the Imperium! So basically for the Virus
>to work, the chips need to be developed and installed in virtually every
>single starship operating in the Imperium over a period of just five years.
>Remember that it takes at least three to transmit a message from Terra to
>Regina. Sorry but that requires more than suspending disbelief.

Yes. There is *NO POSSIBILITY AT ALL* that any non-Imperial state would adopt
something just because the Imperium said it had to. The Imperium is a trade pact
more than anything else (as we are told over and over again) -- it is there to
maximise trade, not restrict it (well, it does restrict it in some ways, but
really only within the Imperium or for defence reasons -- and then only by not
selling High tech stuff to people it doesn't want getting it). To tell the Zhos,
Julian Consulate, K'Kree, Solomani, Aslan, Hivers etc. that the only way they
can trade with Imperial worlds is if they install this you beaut new transponder
system that broacasts *everything* about your ship *continually* to the Imperium
(making it an espionage/commercial espionage device so obvious that even the
Solomani will pick up on it!) would have caused such major diplomatic ructions
that I think we can safely say that there's more chance of agreeing that .1 C
rocks are a great idea for discussion on this list! Or, to put it another way, a
snowball has a better chance in hell than getting non-imperials to use what is
so obviously an imperial espionage device (of course, there is no believable or
logical *reason* for the system to work the way it is alleged to have, but
that's a different matter).

And I think we can assume that there is an equally close to zero chance that
non-Imperial systems will be compatible with imperial systems of any sort -- as
I note in my article on same in DS#2, its for defence reasons. If you invade a
non-imperial system (or vice versa) then you will find that all of its tech is
non-compatible with yours, and will have to be replaced, at huge cost, to make
the system a viable conquest. In fact, I would suspect that a great deal of
thought would go into making such replacement as difficult and time consuming as
possible.

As for the chances of the chips being distributed in the time allowed -- an
excellent point. However, I would go further, I suspect that we cannot assume
that there would *ever* be full compliance with the use of the chips -- and that
we cannot assume, as the system did, that you would "shoot on sight" any ship
that did not have a Cymbeline based transponder. This is, simply, ludicrous to
such an extreme that it beggars the imagination ... it means, for a start, that
any ship that suffers damage (from a pirate attack, or from some unexpected
shipboard mishap) that renders the Cymbeline transponder system inoperative will
be destroyed on sight. It means that worlds within the imperium that are under
Imperial ban because they have not yet developed starflight will have all their
ships destroyed when they *do*, and when they stumble onto the Imperium that
surrounds them. Either of these possibilities (and they are not the only ones)
make it so close to zero possibility that Cymbeline transponders will be
*assumed* to be universal (let alone the time problems of getting them adopted
before the Rebellion anyway) that it is not worth considering.

There will *always* be some form of traffic control option for ships not
equipped with Cymbeline transponders. To suggest otherwise flies in the face of
objective reality. And that, more than anything else, is my huge objection to
Virus -- so much of it flies in the face of objective reality that it makes a
mockery of the whole idea.

Look, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, a *software* based virus makes
more sense than a hardware based one ... and it would be achievable without much
trouble. There are Imperial standards and accords on computers and software, and
we can assume that there are (effectively) Imperially mandated (and hidden)
"backdoors" and points of vulnerability in all Imperial Software ... so
releasing multiple software viruses would have the same effect as Virus, and
everyone would be able to settle back and accept it.

Just as likely is the release of some human viral disease(s) intended (probably)
to be debilitating but controllable -- but which mutate in unexpected ways, and
which go incredibly lethal. With multiple releases over all areas that Lucan can
get to, and with a long enough incubation period, the effects would be
devastating. Decivilisation by catastrophe ... you kill enough of the techs and
and society collapses. In fact, if you think about it, you could have a *binary*
virus ... spread the two parts so that they can only come into contact as a
*result* of trade and travel. Nasty.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 13:27:23 GMT
From: aspqrz@curie.dialix.com.au (Phillip McGregor)
Subject: Re: Traveller-digest V1997 #2153

On Sun, 7 Dec 1997 02:25:23 -0500, you wrote:

>Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 21:45:22 -0700
>From: "David J. Golden" <goldendj@pcisys.net>
>Subject: Re: Virus -- That wasn't the way it was!
>
>At 12:13 am 12/7/97 GMT, you wrote:
>>In other words, for all computer systems there will be some way
>of wiping a
>>corruption of the programming in RAM and replacing it with
>uncorrupted ROM based
>>backup media. Just as there is now. The procedures may be
>different in detail,
>>but the intent will be the same. And, with AI or pseudo-AI
>computers, there is
>>no way on earth that anyone can convince me that a sane computer
>>designer/programmer will *NOT* have such a procedure "just in
>case."
>
>	So by your definition the programmers who work wonders with
>programmable realtime systems aboard satellites are not sane?
>This is an environment where a stray particle can trigger your
>powerdown and hence wipe all control code. Goodbye, $1.5B Milstar
>communications satellite. Oh, wait, we use insane programmers, so
>there's _always_ code on the satellite ... Sorry, even nowadays
>your fundamental assumption is wrong.

Well, I suppose it depends on whether you consider them computers or merely
computerised peripherals. Then, of course, there's nothing that they can do to
affect the ground based controller computer if the satellite dish is
disconnected (and the probably can't even if it is connected). Then, of course,
they have a destruct switch in the rocket which is meant to destroy the whole
shebang if the launch goes wrong. Does this self-destruct charge still exist and
is it still active on the orbiting satellite? Anyway, it doesn't matter because
these peripherals *can* be cut out of the main computer's circuit.

So, if you'd stop being so personal about it, you might see that there is a
perfectly reasonable explanation for it.

>	Oh, and all those moronic notebook computer designers are crazy,
>too, because even the ROM in those machines is EEPROM or Flash
>ROM, which can be changed under software control.

And, of course, if the EPROM is corrupted, what do you do? You power down the
system, crack the case, and replace the EPROM. You may even format the hard
drive first. And after you've done all this, then you reload the system from
CD-ROM. I'm sorry you seem to take it as some sort of personal attack -- it
isn't intended that way, it is merely intended to show that the whole idea of
Virus is a crock of you know what.

In fact, I'll go further -- the problem with Virus is the same problem GDW has
had with landing USL ships on atmosphere possessing planets. In short, while it
was a hard and fast rule for which there was no detailed explanation -- and
there was no detailed explanation of how the technology of the drives prevented
it, I don't think anyone had a problem with it. *HOWEVER*, once GDW gave a
bullshittium explanation of how the drives worked, then people looked at it and
said, "Err, why can't you land a USL ship on an atmosphere possessing planet?
The way the drive is said to work *by you* would indicate that it is eminently
possible!" In short, the more bullshittium they lay on, the more problems they
create for themselves ... often, quite simply, because they haven't thought the
implications of the ideas through, or, equally as often, because they simply
haven't thought of all the ramifications that the warped geniuses on the TML and
Tech ML can twist out of their statements! Just cool down, this isn't a personal
attack on you.

Phil
- ---------------------------------------------
Phillip McGregor | aspqrz@curie.dialix.oz.au
Co-designer, Space Opera (FGU)
Author, Rigger Black Book (FASA)
Designer, Standard Role Playing (PGD)

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 05:38:11 PST
From: shadow@krypton.rain.com (Leonard Erickson)
Subject: Re: Behemoth class Dreadnaught

In mail you write:

> On Sat, 6 Dec 1997, Clark Crawford wrote:
>
>> as a flattening or narrowing, phlanges, etc.). 
>
> Sorry, that should be "flanges" -- I meant to look it up and got
> distracted, so I sent the mail to avoid forgetting it later.  My use of it
> doesn't quite agree with the dictionary, but the general concept works --
> some kind of ridge or convolution that adds area without adding volume --
> like radiator fins for the power plant, or a tower for the sensors.
>
> Haven't seen a rule saying that you can't add material to the hull for the
> purpose of increasing its area -- it seems logical.

True, but it isn't as easy as you'd think. 

Since the hull is in a vacuum, that means that any added surface area
that can "see" any other area of the hull is *wasted* to the extent
that it sees the other part of the hull. This is because the radiated
heat would just get picked back up by that other part of the hull.

So the added area has to be things like "fins" running the length of
the hull (don't forget to count the area of *both* sides). But you
can't have more than 4 of them or you are back to the "facing each
other" problem.

- -- 
Leonard Erickson (aka Shadow)
 shadow@krypton.rain.com        <--preferred
leonard@qiclab.scn.rain.com     <--last resort

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 07:42:39 -0800
From: The J-Man <j-man@iname.com>
Subject: Re: Indistinguishable from magic

A>So you have to figure out what the consequences of this neat idea
>having "always" been around are. And usually, they mean that you have
>to tear up big chunks of background. 
>-- 
>
>

Thanks for the reply, Leonard.  This is why I use 'play-testing'.  It has
the benefit of ironing out little details like that, and fleshing out my
campaigns with extra detail and sub-plots, left by play-testor's player
characters.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 08:30:11 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Re: Traveller ships

At 07:25 PM 12/6/97 -0800, you wrote:

>I'm new to the list, so I thought I'd say "hi" and also ask a few questions
>of the group at large out there.  I just started running a T4 campaign
>after not playing Traveller for 13 years.  I have gotten a handle on the
>new system somewhat, although I am still struggling through starship design
>using FFS (I'm an artist, not a math major).
>
>Anyways, the military ships in "Starships" included a 2,000 ton Frontier
>Cruiser and a 1,000 ton Destroyer.  So what I'd like to know is, in the
>"Milieu 0" Third Imperium setting, how big is a Heavy Cruiser?  A
>Dreadnought?  A Frigate?  How large would a standard Carrier be and how
>many fighters would it carry?  Is there anywhere I can find stats for these
>ships for T4?

Not to toot my own horn, but..

There is a product just released called Imperial Squadrons.  In it, you'll
find a couple of big ships designed by your humble servant.  I put in a
Destroyer Escort, a Carrier, an Armored Cruiser, and my favorite, the
90,000ton Coronation-class Battleship.

At TL 12, cruisers run from about 10ktons to 60ktons.
Battleships/Dreadnoughts max out at about 90ktons.. there are problems with
surface area beyond that.
A Frigate would probaly be somewhere in the 5k-10kton range, depending on
mission requirements.

By the way.. a near-C cookie to the first person to figure out the joke
behind the name of the Bass Straight DE.  Craig already knows, so he's
diqualified.
- --

+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+
| Douglas E. Berry       dberry@hooked.net |
|      http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/      |
|------------------------------------------|
| "Writing is like prostitution. First you |
| do it for the love of it, then you do it |
| for a few friends, and finally you do it |
| for the money."               -- Moliere |
+~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~+


  

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:32:52 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re:_Travelling Aliens_: The Movie

Kenji Schwarz writes:

>I just saw _Alien: Ressurection_ -- or actually only the last 2/3 of it,
>since the Office of Calendar Compliance has not extended authority over my
>skull yet, and I got sorta confused about this whole daylight savings time
>thing.  But never mind that.

   Hard to review a movie that you only saw 2/3rds of, <sarcasm on> but
I'm glad that didn't deter you in anyway.  BTW, thanks for all the
unmarked plot spoilers, I'm sure it will increase my enjoyment of the
film. <sarcasm off>

>The important part is that I realized how the this movie was actually
>responsible for the collapse of the First Imperium and the depopulation of
>Vilani-settled planets.

   Funny, I would have thought it was "holier than thou"
pseudointellectual attitudes and an aversion to doing anything without
having over half your paycheck stolen away in taxes to pay for a
bureaucracy to tell you when to go to the bathroom.

>And besides, the Ziru Sirka really will have to tremble in awe and
>trepidation in the face of a culture that produces films (that cost more
>than the GDP of some small planets) all but genetically tailored to fit the
>needs of 12-year-old straight Christian boys like a glove, and inculcate a
>proper sense of values in them, and then includes scenes of a muscled and
>enleathered Ripley slipping three fingers into Wynona Ryder's abdominal
>cavity to try and make her "feel better" -- and getting white android
>spooge on her fingers, for cryin' out loud -- in front of a three-story
>solid-steel crucifix.

   Actually in the US 12 year old boys aren't allowed to see this film
without a parent or legal guardian.  Kinda hard to tailor a movie for an
audience that legally can't see it without mom and/or dad sitting in the
next seat, eh?

   BTW, I'd like to get Wynona Ryder's white android spooge on my
fingers any hour she's free...

   OK!  OK!  I know when I'm being hollered at by the TML mob!  I
retract that last line...

   So you say that Sigourney Weaver is really buffed and in leathers
huh?  Well now I might just have to pay double the admission price...

>  And I was the ONLY PERSON in the WHOLE GODDAMN
>THEATER who was laughing my sick and filthy little mind off.  How could
>anyone in their right mind NOT giggle like a loon?

   Apparently the film held your attention long enough for you not to
notice if anyone else was laughing.  That's one clue.

>Where oh where is this civilization headed in the next century?  Where 
>else but BARNARD'S STAR, TO KICK SOME VILANI BUTT!  HOO-HAAH!

   Film does not create civilization, it holds a mirror up to it.  Watch
the *whole* movie, and think about it in that context.  It's apparent
that you missed the point.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 11:50:50 -0500
From: "Harold D. Hale" <hdhale@siscom.net>
Subject: Re: Indistinguishable from magic

The J-Man writes:

>>   This explains why Star Trek (which dealt with each of these topics)
>>is such a miserable failure.  I'm sure the next ST:NG movie will only
>>gross around 200 million--truly pathetic.  I'm surprised they even still
>>keep making them.
>
>I don't find Star Trek a failure at all, and anxiously await the next
>movie.  The only time star Trek ever let me down was when they allowed
>William shatner to write/direct in one - Star Trek 5 : The Final Frontier.
>Not only was that a joke, I was doing the MST3K stuff halfway thru it.
>What a waste of money that one was.

   Sorry I should have perhaps issued a sarcasm alert.  My point was
that other sci-fi vehicles have dealt very successfully with those
supposed "taboo" topics in Traveller.  Traveller could include them as
optional items (a la FF&S I), making sure the referee as enough
"restrictive tools" so that sessions don't end up being "Borg Meets the
CyberNanites From Mars".

   BTW, that 200 million figure is probably low.

>As to your examples of aliens, (I'm an old timer, played Traveller since
>1981), I would not have gotten the signifigance of your example either.  In
>fact, a LOT of the stuff on this list makes little or no sense to me
>because the most recent Traveller I've seen is MegaTraveller, and not all
>of it.

   Point here was that it is difficult to run a game in which you have
to constantly step out of character in explain everything.  In the best
role playing sessions, you should feel the break in concentration when
the referee has to stop things for a moment to go to the bathroom, or a
player calls a stoppage to have something explained outside the game.

Regards,

Harold

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 07 Dec 1997 09:30:50 -0800
From: "Douglas E. Berry" <dberry@hooked.net>
Subject: Attention Famile Spofalum

From rec.arts.sf.science:

>>Rail Guns - modern, high tech electromagnetic needle gun.

>Railway Gun - Fires a locomotive and a couple dozen freight cars.
>              Very noisy and impressive; lots of recoil.




- --
+-------------------------------------+
| Douglas E. Berry  dberry@hooked.net |
|    http://www.hooked.net/~dberry/   |
+-------------------------------------+
| "Some days, you just can't get rid  |
|  of a bomb!"                        |
|     -Adam West, the REAL Batman     |
+-------------------------------------+

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 12:49:57 -0600
From: Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>
Subject: Re: _Travelling Aliens_: The Movie

Kenji wrote:

[snip]

>
>What an atrocious film... in a lackluster way.  Even the obligatory idiotic
>closing dialogue barely got my stomach to roll over once.  But I really
>disagree with the critics who keep saying that the possibilities of the
>series have been exhausted, that there's nothing new that can be done with
>it.

[snip]


	You know, I've always been a little disappointed by the direction
the series took after Aliens.  When you think about it, the Aliens are a
little too... tailored to prey on humanity than random natural selection in
separate ecologies should reasonably allow.  If you were setting out to
design a critter to deal with humans, it'd be hard to come up with better.

	Were I to have been writing the series, it would have turned up
that the critters were bioweapons to begin with...  some rather
non-confrontational but decidedly hostile ETs just cooked them up, left
them where humans would be sure to find them, and sat back to watch the
fireworks.


Roderick Darroch Elliott <rde@ican.net>

------------------------------

End of Traveller-digest V1997 #2154
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